เจ้ากรรมนายเวร Spiritual Creditor

[Neeranam]

Interesting stuff from a book "The Law of Karma Is Always Fair" by Benjawan Poomsan

 

ความเชื่อแบบไทยๆ Thai Belief: เจ้ากรรมนายเวร Spiritual Creditor (jâo-gam-naai-ween)

"People that come into your life are your jâo-gam-naai-ween, or, in other words, the people to whom you have done wrong to in a previous life, or even in this current life. "คนที่เข้ามาในชีวิตของเรานั้นเป็นเจ้ากรรมนายเวรของเราเอง หรือพูดง่ายๆ ก็คือคนที่เราไปทำไม่ดีกับเขาในชาติก่อนหรือชาตินี้

"Everybody has their own jâo-gam-naai-ween. ทุกคนมีเจ้ากรรมนายเวรของตัวเอง Some people may have many, and some only a few. บางคนมีมาก บางคนมีน้อย

"We have unpaid debts, or atonement, that need to be resolved from our previous lives. "เวลาที่เรามีหนี้หรืออะไรที่ยังไม่ได้ชดใช้จากชาติก่อน

"These souls have hatred, a feeling of malice and revenge, which needs to be released, by getting back at you. "วิญญาณที่เต็มไปด้วยความเกลียดชัง ความอาฆาตพยาบาทก็จะตามรังควาญเพื่อมาเอาคืน

"If the karma of their experience is not resolved in this lifetime, they'll follow you to the next life, until all the debt is resolved. "หากยังไม่ได้สะสางกันในชาตินี้ เจ้ากรรมนายเวรก็จะติดตามไปในชาติต่อๆ ไป จนกว่าหนี้กรรมจะถูกชำระจนหมดสิ้นไป

"You are also a jâo-gam-naai-ween of someone else. เราเองก็อาจจะเป็นเจ้ากรรมนายเวรของคนอื่นได้ "During your life, you'll come into situations in which people want to do something bad to you, and there appears to be no real reason or justification. "ในช่วงชีวิตของเรา เราจะเจอสถานการณ์ที่อยู่ดีๆ มีคนมาทำไม่ดีกับเรา หลายครั้งก็ดูเหมือนว่าไม่มีเหตุผล หรือคำอธิบายใดๆ

"Family members, close friends, husband or wife, it could be anyone. For example, a mother fights with her own daughter all the time, even though she loves her, and tries to treat her well. "คนๆ นั้นอาจจะเป็นคนในครอบครัว เพื่อนสนิท ผัวเมีย หรือใครก็ได้ เช่น บางคนอาจจะทะเลาะกับลูกสาวของตัวเองอยู่ตลอด แม้ว่าจะรักลูกและปฏิบัติต่อลูกดีแค่ไหนก็ตาม

"Maybe the relationship between a husband and wife doesn't go well, even if they try their best. ความสัมพันธ์ระหว่างเราและคู่สมรสอาจจะเป็นไปอย่างไม่สู้ดีนัก ทั้งๆ ที่พยายามทำให้ดีที่สุดกันแล้ว Perhaps you just mention something insignificant to your friend, but she slaps your face, and never talks to you again. บางครั้งเราอาจเผลอพูดอะไรที่ไม่มีนัยสำคัญอะไรเลยกับเพื่อน แต่เพื่อนคนนั้นกลับเดินมาตบหน้าเราและไม่พูดกับเราอีกเลยไปทั้งชีวิต

"In all of these situations, it's probably because it is time for them to get their payback from you." เมื่อสถานการณ์ต่างๆ เหล่านี้เกิดขึ้น ก็อาจเป็นไปได้ว่าถึงเวลาที่พวกเขาเหล่านั้นตามมาทวงหนี้คืนแล้ว" My wise grandma told me this. ยายผู้ทรงปัญญาได้บอกกับฉันไว้ It is something I will never forget. เป็นสิ่งที่ฉันจะไม่มีวันลืม

จากบทที่ห้า เจ้ากรรมนายเวร ของหนังสือชื่อ กฎแห่งกรรมยุติธรรมเสมอ From Chapter 5 Payback Time of the book "The Law of Karma Is Always Fair" by Benjawan Poomsan

[tgeezer]

Thanks for posting, it kept me off You Tube and the US election farce for some time, in fact I haven't gone back to it yet.  I would love to discuss some of the translations with you, and others of course.  I remember the writer, also Mary Haas of about the same era, dictionaries and instructional books being their business. 

I have been looking for รังควาญ not in The dictionary,  but was told that it means รำคัญ รบกวน etc. To trouble someone or bring trouble.  Having worked out that in a battle the mahoot's position was not the best place to be so to be given that role (รังควาญ)might be seen as less than favourable.  I discovered that the spelling is wrong and รังควาน is in The dictionary ก. รบกวนทำรำคัญหรือเดือดร้อน !  
 

A Friend told me that unlike what he believed of America, a Buddhist doesn't need a personal analyst because they knew that all trouble and hardship can be explained and purged by ทำบุญที่วัด 

Visiting วัด is something I find myself doing frequently with friends every time we go up country. I have learned to act naturally in a วัด. The discipline required in church is not necessary there I find.  When after some time, the pain I was experiencing in trying to stay in the cross legged position I had decided to adopt out of reverence and to fit in was noticed by the ภิกษุ, he broke off from his words of wisdom and advised me to change position.  Very thoughtful of him I felt. 

[Neeranam]

Interesting. I found out that  รังควาน means ผีที่ประจำช้างป่า( spirit of a wild elephant).

 

On a side note, do you have any idea why  ภิกษุ is transliterated as Bhikku? Maybe an alternative spelling.  I'm not really a Buddhist but did do a retreat in the 90's for 10 days at Wat Suan Mohk, the temple of the revered monk Buddhadassa Bhikku พุทธทาสภิกขุ

 

 

[talahtnut]

Through personal experience, I am sure Karma exists in the same way as the laws of physics.

I have never seen the sense of religious dogma, so meeting Buddhism 20 years ago I was

immediatly attracted to the Bhuddhist psychology, which I believe should be the universal

way forward.

[Neeranam]

7 hours ago, talahtnut said:

Through personal experience, I am sure Karma exists in the same way as the laws of physics.

I have never seen the sense of religious dogma, so meeting Buddhism 20 years ago I was

immediatly attracted to the Bhuddhist psychology, which I believe should be the universal

way forward.

Absolutely, like the Laws of Thermodynamics; energy can not be created nor destroyed, there is an equal but opposite reaction, etc.

 

Buddhism has Dogma?

Of course it is everyone's right to believe in what they want and  I completely respect everyone's beliefs. But if someone labels them self Buddhist and chooses to then not accept a core teaching of the Buddha such as karma or rebirth, then do they not then practice their own Dharma and not the one Buddha taught.

I did a retreat in Dharmasala, India. I experienced instant Karma there, also saw proof of reincarnation. This Buddhism is very different from Theravada. 

[faraday]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

experienced instant Karma there, also saw proof of reincarnation. This Buddhism

 

I' m very interested in learning more about your spiritual experiences, which you have mentioned before.

 

Will you post them please?

 

 

[Neeranam]

19 minutes ago, faraday said:

 

I' m very interested in learning more about your spiritual experiences, which you have mentioned before.

 

Will you post them please?

 

 

Regarding Karma, I visited a retreat centre in Darmasala, India. This is where HH the Dalai Lama lives and I was very fortunate to meet him. After 13 days in the retreat, he had an audience with us. We were allowed to ask him questions, so I had two, which were about emptiness. As soon as I shook his hand and he gave me a necklace, I knew the answers to the questions immediately, without asking! He had a tremendous aura and my friend and I were in a state of bliss for about 3 days; we couldn't stop smiling and many thought we were on drugs. 

 

We had a visit from a very senior Lama, who had not had much contact with Westerners. Someone asked a question about Karma and the translator said that many Westerners don't believe in Karma. I still remember his complete shock and laughter. 

There was an Israeli girl who sat at the front of the room. She asked some questions in a rather rude way, almost shouting. One question was "why do monks eat meat, they are like pigs?". At the end of the questions, we had a meditation and there was a loud grunting noise coming from the front. We were ll amazed as this girl had fallen over and was lying on her side, snoring which sounded like a pig. When the Lama left, a seior monk said to be careful when criticizing the monks/Buddhism.

When we were there, a nun from England joined us. She had just spent 12 years in isolation in a cave in the mountains. She was obviously enlightened and light shone from her.

Talking about light, I also met a senior yogini in Mount Abu. She gave us 'Drishti', which means to sit looking at each others forehead, where the soul sits. This was the most profound spiritual experience I have ever had. I was in Nirvana/heaven, soft golden/red light of a great intensity. I tried to focus on her face but whatever I tried I couldn't see it. It was incredible, she really didn't have a head that could be seen, just a source emitting waves of light.

Also in Darmasala, there was a Spanish boy who was about 6 years old. He was tested and proved to be the reincarnation of a Lama. This was done by him choosing several objects which had belonged to the Lama. 

So many other great experiences, like getting off a train in a city and walking through a park where a beggar shouted out "hello Mr. Neeranam". I was intrigued and he went on to tell me my future and past, but that's all for now. 

[tgeezer]

Returning to language if I may.

Neeranam , does your name have a Thai spelling?  
 

13 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Interesting. I found out that  รังควาน means ผีที่ประจำช้างป่า( spirit of a wild elephant).

 

On a side note, do you have any idea why  ภิกษุ is transliterated as Bhikku? Maybe an alternative spelling.  I'm not really a Buddhist but did do a retreat in the 90's for 10 days at Wat Suan Mohk, the temple of the revered monk Buddhadassa Bhikku พุทธทาสภิกขุ

 

 

That is the second definition of รังควาน as a noun ผีที่ประจำช้างป่า, ผีตายร้ายที่สิงอยู่ในคนได้  

In the piece you posted I think that a verb is required ...ตามรังควาญเพื่อ.... 

 

I chose ภิกษุ suspecting that I should have *written พระ because as I understand it บวช is what a ภิกษุ is doing, which would mean that he is not a full monk. 
พุทธทาสภิกขุ is a proper name and as you know names are chosen.  ทาส is servant or one who chooses to surrender his power to something else, slave is common usage, and ภิกขุ is another spelling of ภิกษุ 
Why would ภิกขุ be chosen? Anybody's guess, mine is that in This context, he wasn't always a senior monk and never will be The พระ . Like an Archbishop might refer to himself as Servant of God. 

 

The man who formulated the Thai grammar in 1918 AD was พระยา Prince อุปกิตศิลปสาร อุป close to, กินตี praise ศ ลป skill สาร substance of the story.   Those are just my guesses. 
The writer of my modern grammar book has the family name พันธเมธา her father was a professor.  พันธ์ to be bound เมธา = ความรู้ ฉลาด it sounds academic, in the way that พุทธทาสภิกขุ is religious 

Other people are entitled to see it in other ways. 
 

*edit: Replaced  wrote with written,  both sound alright to me but may as well try to learn some English while I am here!  Does anyone know which is correct and why? 

Edited December 12, 2020 by tgeezer

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, tgeezer said:

Returning to language if I may.

Neeranam , does your name have a Thai spelling?  
 

*edit: Replaced  wrote with written,  both sound alright to me but may as well try to learn some English while I am here!  Does anyone know which is correct and why? 

My name - นิรนาม

 

Will talk about the language later but for now -  Should have + past participle

1: Should have + past participle can mean something that would have been a good idea, but that you didn't do it. It's like giving advice about the past when you say it to someone else, or regretting what you did or didn't do when you're talking about yourself.

Shouldn't have + past participle means that something wasn't a good idea, but you did it anyway.

• I should have studied harder! (= I didn't study very hard and so I failed the exam. I'm sorry about this now.)
• I should have gone to bed early (= I didn't go to bed early and now I'm tired).
• I shouldn't have eaten so much cake! (= I did eat a lot of cake and now I don't feel good.)
• You should have called me when you arrived (= you didn't call me and I was worried. I wish that you had called me).
• John should have left early, then he wouldn't have missed the plane (= but he didn't leave early and so he did miss the plane).

2: We can also use should have + past participle to talk about something that, if everything is normal and okay, we think has already happened. But we're not certain that everything is fine, so we use 'should have' and not the present perfect or past simple. It's often used with 'by now'.

• His plane should have arrived by now (= if everything is fine, the plane has arrived).
• John should have finished work by now (= if everything is normal, John has finished work).

We can also use this to talk about something that would have happened if everything was fine, but hasn't happened.

• Lucy should have arrived by now, but she hasn't.

[tgeezer]

Thanks for doing that but  I was interested in the past tense of write, wrote or written!  I discover that they are both acceptable being derived from the archaic form writ.  The major advantage that Thai has in being an "Isolating language" is that we don't have these problems. 
 

[tgeezer]

I have just had a very nice chat with my interlocutor. 
I liked his explanation of ตักบาทรอย่าถามพระ  Monks are supposed to free themselves of desire so asking puts them in the position of making a choice which is to desire.  
I wrote ขี้เหนี่ยว, the term is ขี้เหนียว .  I looked it up too, เหนี่ยว รั้งไว้ etc.  and saw it as hanging on to their money whereas it should have been money sticking to their fingers. Other interpretations are allowed! 

His explanation of พุทธทาส is similar to mine.  
 For พันธุ in พันธุเมธา he saw พันธ์ species .  
In มวยวัด , วัด can be seen as the noun.  Temple fairs might have a boxing ring for people to take part in, they would be inexpert.  It was interesting to learn that he hadn't seen วัด as a verb and perhaps it isn't.  *
Your name  นิรนาม is a word as well, ไม่รู้ว่าชื่ออะไร 

*มวยวัด is in my reply to the topic about street fighting. 

Edited December 12, 2020 by tgeezer

[JHicks]

  

17 hours ago, Neeranam said:

On a side note, do you have any idea why  ภิกษุ is transliterated as Bhikku? Maybe an alternative spelling.  I'm not really a Buddhist but did do a retreat in the 90's for 10 days at Wat Suan Mohk, the temple of the revered monk Buddhadassa Bhikku พุทธทาสภิกขุ

 

Some sources say Bhikku is Pali while Bhiksu is Sanksrit, but the RID says that both words belong to both languages. The Pali texts from Sri Lanka appear to use Bhikkhu (based on the transliterations into English and Thai), so I don't know why Bhiksu is preferred in the Thai translation. It may be a legacy from an earlier period when Mahayana Buddhism was dominant.

 

4 hours ago, tgeezer said:

I chose ภิกษุ suspecting that I should have *written พระ because as I understand it บวช is what a ภิกษุ is doing, which would mean that he is not a full monk. 
...

*edit: Replaced  wrote with written,  both sound alright to me but may as well try to learn some English while I am here!  Does anyone know which is correct and why? 

 

2 hours ago, tgeezer said:

Thanks for doing that but  I was interested in the past tense of write, wrote or written!  I discover that they are both acceptable being derived from the archaic form writ.
 

 

Yes, but I think the point was that this doesn't apply after a modal like will or should. These words have to be followed by an infinitive, and an infinitive can't mark tense by definition, so for the past you use have (in the infinitive) plus the past participle. That gives you "should have written". It's not the same construction as "I have written", where the "have" is not an infinitive (you can tell because it doesn't change in the third person - we say "he should have written a book", not "he should has written a book").

[tgeezer]

This is interesting, but you must know that the modern form is to use the preposition "of" ; I should of written!  I mention it only to show that language changes and even an expert linguist can't justify the changes.  My appetite  to know the difference between wrote and written is sated now, thanks. 
I am surprised that people don't seem to be interested in the Thai cultural aspects of my posts or the interpretations.  I know now that พระ is shorthand for ภิกษุ so my post was alright.  
 

[tgeezer]

On 12/12/2020 at 8:45 AM, Neeranam said:

My name - นิรนาม

A name doesn't have to mean anything Neeranam, I pointed out that the spelling you gave is a word whereas the English spelling indicates นีรนาม which has no meaning although it might be fun to give it a meaning, นีร- meaning นำ้ . นีรจร fish or other water creatures. 
 I must say chaps I do enjoy these posts, I am learning a lot.  I am lucky in that although I am prevented from being in Bangkok I have you to discuss Thai with. I see that I have confused the posts somewhat, this is due to the fact that I also have someone willing to discuss Thai on the Facetime so naturally the questions I have come from all the current topics, I hope that it isn't too annoying. 

I have some questions on the original piece by Benjawan Poonsan is anyone interested? 

Edited December 13, 2020 by tgeezer

[Neeranam]

6 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

A name doesn't have to mean anything Neeranam, I pointed out that the spelling you gave is a word whereas the English spelling indicates นีรนาม which has no meaning although it might be fun to give it a meaning, นีร- meaning นำ้ . นีรจร fish or other water creatures. 
 I must say chaps I do enjoy these posts, I am learning a lot.  I am lucky in that although I am prevented from being in Bangkok I have you to discuss Thai with. I see that I have confused the posts somewhat, this is due to the fact that I also have someone willing to discuss Thai on the Facetime so naturally the questions I have come from all the current topics, I hope that it isn't too annoying. 
 

Thanks for explaining, I was a bit confused with some of your posts. 

 

I love discussing Thai language but have very little time these days, esp. Sat/Sun. 

 

Regarding my name, maybe I like a certain Thai singer, or want to be anonymous! How would you transcribe นิรนาม?

I think Neeranam is OK but maybe Niranam. 

 

 

Regarding Piksu, in English, when you spell a Sanskrit or Pali loanword, you will use its Pali or Sanskrit spelling instead of a transcription based on the pronunciation in modern Thai.

Copied online :-

Indic scripts are organized phonetically in a *grid* that shows the place where the sound is produced and how its produced. All Indic scripts are designed to accurately reflect all the sounds in Sanskrit (many of which don't exist in Thai, so you have ช,ฌ or ฑ,ฒ,ท,ธ, each of which is a different sound in Sanskrit)

* The rows indicate WHERE the sound is made:

----back of your mouth: k, kh, g, gh, ng

----palate: c, ch, j, jh, ñ

----tongue tip on the roof of the mouth: ṭ, ṭh, ḍ, ḍh, ṇ

----tongue tip on the back of your teeth: t, th, d, dh, n

----lips: p, ph, b, bh, m

* The columns indicate HOW the sound is made

---plosive: k, c, ṭ, t, p

---aspirated: kh, ch, ṭh, th, ph

---voiced: g, j, ḍ, d, b

--- voiced aspirated: gh, jh, ḍh, dh, bh

---nasal: ng, ñ, ṇ, n, m

-The sounds that in Sanskrit/Pali were voiced, voiced aspirated and nasal (g,gh,ng /j, jh, ñ /d, dh, n/ ḍ, ḍh, ṇ/ b, bh, m) correspond to Thai low class consonants

-The sounds that in Pali/Sanskrit were plosive (k, c, ṭ, t, p) are Thai middle class consonants

-The sounds that in Pali/Sanskrit were aspirated (kh, ch, ṭh, th, ph) correspond to Thai high class consonants

 

[Neeranam]

I forgot to add this. 

 

 

[JHicks]

5 hours ago, Neeranam said:

How would you transcribe นิรนาม?

I think Neeranam is OK but maybe Niranam. 

FWIW I think the way you've done it is better. Maybe it depends on your accent. I have heard quite a lot of the Australian accent recently and it's really struck me how they pronounce the vowel in words like bit very much like อิ. They have IPA [i] where I have IPA [ɪ] (I'm from the UK). I think that vowel is even more lax in most American accents, so even further from อิ. I'd say the sound is more important than the length so would go with ee. Of course if you ask someone who doesn't know any Thai to pronounce it it will still come out a fair way from นีรนาม, but that's transliteration for you.

 

I thought the issue with ภิกษุ was to do with the ending. I see that although the RID doesn't support Pali vs Sanskrit explanation, the Thai Wikipedia does.

 

I've come across that grid before and found it helpful when I was wondering why yoga is spelt with ค or why ญ is pronounced [y] when it is in final position.

 

What I don't know is how the sounds of Sanskrit relate to the sounds of English cognates. For example, the word candle comes from the root kand, which belonged to the last common ancestor of Sanskrit and English and meant to shine. Is that also the origin of จันทร์ in วันจันทร์? After all, ท represents Sanskrit [d], and the moon is your classic shiny thing.

[Neeranam]

I remember thinking the Thai spelling/pronunciation of Gandhi was very strange คานธี

When you spell a Sanskrit/Pali loan word, you use its Sanskrit/Pali spelling rather that a transcription based on the pronunciation in Thai.

 

 

[tgeezer]

นิรนาม   ว ไม่รู้ว่าชื่ออะไร   don't know what name. คนนิรนาม  "person whose name the writer doesn't know".  Anonymous you say but Thai has a good enough way of saying that without a word like นิรนาม don't you think? 
I know เข็มขัดนิรภัย from the car handbook so นิรนาม meaning could be guessed if encountered in a sentence I think. 
 

The Thai "alphabet" follows the same form as the Indic then.  I don't think that there is any difference in pronunciation between ณ and. น  in Thai but there may be for Thai Sanskrit scholars.  
It has been a long time and I don't have my book with me here but I remember a few Thai and some Sanskrit equivalents , หนัก เบา ธนิต ? ก้อง ไม่ก้อง โฆษะ อโฆษะ I think that ก้อง is explained by: to vibrate the vocal chords as in บ ใบไม้ and I could never see how that wasn't to simply make it second tone. ต เต่า similarly.  I can't remember the other terms or how they affect making the sounds.  I think that I am better at enunciation now than I was when I was taught. 

 

[JHicks]

1 hour ago, tgeezer said:

 I don't think that there is any difference in pronunciation between ณ and. น  in Thai but there may be for Thai Sanskrit scholars.

 

I was talking about ญ - why would it become /n/ in final position when /y/ is already a valid final? I think the table is helpful in answering questions like that.

 

โฆษะ and อโฆษะ are the Sanskrit equivalents of ก้อง and ไม่ก้อง

หนัก and เบา are aspirated and unaspirated

ธนิต is a new one on me but turns out to be the Pali equivalent of หนัก

 

I don't get what you mean about tone 2.

[tgeezer]

16 minutes ago, JHicks said:

 

I was talking about ญ - why would it become /n/ in final position when /y/ is already a valid final? I think the table is helpful in answering questions like that.

 

โฆษะ and อโฆษะ are the Sanskrit equivalents of ก้อง and ไม่ก้อง

หนัก and เบา are aspirated and unaspirated

ธนิต is a new one on me but turns out to be the Pali equivalent of หนัก

 

I don't get what you mean about tone 2.

I get "picked up" for my ต and I thought it was because my tongue was not on my teeth but it turned out to be that I wasn't vibrating my vocal cords enough. I meant tone 1 low tone, ต เต่า  I like to feel that I am being more correct by saying เอก โท ตรี จัตวา ! 

ธนิต is in The Dictionary and the consonants are listed, it means aspirated apparently. 

[JHicks]

ต is unvoiced though. ด is voiced but they're obviously the same class, so you get the same range of tones. The only relationship I can see in that area is that a voiced consonant will never be high class. It will be low if it is a sonorant and mid if it is a stop - but that still gives you all the tones.

 

I think you're right that it would be better to number the tones.

 

I think the problem that English speakers have with ต and ด is that English d is half way between them. d and ด are both classified as voiced stops, but that's not the end of the story because voicing works very differently in the two languages. English "voiced" stops are actually devoiced a lot of the time, and even when they're not, the voicing only kicks in right at the end and is fairly weak. Late onset voicing is very easy to miss because the vowel will be voiced anyway, so a lot depends on a tiny difference in timing. That's not a problem in English because there are no consonant pairs that only differ by voicing, so devoicing or weak voicing will never turn one consonant sound into another - but that's not true of many other languages, and those languages tend to have fuller voicing so that there is a clear contrast. French is an example - or Thai, more to the point. What that means is that in practice, ต has no voicing, d has partial late-onset voicing and ด has full early-onset voicing. That's not to say that voicing is the only difference between d and the Thai consonants, but I do think it's the most important one.

 

If you're interested in this sort of thing, you can download Praat which allows you to visualise the voicing (amongst other things). Hours of fun...

[tgeezer]

Sorry JHicks, I forgot the ย,ญ "problem."  
The problem is that ย ยักษ์ is not a closing consonant but a vowel symbol.   There are only nine pure vowels as you know but it seemed logical to show all the combinations as vowels: เอา (อะ+อว) ไ andใ (อะ+อย)     อำ (อะ+ม) being wrongly called a short vowel shows that perhaps we should not call the others short vowels so for determining tones they are live.  ไม้ เท้า etc. 
Is there some linguistic explanation in that when some English speakers see the word Pattaya they find a อัย there or am I stretching things?  

Edit: Thinking on what I wrote over my porridge I see that I missed อัว (อุ+อะ)  

Edited December 15, 2020 by tgeezer

[JHicks]

1 hour ago, tgeezer said:

The problem is that ย ยักษ์ is not a closing consonant but a vowel symbol.

I've seen final sounds like /y/ and /w/ called semivowels, but by the same token you can call them semiconsonants, and I'm sure I've read that they're called that in Spanish. They're really half way between the two. Probably they act more like vowels in some languages and more like consonants in others.

 

It's interesting that in Thai you often find syllables with vowel + /y/ or vowel + /w/, but that is always the end of the syllable. You don't get Thai words like เอาท or ไลน, and when that type of word is borrowed, the final consonant is not pronounced.

 

If you treat the /y/ and /w/ semivowels / semiconsonants as vowels, that is a complete mystery. There aren't any other vowel sounds that block final consonants, and that includes sounds that are made up of two separate vowels, as in ปวด.

 

On the other hand, if you treat them as consonants then a word like ไลน actually has two final consonants, and since it's a general rule that only one is allowed, it makes perfect sense that the second one is blocked.

 

Mainly for that reason, I think that final /w/ and /y/ are best analysed as consonants in Thai. That means that ไ is strictly speaking a vowel plus a consonant rather than just a vowel, but then the same is obviously true of อำ, so I don't think it's a problem. I guess they call them สระ because they are vowel symbols as opposed to consonant symbols that belong to the alphabet.

 

1 hour ago, tgeezer said:

อำ (อะ+ม) being wrongly called a short vowel shows that perhaps we should not call the others short vowels so for determining tones they are live.

 

I'd say the vowel element is usually short but sometimes long, but I don't think this can ever make a difference to the tone, because you'd need a further final consonant to bring those rules into play, and you'll never get one because it is blocked by the ย or ม.

 

1 hour ago, tgeezer said:

Is there some linguistic explanation in that when some English speakers see the word Pattaya they find a อัย there or am I stretching things?  

 

I'm not a qualified linguist, just an interested amateur. I think that when a syllable that ends in a vowel is followed by one beginning with /y/, the /y/ does colour the preceding vowel a bit, even in Thai. I agree that it happens more in English and I think there's a general pattern that English allows syllables to blend into each other quite easily whereas Thai prefers to keep them separate. In พัทยา the second /a/ is just a linker, which means it is short and unstressed and there's not much scope for it to be coloured by the /y/. On the other hand, in Pattaya it is a full stressed vowel, so the scope is much greater. When you combine that with the fact that English goes in for more colouring anyway, you get a much more noticeable effect.

[tgeezer]

I think that I am being more simplistic in my approach.  There is no such word as ไลน (ลัยน) probably because it is impossible to read. 
The interest I have is how to read a word and how to say it. Tone where not indicated by tone marks is determined by dead or live syllables, there is only one rule; dead syllables are defined, live syllables are those which are not dead.  So keeping things simple ไใ are not short vowels so the word ending in them is live.  

[Neeranam]

20 hours ago, tgeezer said:

นิรนาม   ว ไม่รู้ว่าชื่ออะไร   don't know what name. คนนิรนาม  "person whose name the writer doesn't know".  Anonymous you say but Thai has a good enough way of saying that without a word like นิรนาม don't you think? 
I know เข็มขัดนิรภัย from the car handbook so นิรนาม meaning could be guessed if encountered in a sentence I think. 

I means  anonymous, not so much that the name isn't known, but the person doesn't want others to know them, for example when donating something. 

 

I found the Red Cross use it -  anonymous clinic คลีนิคนิรนาม https://www.redcross.or.th/news/information/10144/

And also Alcoholics Anonymous - กลุ่มผู้ติดสุรานิรนาม https://mgronline.com/qol/detail/9510000153448

[JHicks]

1 hour ago, tgeezer said:

There is no such word as ไลน (ลัยน) probably because it is impossible to read. 

Well, I don't really see why it would be impossible to read but anyway I think the writing system always serves the spoken language and not the other way around. In other words, the rule that ไ can't have a final is telling us something - maybe something interesting - about the spoken language. Also, I don't know about your Thai friends but IME Thai speakers have a really hard time with English words like line or out, so I definitely think this restriction is built into their sound system. It's not surprising if it's reflected in the writing system, but I think it goes deeper than that.

 

I think you can simplify the rules even more and say a live syllable is one that doesn't have a stop. I'm not really getting that point though. The only relevance I can see is that the fact that ไ and ใ don't come in a short version with a built-in glottal stop means that they pattern with อำ, which is made up of a vowel and a live consonant ending, rather than with เอีย , เอือ and อัว, which are made up of two vowel sounds and do come in a short version with a glottal stop.

[tgeezer]

56 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I means  anonymous, not so much that the name isn't known, but the person doesn't want others to know them, for example when donating something. 

 

I found the Red Cross use it -  anonymous clinic คลีนิคนิรนาม https://www.redcross.or.th/news/information/10144/

And also Alcoholics Anonymous - กลุ่มผู้ติดสุรานิรนาม https://mgronline.com/qol/detail/9510000153448

True, but are you making an interpretation? Anonymous means of unknown name, the reason is not the definition. Anon on a book means that the reader doesn't know his/her name.  The name on the clinic is not in the role of an adjective.  The name says that attendees will be คนนิรนาม.  People see it as you do probably because นิรนาม used as an adjective has been used for many years in the translation of Alcoholics Anonymous. กลุ่มติดสุรานิรนาม .  
 

 

 

 

[tgeezer]

2 hours ago, JHicks said:

Well, I don't really see why it would be impossible to read but anyway I think the writing system always serves the spoken language and not the other way around. In other words, the rule that ไ can't have a final is telling us something - maybe something interesting - about the spoken language. Also, I don't know about your Thai friends but IME Thai speakers have a really hard time with English words like line or out, so I definitely think this restriction is built into their sound system. It's not surprising if it's reflected in the writing system, but I think it goes deeper than that.

 

I think you can simplify the rules even more and say a live syllable is one that doesn't have a stop. I'm not really getting that point though. The only relevance I can see is that the fact that ไ and ใ don't come in a short version with a built-in glottal stop means that they pattern with อำ, which is made up of a vowel and a live consonant ending, rather than with เอีย , เอือ and อัว, which are made up of two vowel sounds and do come in a short version with a glottal stop.

This is an interesting topic. When I first set out to explain the problem of ไม้ needing ไม้โท when we were taught that ไ is a short vowel I thought that I had to fudge it but as I wrote I saw that it was logical as I think you will agree.  

When I first learnt, I was told that there were six endings k,p,t,m,n,g and it wasn't until I started reading Thai that I learned that there are three more แม่ก.กา , แม่เกอว, แม่เกย so the real answer to your question is ย is not in the family of แม่ กน is because it belongs to แม่เกย  in fact the only child! 
It doesn't come naturally to a native Thai speaker to say "line" because the ending comes before the closing consonant. Out is unnatural for similar reasons, แม่กด is not แม่ดา . Thais have to learn only that they must say dead endings live and they have no trouble. Italian makes it easy for them. 
 

I think that it is more logical to define dead words because of the effect that they have on tones of low class consonants both with tone markers and without. 
 

ไทย is an interesting word which I can't explain. 
 

edit: I have just noticed that I said in my earlier post that  ย ยักษ์ was a vowel symbol so the ending was live. I see from what I have written here that it is a closing consonant.  That doesn't change the fact of it being a live ending but it does show that only in เอีย is ย a vowel symbol I think. The place where the "glide" from อี to อา produces ย . 
I am relearning lots! 

Edited December 15, 2020 by tgeezer

[Neeranam]

19 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

1 hour ago, tgeezer said:

True, but are you making an interpretation? Anonymous means of unknown name, the reason is not the definition. Anon on a book means that the reader doesn't know his/her name.  The name on the clinic is not in the role of an adjective.  The name says that attendees will be คนนิรนาม.  People see it as you do probably because นิรนาม used as an adjective has been used for many years in the translation of Alcoholics Anonymous. กลุ่มติดสุรานิรนาม .  

  ไทย is an interesting word which I can't explain.

 

Regarding Anonymous, I would offer  ไม่ระบุชื่อ as authour unknown. 

 

ไทย is an intersting word.  I've heard some foreigners say that ผัดไทย means "fried freedom"  ???? when it obviously(well to me as I used to teach Thai history at high school) means noodles of the people. ไท means คน, in the past  Paw Piboonsongkhram invented Phad Tai ผัดไท in 1932 when Nationalism/Protectionism were rampant, especially among some of his cronies in Europe. It was to encourage Thais to not eat Chinese noodles, in an act of Deglobalisation, similar to Hitler and the car of the people, Volkswagen. many Pad Thai stall do omit the ย.