Sweden's pandemic experiment ends amid spiking coronavirus cases

[Jeffr2]

3 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Australia and New Zealand two frightened rabbits frozen stiff in the middle of the road praying for herd immunity rescue from a passing vaccine.Don't forget the rest of the disaster countries like Sweden's neighbour Belgium with nearly twice the deaths per million of population numbers could be perceived to be the worse possible scenario.Why don't you pick on Belgium?I notice you've dragged the rotted carcass of Sweden's herd immunity argument well doesn't smell as bad as Belgium's disastrous attempt's to slay the covid dragon.Why don't you pick on Belgium they did twice as bad as Sweden.

Umm....this article is about Sweden, not OZ, NZ or Belgium.  But it was proven by Sweden that herd immunity didn't work.  And they've admitted this now.

 

You really need a better source for your news.

[FarFlungFalang]

Just now, Jeffr2 said:

Come on.  Sweden didn't follow the WHO's protocols.  Which were mask up and social distance.  You'll have to provide a link to a credible news source to back up your claim.  Otherwise, it's not true.

 

You really should read this article.  You seem to be out of touch.

https://www.thinkglobalhealth.org/article/five-problems-swedish-approach-covid-19

Don't you remember the WHO saying masks didn't stop the spread of the virus and they also recommended the borders remain open?I don't really "have to" anything that's just you blowing hard.Credible?Is that what you call it?Put a smile on my dial that credible gag.Who gave the credit to all those articles?Where's the list of credible sources?Is it on the net?Is that where I look?Have you seen the things these credible news sources get up to?Jeff sometimes I wish I was out of touch,I might be way out there but I wouldn't trust a credible news source because they can't be trusted.You've seen the sly way they operate bordering on moving in the shadows of innuendo and half facts and managed data making decisions based upon sales rather than truth?Maybe you just trust the "credible news" that is somehow not misleading a bit like Thailand's pandemic numbers which may appear to be slightly at odds with original predictions of doom and gloom. 

[Jeffr2]

11 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Don't you remember the WHO saying masks didn't stop the spread of the virus and they also recommended the borders remain open?I don't really "have to" anything that's just you blowing hard.Credible?Is that what you call it?Put a smile on my dial that credible gag.Who gave the credit to all those articles?Where's the list of credible sources?Is it on the net?Is that where I look?Have you seen the things these credible news sources get up to?Jeff sometimes I wish I was out of touch,I might be way out there but I wouldn't trust a credible news source because they can't be trusted.You've seen the sly way they operate bordering on moving in the shadows of innuendo and half facts and managed data making decisions based upon sales rather than truth?Maybe you just trust the "credible news" that is somehow not misleading a bit like Thailand's pandemic numbers which may appear to be slightly at odds with original predictions of doom and gloom. 

You are aware this is a new virus.  One that in the beginning of the year, they didn't fully understand.  Initially, they weren't sure masks would work.  Now they understand they do.  Initially Dr. Fauci said healthy people didn't need to wear masks.  Because we were running out of them!

 

You really need a better source for your news.

[FarFlungFalang]

44 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Umm....this article is about Sweden, not OZ, NZ or Belgium.  But it was proven by Sweden that herd immunity didn't work.  And they've admitted this now.

 

You really need a better source for your news.

You dragged the US into the debate a while back and Lacessit brought in Oz and NZ so I brought in Belgium which just totally blows your argument out of the water.You can't stop herd immunity it is reached when the enough people get immunity to the virus.The only way to not reach herd immunity remain in a state of perpetual infections.That means no vaccines because with vaccines comes herd immunity and it sounds like you're against herd immunity and wish people to be forever vulnerable to infections.Herd immunity has been achieved in every single epidemic and pandemic humanity has suffered.Maybe do some research on the definition of herd immunity like look up the word in a dictionary.Or try this link (just don't call me Lancelot Link) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

Edited December 14, 2020 by FarFlungFalang

[FarFlungFalang]

6 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

You really need a better source for your news.

We slurp from the same foul smelling cup.

[FarFlungFalang]

28 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

You are aware this is a new virus.  One that in the beginning of the year, they didn't fully understand.  Initially, they weren't sure masks would work.  Now they understand they do.  Initially Dr. Fauci said healthy people didn't need to wear masks.  Because we were running out of them!

 

You really need a better source for your news.

Can you provide a link to a study which proves your claim that masks stop the spread of the virus and not just slow it's progress other wise your claim is not correct according to your rule..My lungs breath in a certain amount of air as well as dispelling a similar quantity same as most people wether wearing a mask or not,if there are virus particles present they will also go in and out with the breath so I can't quite picture where the virus gets stopped because the virus can get in.Yes you the man to go to if in need of a credible source and I'm still waiting for the requested list of credible sources and who gives the credit to these sources.

Edited December 14, 2020 by FarFlungFalang

[Jeffr2]

4 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Can you provide a link to a study which proves your claim that masks stop the spread of the virus and not just slow it's progress other wise your claim is not correct according to your rule..My lungs breath in a certain amount of air as well as dispelling a similar quantity same as most people wether wearing a mask or not,if there are virus particles present they will also go in and out with the breath so I can't quite picture where the virus gets stopped because the virus can get in.Yes you the man to go to if in need of a credible source and I'm still waiting for the requested list of credible sources and who gives the credit to these sources.

It's not worth my time with people who deny the severity of the pandemic.

[FarFlungFalang]

45 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

It's not worth my time with people who deny the severity of the pandemic.

So again according to your rule that with no link the claim is not true,gee Jeff your rule seems to be working against you somewhat.Can you also provide a link that I'm denying the severity of the pandemic?All I've denied here is that Sweden sacrificed it's elderly citizen's lives for an experiment an accusation it strenuously denies.

[FarFlungFalang]

This is what I just read about masks.

 

Posted 1 hour ago

The fear maybe with all these cheap masks going around. I was in Macro the other day and this girl in front of me a t check out wearing a mask sneezed and half of her nose juice came on my arm. She did say she was sorry!

 

[Fat is a type of crazy]

2 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Australia and New Zealand two frightened rabbits frozen stiff in the middle of the road praying for herd immunity rescue from a passing vaccine.Don't forget the rest of the disaster countries like Sweden's neighbour Belgium with nearly twice the deaths per million of population numbers could be perceived to be the worse possible scenario.Why don't you pick on Belgium?I notice you've dragged the rotted carcass of Sweden's herd immunity argument well doesn't smell as bad as Belgium's disastrous attempt's to slay the covid dragon.Why don't you pick on Belgium they did twice as bad as Sweden.

Australia and New Zealand took action. They are about to open to each other and our economy is bouncing back fast. I live freely. Something worked. Masks, lockdown, whatever. Yes it had a price but what an outcome with a vaccine not far away. Frightened rabbits? No. Fearless leaders using science as a guide and getting the people on side for a successful outcome. 

I don't know about Belgium but it appears it has a divided government, no consensus and they have avoided lockdowns. OK I just read that somewhere. Doesn't help being in an area of Europe with many coming and going.  The fact is if they copied Australia and New Zealand they would surely have to have the same outcome. 

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Can you provide a link to a study which proves your claim that masks stop the spread of the virus and not just slow it's progress other wise your claim is not correct according to your rule..My lungs breath in a certain amount of air as well as dispelling a similar quantity same as most people wether wearing a mask or not,if there are virus particles present they will also go in and out with the breath so I can't quite picture where the virus gets stopped because the virus can get in.Yes you the man to go to if in need of a credible source and I'm still waiting for the requested list of credible sources and who gives the credit to these sources.

Do you have to keep displaying your ignorance? AFAIK there are a number of videos on Youtube illustrating how masks limit the spread with infected persons, and how uninfected persons get a lesser level of protection. Or if you want a credible source, this is about as credible as it gets, no-one gets published in Nature without being peer-reviewed to a fare-thee-well.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-17922-x

 

The virus travels from an infected person via coughing and sneezing, whereby DROPLETS of liquid with the virus attached travel at various distances. The proposition an individual virus particle is traveling in and out of infected and uninfected people's lungs is just absurd.

Similarly, your description of Australians as frightened rabbits is way off the mark. We just happen to be more sensible. There are quite a few British and American senior military personnel who like having us on their side.

If you are one of these selfish individuals who doesn't want to wear a mask because you find it inconvenient, why not just say so?

[FarFlungFalang]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

Do you have to keep displaying your ignorance? AFAIK there are a number of videos on Youtube illustrating how masks limit the spread with infected persons, and how uninfected persons get a lesser level of protection. Or if you want a credible source, this is about as credible as it gets, no-one gets published in Nature without being peer-reviewed to a fare-thee-well.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-17922-x

 

The virus travels from an infected person via coughing and sneezing, whereby DROPLETS of liquid with the virus attached travel at various distances. The proposition an individual virus particle is traveling in and out of infected and uninfected people's lungs is just absurd.

Similarly, your description of Australians as frightened rabbits is way off the mark. We just happen to be more sensible. There are quite a few British and American senior military personnel who like having us on their side.

If you are one of these selfish individuals who doesn't want to wear a mask because you find it inconvenient, why not just say so?

 

1 hour ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Posted 1 hour ago

The fear maybe with all these cheap masks going around. I was in Macro the other day and this girl in front of me a t check out wearing a mask sneezed and half of her nose juice came on my arm. She did say she was sorry!

I posted another example of a mask in action at a Macro checkout line.There is also the fact of aerosolization that means the virus can travel much further and stay in the air much longer.

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

The proposition an individual virus particle is traveling in and out of infected and uninfected people's lungs is just absurd.

Where did you get that notion from?Do you mean you can track the path of individual virus particles?What is it you think an individual virus particle does do?Do you mean it's impossible for and individual viral particle to enter someone's lungs and then get exhaled in the next breath?Do you know how small these particles are?I prefer to not wear a mask as the are statistically useless as the above example clearly demonstrates.Try post a link to one of the youtube vids and see how long it lasts before being removed as an unapproved source providing misleading info.

Edited December 14, 2020 by FarFlungFalang

[FarFlungFalang]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

If you are one of these selfish individuals who doesn't want to wear a mask

We have a fish farm and sometimes I'm sell fish but I don't see what that has to do with masks.????

[Lacessit]

2 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

 

I posted another example of a mask in action at a Macro checkout line.There is also the fact of aerosolization that means the virus can travel much further and stay in the air much longer.

Where did you get that notion from?Do you mean you can track the path of individual virus particles?What is it you think an individual virus particle does do?Do you mean it's impossible for and individual viral particle to enter someone's lungs and then get exhaled in the next breath?Do you know how small these particles are?I prefer to not wear a mask as the are statistically useless as the above example clearly demonstrates.Try post a link to one of the youtube vids and see how long it lasts before being removed as an unapproved source providing misleading info.

The coronavirus, to be accurate, ranges from 60 to 140 nanometers in size. The Brownian motion threshold is 100 nanometres.

Try to think of it this way. How far can you throw a cricket ball, and how far can you throw a grain of rice? The virus has to be attached to a droplet of body fluid to be projected any distance at all.

Thanks for confirming you are one of those people that don't care if they infect others, and no lame quips about selling fish can alter the fact you are part of the problem, which is playing out so badly in America.

 

 

 

[rabas]

3 hours ago, Lacessit said:

The virus travels from an infected person via coughing and sneezing, whereby DROPLETS of liquid with the virus attached travel at various distances. The proposition an individual virus particle is traveling in and out of infected and uninfected people's lungs is just absurd.

Sure they do! reference

 

"During tidal breathing, 99.9% of total exhaled particle production consisted of particles measuring less than 1µm in diameter, which confirmed findings from previous studies."  "75% below 0.5μm in diameter."   So, many virus size particles are not uncommon.

 

How? See this image in this paper.  The tiny tubes to your alveoli repeatedly collapse and rip open causing spray.  This is from deep in your lungs where Covid-19 lives.

 

2 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Do you know how small these particles are?I prefer to not wear a mask as the are statistically useless as the above example clearly demonstrates.

About 0.12μm. But an N95 mask stops most all of these particles. The  most penetrable particle is actually 0.3μm, 0.12μm less so.  Of course,  cloth masks block significantly less but are good for the gooey stuff.

 

But bottom line,  protection doesn't rely on any one thing, everything helps to reduce the probability of getting infected. Usually I wear a surgical mask when needed but in a hospital when SARS2 is around  I will wear a well fitting N95 mask, wash hands, and keep my amulet near.

 

 

[rabas]

20 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Try to think of it this way. How far can you throw a cricket ball, and how far can you throw a grain of rice? The virus has to be attached to a droplet of body fluid to be projected any distance at all.

They can easily follow air flow. They can hang in the air in a lift. One hospital study demonstrated SARS1 viruses floating out of patients' rooms and landing on objects in the hall way, nursing stations. This is called aerosol and why airborne in a big concern.

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by rabas

[Jeffr2]

14 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

 

I posted another example of a mask in action at a Macro checkout line.There is also the fact of aerosolization that means the virus can travel much further and stay in the air much longer.

Where did you get that notion from?Do you mean you can track the path of individual virus particles?What is it you think an individual virus particle does do?Do you mean it's impossible for and individual viral particle to enter someone's lungs and then get exhaled in the next breath?Do you know how small these particles are?I prefer to not wear a mask as the are statistically useless as the above example clearly demonstrates.Try post a link to one of the youtube vids and see how long it lasts before being removed as an unapproved source providing misleading info.

Please, stop with the mask fake information.  It doesn't help. 

 

YouTube vids are mostly fake.  Sad you fall for them.

[Jeffr2]

Maybe this will help for those who deny masks work.  Stunning...

 

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/health/2020/11/11/which-masks-work-best-coronavirus-cdc-guidance-todd-tsr-pkg-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/coronavirus/

[Lacessit]

11 hours ago, rabas said:

Sure they do! reference

 

"During tidal breathing, 99.9% of total exhaled particle production consisted of particles measuring less than 1µm in diameter, which confirmed findings from previous studies."  "75% below 0.5μm in diameter."   So, many virus size particles are not uncommon.

 

How? See this image in this paper.  The tiny tubes to your alveoli repeatedly collapse and rip open causing spray.  This is from deep in your lungs where Covid-19 lives.

 

About 0.12μm. But an N95 mask stops most all of these particles. The  most penetrable particle is actually 0.3μm, 0.12μm less so.  Of course,  cloth masks block significantly less but are good for the gooey stuff.

 

But bottom line,  protection doesn't rely on any one thing, everything helps to reduce the probability of getting infected. Usually I wear a surgical mask when needed but in a hospital when SARS2 is around  I will wear a well fitting N95 mask, wash hands, and keep my amulet near.

 

 

The article cited is not peer-reviewed. Be that as it may, there seems to be an underlying assumption an individual virus is immortal. It's not.

We seem to be in agreement preventative measures are worth doing, and certainly in countries that have adopted that regimen from the outset, the infection rates and deaths per million are far lower.

I'm objecting to FFF's statement masks and lockdowns are useless, because the data says otherwise.

[mommysboy]

12 hours ago, rabas said:

They can easily follow air flow. They can hang in the air in a lift. One hospital study demonstrated SARS1 viruses floating out of patients' rooms and landing on objects in the hall way, nursing stations. This is called aerosol and why airborne in a big concern.

 

 

Yeah, there's an easy experiment: get a smoker or vaper to exhale through a surgical mask. If you're still not convinced get him to mimic a sneeze.  

 

For sure, it will prevent direct infection from a full face on sneeze, but let's consider how many times that happens in reality.  It's like the smoker who walks up and blows smoke in your face- it just doesn't happen these days.

 

I think a person wearing a mask does tell you that this person is aware of his/her health as well as that of other people.  So for me it's more behavioral than scientific, yet it is useful.

Edited December 15, 2020 by mommysboy

[Jeffr2]

5 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

Yeah, there's an easy experiment: get a smoker or vaper to exhale through a surgical mask. If you're still not convinced get him to mimic a sneeze.  

Smoke is not water droplets.  You can't compare the two, though many fake videos on YouTube try.  Don't fall for it.

 

Look at my link above for the best experiment.

[rabas]

50 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

The article cited is not peer-reviewed. Be that as it may, there seems to be an underlying assumption an individual virus is immortal. It's not.

I quoted the peer reviewed article "Characteristics of exhaled particle production in healthy volunteers: possible implications for infectious disease transmission", reviewed by two reviewers on January 28 and Feb 7, 2013.  Note also they said the information is known and agrees with other studies.

 

There was no assumed immortality of viral particles and their activity life times are the subject of many studies. But yes we otherwise agree that masks can be helpful.

[mommysboy]

4 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Smoke is not water droplets.  You can't compare the two, though many fake videos on YouTube try.  Don't fall for it.

 

Look at my link above for the best experiment.

 

Well try it! The concern you will see is that vape (water vapour/aerosol) or smoke pours out at the edges.  It aint airtight mate that's for sure.

 

Yes, there must be some benefit, simply because you don't get hit direct and of course if both of you are in masks then that helps double.  But remember masks trap viral particles too, so you'd need to be changing your mask very frequently- once, twice, ten times a day maybe.

Edited December 15, 2020 by mommysboy

[from the home of CC]

arrogant fools. I sure hope those who dispatched the angels of death to care homes with doses of morphine pay for it with their freedom..

[placeholder]

15 hours ago, mommysboy said:

 

Well try it! The concern you will see is that vape (water vapour/aerosol) or smoke pours out at the edges.  It aint airtight mate that's for sure.

 

Yes, there must be some benefit, simply because you don't get hit direct and of course if both of you are in masks then that helps double.  But remember masks trap viral particles too, so you'd need to be changing your mask very frequently- once, twice, ten times a day maybe.

Masks Have Helped To Blunt the COVID-19 Pandemic in Kansas

There's more evidence that community use of facial coverings is an effective tool for curbing COVID-19 transmission.

Masks Have Helped To Blunt the COVID-19 Pandemic in Kansas – Reason.com

 

Mask Mandates Work To Slow Spread Of Coronavirus, Kansas Study Finds

The CDC and the Kansas Department of Health and Environment analyzed trends in county-level cases before the mandate went into effect and two months afterward. Though rates were considerably higher in the 24 counties that required masks, over the two-month study period they brought the growth of cases under control and even reduced them. The counties that didn't require masks continued to see their cases increase.

Mask Mandates Help Slow Coronavirus Spread, CDC Study Finds : Shots - Health News : NPR

[FarFlungFalang]

On 12/14/2020 at 9:59 PM, Lacessit said:

The virus has to be attached to a droplet of body fluid to be projected any distance at all.

It is now commonly accepted that the virus has airborne capabilities,so instead of a cricket ball and grain of rice think of a cricket ball and grains of dust in a wind storm,the cricket ball hardly moves at all but the dust can travel immense distances and can get into the tiniest of cracks and crevasses.So your statement that the virus needs droplets to travel is completely false.You really need to take Jeff2's advice and get a better source.   

[Jeffr2]

6 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

It is now commonly accepted that the virus has airborne capabilities,so instead of a cricket ball and grain of rice think of a cricket ball and grains of dust in a wind storm,the cricket ball hardly moves at all but the dust can travel immense distances and can get into the tiniest of cracks and crevasses.So your statement that the virus needs droplets to travel is completely false.You really need to take Jeff2's advice and get a better source.   

But he's spot on.  You're analogy doesn't make sense.

[FarFlungFalang]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

Masks Have Helped To Blunt the COVID-19 Pandemic in Kansas

There's more evidence that community use of facial coverings is an effective tool for curbing COVID-19 transmission.

Masks Have Helped To Blunt the COVID-19 Pandemic in Kansas – Reason.com

 

Mask Mandates Work To Slow Spread Of Coronavirus, Kansas Study Finds

The CDC and the Kansas Department of Health and Environment analyzed trends in county-level cases before the mandate went into effect and two months afterward. Though rates were considerably higher in the 24 counties that required masks, over the two-month study period they brought the growth of cases under control and even reduced them. The counties that didn't require masks continued to see their cases increase.

Mask Mandates Help Slow Coronavirus Spread, CDC Study Finds : Shots - Health News : NPR

I agree with the following quote from one of the linked articles.

 

"Carroll cautions that this was not a randomized, controlled study and there could have been other factors at play (such as more physical distancing in social situations and fewer large gatherings) in the counties that were enforcing masks."

[FarFlungFalang]

5 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

But he's spot on.  You're analogy doesn't make sense.

Yes my analogy that the virus floats in the wind like dust doesn't makes sense to some few and I'm glad I'm not one of the few who can't grasp such a simple idea.

[Jeffr2]

Just now, FarFlungFalang said:

Yes my analogy that the virus floats in the wind like dust doesn't makes sense to some few and I'm glad I'm not one of the few who can't grasp such a simple idea.

Yeah, trying to compare dust to water droplets is such an easy stretch!