Permanent Residency or Citizenship for Foreign Monastics in Thailand

[Nordlys]

How does one apply for PR or citizenship as a monastic in Thailand?  

 

I have a Japanese monk in a forest monastery in the mountainous region of southern Chiang Mai whose monastery's Thai abbot consulted me about applying PR for this Japanese monk as he recently turned 70 years old.  Obviously, as a renunciant he has no personal income and hasn't filed any personal income tax for the past 24 years in robe (during which time he has stayed in Thailand under Non-Immigrant R visa).  He speaks and writes excellent Thai and is in a leading position in the monastery to teach the sangha of both Thai and foreign monks at his monastery.  
 

Does the same requirement and 200 thousands baht cost apply for application as a foreign monastic?  

[jackdd]

Afaik it's not possible in his case

[ubonjoe]

As far as I know there is no special category for monks to apply for permanent residency or Thai nationality.

For permanent residency there is this category in a old doucment for permanent residency.

Quote

3.5 Qualification of applicant on extra circumstances to be considered on a case by case basis 1) An individual who produces benefit to the Kingdom of Thailand or Thai Government or was selected by a national institute as the one whose performance causes benefit to this country or perform for the authority and 2) Certified in a form of letter by at least departmental authority or governor or civilian official of at least level 10 or military officer who is holding a rank of General, Air Chief Marshal, Admiral, Police General or political official who is in the position of Minister, President of the National Assembly, Vice President of the National Assembly, President of the Senate or Vice President of the Senate or Committee of Non-Government Organization according to the constitutional laws. Detail of the applicant’s work is required to be furnished or,

It think the same fee for the residence certificate would be needed.

Immigration in Bangkok may be the only place that can answer you questions about residency.

[jomtienisgood]

On 11/15/2020 at 11:44 AM, ubonjoe said:

As far as I know there is no special category for monks to apply for permanent residency or Thai nationality.

For permanent residency there is this category in a old doucment for permanent residency.

It think the same fee for the residence certificate would be needed.

Immigration in Bangkok may be the only place that can answer you questions about residency.

Additional Q? Are the foreign nationality Monks subject to Visa regulations????

[ubonjoe]

33 minutes ago, jomtienisgood said:

Are the foreign nationality Monks subject to Visa regulations????

The have to enter with the correct visa and apply for extensions of stay.

[jomtienisgood]

4 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The have to enter with the correct visa and apply for extensions of stay.

Thanks for info. Didn't know.

[Wongkitlo]

40 minutes ago, jomtienisgood said:

Thanks for info. Didn't know.

I have been told by a monk that the Abbott can give them a letter  to take to immigration. 

[jomtienisgood]

8 minutes ago, Wongkitlo said:

I have been told by a monk that the Abbott can give them a letter  to take to immigration. 

Good info for my future life...

[Wongkitlo]

1 hour ago, jomtienisgood said:

Good info for my future life...

Which future life? The next one or the one after that...

[jomtienisgood]

40 minutes ago, Wongkitlo said:

Which future life? The next one or the one after that...

We'll see what and how many happen.. And awaiting the next life i'll go for the next beer.. At least that is a certainty.. lol

[Nordlys]

On 11/15/2020 at 11:44 AM, ubonjoe said:

As far as I know there is no special category for monks to apply for permanent residency or Thai nationality.

For permanent residency there is this category in a old doucment for permanent residency.

It think the same fee for the residence certificate would be needed.

Immigration in Bangkok may be the only place that can answer you questions about residency.

Hi Ubonjoe.  The abbot of the monastery was formerly an airman from Don Mueang air base in lay life. Couple of years ago the Air Marshal Chief of the Royal Air Force was the sponsor of Kathina at the monastery.  The abbot also claims to know the governor of Chiang Mai.  Any idea what the chance is for the application to be accepted if they can endorse or write letter of recommendation for the monk?  

Also by "immigration in Bangkok" do you mean Chaeng Watthana?  

[ubonjoe]

26 minutes ago, Nordlys said:

Any idea what the chance is for the application to be accepted if they can endorse or write letter of recommendation for the monk?

It could help.

 

27 minutes ago, Nordlys said:

Also by "immigration in Bangkok" do you mean Chaeng Watthana?  

Yes

That have a section just for permanent residency since that is about the viable place to the application now. The offices outside Bangkok will not accept the application.

[Nordlys]

I'll go to Chaeng Watthana next week to find out, thanks ubonjoe.  

I hear they usually accept application around December.  How do I know the date for this year's application and when the closing date is?  Do they make announcement anywhere online or should I go to Chaeng Watthana to find out?  

A bit off-topic question - I hear foreign monks have to leave Thailand and reapply Non-Imm R after five years in Thailand (reapplication or extension, I'm not entirely sure) - not a requirement imposed by immigration bureau but สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ (National Office of Buddhism) does not issue documents necessarily for extension of visa if monks don't leave, so I heard. 

Do you happen to know if this policy is still enforced at the time of pandemic and international travel restriction?  One of the foreign monks at the monastery will have to extend his visa for the 6th time next year and he's concerned he can not return to Thailand once he leaves.  We discussed this at immigration office in Chiang Mai last month and the officials there said there's no such requirement as far as immigration bureau is concerned.  But Nepalese monks we met there and other monks at the same monastery all said they had to leave after 5 years.  

[Nordlys]

On 11/15/2020 at 11:36 AM, jackdd said:

Afaik it's not possible in his case

AFAIK it's not unprecedented.  

[ubonjoe]

1 hour ago, Nordlys said:

I hear they usually accept application around December.  How do I know the date for this year's application and when the closing date is?

They started accepting applications on October 1st and the last day is December 30th.

Announced here on immigration website. https://www.immigration.go.th/?avada_portfolio=การเปิดรับคำขอเพื่อมีถ-2&portfolioCats=31%2C31

 

1 hour ago, Nordlys said:

A bit off-topic question - I hear foreign monks have to leave Thailand and reapply Non-Imm R after five years in Thailand (reapplication or extension, I'm not entirely sure) - not a requirement imposed by immigration bureau but สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ (National Office of Buddhism) does not issue documents necessarily for extension of visa if monks don't leave, so I heard. 

I have never heard of the 5 year maximum for extensions. It is certainly not in the immigration order for the extensions.

It might only be for those that are considered as still studying buddhism.

I suspect it might depend upon the provincial office involved.

[KhemaKhema]

Limitation of extensions is set by the Ministry of Religious Affairs สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ , not Immigration.
Currently, it is:
5 years of visa for monks and novices from buddhist countries (4 extensions).
and
10 years of visa for monks and novices from non-buddhist countries (9 extensions).

In the past it has been possible to reset the process by leaving the country (without Re-Entry permit)
and applying for a brand new visa from abroad.
The process for applying for a visa abroad for foreign monastics has recently changed, embassies and consulates abroad are no longer able to issue a Non-Immigrant R visa on their own, they now need an ok from Thailand. that means, ones future home monastery in Thailand has to start the process here.
It is quite similar to the process of applying for an extension inside the country, ie, getting the signatures from the DjauKanaTambol, Djau KanaAmphoe, DjauKanaDjangwat (form: Prawat ประวัติ) and then asking for a letter of recommendation at the Ministry of Religious Affairs (in Chiang Mai 4th floor SalaGlaangDjangwat), etc.
How long is your japanese monk now here for already?

As for your original question, Chaeng Watthana is the right place to ask.

[Nordlys]

1 hour ago, KhemaKhema said:

Limitation of extensions is set by the Ministry of Religious Affairs สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ , not Immigration.
Currently, it is:
5 years of visa for monks and novices from buddhist countries (4 extensions).
and
10 years of visa for monks and novices from non-buddhist countries (9 extensions).

In the past it has been possible to reset the process by leaving the country (without Re-Entry permit)
and applying for a brand new visa from abroad.
The process for applying for a visa abroad for foreign monastics has recently changed, embassies and consulates abroad are no longer able to issue a Non-Immigrant R visa on their own, they now need an ok from Thailand. that means, ones future home monastery in Thailand has to start the process here.
It is quite similar to the process of applying for an extension inside the country, ie, getting the signatures from the DjauKanaTambol, Djau KanaAmphoe, DjauKanaDjangwat (form: Prawat ประวัติ) and then asking for a letter of recommendation at the Ministry of Religious Affairs (in Chiang Mai 4th floor SalaGlaangDjangwat), etc.
How long is your japanese monk now here for already?

Thanks for clarification KhemaKhema.  

Does that mean foreign monastics DO NOT have to leave Thailand to reapply Non-Immigrant R visa any moree?  

And if they still have to leave to reapply at overseas consulate, is the requirement waived during this time of pandemic and international travel restrictions?  As you might know Non-Imm R is not one of those visas Thai consulates overseas will issue to foreign nationals at this time.  

I'm a bit confused but it's not the National Office of Buddhism but the Ministry of Culture, Department of Religious Affairs that mandates foreign monastics leave Thailand every 5 years and reapply?  สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ is National Office of Buddhism, not Department of Religious Affairs (Ministry of Culture).  It's a ministry-independent government agency in Phutthamonthon.  

The monk in question has been here for over 4 years.  His visa is up for extension/reapplication next July so we still have time.  

Also when you said 4 or 9 extensions, do you mean that to be the maximum number of times Department of Religious Affairs allows foreign monks to stay in Thailand (max 20 years for monks from Buddhist countries such as Japan and 90 years for non-Buddhist countries?).  

The Japanese monk (deputy abbot) in the same monastery (one the abbot is considering applying PR for) has been in Thailand as a monastic for 24 years now and I went to Chiang Mai Immigration with him last month for his latest extension.  

However, I know other Japanese monk who's ordained at another forest monastery 32 years ago and can no longer apply for his extension and returned to Japan two years ago.  He's still in robe, but practicing and teaching far from his home monastery and Sangha in a country where Theravada Buddhism has little and less foothold than in the west, not to mention there's little supporting lay community there albeit a Buddhist country.  He can now visit his home monastery in Thailand only as a tourist.  

[connda]

This is not unheard of as I know of Western monastics who are Thai citizens.

I suggest contacting the abbot of Wat Pa Nanachat monastery who could probably provide you with information regarding Western monks who ordained decades ago and still reside in Thailand with Thai citizenship status.

Ajahn Kevali - Abbot
Wat Pah Nanachat
Bahn Bung Wai
Ampher Warin Chamrab
Ubon Rachathani 34310
Thailand

[Nordlys]

32 minutes ago, connda said:

This is not unheard of as I know of Western monastics who are Thai citizens.

I suggest contacting the abbot of Wat Pa Nanachat monastery who could probably provide you with information regarding Western monks who ordained decades ago and still reside in Thailand with Thai citizenship status.

Ajahn Kevali - Abbot
Wat Pah Nanachat
Bahn Bung Wai
Ampher Warin Chamrab
Ubon Rachathani 34310
Thailand

I've met Ajahn Kevali both at his monastery and last week at Wat Pah Rattanawan but I haven't heard he has a citizenship or PR, though I know an Australian monk from the same Ajahn Chah's lineage is in the process of applying for PR and another famous monk Ajahn Jayasaro (British) was granted Thai citizenship last year.  But I don't know if he has even applied for it.  

Yes, WPN is a good place to ask but I don't know how to ask other than to travel to Ubon and show up at its doorstep. 

WPN being a well-known, well-funded and well-supported monastery they have a resident lay supporter and secretary to look after all the administrative affairs for foreign monastics.  And I don't know who that person is or how to get in touch with him.  

[KhemaKhema]

Q: Does that mean foreign monastics DO NOT have to leave Thailand to reapply Non-Immigrant R visa any moree?

A: There are 2 things:
1-would be an extension (1year) of an already existing Non-I R Visa, this is done at your local Immigration office, no need to leave the country. Same procedure every year.
2-would be an application for a new Non-I R visa from outside of Thailand.
This means, you are outside of Thailand and do not have a valid visa anymore (and no Re-Entry Permit).
As i have mentioned before, not so easy anymore, but possible.
This will then be a 3-Month Non-I R Visa, it can be extended for 1 year in the usual way starting 45 days before it runs out.
Let's drop the term "reapplication, it may be a bit confusing.

Q:And if they still have to leave to reapply at overseas consulate, is the requirement waived during this time of pandemic and international travel restrictions? As you might know Non-Imm R is not one of those visas Thai consulates overseas will issue to foreign nationals at this time.

A: not that i am aware of. Returning to Thailand may be very difficult at the moment for monks.
As the monk in question has only 4 extensions yet, an extension inside the country should not be an issue.

Q:I'm a bit confused but it's not the National Office of Buddhism but the Ministry of Culture, Department of Religious Affairs that mandates foreign monastics leave Thailand every 5 years and reapply? สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ is National Office of Buddhism, not Department of Religious Affairs (Ministry of Culture). It's a ministry-independent government agency in Phutthamonthon.

A: They do not make them leave and reapply. Only leave. One may reapply then, the outcome is not sure. It varies from Embassy to Embassy. And Government to Government. And....

Q: The monk in question has been in Thailand for over 4 years. His visa is up for extension/reapplication next July so we still have time.

A: At the beginning of your post you have mentioned only 1 monk who has recently turned 70 years old and wants to apply for pemanent residency.
Now you do mention another one...?
May i ask, what is it with the 4 year monk?
He should be able to extend his visa without problems in Chiang Mai.

Q: Also when you said 4 or 9 extensions, do you mean that to be the maximum number of times Department of Religious Affairs allows foreign monks to stay in Thailand (max 20 years for monks from Buddhist countries such as Japan and 90 years for non-Buddhist countries?).

A: It means 5 years of stay for monks and novices from countries considered buddhist (that is 4x1 year extensions).
and
10 years of stay for monks and novices from countries considered non-buddhist (that is 9x1 year extensions).
Under which category Japan is treated, i can not say.
There is a list at the สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ available.

The Japanese monk (deputy abbot) in the same monastery (one the abbot is considering applying PR for) has been in Thailand as a monastic for 24 years now and I went to Chiang Mai Immigration with him last month for his latest extension.

However, I know other Japanese monk who's ordained at another forest monastery 32 years ago and can no longer apply for his extension and returned to Japan two years ago. He's still in robe, but practicing and teaching far from his home monastery and Sangha in a country where Theravada Buddhism has little and less foothold than in the west, not to mention there's little supporting lay community there albeit a Buddhist country. He can now visit his home monastery in Thailand only as a tourist.

A: It should be possible for him to get a Non I R Visa too.
However, as he is only visiting, a tourist visa or a visa exempt stamp is much less hassle.

May i ask you, where do you come in? Are you a lay supporter of the monastery?
For the permanent residency, in my opinion the best thing to do, would be to travel to Bangkok together with the monk in question and ask in person at Chaeng Watthana.
Ajahn Jayasaro (now Pra ThepPatcharaNanaMuni) has been granted citizenship through a royal grant from the king himself.
I am not sure whether Ajahn Kevali can help you, these cases of permanent residency are usually judged very individually at immigration.
The very few monks i know who managed to get a permanent residency, they all had to be very patient and enduring, even more so their lay caretakers.
So , again, consider a trip to Bangkok together with the Venerable and ask in person at
Chaeng Watthana.

[connda]

8 hours ago, Nordlys said:

Yes, WPN is a good place to ask but I don't know how to ask other than to travel to Ubon and show up at its doorstep. 

Thai Post Office.  Ajahn does return correspondences. 

Ajahn Kevali - Abbot
Wat Pah Nanachat
Bahn Bung Wai
Ampher Warin Chamrab
Ubon Rachathani 34310
Thailand

[Nordlys]

On 11/17/2020 at 3:48 PM, KhemaKhema said:

Q: Does that mean foreign monastics DO NOT have to leave Thailand to reapply Non-Immigrant R visa any moree?

A: There are 2 things:
1-would be an extension (1year) of an already existing Non-I R Visa, this is done at your local Immigration office, no need to leave the country. Same procedure every year.
2-would be an application for a new Non-I R visa from outside of Thailand.
This means, you are outside of Thailand and do not have a valid visa anymore (and no Re-Entry Permit).
As i have mentioned before, not so easy anymore, but possible.
This will then be a 3-Month Non-I R Visa, it can be extended for 1 year in the usual way starting 45 days before it runs out.
Let's drop the term "reapplication, it may be a bit confusing.

Q:And if they still have to leave to reapply at overseas consulate, is the requirement waived during this time of pandemic and international travel restrictions? As you might know Non-Imm R is not one of those visas Thai consulates overseas will issue to foreign nationals at this time.

A: not that i am aware of. Returning to Thailand may be very difficult at the moment for monks.
As the monk in question has only 4 extensions yet, an extension inside the country should not be an issue.

Q:I'm a bit confused but it's not the National Office of Buddhism but the Ministry of Culture, Department of Religious Affairs that mandates foreign monastics leave Thailand every 5 years and reapply? สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ is National Office of Buddhism, not Department of Religious Affairs (Ministry of Culture). It's a ministry-independent government agency in Phutthamonthon.

A: They do not make them leave and reapply. Only leave. One may reapply then, the outcome is not sure. It varies from Embassy to Embassy. And Government to Government. And....

Q: The monk in question has been in Thailand for over 4 years. His visa is up for extension/reapplication next July so we still have time.

A: At the beginning of your post you have mentioned only 1 monk who has recently turned 70 years old and wants to apply for pemanent residency.
Now you do mention another one...?
May i ask, what is it with the 4 year monk?
He should be able to extend his visa without problems in Chiang Mai.

Q: Also when you said 4 or 9 extensions, do you mean that to be the maximum number of times Department of Religious Affairs allows foreign monks to stay in Thailand (max 20 years for monks from Buddhist countries such as Japan and 90 years for non-Buddhist countries?).

A: It means 5 years of stay for monks and novices from countries considered buddhist (that is 4x1 year extensions).
and
10 years of stay for monks and novices from countries considered non-buddhist (that is 9x1 year extensions).
Under which category Japan is treated, i can not say.
There is a list at the สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ available.

The Japanese monk (deputy abbot) in the same monastery (one the abbot is considering applying PR for) has been in Thailand as a monastic for 24 years now and I went to Chiang Mai Immigration with him last month for his latest extension.

However, I know other Japanese monk who's ordained at another forest monastery 32 years ago and can no longer apply for his extension and returned to Japan two years ago. He's still in robe, but practicing and teaching far from his home monastery and Sangha in a country where Theravada Buddhism has little and less foothold than in the west, not to mention there's little supporting lay community there albeit a Buddhist country. He can now visit his home monastery in Thailand only as a tourist.

A: It should be possible for him to get a Non I R Visa too.
However, as he is only visiting, a tourist visa or a visa exempt stamp is much less hassle.

May i ask you, where do you come in? Are you a lay supporter of the monastery?
For the permanent residency, in my opinion the best thing to do, would be to travel to Bangkok together with the monk in question and ask in person at Chaeng Watthana.
Ajahn Jayasaro (now Pra ThepPatcharaNanaMuni) has been granted citizenship through a royal grant from the king himself.
I am not sure whether Ajahn Kevali can help you, these cases of permanent residency are usually judged very individually at immigration.
The very few monks i know who managed to get a permanent residency, they all had to be very patient and enduring, even more so their lay caretakers.
So , again, consider a trip to Bangkok together with the Venerable and ask in person at
Chaeng Watthana.

Sorry for the confusion but the PR application and 5th year visa extension concern two different monks at the same monastery.  One a 70 years old with 24 rains and the other perhaps half that age with only 4 rains in robe.  

And I am an occasional lay supporter/volunteer far from the monastery in Bangkok.  

As to the 5th year extension of Non-I R Visa, I called up the National Office of Buddhism (สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ) today and asked my questions directly to "Foreign Relations Office".  

Their reply is that unless the monk in question is not certified in a letter issued by "สำนักเรียน" that they are still studying Dhamma they have to leave Thailand COVID or not and reapply Non-I R Visa overseas if they still wish to remain in robe in Thailand after 5th year.  Now what constitutes สำนักเรียน is little sketchy and wasn't entirely clear to me no matter how many times I demanded the clarification.  I told them monasteries in Thailand especially monasteries in forest and mountain settings don't have annex educational institution on temple grounds like Wat Mahathat, but it appears so long the monks are still learning whether or not they're enrolled on any curricular programs, that would be sufficient to be qualified for 5th year extension if the abbot or a senior monk in leading position (ajahn) can verify that in writing.  And by that they seem to emphasize academic pursuit (ปริยัติธรรม).  I took that to be studying of Pali Canon.  

Doing what any Thai village monks routinely do on daily basis like morning alms round, morning and evening chanting, daily meditation and thudong or attending Uposatha on observance day does not quality for National Office of Buddhism to issue a document necessarily for 5th year extension, so I was told.  

Also, whether or not the monk has taken and passed Nak Tham exam does not seem to be taken into consideration toward 5th year visa application.

We still have a lot of time until July next year so I guess I'll go visit their office in Phutthamonthon and ask for further clarification next time I happen to visit a nearby monastery วัดญาณเวศกวัน where I visit occasionally.  

BTW is it true PR application can only submitted at Chaeng Wathana?  

[KhemaKhema]

Yes, all this information acquired from Putthamonthon is correct.

But please, the information that you provide is not very precise.
You are talking about a "5th year extension".
There is crucial information missing in that case, that is:

-What is the exact date of the first Non-Immigrant R Visa of the monk in question?
(it may even have been issued abroad, in that case it is possibly a 3-month visa)

and therefore:

-what is the exact date of the first extension of that Non-Immigrant R Visa?

Knowing these dates we then can calculate the 5 years allowed to him. (they seem to treat Japan as a buddhist country).
If, as you say, he has 4 Vassa now, it is possible that he is only in his 4th year of stay, then he could extend for 1 more year just like before.
It is perfectly correct that only Pali Studies would qualify for another SPECIAL extension after the regular 5 years of stay , as the 3 levels of NakThamm can be completeted in 3 years. Pali studies take very long to complete.
As you say, there is still a lot of time until the extension is due, the COVID situation is likely to change anyway until then.

To make things more clear: it is not the สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ who is making him leave, they will just not issue a letter of recommendation to him anymore, which is a prerequisite for extending the visa at immigration.
So, he would then have to leave.
But,it is not mandatory to leave to ones homecountry, he could stay for a few months in a monastery in Malaysia for example (some good forest-monasteries around) and then apply for a brand new Non-I R Visa in Kuala Lumpur or Penang, and so restart the 5 years period after returning to Thailand.
Also, as you are going to extend the visa in Chiang Mai, then สำนักงานพระพุทธศาสนาแห่งชาติ in Chiang Mai (at 4th floor SalaGlaang) should be the source of information for you, and not Phutthamonthon.
These branches have the power to decide individually, so what you have been told in Phutthamonthon may not even apply to Chiang Mai.
This has been proven by experience to the astonishment of some foreign monks already.

A different idea could be to contemplate ELITE-Card.
Expensive, but maybe he has relatives who would like to sponsor him...
This could also be a solution for both monks.

With all respect, it strikes me as a bit odd that you have:
" a Japanese monk who speaks and writes excellent Thai and is in a leading position in the monastery to teach the sangha of both Thai and foreign monks at his monastery with 24 years in Thailand"
and he can not help his fellow countryman with his visa issues or contact Chaeng Watthana himself....knowledge may be just a phonecall away.
How has he managed to stay in Thailand that long? He should be GrandMaster of Visa by now...

[unblocktheplanet]

On 11/16/2020 at 1:11 PM, ubonjoe said:

The have to enter with the correct visa and apply for extensions of stay.

And 90 day reports...

[jomtienisgood]

14 hours ago, unblocktheplanet said:

And 90 day reports...

Interesting.. I also like very much your subtitles.... In winter......

[Nordlys]

On 11/19/2020 at 10:28 AM, KhemaKhema said:

-what is the exact date of the first extension of that Non-Immigrant R Visa?

Knowing these dates we then can calculate the 5 years allowed to him. (they seem to treat Japan as a buddhist country).
If, as you say, he has 4 Vassa now, it is possible that he is only in his 4th year of stay, then he could extend for 1 more year just like before.
It is perfectly correct that only Pali Studies would qualify for another SPECIAL extension after the regular 5 years of stay , as the 3 levels of NakThamm can be completeted in 3 years. Pali studies take very long to complete.
As you say, there is still a lot of time until the extension is due, the COVID situation is likely to change anyway until then.

How has he managed to stay in Thailand that long? He should be GrandMaster of Visa by now...

 

His 3rd extension expired either June or July 30th this year and he's already on his 4th extension.  His Non-I R was issued in Thailand after his samanera ordination, not in Japan.  

Monks know about Elite Card too but 500,000 Baht for just one monk is simply out of question for a forest monastery in remote mountainous region where the vast majority of supporting local lay community is ethnic Karen and Shan people (some stateless).  

And it really doesn't matter which country he leaves for after 5 years.  AFAIK Non-I R is not one of those visas Thai diplomatic missions abroad will issue at the moment. 
 

On 11/19/2020 at 10:28 AM, KhemaKhema said:

With all respect, it strikes me as a bit odd that you have:
" a Japanese monk who speaks and writes excellent Thai and is in a leading position in the monastery to teach the sangha of both Thai and foreign monks at his monastery with 24 years in Thailand"
and he can not help his fellow countryman with his visa issues or contact Chaeng Watthana himself....knowledge may be just a phonecall away.
How has he managed to stay in Thailand that long? He should be GrandMaster of Visa by now...

 

I don't have an explanation for that other than to say he never faced the pandemic in 24 years as a Bhikkhu and this never became a matter of concern to him until recently because it's just a matter of leaving Thailand every 5 years in the past.  Besides, we thought we'd find out when I brought the Venerable to CM immigration to renew his extension last month (24 yrs monk).  Also, I have a friend who was formerly a foreign monastic in Ajahn Chah's lineage for 20 years (10 of which was spent in Thailand) and I offered to help the Venerable by asking him to forward my inquiry to Wat Pah Nanachat where I know there is a resident lay volunteer who handles immigration matters for foreign monastics (so my former monk friend doesn't know much about the intricacies of visa application/extension).  

 

By the way, the Venerable seems to remember he had the National Office of Buddhism issued "letter of recommendation" to be submitted to immigration every year, not every 5 years.  Is that really the case?  

[KhemaKhema]

-His 3rd extension expired either June or July 30th this year and he's already on his 4th extension.
His Non-I R was issued in Thailand after his samanera ordination, not in Japan.
A:
Now things become a bit more clear.
If the 4 Vassa monk is on his 4th extension already (in his 5th year of stay on Non-I R), he will have to leave Thailand once his visa has run out.
As his visa is due in July 2021, frankly, i do not see much reason to start worrying now.
As mentioned before, Malaysia has some good forest monasteries (for example https://sasanarakkha.org), he could comfortably spend the vassa there and in November 2021 try to apply for a new Non-I R Visa either at KualaLumpur or at Penang.

-Monks know about Elite Card too but 500,000 Baht for just one monk is simply out of question for a forest monastery in remote mountainous region where the vast majority of supporting local lay community is ethnic Karen and Shan people (some stateless).
A:
This option was only mentioned for the sake of showing you all the possibilities there are.
If the Venerable 24 Vassa monk really really really has to stay in Thailand and can not get permanent residency, this may turn out to be the only option one day.

-And it really doesn't matter which country he leaves for after 5 years.
A:
Yes, it does not matter where he leaves to, anywhere he is able to survive as a bhikkhu will do.
Wherever he goes , if that country has a Thai embassy/consulate, there he can try to apply for a new visa.
Many monks have done this procedure already.

-AFAIK Non-I R is not one of those visas Thai diplomatic missions abroad will issue at the moment.
A:
Yes, but he does not need to leave at the moment. Only in July 2021. Apart from COVID, the visa situation is changing constantly too anyway.
Have a look through THAIVISA-Forum, you will see that things are very much Not Sure.

-I don't have an explanation for that other than to say he never faced the pandemic in 24 years as a Bhikkhu and this never became a matter of concern to him until recently because it's just a matter of leaving Thailand every 5 years in the past.
A:
So the 24 year monk should know all about leaving and re-entering, as he seems to have done it many times already. As he has just extended his visa for another year, he now has 1 year time to start looking for his options. See below.

-Besides, we thought we'd find out when I brought the venerable to CM immigration to renew his extension last month (24 yrs monk).
A:
As has been explained before: the crucial point is the "letter of recommendation" issued by the SamnagPhut.
It needs to be applied for every year, then together with all the other papers presented at immigration.
As the extension for the 4 Vassa monk is dependent on this "letter of recommendation" and SamnagPhut will not issue it after 5 years of stay for monks from buddhist countries, he then can not apply for a visa at immigration.
So Immigration can not process your visa request. And can not answer your questions too.
If that letter of recommendation has been done in the past at SamnagPhut Chiang Mai, then this is where you have to ask.
The process of requesting a "letter of recommendation" should be very clear to the Venerable 24 Vassa monk, he must have done it many times before.

-Also, I have a friend who was formerly a foreign monastic in Ajahn Chah's lineage for 20 years (10 of which was spent in Thailand) and I offered to help the Venerable by asking him to forward my inquiry to Wat Pah Nanachat where I know there is a resident lay volunteer who handles immigration matters for foreign monastics (so my former monk friend doesn't know much about the intricacies of visa application/extension).
A:
You are asking for advice on things that are going to happen July 2021. Be aware, all the answers, options and ideas given to you now may be obsolete by then.

-By the way, the Venerable seems to remember he had the National Office of Buddhism issued "letter of recommendation" to be submitted to immigration every year, not every 5 years. Is that really the case?
A:
Yes, that is the case, as explained before already. There is a certain set of paperwork needed every year, including a recent "letter of recommendation".

Now, how about taking a step back and try to return to the original subject:
" Permanent Residency or Citizenship for Foreign Monastics in Thailand "
this is something you can start looking into now by contacting Chaeng Watthana.
And again, a personal visit with the monk in question is highly recommended.
State-officials usually act much more responsible to a monks personal visit than to a casual phonecall.
After your visit you will then have a personal contact at Chaeng Watthana too, something that may turn out quite helpful in the future.

[Nordlys]

On 11/21/2020 at 12:46 PM, KhemaKhema said:

Now things become a bit more clear.
If the 4 Vassa monk is on his 4th extension already (in his 5th year of stay on Non-I R), he will have to leave Thailand once his visa has run out.
As his visa is due in July 2021, frankly, i do not see much reason to start worrying now.
As mentioned before, Malaysia has some good forest monasteries (for example https://sasanarakkha.org), he could comfortably spend the vassa there and in November 2021 try to apply for a new Non-I R Visa either at KualaLumpur or at Penang.

 

But as I said in previous post, the staff at National Office of Buddhism (Phutthamonthon office) said he DOESN'T have to leave Thailand even on his 5th year so long his Ajahn can write a letter to National Office of Buddhism certifying that the 4 vassa monk is still studying Pali, a prerequisite for National Office of Buddhism in order to issue a "letter of recommendation" which in turn will become necessary for Non-I R extension.  Now I didn't know at the time I call them up that Samnak Phut's letter must be issued every year, not every 5 years so I'm no longer confident if they really understood my concern (that he might have to leave after 5 years) but I did stress 5th year extension over and over and they did say he doesn't have to leave on 5th year or any other year for that matter so long he has a "letter of recommendation" that they're happy to issue provided his Ajahn (preferably an abbot, I assume) can certify he is still studying Dhamma or Pali (Pariyati Tham).  

Either way they have two other Japanese monks at the same monastery (four including 4 yrs and 24 years Venerable) and I don't know when the other two's extension at Chiang Mai Immigration is up, but I'll tell them to go to National Office of Buddhism branch office in Chiang Mai at SalaGlaang and ask them directly when the next monk's annual extension is up.  

Thanks for the link but aside from the question of who will host the 5th year monk as a guest monk while stranded outside Thailand there's a question of who will issue Non-I R visa for him if at all.  Neither Malaysia nor Japan is not faring well in their fight to contain the pandemic and therefore neither of them is considered low-risk countries for Thailand, making both Japanese and Malaysians or anyone residing in either of these countries ineligible even for Thailand's newly launched Special Tourist Visa (SVT).  

https://image.mfa.go.th/mfa/0/n3gTFT2TOE/listed_country_2018_2.pdf

But as you said, we still have three quarters of a year left to worry and anything can happen by the time his 5th extension is up next July.  

 

On 11/21/2020 at 12:46 PM, KhemaKhema said:

Now, how about taking a step back and try to return to the original subject:
" Permanent Residency or Citizenship for Foreign Monastics in Thailand "
this is something you can start looking into now by contacting Chaeng Watthana.
And again, a personal visit with the monk in question is highly recommended.
State-officials usually act much more responsible to a monks personal visit than to a casual phonecall.
After your visit you will then have a personal contact at Chaeng Watthana too, something that may turn out quite helpful in the future.

 

I can make a personal trip to Chaeng Watthana as soon as this week, no problem.  But is it really essential for 70 yrs old Venerable to come to Bangkok, bracing 12 hrs overnight trip on Morchit-bound bus just to make an inquiry?  I have all his bio written in Thai with me.  Either way, there's only 5 weeks left until this year's PR application will close and not only are we not ready or even sure if the Venerable is eligible for application under "special category" but he has already made up his mind NOT to pursue it this year and unsure if he's willing to apply at all next year even if the immigration is willing to accept his application under special consideration.  I guess partly because none of this is his idea to begin with but my suggestion and I only made that suggestion last month when I visited his monastery for Kathina during which time he asked me to drive to CM immigration for his Non-I R extension, although I learned during the stay at his monastery that his Thai abbot has sought to apply Thai citizenship for him in the past, which he can't by bypassing PR unless he has a Thai spouse which of course he doesn't.  

And is it true PR application can only be accpeted in Bangkok and not CM or anywhere else?  

And do you know who among many foreign monastics in Thailand is the one continuously in robe without ever leaving Thailand except for occasional home visit (e.g. continuously maintaining Non-IR visa extension)?  You do know many western monks in Ajahn Chah's forest tradition have spent 30 or 40+ years in robe and some even beyond 50 but many such senior monks are now serving as an abbot in branch monasteries in the west.  

And did Ajahn Jayasaro even applied for (or asked for) a citizenship himself when he was granted one by HM the King last year?  

 

[KhemaKhema]

-But as I said in previous post, the staff at National Office of Buddhism (Phutthamonthon office) said he DOESN'T have to leave Thailand even on his 5th year so long his Ajahn can write a letter to National Office of Buddhismcertifying that the 4 vassa monk is still studying Pali, a prerequisite for National Office of Buddhism in order for issuing a "letter of recommendation" which in turn will become necessary for Non-I R visa extension. Now I didn't know at the time I call them up that Samnak Phut's letter must be issued every year, not every 5 years so I'm no longer confident if they really understood my concern (that he might have to leave after 5 years) but I did stress 5th year extension over and over and they did say he doesn't have to leave on 5th year or any year for that matter so long he has a "letter of recommendation" that they're happy to issue provided his mentor/ajahn can certify he is still studying Dhamma or Pali (Pariyati Tham).

A: please see my advice, posted 19.11.2020 at 03:28 AM:
"It is perfectly correct that only Pali Studies would qualify for another SPECIAL extension after the regular 5 years of stay"
So, if he is still studying Pali and has not finished his studies yet, he should contact the same SamnagPhut where he has done his previous extensions for advice.

-Either way they have two other Japanese monks at the same monastery (four including 4 yrs and 24 years Venerable) and I don't know when the other two's extension at Chiang Mai immigration is up, but I'll tell them to go to National Office of Buddhism branch office in Chiang Mai at SalaGlaang and ask them directly when the next monk's annual extension is up.

A: There is no need to go to SamnagPhut. The dates of ones visa (and extensions due) are clearly visible in ones passport. And in ones visa-papers.
The SamnagPhut may be hard pressed to find this information in all their paperwork, while the monks can just look into their passports.
Usually one uses the same computer-forms every year, just changes the dates. An effort of 30 minutes once a year.

-Thanks for the link but aside from the question of who will host the 5th year monk while stranded outside Thailand there's a question of who will issue Non-I R visa for him if at all. Neither Malaysia nor Japan is not faring well in their fight to contain the pandemic and therefore neither of them is considered low-risk countries, making both Japanese and Malaysians or anyone residing in either of these countries ineligible even for Thailand's newly launched Special Tourist Visa (SVT).

A:
One always contacts the monastery one wants to go to beforehand.
If the monastery then agrees to take the monk up, they then will also be his supporters.
So monks do not become stranded somewhere.

-https://image.mfa.go.th/mfa/0/n3gTFT2TOE/listed_country_2018_2.pdf

A: I can not find Japan on this list, anyway, it just says that people from certain countries will have to apply at KL and wait a bit longer for ones visa, nothing more.

-But as you said, we still have three quarters of a year left to worry about and anything can happen by the time his 5th extension is up next July.
I can make a personal trip to Chaeng Watthana as soon as this week but is it really essential for 70 yrs old Venerable to come to Bangkok, bracing 12 hrs overnight trip on Morchit-bound bus just to make an inquiry? I have all his bio written in Thai with me. Either way, there's only 5 weeks left until this year's PR application will close and not only are we not ready for it or even sure if the Venerable is eligible for application under "special category" but he has already made up his mind to waive this year's application (provided he's eligible) and still undecided if he's willing to apply at all next year even if the immigration is willing to accept his application under special consideration. I guess partly because It's not his idea to begin with (my suggestion) and I only made PR suggestion last month when I visited his monastery for Kathina during which time he asked me to drive to CM immigration for his Non-I R extension, although I learned his Thai abbot has sought to apply Thai citizenship for him in the past, which I know he can't, not by bypassing PR unless he has a Thai spouse which of course he doesn't.

And is it really true PR application can only be accpeted in Bangkok and not CM or anywhere else?

A: please call them or, even better, take a trip to Chaeng Watthana and ask them.

And do you know who among many foreign monastics in Thailand is the one continuously in robe without ever leaving Thailand except for occasional home visit (e.g. continuously maintaining Non-IR visa extension)? You do know many western monks in Ajahn Chah's forest tradition have spent 30 or 40+ years in robe and some even beyond 50 but many such senior monks are often now serving as an abbot in branch monasteries in the west.

And did Ajahn Jayasaro even applied for (or asked for) a citizenship himself when he was granted one by HM the King last year?

A: It is common practice to offer citizenship to foreign monks once they have reached certain very high ecclesiastical ranks.

Now, two steps back, may i offer some reflections suffused with loving-kindness:
It seems you have very good intentions to help the foreign monastics in your monastery with their visa-issues, this is most praiseworthy.
At the moment ,you seem to be in an "action-mode", trying to give help where help may be needed, but maybe not so much or so urgently as you may think.
Also, through your lack of experience in these confusing matters, you may have to develop more patience and equanimity.
In practical terms, you could contact ChaengWatthana, try to get reliable information regarding permanent residency for monks, summarize it up on a document and then just pass it on to the monk quietly.
After that, i would recommend you to let go of the issue for now.
I am sure, when the situation requires it, the monks will happily contact you.

In both worlds
the merit-maker delights.
He delights at the thought,
'I've made merit.'
Having gone to a good destination,
he delights all the more.
Dhammapada verse 18

Heedfulness: the path to the Deathless.
Heedlessness: the path to death.
The heedful do not die.
The heedless are as if already dead.
Dhammapada verse 21

[Nordlys]

On 11/25/2020 at 10:40 AM, KhemaKhema said:

Now, two steps back, may i offer some reflections suffused with loving-kindness:
It seems you have very good intentions to help the foreign monastics in your monastery with their visa-issues, this is most praiseworthy.
At the moment ,you seem to be in an "action-mode", trying to give help where help may be needed, but maybe not so much or so urgently as you may think.
Also, through your lack of experience in these confusing matters, you may have to develop more patience and equanimity.
In practical terms, you could contact ChaengWatthana, try to get reliable information regarding permanent residency for monks, summarize it up on a document and then just pass it on to the monk quietly.
After that, i would recommend you to let go of the issue for now.
I am sure, when the situation requires it, the monks will happily contact you.

In both worlds
the merit-maker delights.
He delights at the thought,
'I've made merit.'
Having gone to a good destination,
he delights all the more.
Dhammapada verse 18

Heedfulness: the path to the Deathless.
Heedlessness: the path to death.
The heedful do not die.
The heedless are as if already dead.
Dhammapada verse 21

Thanks for all your inputs and sharing of Dhammapada verses + wise words for reflection.  

Yes, you're absolutely right about me in full "action-mode" so much so I almost forgot it's his PR application and his future in Thailand at stake, not mine.  Either way it's already been determined the Venerable will waive this year's application and he has gone into short, two weeks solitary retreat (he calls it กรรมฐาน) in a remote kuti on the monastery ground.  So I'm not in any rush to go to Chaeng Wattana for now but I will definitely do so perhaps after New Year.  

I'm still trying to determine why the other Japanese monk who had spent 30 vassa in Thailand at the better-known and highly respected forest monastery Wat Pah Sukato had his visa denied after 30 extensions, in a hope perhaps he can share some insight as to whether or not we should really pursue the PR application at all next year. That said I don't even know if he knows why his extension was denied.