Scottish nationalists set for record majority, boosting independence push

[RuamRudy]

3 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

They could of course continue to use UK banknotes; but as they would no longer be part of the UK they would not be able to issue them.

 

However you cut it, an independent Scotland using Sterling as it's currency will not control it's own monetary policy.

 

Monetary policy is not currently devised with the needs of Scotland considered a priority. Nothing will change in that regard. 

[RuamRudy]

39 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

That's why the SNP want the vote now. Before Brexit can be seen to be a success and before the UK's world leading vaccine rollout is complete. Once those 2 things have happened, support for the SNP's divisive, nasty form of politics will dwindle, and they know it.

 

All Boris has to do is wait. Say No to another Indyref. Within 5 years Sturgeon will be gone (maybe MUCH sooner if her lies about Salmond are exposed) and the cult of the SNP will be fading away quicker than one of their football team's world cup qualification campaigns.

 

A contender for funniest post of 2021 and January isn't even over! Well done! 

[RuamRudy]

The remarkable thing about the whole independence debate is how the English Nationalists have tried to frame the debate as being about Scottish hatred, when the reality, as seen all through the Brexit debate, is that their whole ethos is one of nasty, small minded hatred and xenophobia. 

 

One just needs to look at the Scottish Independence threads and it doesn't take long for the bitterness and emnity of the English Nationalists to come to the fore, but for them hatred is never far from the surface. Bile and resentment comes so easy to them. 

 

Thankfully, I know that the vast majority of English people are not like that. English Nationalists are very much, as their beloved Brexit shows, a minority. 

[transam]

9 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

The remarkable thing about the whole independence debate is how the English Nationalists have tried to frame the debate as being about Scottish hatred, when the reality, as seen all through the Brexit debate, is that their whole ethos is one of nasty, small minded hatred and xenophobia. 

 

One just needs to look at the Scottish Independence threads and it doesn't take long for the bitterness and emnity of the English Nationalists to come to the fore, but for them hatred is never far from the surface. Bile and resentment comes so easy to them. 

 

Thankfully, I know that the vast majority of English people are not like that. English Nationalists are very much, as their beloved Brexit shows, a minority. 

And if I am Welsh.....?     ???? 

[NiceGuyEddy]

44 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Monetary policy is not currently devised with the needs of Scotland considered a priority. Nothing will change in that regard. 

That's codswallop. The UK monetary policy is clearly devised to meet the needs of the UK as a whole. SNP just like playing the victim.

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, NiceGuyEddy said:

That's codswallop. The UK monetary policy is clearly devised to meet the needs of the UK as a whole. SNP just like playing the victim.

 

How does that work? I don't say this out of umbrage, but the needs of a crofting community in Sutherland are very different to the needs of the City of London. The latter generates much more income so it stands to reason that fiscal policy is weighted in favour of the one that contributes most. 

[vogie]

19 minutes ago, Victornoir said:

Impossible.
The Welsh are discreet, humble, kind and cheerful... 

All my traits boyo.

[vogie]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

The remarkable thing about the whole independence debate is how the English Nationalists have tried to frame the debate as being about Scottish hatred, when the reality, as seen all through the Brexit debate, is that their whole ethos is one of nasty, small minded hatred and xenophobia. 

 

One just needs to look at the Scottish Independence threads and it doesn't take long for the bitterness and emnity of the English Nationalists to come to the fore, but for them hatred is never far from the surface. Bile and resentment comes so easy to them. 

 

Thankfully, I know that the vast majority of English people are not like that. English Nationalists are very much, as their beloved Brexit shows, a minority. 

A Scottish Nationalist calling an imaginary English Nationalist, you have just won the funniest post of the year back.????????????

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, vogie said:

A Scottish Nationalist calling an imaginary English Nationalist, you have just won the funniest post of the year back.????????????

 

Are you sure you dont recognise the condition? You have certainly liked enough posts wishing ill upon Scotland and the Scots. 

 

We supporters of independence are not nearly so enthusiastic in our wishing ill upon our neighbours, but then again, there are very few posts wishing the same. Make of that what you will. 

[herfiehandbag]

22 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Tests to be met - maybe less than 10 years. But of course, it's important for England too; otherwise what currency will you use to pay for the water, electricity, oil and gas we will supply you with? 

Now, with regard to selling water, electricity, oil and gas to England and Wales, geography means that unless you (Scotland) are prepared to invest in a colossal infrastructure to bypass England to sell elsewhere (with the possible exception of oil, which could of course be moved by ship, although the distance involved would make it expensive) we would be your only customer. We of course would be free to shop around for cheaper suppliers. As your only customer perhaps we would have a significant influence upon the currency used, and indeed the price charged. If the sale of water, electricity, oil and gas to England and Wales is critical to an independent Scotland's economy ( I have no idea if it is) then that puts you on rather shaky ground!

 

Returning to the idea of an independent Scotland continuing to use Sterling, how will you get it in reliable predictable quantities? Yes you can raise it through domestic taxation, perhaps even through the sale of water, electricity, oil and gas, and through trade with your southern neighbour; but as a modern sophisticated country, especially with the sort of spending plans and intentions which Ms Sturgeon and her government seems to have in mind, Scotland will need significant reserves. I am genuinely curious as to how that will be achieved. Finally, we come to the subject of International borrowing, an indispensable tool of a modern government. Again, no expert, but I suspect borrowing will be much more difficult (and expensive) if you do not control your own currency. So much depends upon England's preparedness to indulge an independent Scotland in using Sterling as the mainstay of it's economy. I suspect that the price for that would be "Bank of England oversight" of the economy - a strange independence! All very pertinent points - yes? If we look past the name calling which this thread is rather degenerating into.

Edited January 26, 2021 by herfiehandbag

[NiceGuyEddy]

4 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

Now, with regard to selling water, electricity, oil and gas to England and Wales, geography means that unless you (Scotland) are prepared to invest in a colossal infrastructure to bypass England to sell elsewhere (with the possible exception of oil, which could of course be moved by ship, although the distance involved would make it expensive) we would be your only customer. We of course would be free to shop around for cheaper suppliers. As your only customer perhaps we would have a significant influence upon the currency used, and indeed the price charged. If the sale of water, electricity, oil and gas to England and Wales is critical to an independent Scotland's economy ( I have no idea if it is) then that puts you on rather shaky ground!

 

Returning to the idea of an independent Scotland continuing to use Sterling, how will you get it in reliable predictable quantities? Yes you can raise it through domestic taxation, perhaps even through the sale of water, electricity, oil and gas, and through trade with your southern neighbour; but as a modern sophisticated country, especially with the sort of spending plans and intentions which Ms Sturgeon and her government seems to have in mind, Scotland will need significant reserves. I am genuinely curious as to how that will be achieved. Finally, we come to the subject of International borrowing, an indispensable tool of a modern government. Again, no expert, but I suspect borrowing will be much more difficult (and expensive) if you do not control your own currency. So much depends upon England's preparedness to indulge an independent Scotland in using Sterling as the mainstay of it's economy. I suspect that the price for that would be "Bank of England oversight" of the economy - a strange independence! All very pertinent points - yes? If we look past the name calling which this thread is rather degenerating into.

You're wasting your time trying to convince the cult of the SNP with economical arguments. Their hatred of the English trumps everything else.

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Are you sure you dont recognise the condition? You have certainly liked enough posts wishing ill upon Scotland and the Scots. 

 

We supporters of independence are not nearly so enthusiastic in our wishing ill upon our neighbours, but then again, there are very few posts wishing the same. Make of that what you will. 

All lies, you are now spreading malicious untruths probably to disguise your association with the Nationalists. I have never once called the Scots as I have nothing but respect. Show me were I have ever called the Scots?

[herfiehandbag]

35 minutes ago, Victornoir said:

Impossible.
The Welsh are discreet, humble, kind and cheerful... 

Ad produced some excellent longbow archers in the late fourteenth and early fifteenth centuries!

[Yahooka]

Wants independence and THEN want to join the EU ........Talk about a contradiction ???? !!

[RuamRudy]

10 minutes ago, vogie said:

All lies, you are now spreading malicious untruths probably to disguise your association with the Nationalists. I have never once called the Scots as I have nothing but respect. Show me were I have ever called the Scots?

 

I said that you liked posts that insulted Scots and Scotland in a way that is never seen written about England. 

 

What sort of respect is it where you endorse sentiments such as Scotland being insignificant and has a historically bitter population?

 

Why would you like a post that says 'many of us will be glad to see the back of you' and says that being in a union with Scotland is to be  'saddled' with it if you respect the country and the people so much? 

 

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I said that you liked posts that insulted Scots and Scotland in a way that is never seen written about England. 

 

What sort of respect is it where you endorse sentiments such as Scotland being insignificant and has a historically bitter population?

 

Why would you like a post that says 'many of us will be glad to see the back of you' and says that being in a union with Scotland is to be  'saddled' with it if you respect the country and the people so much? 

 

Do you have a database of who likes this and who likes that, he was referring to the Nationalists obviously. I may have to keep a data base on your likes, but there again I believe that I'm too grown up to even bother with childish likes.

[RuamRudy]

26 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

Now, with regard to selling water, electricity, oil and gas to England and Wales, geography means that unless you (Scotland) are prepared to invest in a colossal infrastructure to bypass England to sell elsewhere (with the possible exception of oil, which could of course be moved by ship, although the distance involved would make it expensive) we would be your only customer. We of course would be free to shop around for cheaper suppliers. As your only customer perhaps we would have a significant influence upon the currency used, and indeed the price charged. If the sale of water, electricity, oil and gas to England and Wales is critical to an independent Scotland's economy ( I have no idea if it is) then that puts you on rather shaky ground!

 

Returning to the idea of an independent Scotland continuing to use Sterling, how will you get it in reliable predictable quantities? Yes you can raise it through domestic taxation, perhaps even through the sale of water, electricity, oil and gas, and through trade with your southern neighbour; but as a modern sophisticated country, especially with the sort of spending plans and intentions which Ms Sturgeon and her government seems to have in mind, Scotland will need significant reserves. I am genuinely curious as to how that will be achieved. Finally, we come to the subject of International borrowing, an indispensable tool of a modern government. Again, no expert, but I suspect borrowing will be much more difficult (and expensive) if you do not control your own currency. So much depends upon England's preparedness to indulge an independent Scotland in using Sterling as the mainstay of it's economy. I suspect that the price for that would be "Bank of England oversight" of the economy - a strange independence! All very pertinent points - yes? If we look past the name calling which this thread is rather degenerating into.

 

The water issue is not one I conjured up - England is predicted to have a water deficit within 20 years and Scotland has 98% of all the UK's fresh water supplies. If you don't wish to purchase from Scotland, the cost of importing from elsewhere will surely be particularly onerous? Electricity - we already supply you; the infrastructure is there and there is a net flow to England from both Scotland and Wales. Unless you wish to invest in new power stations, I don't see that changing any time soon.

As for the monetary matters, I do confess that my knowledge is limited. I understand that the fastest an independent country has founded a new currency is around 18 months (one of the Balkan states, I believe) but the ins and outs of the process escape me. 

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

Do you have a database of who likes this and who likes that, he was referring to the Nationalists obviously. I may have to keep a data base on your likes, but there again I believe that I'm too grown up to even bother with childish likes.

 

He said 'the Scots', not Scottish independence supporters, which, in context with the post, would make no sense at all. But then again, I am not your conscience. You are free to like whatever post you wish and you are free to be as hypocritical as you wish. No skin off my back. 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

 

He said 'the Scots', not Scottish independence supporters, which, in context with the post, would make no sense at all. But then again, I am not your conscience. You are free to like whatever post you wish and you are free to be as hypocritical as you wish. No skin off my back. 

What I did notice, you actually had exhibit A on hand, you didn't have to go searching, how sad is that RR.

[herfiehandbag]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

 

The water issue is not one I conjured up - England is predicted to have a water deficit within 20 years and Scotland has 98% of all the UK's fresh water supplies. If you don't wish to purchase from Scotland, the cost of importing from elsewhere will surely be particularly onerous? Electricity - we already supply you; the infrastructure is there and there is a net flow to England from both Scotland and Wales. Unless you wish to invest in new power stations, I don't see that changing any time soon.

As for the monetary matters, I do confess that my knowledge is limited. I understand that the fastest an independent country has founded a new currency is around 18 months (one of the Balkan states, I believe) but the ins and outs of the process escape me. 

This link (https://www.internetgeography.net/topics/water-transfer-in-the-uk/) would seem to indicate that there is no large scale water transfer within the UK.

 

This one is even more specific on the subject of transfer of water from Scotland to England.

(https://www.gov.scot/publications/foi-202000104273/).

 

In precis, it doesn't seem to be happening. It is one option to be considered. I rather suspect, like several other matters, it is on hold until the independence question is settled.

Edited January 26, 2021 by herfiehandbag

[RuamRudy]

Just now, herfiehandbag said:

This link (https://www.internetgeography.net/topics/water-transfer-in-the-uk/) would seem to indicate that there is no large scale water transfer within the UK.

 

This one is even more specific on the subject of transfer of water from Scotland to England.

(https://www.gov.scot/publications/foi-202000104273/).

 

In precis, it doesn't seem to be happening.

 

Currently not, but the issue will come to the fore within the lifetime of most of us. 

 

England risks running out of water in 20 years

"England faces ‘a serious risk of running out of water within 20 years,’ according to a new report published by the Public Accounts Committee."  

[RuamRudy]

11 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

This link (https://www.internetgeography.net/topics/water-transfer-in-the-uk/) would seem to indicate that there is no large scale water transfer within the UK.

 

This one is even more specific on the subject of transfer of water from Scotland to England.

(https://www.gov.scot/publications/foi-202000104273/).

 

In precis, it doesn't seem to be happening.

 

As for Electricity, this is a very interesting chart which shows the 2019 picture of UK wide electricity transfer. 

Scotland transferred 15 TWh of electricity to England in that year. 

 

 

[Phulublub]

58 minutes ago, NiceGuyEddy said:

You're wasting your time trying to convince the cult of the SNP with economical arguments. Their hatred of the English trumps everything else.

I am not part of any SNP cult, though you would probably lump me in with such a group should it exist, but I would be more than happy to engage in serious discussion on the economics of independence.  This is difficult when many of the anti-Scots appear to think that rUK (though many refer to rUK as England - good Unionists all, eh?) could stop an independent Scotland from using Sterling.  If they are so unversed ineconomic truths then any and all attempts at reasoned discussion are doomed to failure.

 

PH

[Phulublub]

18 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

As for Electricity, this is a very interesting chart which shows the 2019 picture of UK wide electricity transfer. 

Scotland transferred 15 TWh of electricity to England in that year. 

 

 

 

 

But but but but...Scotland needs to sell the electricity more than England needs to buy it.  England has Scotland over a barrell and will continue to do so until the lights go out.  Oh.

 

(Apparently shipping oil around is expensive too...who knew!!)

 

PH

Edited January 26, 2021 by Phulublub

[herfiehandbag]

14 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

So many falsehoods that I know not where to begin...but this stands out immediately:

 

So much depends upon England's preparedness to indulge an independent Scotland in using Sterling

 

There is nothing that rUK (not England BTW - but you are another to display your Little Englander credentials) can do to stop an independent Scotland from using Sterling. 

 

PH

 

 

I did not say that the "rUK", as you choose to call it could stop an independent Scotland from using Sterling - I wondered whether they would be prepared to indulge them (Scotland), in other words help them.

 

As for "Little Englander Credentials", you sound as if you cannot countenance anyone holding a different view to that ordained by "Phulublub". Many do, and not thinking as you do is not a reason for that sort of knee jerk accusation..

 

Finally; "So many falsehoods that I know not where to begin". Try. I posted opinions for discussion not evidence based facts to forensically dissect an argument. So go ahead, produce facts, statistics, evidence to prove that I have deliberately posted falsehoods. Alternatively try something like; "I don't agree with what you think. because i believe that..." A far more considered, civil, and altogether less arrogant way of discussing the subject don't you think?

[Phulublub]

5 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

I did not say that the "rUK", as you choose to call it could stop an independent Scotland from using Sterling - I wondered whether they would be prepared to indulge them (Scotland), in other words help them.

No, you said "England".  Sterling belongs no more to England than Wales, NI or Scotland.  It is a common trait of Little Englandersto consider the UK as being England with some other annoying bits tacked on.  It isn't, or at least it wasn't but

 

and "prepared to indulge" is hardly a way of suggesting rUK would be looking to help an independent Scotland.

 

PH

[Phulublub]

1 hour ago, herfiehandbag said:

Now, with regard to selling water, electricity, oil and gas to England and Wales, geography means that unless you (Scotland) are prepared to invest in a colossal infrastructure to bypass England to sell elsewhere (with the possible exception of oil, which could of course be moved by ship, although the distance involved would make it expensive) we would be your only customer.

Scotland has no need to sell water or electricity to Englandand Wales.  England has come close to brown outs several times in the past.  Removing the amount and flexibility of buying from Scotland would make that a reality. Remember the three day week? I do.  Of course, England could go cap in hand to France, but might need to beef up the Interconnector.

 

1 hour ago, herfiehandbag said:

 

We of course would be free to shop around for cheaper suppliers. As your only customer perhaps we would have a significant influence upon the currency used, and indeed the price charged. If the sale of water, electricity, oil and gas to England and Wales is critical to an independent Scotland's economy ( I have no idea if it is) then that puts you on rather shaky ground!

A newly independent Scotland would continue to use Sterling.  This - as I alluded to earlier is to ErUK advantge, something that you now demonstrate for me.  The price charged would be for negotiation but since England in particular hads much need of Scottish electricty, I don't think they would hold all the cards.

 

Given that a considerable quantity of electricity flows bewteen various parts of the UK now, but payment for that goes nowhere near the Scottish exchequer, independence would see a boost from this to the Scottish economy.  

 

 

1 hour ago, herfiehandbag said:

Returning to the idea of an independent Scotland continuing to use Sterling, how will you get it in reliable predictable quantities?

The SCots have considerbale amounts already. To print Scottish notes, Scottish banks have to hold UK Sterling....

 

1 hour ago, herfiehandbag said:

Yes you can raise it through domestic taxation, perhaps even through the sale of water, electricity, oil and gas, and through trade with your southern neighbour;but as a modern sophisticated country, especially with the sort of spending plans and intentions which Ms Sturgeon and her government seems to have in mind, Scotland will need significant reserves. I am genuinely curious as to how that will be achieved.

Trade with others, perhaps?  Apparently loosening ties with your biggest trading partner is a plus (you would have to ask Brexiteers for details as I don't belive it myself).  But that is a price many Scots are willing to pay.  We have already seen that selling electricity will be a plus.  As will all the tax revenues from North Sea oil going to Holyrood not Westmninster.  And maybe will not spend on such luxuries as Trident.  BTW, where will UK base its nuclear deterrent?  Maybe they will want to lease Faslane and Couplort for a few years while they build suitable facilities?

1 hour ago, herfiehandbag said:

 

Finally, we come to the subject of International borrowing, an indispensable tool of a modern government. Again, no expert, but I suspect borrowing will be much more difficult (and expensive) if you do not control your own currency.

Scotland will be able to raise nmoney on international markets just like any other country. 

1 hour ago, herfiehandbag said:

 

So much depends upon England's preparedness to indulge an independent Scotland in using Sterling as the mainstay of it's economy. I suspect that the price for that would be "Bank of England oversight" of the economy - a strange independence! All very pertinent points - yes? If we look past the name calling which this thread is rather degenerating into.

Indulge the Scots!  Nothing to indulge them over.  Independence is much much more than immediately having your own currency.

 

PH

[NiceGuyEddy]

11 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

 

Scotland will be able to raise nmoney on international markets just like any other country. 

Indulge the Scots!  Nothing to indulge them over.  Independence is much much more than immediately having your own currency.

 

PH

Well, in 30 years time, and IF you win your second independance referendum, you will find out. In the meantime, in the middle of a horrendous global pandemic and with all of the challenges that brings, don't you think it would be better for us four nations of the UK to be pulling in the same direction?

[Phulublub]

4 minutes ago, NiceGuyEddy said:

Well, in 30 years time, and IF you win your second independance referendum, you will find out. In the meantime, in the middle of a horrendous global pandemic and with all of the challenges that brings, don't you think it would be better for us four nations of the UK to be pulling in the same direction?

I do, just as I hink being part of the largest and most advanced trading block would be a good idea.

 

PH

[RuamRudy]

Just now, NiceGuyEddy said:

Well, in 30 years time, and IF you win your second independance referendum, you will find out. In the meantime, in the middle of a horrendous global pandemic and with all of the challenges that brings, don't you think it would be better for us four nations of the UK to be pulling in the same direction?

 

Absolutely not, unless it involves the the devolved nations taking the lead and England following. Are you willing to do that?