Thai language question

[EricTh]

 

I looked up my dictionary and there are tons of synonyms for the word physical fight.

 

What is the most common informal word for a physical fight as in between two men or two groups of men?

 

I'm not talking about a quarrel but a real physical fight that is not in a fighting match like Muay Thai.

 

[Delight]

 My Dictionary reads

fight n. (e.g. hand-to-hand, illness)

การต่อสู้ gaan-dtɔ̀ɔ-sûu 

 

I guess the illness reference is to fight an illness

[KhaoNiaw]

The easiest way in Thai would be to use it as a verb ตีกัน (dtee gan)
A bit more formal but that might work for groups fighting in the street etc. would be ทะเลาะวิวาท (talohwiwaat) which is often used as a noun การทะเลาะวิวาท 

[kokesaat]

Just browsing google for various articles on 'men fighting' using a variety of Thai words......it seems ทะเลาะกัน comes up with the most articles/videos on actual fighting.  I think in the end, 'fight' is a relative word......I had a fight with my wife last night could mean all sorts of things to different people unless you add more to the story.  

[kokesaat]

I consulted with the wife-dictionary after my post above.  I asked her to paint a picture with 'ทะเลาะกัน' and she said people arguing/fighting.  She told me, if you want to paint a picture of fisticuffs or worse, you'd say, 'ทะเลาะกันแล้วตีดัน'.  I could say the sameish thing in English, "Joe had a fight with his wife, then assaulted her.'

[EricTh]

13 hours ago, kokesaat said:

Just browsing google for various articles on 'men fighting' using a variety of Thai words......it seems ทะเลาะกัน comes up with the most articles/videos on actual fighting.  I think in the end, 'fight' is a relative word......I had a fight with my wife last night could mean all sorts of things to different people unless you add more to the story.  

 

Google only give the formal word that is written and not spoken language.

 

Just type 'wife' and Google gives you 'phanraya' which is an Indic word for formal writing.

 

I am looking for the informal common word. I believe 'Talok' is another formal Indic word.

 

Real Thai words have only one syllable or compound words.

 

Nowadays, people rely too much on Google that sometimes give the wrong answer.

[tgeezer]

Don't you think that ตีกัน is most descriptive? 

17 hours ago, kokesaat said:

I consulted with the wife-dictionary after my post above.  I asked her to paint a picture with 'ทะเลาะกัน' and she said people arguing/fighting.  She told me, if you want to paint a picture of fisticuffs or worse, you'd say, 'ทะเลาะกันแล้วตีดัน'.  I could say the sameish thing in English, "Joe had a fight with his wife, then assaulted her.'

ดัน to push. Once you say ตี  adding ดัน I imagine not leaving her alone.  Looking at the dictionary ทะเลาะ leads to verbal arguments, words like ทะเลาะ เถียง โต้เถียง วิวาท 

Punching one another is มวย as we all know from มวยไทย defined as การบกกันด้วยหมัด   Hitting one another with fists. 

[kokesaat]

My apologies:  ทะเลาะกันแล้วตีดัน should have been ทะเลาะกันแล้วตีกัน.  

[JHicks]

10 hours ago, EricTh said:

I am looking for the informal common word. I believe 'Talok' is another formal Indic word.

I think it actually came into Thai from Khmer. A lot of words did, including everyday vocab like เดิน, เรียน, ถนน, or สะอาด. Many of them originally started with consonant clusters that Thai speakers find / found hard to pronounce, and these clusters got expanded out to become a short syllable with "a" followed by a longer syllable (as in ถนน - or ทะเลาะ).  This is one source of all the unwritten "a"s you find in Thai.

[1FinickyOne]

On 11/19/2020 at 9:18 PM, KhaoNiaw said:

The easiest way in Thai would be to use it as a verb ตีกัน (dtee gan)

This is what I hear most of the time... even for husband and wife

[tgeezer]

51 minutes ago, kokesaat said:

My apologies:  ทะเลาะกันแล้วตีดัน should have been ทะเลาะกันแล้วตีกัน.  

Don't worry, I can make anything work.  You translated it as assault,  so not ตีกัน doesn't apply. 

[tgeezer]

I mentioned มวย on a FaceTime and was corrected immediately, it is a noun and actually refers to the sport of boxing. Easy mistake to make because I use it like a verb in English. 
The two terms offered were ต่อสู้ and ชกต่อย . What we have agreed here ตี, was rejected as implying using a weapon or object like a chair leg.  I wish that I had asked about ตีกัน because now it looks less likely to me. 
 

[KhaoNiaw]

6 hours ago, tgeezer said:

I mentioned มวย on a FaceTime and was corrected immediately, it is a noun and actually refers to the sport of boxing. Easy mistake to make because I use it like a verb in English. 
The two terms offered were ต่อสู้ and ชกต่อย . What we have agreed here ตี, was rejected as implying using a weapon or object like a chair leg.  I wish that I had asked about ตีกัน because now it looks less likely to me. 
 

ตีกัน definitely doesn't have to include a weapon but is less specific than ชกด่อย, which can also have กัน added for ชกด่อยกัน and is what boxers  do to each other. Boxers don't ตีกัน but it does get used with guys fighting in the street. So I would guess ตีกัน would be the most commonly  generally used, with ชกด่อยกัน used more to focus on the fact it was just a fist fight.    
The term ทะเลาะวิวาท is a more general term that is can be used for various types of disturbance from a heavy argument to a street brawl. I'm not sure if it's a full legal term but it's what you read or hear in reports where people have been arrested or charged for some kind of public disturbance. 
ต่อสู้ feels more like armies at war, also political struggle, rather than some guys belting each other. 

[KhaoNiaw]

1 minute ago, KhaoNiaw said:

ตีกัน definitely doesn't have to include a weapon but is less specific than ชกด่อย, which can also have กัน added for ชกด่อยกัน, and is what boxers  do to each other. Boxers don't ตีกัน but it does get used with guys fighting in the street. So I would guess ตีกัน would be the most commonly generally used, with ชกด่อยกัน used if it's to focus on the fact it was just a fist fight.    

The term ทะเลาะวิวาท is a more general term that is can be used for various types of disturbance from a heavy argument to a street brawl. I'm not sure if it's a full legal term but it's what you read or hear in reports where people have been arrested or charged for some kind of public disturbance. 

ต่อสู้ feels more like armies at war, also political struggle, rather than some guys belting each other. 

 

[tgeezer]

This is the fascination for me of learning a language when I have not paid much attention to my own.  In conversation I was told that ต่อสู้ can be used at every level from a single person to an army.  นักนักท้องเที่ยวต่อสู้หนาพับ  หมาต่อสู้แมว

It is a question is parlance, a language professor or a poet can change meanings and be accepted in doing so whereas the normal person will have trouble with acceptance outside their circle.  If we say ชกดัน it is up to the listener to accept it or correct us if they think it worthwhile, the meaning is not in doubt.   This is the value of these discussions, they show that we have a lot of latitude in how we speak, as much as a Thai saying "He hit shove me".

 
 

[EricTh]

17 hours ago, JHicks said:

I think it actually came into Thai from Khmer. A lot of words did, including everyday vocab like เดิน, เรียน, ถนน, or สะอาด. Many of them originally started with consonant clusters that Thai speakers find / found hard to pronounce, and these clusters got expanded out to become a short syllable with "a" followed by a longer syllable (as in ถนน - or ทะเลาะ).  This is one source of all the unwritten "a"s you find in Thai.

 

It's really amazing how Thai can have so many variations for  a simple word like 'physical fight'.

 

I guess it's because there are Khmer and also Indic versions of that. I guess ตีกัน should be the correct one.

 

Foreigners usually get confused which one to use. 

 

[tgeezer]

I think that there is no correct one, if communication is the aim for you and you have sufficient experience the “correct” word for you to use appears. Always subject to modification by the people you meet.  
 I am hoping that people will see my “joke topic” and give their opinion on my parlance; นั้น as a pronoun for example. 
 

There are many ways to describe a fight in English: fist fight, fisticuffs, punching one another out, fighting, etc. Which is correct? 

[EricTh]

You think Thailand is a safe place?

 

One poor helpless teenager got chased and beaten even when he is down by many other boys with weapons.

 

 

This goes to show how cruel some people can be.

 

[EricTh]

7 hours ago, tgeezer said:

 

There are many ways to describe a fight in English: fist fight, fisticuffs, punching one another out, fighting, etc. Which is correct? 

 

I am talking about a brutal fight such as the video above. If I see one such fight, I will report to the Thai police with the right word over the phone.

 

If you say the wrong word, the police might get the wrong meaning that it's just a verbal argument.

[tgeezer]

That is an assault. การโจมตี  

The attention given to it shows that it is not a common thing. They looked bent on murdering the Burmese chap. As I think they wrote รอดดั่งปาฏิหาริย์ it was a miraculous escape. 
I think that I would put some panic in my voice to the police and say that they were killing him. ฆ่าให้ตาย sort of thing. 

[tgeezer]

The title intrigued me.
ทุบโต๊ะข่าว  Looks like Table Thumping News  . 
เอามือทุบโต๊ะ  is in the definition of ทุบ 

Also ทุบตี which is to ทำร้ายร่างกาย 
It looks like a good word for what the picture shows. 

[kokesaat]

I happened across this in Lesson 16 of the Maani series.....a story of Maani and gang witnessing a brawl in the neighborhood while returning home from school.  The accompanying photo in the story shows two men in fisticuffs.....described as 'ชกต่อยกัน'.  The students' teacher goes on to explain how police are used to intercede in such affairs, then described as 'ทะเลาะกัน'.  So, at least from this story, albeit dated, the two terms are used interchangeably.  

[tgeezer]

On 12/10/2020 at 6:06 PM, kokesaat said:

I happened across this in Lesson 16 of the Maani series.....a story of Maani and gang witnessing a brawl in the neighborhood while returning home from school.  The accompanying photo in the story shows two men in fisticuffs.....described as 'ชกต่อยกัน'.  The students' teacher goes on to explain how police are used to intercede in such affairs, then described as 'ทะเลาะกัน'.  So, at least from this story, albeit dated, the two terms are used interchangeably.  

Don't you feel that the teacher was underplaying it somewhat?  

I have just encountered มวยวัด meaning to hit one another ไม่มีกติกา . In The dictionary กติกา is given the English equivalent word of "covenant"! That needs some context other than fighting I think. 

วัด, the verb, is to flail with the arms, I suppose that มวยวัด (fight without rules) is also a possibility.