Scottish nationalists set for record majority, boosting independence push

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Independent while using the GBP with the Bank of England setting your monetary policy? Independent while begging the EU to let you into their club as an insignificant minnow of 28? Not exactly Braveheart is it?

 

Yeah I'm sure the EU will be more than happy to take advantage of your utter desperation to give you a lop sided trade deal that involved handing over control of most of your resources to them. Might take 5 years to finalize though. They certainly won't be in any rush or doing you any favours that's for sure  - the Spanish wouldn't allow that, it would encourage the Catalans.

 

I'm not worried about you. Far from it. I would find it highly amusing but I'd feel bad for the Scots who wanted to remain in the UK, which lest you forget were 55% of those who voted in 2014.

 

That was not what I asked. You said:

 

25 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

If you wish to isolate yourselves by coming out of the UK and having no trade deal with your 2 largest trading partners (UK and EU) whilst having monetary policy dictated to you by the Bank of England, that's Scotland's problem not the UK's.

 

And I asked you how the BoE's monetary policy will change after Scotland becomes independent. So let's have it - what will be the change we will see from how monetary policy is currently devised?

 

Also, your third largest trading partner (possibly your second now that you have shot yourself in the foot with the EU) - are you happy to lose that?

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

That was not what I asked. You said:

 

 

And I asked you how the BoE's monetary policy will change after Scotland becomes independent. So let's have it - what will be the change we will see from how monetary policy is currently devised?

 

Also, your third largest trading partner (possibly your second now that you have shot yourself in the foot with the EU) - are you happy to lose that?

 

I know what you asked, and it was a deflection. Not even the BOE knows what the BOE's monetary policy is going to be in 5 years time, it's a banal question intended only to deflect from the fact that Scotland won't be Independent because the BOE will be dictating it's monetary policy to it. I can guarantee that zero consideration will be given to the Scots in such a scenario, which despite your anti English, sorry I mean anti Westminster rhetoric is far from the case now.

 

Scotland does 60% of it's trade with the rest of the UK. No trade deal will hurt Scotland a lot more than it will hurt the UK. Still, if you want to crash out of the UK that's up to you. The little Scotlanders running over the cliff edge into isolation. Still, you know what you're voting for.

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

I know what you asked, and it was a deflection. Not even the BOE knows what the BOE's monetary policy is going to be in 5 years time, it's a banal question intended only to deflect from the fact that Scotland won't be Independent because the BOE will be dictating it's monetary policy to it. I can guarantee that zero consideration will be given to the Scots in such a scenario, which despite your anti English, sorry I mean anti Westminster rhetoric is far from the case now.

 

 

So why raise it as an issue if you don't understand the basics? 

 

5 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Scotland does 60% of it's trade with the rest of the UK. No trade deal will hurt Scotland a lot more than it will hurt the UK. Still, if you want to crash out of the UK that's up to you. 

 

Of course it will, but the only people who are advocating pain are the butthurt cultist brexiteers. I think it is clear that the cackhanded, jingoisitic approach of your far right leadership was never going to accomplish anything other than damage to all parties. Hopefully adults without hedge funds to shore up will be in the room when we negotiate, and they will see the bigger picture.

[Surelynot]

28 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Absolutely right. The problem will be all Scotland's. I'll simply be chuckling from the sidelines at the stupidity of it all.

 

Scotland with no more subsidies from Westminster. No trade deals. Isolated in the north sea for a decade.

 

Still, you know what you're voting for.

OMG...Project Fear...give it a rest.

[Surelynot]

Single biggest weapon in the SNP's arsenal is Johnson (and his occasional, unwarranted visits to God's country).....all he needs to do now is appoint his minister for the Union to the Cabinet.......I'm thinking Rees-Mogg.......that should round things off nicely.....final nail.....

[RayC]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

 

Examples were sought of anti English sentiment issued by the Scottish government. 

 

You have tried to use the words of a third party to insinuate that the claims by NiceGuyEddy are, in fact, not lies. 

 

 

It was not my intention to infer that these were the words of the Scottish government. I was merely pointing out that in addition to the xenophobic comments directed towards Scots, there are similar comments directed towards the English.

 

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I fully agree with you about xenophobia being reprehensible. It was one of the many ugly sides of Brexit that brought so much shame to our islands. That, I believe, is one of the reasons there is so much antipathy towards the English from people of other countries. 

 

And that justifies and/or excuses this 'antipathy'?

 

'Antipathy'? Xenophobia? I'd suggest 'Same, same but same' in this context.

[JonnyF]

33 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

So why raise it as an issue if you don't understand the basics? 

 

 

Of course it will, but the only people who are advocating pain are the butthurt cultist brexiteers. I think it is clear that the cackhanded, jingoisitic approach of your far right leadership was never going to accomplish anything other than damage to all parties. Hopefully adults without hedge funds to shore up will be in the room when we negotiate, and they will see the bigger picture.

 

I raise it because it completely disproves your whole argument. Scotland cannot be independent if the BOE is dictating it's monetary policy. Insinuating this isn't the case because I cannot predict said monetary policy 5 years in advance is as laughable as it is predictable. I understand the attempt to deflect though, it must be vexing that such a simple indisputable fact undermines you case so comprehensively in one foul swoop.

 

Your second paragraph only highlights your level of paranoia. I don't tend to pay attention to such radical, tin foil hat, conspiratorial, far left nonsense.

[RuamRudy]

12 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I raise it because it completely disproves your whole argument. Scotland cannot be independent if the BOE is dictating it's monetary policy. Insinuating this isn't the case because I cannot predict said monetary policy 5 years in advance is as laughable as it is predictable. I understand the attempt to deflect though, it must be vexing that such a simple indisputable fact undermines you case so comprehensively in one foul swoop.

 

Your point was not about an independent Scotland being dependent on another institution. You suggested that if an independent Scotland was to use the pound, the BoE would no longer tailor its policy to take into account the particular needs of Scotland, with the inference being that we would be negatively impacted by that fact. I asked you what considerations they currently make for Scotland and you could not name any. I wasn't talking about 5 years from now. So my point remains - there would be no impact on monetary policy. 

[RuamRudy]

27 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

and that justifies and/or excuses this 'antipathy'?

 

'Antipathy'? Xenophobia? I'd suggest 'Same, same but same' in this context.

 

Not at all, but I think that sometimes it is worth trying to understand the reasons behind such behaviour. I am not making excuses, but sometimes inward reflection is not a bad thing. 

[JonnyF]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Your point was not about an independent Scotland being dependent on another institution. You suggested that if an independent Scotland was to use the pound, the BoE would no longer tailor its policy to take into account the particular needs of Scotland, with the inference being that we would be negatively impacted by that fact. I asked you what considerations they currently make for Scotland and you could not name any. I wasn't talking about 5 years from now. So my point remains - there would be no impact on monetary policy. 

 

Wrong. Stop lieing. My point was that Scotland would not be Independent if the BOE was setting it's monetary policy. In case you forgot, here is what I said.

 

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Wrong. Stop lieing. My point was that Scotland would not be Independent if the BOE was setting it's monetary policy. In case you forgot, here is what I said.

 

 

Wrong, that was your follow-up obfuscation.

What you wrote was:

 

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

If you wish to isolate yourselves by coming out of the UK and having no trade deal with your 2 largest trading partners (UK and EU) whilst having monetary policy dictated to you by the Bank of England, that's Scotland's problem not the UK's

 

And I repeatedly asked you what the impact of that would be - and you have repeatedly squirmed and dodged the question. 

[JonnyF]

6 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Wrong, that was your follow-up obfuscation.

What you wrote was:

 

 

And I repeatedly asked you what the impact of that would be - and you have repeatedly squirmed and dodged the question. 

Your quote just proved my point. I merely stated you would not be independent because the BOE would dictate your monetary policy. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

Where in my post did I infer that the BOE currently tailors it's policy for Scotland and that you would be negatively impacted if they stopped? I didn't. You simply dreamt it up ????.

 

I simply stated you would not be Independent. Which you wouldn't be. What you said below is totally false. Here's what you said. Please quote my post where I suggested this. 

 

 

[Phulublub]

39 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I merely stated you would not be independent because the BOE would dictate your monetary policy. Nothing more. Nothing less.

That is not true.  Sctoland would be an independent country.

 

What is true is that the BoE would (continue to) set interest rates, but that is only one aspect of monetary policy. 

 

PH

[JonnyF]

16 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

That is not true.  Sctoland would be an independent country.

 

What is true is that the BoE would (continue to) set interest rates, but that is only one aspect of monetary policy. 

 

PH

It would go a lot further than interest rates. It would affect many aspects of monetary policy. 

 

https://www.worldfirst.com/app/uploads/2014/08/WF-Scottish-Independance-White-Paper.pdf

 

 

How can you be Independent when another nation decides your interest rates, ability to print money etc. Do you even know what Independent means?

 

 

[Surelynot]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

It would go a lot further than interest rates. It would affect many aspects of monetary policy. 

 

https://www.worldfirst.com/app/uploads/2014/08/WF-Scottish-Independance-White-Paper.pdf

 

 

How can you be Independent when another nation decides your interest rates, ability to print money etc. Do you even know what Independent means?

 

 

Project Fear.....no one is listening.

[melvinmelvin]

Queen, the current one

 

is she queen of Wales, England, NI and Scotland? What about UK? Does UK as such have a queen?

 

 

[JonnyF]

4 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

Project Fear.....no one is listening.

You think Scotland could control it's own monetary policy such as interest rates and printing money while using the GBP having left the UK?

 

Interesting. ????

 

 

[bkkcanuck8]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

You think Scotland could control it's own monetary policy such as interest rates and printing money while using the GBP having left the UK?

 

Interesting. ????

 

 

In the interim they can setup a Currency Board like HK has for their currency... as a transitional currency... until a time where they could adopt the EUR.  Basically, you lose domestic flexibility (Scotland does not have that themselves right now), but you gain currency stability.   One unit of local currency would be directly backed by the foreign exchange (100%) - which would consist of a basket of currencies (EUR, USD, GPB).  It would make sense for an independent Scotland since Scotland would have a small open economy -- As such a fully independent monetary policy would be a little difficult to sustain and if the plans are to eventually join the EU and the EUR then it makes no sense to set up. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by bkkcanuck8

[Phulublub]

56 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

Queen, the current one

 

is she queen of Wales, England, NI and Scotland? What about UK? Does UK as such have a queen?

 

 

Well....since James VI became James I on unification of the crowns. Elizabeth should actually be Elizabeth I, not II.....not that that answers your question, but is a microscopically small example of how England is seen to dominate the Union.

 

PH

[Phulublub]

58 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

You think Scotland could control it's own monetary policy such as interest rates and printing money while using the GBP having left the UK?

 

Interesting. ????

 

 

No,  And I do not think the OP said that. 

 

PH

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

It would go a lot further than interest rates. It would affect many aspects of monetary policy. 

 

https://www.worldfirst.com/app/uploads/2014/08/WF-Scottish-Independance-White-Paper.pdf

 

 

How can you be Independent when another nation decides your interest rates, ability to print money etc. Do you even know what Independent means?

 

 

Interesting that this white paper cited the example of Iceland. Actually, Iceland recovered far more quickly than distressed EU nations. What Iceland didn't do was bail out banks or depositors. The UK actually tried to force Iceland to reimburse UK depositors. Essentially, Iceland laughed off the attempt.

[Rookiescot]

4 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Absolutely right. The problem will be all Scotland's. I'll simply be chuckling from the sidelines at the stupidity of it all.

 

Scotland with no more subsidies from Westminster. No trade deals. Isolated in the north sea for a decade.

 

Still, you know what you're voting for.

 

So pretty much where the UK is now then after Brexit?

You guys better start hoping an independent Scotland does keep using the pound. As soon as it stops thats at least 10% of UK GDP gone overnight. Pound will be in freefall again. Just like after Brexit.

We do know what we are voting for. Its called independence. Unlike Brexit there is only one version of independence. Of the 57 (?) countries that have freed themselves from Englands colonial rule not a single one of them has asked to come back.

Now I wonder why that is.

[Rookiescot]

4 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

Absolutely. Losing is never fun.

 

I'd probably feel more sympathy had they offered losers consent instead of trying to run roughshod over Democracy though.

 

Not sure a Brexiteer is best placed to lecture on democracy.

[Sujo]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

You think Scotland could control it's own monetary policy such as interest rates and printing money while using the GBP having left the UK?

 

Interesting. ????

 

 

That should be a matter for scotland to decide, not england.

[bkkcanuck8]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

It would go a lot further than interest rates. It would affect many aspects of monetary policy. 

 

https://www.worldfirst.com/app/uploads/2014/08/WF-Scottish-Independance-White-Paper.pdf

 

 

How can you be Independent when another nation decides your interest rates, ability to print money etc. Do you even know what Independent means?

 

 

If you were to define independent sovereign countries with relation to that definition - you would not sign ANY trade deals or ANY international treaties....

 

Sovereignty does not mean you don't sign trade deals or international treaties - it means that you are free to make your own decisions and live with the repercussions.   i.e. the UK was always sovereign since it was within their control to leave the EU after having their own referendum and did not have to ask permission of the EU.  Scotland does not have that right now.  A sovereign Scotland would be able to sign up to be part of a greater block of sovereign countries (the EU) or not...  As far as currency and joining the EUR... Estonia before joining implemented a currency board system beforehand (other response defining what a currency board would be). 

[NiceGuyEddy]

47 minutes ago, Sujo said:

That should be a matter for scotland to decide, not england.

You still don't get it. The Scottish already decided to remain part of the UK when they had their 'once-in-a-lifetime' independence referendum. The seperatists lost by a huge margin too.

[Phulublub]

11 minutes ago, NiceGuyEddy said:

You still don't get it. The Scottish already decided to remain part of the UK when they had their 'once-in-a-lifetime' independence referendum. The seperatists lost by a huge margin too.

I do not believe (to paraphrase one of your like minded posters) that "once in a liftime" is or was legally binding.

 

In any case, 2014 was debated in the context of staying the Unon or you will likely have to leave the EU.  Brexit changes everything for many in Scotland.

 

PH

[bkkcanuck8]

11 minutes ago, NiceGuyEddy said:

You still don't get it. The Scottish already decided to remain part of the UK when they had their 'once-in-a-lifetime' independence referendum. The seperatists lost by a huge margin too.

The selling point was stay in the UK to stay in the EU - leave and you have to start outside of the EU...  Scotland as a whole voted to stay in the EU... Therefore, it is only fair to ask Scotland to decide now that the UK has left...  If Scotland were truly sovereign in the UK Union... they would not have to ask to hold an official referendum.   Things change, and as a consequence an opening was made for the sovereignty question to come up again... If not for Brexit, it truly would have been a once in a generation referendum... but those are the breaks... now it is time to live with them.

[vogie]

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Not sure a Brexiteer is best placed to lecture on democracy.

"You told us that oil was gonna be £1 million a barrel, you can now buy a barrel for a tenner doon the Barras.????????????

 

[NiceGuyEddy]

1 hour ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

The selling point was stay in the UK to stay in the EU - leave and you have to start outside of the EU...  Scotland as a whole voted to stay in the EU... Therefore, it is only fair to ask Scotland to decide now that the UK has left...  If Scotland were truly sovereign in the UK Union... they would not have to ask to hold an official referendum.   Things change, and as a consequence an opening was made for the sovereignty question to come up again... If not for Brexit, it truly would have been a once in a generation referendum... but those are the breaks... now it is time to live with them.

I disagree. It is incorrect to say that the selling point was to stay in the EU. There was a lot more at stake than EU membership and as far as I can rememeber the Scottish electorate were well informed of all of the possible consequences their vote would have.

The truth of the whole matter is that the losing side cannot accept that they lost and will look for any excuse to try and change that. The EU argument is just convenient for them at this particular time.

It was not a 'once-in-a-lifetime' (unless the nationalists lost, then we'll have another every few years until we win) referendum.