Sadly amusing to see that the "debate" has not altered much !

Well done Boris for achieving a deal  with a  Sunday to  spare!

Now that (as a previous poster put it) the end of the beginning is done and the term "Brexit" is redundant no doubt the customary wrangles of opinion will surface yet as to the impact but hopefully under a new title!

Four years of  media bashing needs the change.

My prediction is that UK defenders and dissenters will find some common ground in the rough ride ahead as the pinch is applied !

Good Luck and Seasons Greetings .

 

 

 

 

 

Let the games begin

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/24/borisjohnsons-vows-to-pit-uk-against-eu-in-race-for-success?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

from the above

 

“In a sign of battles to come, representatives of the fishing industry said it was “bitterly disappointed” with what Johnson described as a “prodigious” increase in the amount of fish the UK could land.

 

Barrie Deas, head of the National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations, said Johnson had had his “Ted Heath moment” – a reference to his predecessor giving away fishing rights in British waters in 1973. A transition period of five-and-a-half years to phase in changes, with the UK accepting a 25% repatriation of quotas, amounted to “justice deferred, justice denied”, he said.”

42 minutes ago, John Drake said:

That doesn't even begin to make sense. You can't go to another country in the world if your home country is not a member of the EU? What is your home country?

It seems many Brexiters want that their home country is protected against all those bad foreigners and the bad foreign influence.

And this being a forum mostly for people living in Thailand many of those Brexiters also demand that they can live in Thailand without any restrictions. They don't like visa regulation, property restrictions, etc.

Summary: Give me everything I want everywhere in this world. And restrict all those others. What an interesting philosophy...

 

Probably all agreed months ago and waiting until the last minute to go public. ????

Just sayin'.

5 minutes ago, overherebc said:

 

Probably all agreed months ago and waiting until the last minute to go public. ????

Just sayin'.

Not too sure about that, it seems when they found a way to get Mr Macron out of the precedings and his attempt to steamroller the talks things started to go a little smoother. He was released from quarentine yesterday just in time for Christmas, coincidence......we may never know.

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

Not too sure about that, it seems when they found a way to get Mr Macron out of the precedings and his attempt to steamroller the talks things started to go a little smoother. He was released from quarentine yesterday just in time for Christmas, coincidence......we may never know.

Could be.

But... but... the Eurovision Song Contest? We had to stay in order to take part as a full and equal member. Now we'll be optional. We won in 1967, 1969, 1976, 1981 and 1997 and we could have won again! I admit that the past 20 years have been rocky, but we were coming back! We were contenders! We were... were... macro-biotic... vegan... ISO-9000... were...$%#@(&#... were...

 

I'm sorry. My Auto-Sarcasm emitter has malfunctioned. Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible... NURSE! More medication please!

7 minutes ago, Narratio said:

But... but... the Eurovision Song Contest? We had to stay in order to take part as a full and equal member. Now we'll be optional. We won in 1967, 1969, 1976, 1981 and 1997 and we could have won again! I admit that the past 20 years have been rocky, but we were coming back! We were contenders! We were... were... macro-biotic... vegan... ISO-9000... were...$%#@(&#... were...

 

I'm sorry. My Auto-Sarcasm emitter has malfunctioned. Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible... NURSE! More medication please!

The U.K. wasn’t in EEC, never mind a “full member”, in 1967 or 1969...

 

Ho Ho Ho 

Edited December 25, 20205 yr by Bluespunk

6 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

It is but I believe in the truth, saying the truth and if making a mistake admitting it.

Brexit in the long run is going to be one huge mistake for the UK. I bet you won’t admit that.

Will the duty increase or decrease on Boris's hairbrushes and combs

So Boris asked for 75%, threw a few tantrum and ultimatum, and settled for 25% ????

 

well done Boris ????

 

The EU would like to thank you for your hard work at negotiation ????

10 hours ago, Hi from France said:

Another question was policing and fighting terrorism, this deal is a serious setback too

 

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-britain-will-be-less-secure-without-access-to-shared-data-12172399

 

So what's the plan? 

The best plan is no plan ????

10 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

If you can access the Times a more accurate breakdown of who benefits for what is given.

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/brexit-deal-details-what-was-agreed-in-full-7knwn6z8t

 

So it is now over. The remainers will have nothing else to whine about, although I am sure we will still here from some who still haven't got over the referendum result. They will still be able to buy there <deleted> French wine and cheeses and visit EU countries. All the huffing and puffing for nothing.

I suspect that the remainers in Scotland will kiss the UK goodbye as soon as they are allowed a referendum. The UK will continue to diminish their place in the world.  The future will tell!

6 hours ago, Hi from France said:

this is not my understanding

 

what I believe is that EU EEZ quota is the same now as before (let's call it 100%) and will be progressively phased out by -25% (lets call it 75%) in 5 1/2 years.

 

After that date the deal will be renegotiated each year. So "il va y avoir du sport", it will be Brexit all over again, with arbitration, tariffs, the EU threatening retaliations..

 

 

 

UE fishermen keep access to the 6-12 miles (this are territorial waters not just EEZ) until 2026.

 

 

 

 

Belgian fishermen for example have a very small fishing zone: 80% of their catches originate in british zones, so you can imagine what getting from a 75% quota to 0% would do

 

 

to get back and hopefully agree on the interpretation of the deal for fishing you answered 

Quote

25% of EU boats' fishing rights in UK waters will be transferred to the UK fishing fleet, over a period of five-and-a-half years

EU fishing quota in UK waters will be reduced by 15% in the first year and 2.5 percentage points each year after.

After the transition ends, the UK will have the right to withdraw EU boats' access to UK waters.

https://www.bbc.com/news/46401558

 

right now

• a rule of thumb is that 50% of the fish from UK waters is caught be the EU (and goes to the EU market, not the british market)
• now lets call the present share of the EU 100%
• EEZ quota is 100% and will be progressively phased out by -25% (lets call it 75%) in 5 1/2 years

 

in 5 1/2 years

• 75% is the "normal EU share" it's here to stay,
• BUT the UK is, as always sovereign 
  • if the sovereign UK decides to cut back a little on the EU share, the arbitration committee decides what the EU can do in return (i.e. raise tariffs to compensate) so that there is no benefit for the UK as a result
  • if the sovereign UK decides to cut back a lot on the 75% the termination clause kicks in and we have a not deal-brexit, I do not see that happening for obvious reasons

 

I take it that we are in agreement for the interpretation this chapter now?

 

 

 

Now the problem for me is still to find what big prize the UK got in return for this major concession: no access to the energy market, no Erasmus (we'll get back on Erasmus), access to the Schengen criminal/terrorist database is lost...

 

 

 

I just hope Sterling goes up in value now....all the rest is just

politics to me,never been back to the UK for 30 odd years

and have no plans too.

regards worgeordie

7 hours ago, vinny41 said:

I see the EU had grand plans to double the budget of their Erasmus program  from 14.7 billion euros to 30 billion wonder the EU was keen that the UK  to retain Erasmus membership.

As everyone knows the EU never reduces its budget or scales back it grandeur plans even when they lose a major player  so I guess the remaining 27 members will have to pick up the extra cost

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/budget-may2018-erasmusplus_en_0.pdf

back on Erasmus, we won't agree there, because of course, as a principle with Brexiteers, it seems "every pound on the EU budget is a pound wasted" and that's why I'm happy to see the Brits out and the EU free of your "shackles" (to quote a prominent poster here).

 

 

so imagine a moment that the reason we want more European Union, is because when we spend more on the EU, we all are more productive, efficient and actually we all win

 

let's take Erasmus+ and Erasmus, which is a European program, but not exclusively (open to other countries, like Switzerland).

 

This was before the pandemics so we'd need to consider the impact of the devastating loss of Chinese students since then

 

we are bound by the three-quotes rule so to sum up https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/mar/08/quitting-eu-erasmus-scheme-would-blow-a-hole-in-uk-economy

 

Quote

Universities UK International (UUKI), the umbrella group representing higher education providers, said membership of Erasmus gave a bonus to the British economy worth £243m a year, after subtracting membership costs from the £420m generated by EU students visiting the UK under the programme.

 

Quote

It also said the 17,000 British students and young people who use Erasmus for work placements and study would also lose out, particularly students from disadvantaged backgrounds who would struggle to fund their travel and expenses without it.

 

so basically by loosing access Erasmus (that you nicely accused to be "a sect" btw) the UK is not saving money. 

 

Like with the EU contribution, it apparently saves money, but in the end 

• you loose money, because Erasmus was in reality a win win
• the UK universities with their sky-high fees (remember higher education in the UK used to be ... free) cannot attract foreign talent, and laboratories dry up: no new PhD to support british research
• young brits, including students from disadvantaged backgrounds do not have the opportunity to travel 

 

now what does the new Boris "Turing" programme do? It is not a "two-way give and take" its outbound only, so it's just a huge brain drain out of the UK.

 

 

@vinny41 I'm sure you can help, but I cannot see what the brits won here.

 

 

 

Of course we plan to develop Erasmus: we see it works well and runs a benefit, why should we not?

 

 

 

24 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

 

 

to get back and hopefully agree on the interpretation of the deal for fishing you answered 

 

right now

• a rule of thumb is that 50% of the fish from UK waters is caught be the EU (and goes to the EU market, not the british market)
• now lets call the present share of the EU 100%
• EEZ quota is 100% and will be progressively phased out by -25% (lets call it 75%) in 5 1/2 years

 

in 5 1/2 years

• 75% is the "normal EU share" it's here to stay,
• BUT the UK is, as always sovereign 
  • if the sovereign UK decides to cut back a little on the EU share, the arbitration committee decides what the EU can do in return (i.e. raise tariffs to compensate) so that there is no benefit for the UK as a result
  • if the sovereign UK decides to cut back a lot on the 75% the termination clause kicks in and we have a not deal-brexit, I do not see that happening for obvious reasons

 

I take it that we are in agreement for the interpretation this chapter now?

 

 

 

Now the problem for me is still to find what big prize the UK got in return for this major concession: no access to the energy market, no Erasmus (we'll get back on Erasmus), access to the Schengen criminal/terrorist database is lost...

 

 

 

The other question that needs answering is how much of the catch does the UK actually eat, and how much of it is shipped to the EU market.   i.e. if there was no deal with the EU on fishing, how much of that fish would rot on the docks or get transformed into processed fish (at a much lower market value overall).

Maybe this can enlighten some more about the deal  

 

 

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/api/files/attachment/867615/EU_Membership_benefits_two_columns.pdf

9 hours ago, Hi from France said:

Ok but still look at the UE summary p2

 

there are things missing, maybe we should look a this ?

 

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/eu-uk_trade_and_cooperation_agreement-a_new_relationship_with_big_changes-overview_of_consequences_and_benefits.pdf

 

 

When you do not pay for your membership, you also will not get the advantages.

 

So, in my fields, food & fast moving consumer goods:

No CE ( = EU approval of electric devices, sports goods, toys), no RASFF ( means: all "sub-standard" foods quickly can be exported to the UK, as no early warning system anymore, back to the 70's ), NO EFSA, no mutual recognition of food safety inspections (FSA, BRC) , no EU fish allowance ( bye bye UK fresh foods export, as no fish nor meat nor diary exporter got these allowances. Maybe in a 6 month... but then many will be bankrupt before. 

 

Boris the Liar would say..."detail, details, details... "

14 minutes ago, david555 said:

Maybe this can enlighten some more about the deal  

 

 

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/api/files/attachment/867615/EU_Membership_benefits_two_columns.pdf

 

I donot see anything about agricultural levies, the KILL for every fresh fish, meat and dairy, wheat + sugar holding foods ( = confectionary, cookies) . This "protected" the EU for decades against imports of these products.

 

"details, details, details"

Edited December 25, 20205 yr by puipuitom

6 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

 

When you do not pay for your membership, you also will not get the advantages.

 

So, in my fields, food & fast moving consumer goods:

No CE ( = EU approval of electric devices, sports goods, toys), no RASFF ( means: all "sub-standard" foods quickly can be exported to the UK, as no early warning system anymore, back to the 70's ), NO EFSA, no mutual recognition of food safety inspections (FSA, BRC) , no EU fish allowance ( bye bye UK fresh foods export, as no fish nor meat nor diary exporter got these allowances. Maybe in a 6 month... but then many will be bankrupt before. 

 

Boris the Liar would say..."detail, details, details... "

And may i specially have the gentleman's brexiteers  attention that the financial services are not granted , can see in doc. 2  

Edited December 25, 20205 yr by david555

31 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

The other question that needs answering is how much of the catch does the UK actually eat, and how much of it is shipped to the EU market.   i.e. if there was no deal with the EU on fishing, how much of that fish would rot on the docks or get transformed into processed fish (at a much lower market value overall).

 

About 80% is exported to the EU.

 

All fish imports into the EU MUST be accompanied with a certificate under the EU fish allowances. Without.. forget it. Ask all Thai, Vietnamese etc fish + shrimp +.. exporters to the EU. Also how long it lasts till they got it...

 

Without this, the UK fishery industry will be bankrupt in 6 months. 

 

"details, details,  details"

9 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

 

About 80% is exported to the EU.

 

All fish imports into the EU MUST be accompanied with a certificate under the EU fish allowances. Without.. forget it. Ask all Thai, Vietnamese etc fish + shrimp +.. exporters to the EU. Also how long it lasts till they got it...

 

Without this, the UK fishery industry will be bankrupt in 6 months. 

 

"details, details,  details"

Those "details"  shall be now be  scrutinized by the ERG  's " Star Chamber "  (Conservatives' lawyers ) ......

Edited December 25, 20205 yr by david555

29 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

 

About 80% is exported to the EU.

 

All fish imports into the EU MUST be accompanied with a certificate under the EU fish allowances. Without.. forget it. Ask all Thai, Vietnamese etc fish + shrimp +.. exporters to the EU. Also how long it lasts till they got it...

 

Without this, the UK fishery industry will be bankrupt in 6 months. 

 

"details, details,  details"

don't  know where you got your 80% figure from I have noticed that pro-eu supporters don't like to back up their claims with a verifiable source. as you state details details details one must assume no verifiable source means no details

In 2019, the UK fishing industry exported more than 333,000 tonnes of fish to the EU. That accounts for nearly half of the total catch of the UK fishing fleet and roughly three quarters of total fish exports from the UK.

https://www.bbc.com/news/46401558

For any that are wondering...

Statement on Gibraltar future relationship

Quote

A statement on Gibraltar future relationship.

 

And here's yesterday's 'full monty' from Boris including a video clip...

Prime Minister's statement on EU negotiations: 24 December 2020

Quote

Prime Minister Boris Johnson gave a statement on the outcome of negotiations with the European Union.

 

Edited December 25, 20205 yr by evadgib

44 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

 

I donot see anything about agricultural levies, the KILL for every fresh fish, meat and dairy, wheat + sugar holding foods ( = confectionary, cookies) . This "protected" the EU for decades against imports of these products.

 

"details, details, details"

 I take it you are referring to the Protection Racket that the EU operates

Difficult to believe posters on this forum actually expect from 'far apart on major issues' to 'a deal' will include hard and fast detail, the agreement is the concept, the details will be revised and adjusted for years!!!

 

Just like those intimating people in the UK are not expecting change, are also wrong. Too many too quick to insult the intelligence of the British, based on the fact the decision to leave the EU was made

 

Lets see if the EU has garnered a deal all member states will accept, or actually agreed the principle, but the hard and fast details can is hoofed down the road.

1 hour ago, puipuitom said:

 

I donot see anything about agricultural levies, the KILL for every fresh fish, meat and dairy, wheat + sugar holding foods ( = confectionary, cookies) . This "protected" the EU for decades against imports of these products.

 

"details, details, details"

Did you read your own attachment as clearly states "No tariffs"

Education and Universities is big business in the UK, a whole industry has developed over this for international students admissions and fees, so the immediate consequences would mean pricing out the "middle class" in favor of a richer elite (usually from Eastern Europe authoritarian states and other African nations)

 

For asia, a big market the UK education industry, losing the benefit for free movement in Europe for UK international students is definitely a loss of value for them.

Edited December 25, 20205 yr by GrandPapillon

4 hours ago, Narratio said:

But... but... the Eurovision Song Contest? We had to stay in order to take part as a full and equal member. Now we'll be optional. We won in 1967, 1969, 1976, 1981 and 1997 and we could have won again! I admit that the past 20 years have been rocky, but we were coming back! We were contenders! We were... were... macro-biotic... vegan... ISO-9000... were...$%#@(&#... were...

 

I'm sorry. My Auto-Sarcasm emitter has malfunctioned. Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible... NURSE! More medication please!

Sorry your post gets 'No Points'

????????

And from Macron

Pas de points.

Edited December 25, 20205 yr by overherebc