solar, big time

[mahjongguy]

Bangkok Pattaya Hospital has nearly finished re-constructing its huge parking lot. They are putting in the last of the big tubular steel frames that will support shade panels for the cars and ambulances, and I've been curious what material they would choose. The usual corrugated galvanized steel? Some kind of plastic?

 

Nope. They are going to cover the whole lot with solar.  There were dozens of pallets of 390 watt panels stacked up, ready to be mounted. I estimated there's over 1,200 of them. 

 

That's nearly half a million watts.

 

As much as I dislike going to the dentist (or the urologist), I look forward to seeing all that massive hardware get wired up. Maybe I'll have a chance to take some pics. 

 

 

[tonray]

Maybe now that the power is free (ha  ha ha) Starbucks can lower it's prices

[Crossy]

Let's pop this over to the Alternative Energy forum ???? 

 

More and more businesses with large flat areas (roof, car park shades etc.) are realising that at commercial scale solar is increasingly viable.

 

A quick look at Google Maps satellite view in our area shows panels on:-

Makro

Global House

Future Park Rangsit

Mega Home

 

Putting panels on the roof has a dual effect, it generates power of course but the panels also provide a flying-roof which reduces the solar gain too reducing the daytime requirements for A/C. Even in our car-port the roof (and therefore the space itself) is significantly cooler with the panels installed. What's not to like.

[sezze]

If you got space to spare and a bit of cash , solar is well worth it right now , because of the payback time is very low . There's always a few hurdles especially in Thailand , but you do good for the planet and in a few years good for your pocket also .

[matador007]

22 hours ago, mahjongguy said:

Bangkok Pattaya Hospital has nearly finished re-constructing its huge parking lot. They are putting in the last of the big tubular steel frames that will support shade panels for the cars and ambulances, and I've been curious what material they would choose. The usual corrugated galvanized steel? Some kind of plastic?

 

Nope. They are going to cover the whole lot with solar.  There were dozens of pallets of 390 watt panels stacked up, ready to be mounted. I estimated there's over 1,200 of them. 

 

That's nearly half a million watts.

 

As much as I dislike going to the dentist (or the urologist), I look forward to seeing all that massive hardware get wired up. Maybe I'll have a chance to take some pics. 

 

 

About time!
Hospitals have big use of power (24/7) for sure!  So I think its going to go extremely well.

How many floors does/will that Hospital have ?  Then can revise this next part.

 

I'm sure they did their calculations, but here's a quick one. (Just checked website, saw new 15 story building in 2006)

1200 (panels) x 400 (watts) = 480k watts

480k watts / 15 floors = 32k watts/floor

32k watts for each floor divided by 12 (? how many on a floor?) rooms = 2600 watts/room.

 

Of course thats just per hour power, and does not reflect other things that can be used (elevators, hall lighting, recharging electric devices, etc..)

 

It seems like overkill, but at the end of the day I think it will all get used, and practically none left for batteries.  But thats their option now.

 

Thanks for the spot & report, I am really positive for solar almost everywhere, but Thailand has huge potential.  Especially with coming EV movement.

[wavodavo]

On 12/25/2020 at 10:30 AM, sezze said:

If you got space to spare and a bit of cash , solar is well worth it right now , because of the payback time is very low . There's always a few hurdles especially in Thailand , but you do good for the planet and in a few years good for your pocket also .

I have a question. would all the millions of dead solar panels that have passed their used by date be " good for the planet " when they are all dumped into landfill ?????

[BritManToo]

23 minutes ago, wavodavo said:

I have a question. would all the millions of dead solar panels that have passed their used by date be " good for the planet " when they are all dumped into landfill ?????

Why would  you dump the  old ones?

surely you would just add to  what you already have.

[BritManToo]

4 hours ago, matador007 said:

I'm sure they did their calculations, but here's a quick one. (Just checked website, saw new 15 story building in 2006)

1200 (panels) x 400 (watts) = 480k watts

480k watts / 15 floors = 32k watts/floor

32k watts for each floor divided by 12 (? how many on a floor?) rooms = 2600 watts/room.

From my experience, panels  only  produce 1/2 their rated value.

[wavodavo]

29 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

From my experience, panels  only  produce 1/2 their rated value.

Depending on the quality of the solar panels European or Chinese I have been told that they have a life of only 15 to 20 years and they cant be recycled.

[sezze]

57 minutes ago, wavodavo said:

I have a question. would all the millions of dead solar panels that have passed their used by date be " good for the planet " when they are all dumped into landfill ?????

A no moving parts , proven very very long lifecycle . Unless you drop something on them or similar , they keep on going , most companies offer 25y for 80% minimum rated power . They not age faster after this , but if you see where they come from ( power ) in 30y they will certainly be much better around .

B Theres not a lot of harmful stuff inside solar panels . They are made by sand ... yes sand . Theres a small amount of plastic and the wires and a glass plate which is also sand. Anything other at the moment creates much more problems for the enviroment .

 

[BritManToo]

1 minute ago, wavodavo said:

Depending on the quality of the solar panels European or Chinese I have been told that they have a life of only 15 to 20 years and they cant be recycled.

From my experience solar panels, of any quality, only produce 1/2 their rated value in the real 'sunlight' world. 

Please list any make/model panels,that you have used, that produce more than 50% of their rated value.

[Crossy]

2 hours ago, wavodavo said:

I have a question. would all the millions of dead solar panels that have passed their used by date be " good for the planet " when they are all dumped into landfill ?????

 

They really are pretty inert, there are tiny amounts of arsenic (but your rice probably contains more naturally). Crush them and use as part of road structure or even building materials.

 

The way I look at it is:-

My panels created some pollution when they were made, they will make pollution-free electricity for at least 20 years maybe more, then they will create a minor disposal problem when they're dead.

 

 

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

From my experience solar panels, of any quality, only produce 1/2 their rated value in the real 'sunlight' world. 

Please list any make/model panels,that you have used, that produce more than 50% of their rated value.

 

Our 5.8kW of Trina TallMax panels have achieved 5.3kW at the inverter output, twice in 6 months (for a total of about 20 minutes). On each of those days we got about 32kWh of energy.

 

But for most of the time we're getting 3-3.5kW max at noon and about 20-25kWh.

[sezze]

7 hours ago, BritManToo said:

From my experience solar panels, of any quality, only produce 1/2 their rated value in the real 'sunlight' world. 

Please list any make/model panels,that you have used, that produce more than 50% of their rated value.

What do you mean ? Their rated peak power is nothing more , a 300w panel will in standard operating conditions deliver around 1.2 kW per day . You think that as soon as the sun comes up you get 300w ? It does not work like that . The panels rating is at 1000W solar radiation at 25c cell temp . The 1000W is about the max the sun will put on the earth , so can only be reached when the sun is at its highest . You know that Thailand does have a good amount of that , but then again , it is hot . So you cannot have those 300 w output (unless you cool them ) . Any panel will deliver the output in high mountains , where the temp is much cooler .

The way you count your solar panels in Thailand is take panel rating and take that power x4.2 . If you got shadow / less then optimal angle / bad inverter /... then a part of that will go down to 4.0 , 3.8 ...

So 1kW panels -> 4.2kW per day in Thailand .

[BritManToo]

10 minutes ago, sezze said:

So 1kW panels -> 4.2kW per day in Thailand

My 3x 340w panel string produces 3 units/day, ive never seen the output exceed 500w  at any moment.

My 2x 330w  panel string produces just under 2 units/day, ive never seen the output exceed 320w at any moment.

 

Call me simple if you want, but i expected a panel to produce  it's rated output at least 1 second at midday every day and not 1/2. 

Edited December 26, 2020 by BritManToo

[sezze]

14 hours ago, BritManToo said:

My 3x 340w panel string produces 3 units/day, ive never seen the output exceed 500w  at any moment.

My 2x 330w  panel string produces just under 2 units/day, ive never seen the output exceed 320w at any moment.

 

Call me simple if you want, but i expected a panel to produce  it's rated output at least 1 second at midday every day and not 1/2. 

Like i said , Solar angle is important , wire length before inverter , inverter quality , cell temp ... all matter .

if you can follow output every minute , put some water on the panels at mid day , and see your output rise 10-15% , for a couple of minutes .

Same like fuel consumption at a car , the standard used cannot be reached at any time . But it does not matter , you do not look at peak output , you look at daily output . Since your output only gives 3kWh /day , then your conditions are less then optimal , meaning something is way off , or all the small things are off by a bit .

Best inverters give you +90% efficiency , while a Souer GTI gives you 80% efficiency ( meaning , even if the panel delivers 1000w , you only get 800w )

cable length panels to inverter need to be as short as possible , as voltage drop there gives you a big difference . 1-2 m does not matter , but 4-5 m do .

angle : i can look up the optimum angle and the loss which is expected . 90 degree angle is no good at all , since heat cannot dissipate good from the panels . 15% angle south from 90degree is pretty much optimal ( in Thailand ), all year round , but then again also depending on season . You do not check peak moment , you try to get as close to optimum for all day / all year use , since the small difference in max power is not where the gains are .

Edited December 27, 2020 by Crossy
Fixed the energy unit to avoid confusion later.

[Nakdontree]

Great answers, @sezze, I agree on all points.

I do have one small suggestion for improvement, though:

 

2 hours ago, sezze said:

Since your output only gives 3kW /day

 

do not mix up kW and kWh. This can easily cause confusion to other people.

There is no such thing as "3 kW per day". It can only be "3 kWh per day" ????

[Crossy]

13 hours ago, sezze said:

Like i said , Solar angle is important , wire length before inverter , inverter quality , cell temp ... all matter .

if you can follow output every minute , put some water on the panels at mid day , and see your output rise 10-15% , for a couple of minutes .

Same like fuel consumption at a car , the standard used cannot be reached at any time . But it does not matter , you do not look at peak output , you look at daily output . Since your output only gives 3kW /day , then your conditions are less then optimal , meaning something is way off , or all the small things are off by a bit .

Best inverters give you +90% efficiency , while a Souer GTI gives you 80% efficiency ( meaning , even if the panel delivers 1000w , you only get 800w )

cable length panels to inverter need to be as short as possible , as voltage drop there gives you a big difference . 1-2 m does not matter , but 4-5 m do .

angle : i can look up the optimum angle and the loss which is expected . 90 degree angle is no good at all , since heat cannot dissipate good from the panels . 15% angle south from 90degree is pretty much optimal ( in Thailand ), all year round , but then again also depending on season . You do not check peak moment , you try to get as close to optimum for all day / all year use , since the small difference in max power is not where the gains are .

 

All good stuff (apart from the unit typo which I have fixed for you). 

 

What system do you have, what sort of average daily output are you seeing?

 

[matador007]

On 12/27/2020 at 4:17 PM, Heizen said:

Let me try to analyze the costs. If you buy a single light, you will need to spend roughly $1300 up to $1800 for a set that does not yet consist of the assembly and maintenance costs.
Solar-powered lights obtain energy from the sunlight; therefore, they are economical and eco-friendly since they get a free energy source.
It can be true that the upfront costs for sun-powered lights can be more expensive compared to conventional lights. However, the former offers more benefits in the long run.

Not sure how solar lights or lights powered by solar exactly related into this topic, but I just want to say, that there are a million things that are impossible to calculate into renewable energy ROI beyond the $$.

So, for example, lets say some area (Village, Municipality, City etc..) chooses to go solar for street lights.  If they would not have, and there is a power outage.  And someone (drunk or not) runs into another car/motorbike, because their light burned out, and was unable to see them.  And then someone dies, or tragically changes their life.
When with say a solar (street light) setup, it would have been prevented, because with right setup (light + panel + battery storage to last cloudy days) there would have been light to avert the accident.

 

So how can someone calculate the damage of funerals avoided, human productivity lost, robberies averted because lights deter thieves, etc..
Maybe a I rambled a bit, but I think everyone gets the point.  You cannot calculate cost/benefit of solar (and what it powers) on a straight up ROI scenerio.  Too many what ifs exist.

 

How about your Fridge/Freezer keeping stuff during an extended outage.  That prevents an extra grocery run, of which you could have been in a life changing accident, having to do an extra/unexpected grocery run.

 

So hope everyone tries to think of the scenarios beyond the money cost.

Edited January 8, 2021 by matador007