UK set to formally apply for trans-Pacific trade bloc membership

[vinny41]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

 

Then, not for the first time, you are contradicting yourself.

 

Either most voters knew it, or we didn't.

 

However much you are now trying to say so, they cannot both be true.

A fortnight before the referendum in 2016, then Prime Minister David Cameron (who was campaigning for Remain) said during an interview:

“The British public would be voting if we leave would be to leave the EU and leave the single market. We’d then have to negotiate a trade deal from outside with the European Union...  But if we leave the EU and the German finance minister was very clear, you’re either in or you’re out, leaving the single market, you’ve then got to negotiate a trade deal.”

https://fullfact.org/europe/what-was-promised-about-customs-union-referendum/

[Laughing Gravy]

9 hours ago, vinny41 said:

A fortnight before the referendum in 2016, then Prime Minister David Cameron (who was campaigning for Remain) said during an interview:

“The British public would be voting if we leave would be to leave the EU and leave the single market. We’d then have to negotiate a trade deal from outside with the European Union...  But if we leave the EU and the German finance minister was very clear, you’re either in or you’re out, leaving the single market, you’ve then got to negotiate a trade deal.”

https://fullfact.org/europe/what-was-promised-about-customs-union-referendum/

Thanks for reminding us all once again and especially for the remainers who either pretend it didn't happen or have selective memory.

 

No doubt this will need explaining again on every related Brexit thread we have.

[CharlieH]

Reported post/ image removed.

[CharlieH]

Reported troll remwrk removed.

 

DO NOT get personal in your comments.

[candide]

17 hours ago, vinny41 said:

A fortnight before the referendum in 2016, then Prime Minister David Cameron (who was campaigning for Remain) said during an interview:

“The British public would be voting if we leave would be to leave the EU and leave the single market. We’d then have to negotiate a trade deal from outside with the European Union...  But if we leave the EU and the German finance minister was very clear, you’re either in or you’re out, leaving the single market, you’ve then got to negotiate a trade deal.”

https://fullfact.org/europe/what-was-promised-about-customs-union-referendum/

So people who voted for Brexit did so because they believed what Cameron said more than what Brexit proponents said? Sorry but It's not a convincing assertion.

[transam]

6 minutes ago, candide said:

So people who voted for Brexit did so because they believed what Cameron said more than what Brexit proponents said? Sorry but It's not a convincing assertion.

Don't you think it's time you stop going back five years and accept that the UK is no longer in your club...?  ????

[7by7]

18 hours ago, vinny41 said:

A fortnight before the referendum in 2016, then Prime Minister David Cameron (who was campaigning for Remain) said during an interview:

“The British public would be voting if we leave would be to leave the EU and leave the single market. We’d then have to negotiate a trade deal from outside with the European Union...  But if we leave the EU and the German finance minister was very clear, you’re either in or you’re out, leaving the single market, you’ve then got to negotiate a trade deal.”

https://fullfact.org/europe/what-was-promised-about-customs-union-referendum/

 

Yet again, you are saying that sufficient of the undecided were convinced to vote Leave by a warning of a major consequences of leaving by a prominent Remain campaigner!

 

Makes one wonder why the various Leave campaigns spent so much money advertising their arguments against what Cameron and other Remain campaigners said!

 

Makes one wonder why Michael Gove, as quoted and proven incorrect in your link, felt compelled to say "There is a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European nations have access to, regardless of whether they are in or out of the euro or EU. After we vote to leave we will remain in this zone."

 

To counter Cameron's, and other's, warnings promises were made by Leave campaigners.

 

These promises by Gove and other leave campaigners that we would retain full access to the single market post Brexit have proven to be false.

 

Promises of us remaining in a free trade zone, with their associated hints, if not actual promises, of also retaining full access to the customs union, by Leave campaigners have also proven to be false.

 

Now you may say that you ignored these promises by leave campaigners and voted Leave despite Cameron's warnings; but to claim that sufficient of the undecided did the same is ridiculous.

[7by7]

8 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Thanks for reminding us all once again and especially for the remainers who either pretend it didn't happen or have selective memory.

 

No doubt this will need explaining again on every related Brexit thread we have.

 

So you, too, voted Leave based on warnings from the Remain campaign rather than promises from the Leave campaign?

 

Well, that's two out of 17,410,742!

[vinny41]

2 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

Yet again, you are saying that sufficient of the undecided were convinced to vote Leave by a warning of a major consequences of leaving by a prominent Remain campaigner!

 

Makes one wonder why the various Leave campaigns spent so much money advertising their arguments against what Cameron and other Remain campaigners said!

 

Makes one wonder why Michael Gove, as quoted and proven incorrect in your link, felt compelled to say "There is a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European nations have access to, regardless of whether they are in or out of the euro or EU. After we vote to leave we will remain in this zone."

 

To counter Cameron's, and other's, warnings promises were made by Leave campaigners.

 

These promises by Gove and other leave campaigners that we would retain full access to the single market post Brexit have proven to be false.

 

Promises of us remaining in a free trade zone, with their associated hints, if not actual promises, of also retaining full access to the customs union, by Leave campaigners have also proven to be false.

 

Now you may say that you ignored these promises by leave campaigners and voted Leave despite Cameron's warnings; but to claim that sufficient of the undecided did the same is ridiculous.

Why the Remain Campaign Lost the Brexit Vote

 Speaking to the BBC on Friday morning, Steve Hilton, a former political adviser to Cameron, conceded that the negative campaign, which was dubbed Project Fear, had backfired. Rather than winning people over, it alienated many voters who had legitimate concerns about the E.U. "People have expressed real anger at being ignored by the system, and I think this is at the heart" of what happened, Hilton said.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/why-the-remain-campaign-lost-the-brexit-vote

 

There are some people that believe Project Fear from the Remain camp and the back of the queue comment by Obama pushed the undecided to vote leave

I do wonder if there was no campaigning by either side which way the vote would have gone I think it would have still been a close call as the majority of leavers and remainers had already make their minds up on how they would vote

[vinny41]

15 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

So you, too, voted Leave based on warnings from the Remain campaign rather than promises from the Leave campaign?

 

Well, that's two out of 17,410,742!

Incorrect I posted last year I made my decision well before the announcement of a referendum as did the majority of leave and remainer voters according to polls published

[jayboy]

On 1/31/2021 at 7:02 PM, BusyB said:

 

 

 

Do you in the UK have a n y idea what the Brits did in Asia and SEA?

 

 

 

 

Left a legacy of excellent infrastructure, the rule of law, excellent legal systems, the English language, parliamentary democracy and  afternoon tea.

[7by7]

19 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Why the Remain Campaign Lost the Brexit Vote

 Speaking to the BBC on Friday morning, Steve Hilton, a former political adviser to Cameron, conceded that the negative campaign, which was dubbed Project Fear, had backfired. Rather than winning people over, it alienated many voters who had legitimate concerns about the E.U. "People have expressed real anger at being ignored by the system, and I think this is at the heart" of what happened, Hilton said.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/why-the-remain-campaign-lost-the-brexit-vote

 

There are some people that believe Project Fear from the Remain camp and the back of the queue comment by Obama pushed the undecided to vote leave

I do wonder if there was no campaigning by either side which way the vote would have gone I think it would have still been a close call as the majority of leavers and remainers had already make their minds up on how they would vote

 So you are now calling Cameron's warning part of 'Project Fear!'

 

Make your mind up!

 

BTW, the result was a close call! 51.89% for and 48.11% against. 

[7by7]

17 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Incorrect I posted last year I made my decision well before the announcement of a referendum as did the majority of leave and remainer voters according to polls published

 And you are claiming that Leave would have won anyway because enough agreed with you and were not swayed by the campaigns?

 

On what basis?

[vinny41]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

 So you are now calling Cameron's warning part of 'Project Fear!'

 

Make your mind up!

 

BTW, the result was a close call! 51.89% for and 48.11% against. 

Did you read the article and what Steve Hilton stated 

Why the Remain Campaign Lost the Brexit Vote

 Speaking to the BBC on Friday morning, Steve Hilton, a former political adviser to Cameron, conceded that the negative campaign, which was dubbed Project Fear, had backfired. Rather than winning people over, it alienated many voters who had legitimate concerns about the E.U. "People have expressed real anger at being ignored by the system, and I think this is at the heart" of what happened, Hilton said.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/why-the-remain-campaign-lost-the-brexit-vote

 

Hopefully you can understand it 2nd time around

[vinny41]

9 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 And you are claiming that Leave would have won anyway because enough agreed with you and were not swayed by the campaigns?

 

On what basis?

read my post again I said the majority of leave and remain voters had already made their minds up  before the announcement of a referendum if you remember we have already discussed this with polls going as far back as 2010

57% of Remainers had made their minds up before campaign started

58% of Leavers had made their minds up before campaign started 

https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2019/03/lord-ashcroft-how-the-united-kingdom-voted-on-eu-referendum-day-and-why.html

Edited February 2, 2021 by vinny41
additional info

[vinny41]

15 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 So you are now calling Cameron's warning part of 'Project Fear!'

 

Make your mind up!

 

BTW, the result was a close call! 51.89% for and 48.11% against. 

I am sure that if Remain had won by 1 vote they woud have accepted the result is the same way that Tony Blair doesn't have issues about small majorities when it suits him

Tony Blair: I steamrollered devolution for Wales

but the Yes campaign victory in Wales was much closer - a majority of just under 7,000 (0.6%) of more than a million votes cast.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-politics-41199659

[7by7]

22 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Did you read the article and what Steve Hilton stated 

Why the Remain Campaign Lost the Brexit Vote

 Speaking to the BBC on Friday morning, Steve Hilton, a former political adviser to Cameron, conceded that the negative campaign, which was dubbed Project Fear, had backfired. Rather than winning people over, it alienated many voters who had legitimate concerns about the E.U. "People have expressed real anger at being ignored by the system, and I think this is at the heart" of what happened, Hilton said.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/why-the-remain-campaign-lost-the-brexit-vote

 

Hopefully you can understand it 2nd time around

 

Make your mind up!

 

You say that Cameron's warning was proof that Leave voters ignored the promises of the Leave campaign and knew that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market and customs union.

 

Then you say it was dismissed by most as part of the so called project fear!

 

Then you say Leave voters believed him.

 

Then you say they dismissed it as part of project fear.

 

Round and round in circles you go; just like the Oozlum bird; with eventually the same result.

 

 

[vinny41]

7 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

Make your mind up!

 

You say that Cameron's warning was proof that Leave voters ignored the promises of the Leave campaign and knew that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market and customs union.

 

Then you say it was dismissed by most as part of the so called project fear!

 

Then you say Leave voters believed him.

 

Then you say they dismissed it as part of project fear.

 

Round and round in circles you go; just like the Oozlum bird; with eventually the same result.

 

 

At least I have accepted the 2016 EU referendum result that was which took place 5 years ago this June, while you are still trying to figure out why you lost

[7by7]

22 hours ago, vinny41 said:

read my post again I said the majority of leave and remain voters had already made their minds up  before the announcement of a referendum if you remember we have already discussed this with polls going as far back as 2010

57% of Remainers had made their minds up before campaign started

58% of Leavers had made their minds up before campaign started 

https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2019/03/lord-ashcroft-how-the-united-kingdom-voted-on-eu-referendum-day-and-why.html

 

Odd how Brexiteers are so dismissive of polls whose results they don't care for; but treat those whose results they like as holy writ!

 

The most common argument provided by Brexiteers for dismissing polls is the relatively small sample size. Well, from your link: "On referendum day I surveyed 12,369 people after they had voted."

 

12,369 people out of the 33,577,342 who voted; that's just 0.04%!

 

I am aware, of course, that proper polling organisations also often have similarly low sample sizes in relation to the population. Which is why, as I have often said, the only poll which really counts is that at the ballot box.

 

22 hours ago, vinny41 said:

57% of Remainers had made their minds up before campaign started

58% of Leavers had made their minds up before campaign started

 What your link actually says is

Quote

Just under half (43 per cent) of voters said they always knew how they would end up voting or decided more than a year ago. Nearly a quarter (24 per cent) decided in the week before referendum day; and one in ten decided yesterday, or on the day they filled in their postal vote.

 

It seems, though, that you have added up the figures in his table. But in so doing you have included people who said that they had decided since the beginning of the year but before the month before the vote (i.e. between 1/1/16 and 23/5/16). As the campaigns unofficially began when Cameron announced the referendum on the 20th of February, to include those people in the already decided is less than equitable 

[7by7]

22 hours ago, vinny41 said:

I am sure that if Remain had won by 1 vote they woud have accepted the result is the same way that Tony Blair doesn't have issues about small majorities when it suits him

Tony Blair: I steamrollered devolution for Wales

but the Yes campaign victory in Wales was much closer - a majority of just under 7,000 (0.6%) of more than a million votes cast.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-politics-41199659

 

Under the terms of the Act, the result would be decided by 50% plus one vote.

 

There was a petition on the Government website echoing Farage's remarks "We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the Remain or Leave vote is less than 60%, based on a turnout less than 75%, there should be another referendum." This was rejected by Cameron and other leading Remain campaigners. There were also extreme doubts over it's validity, with numerous signatures being removed after allegations of fraud. (Source)

 

The only politician I can find who called for a second referendum in the case of a close result is Farage. Nigel Farage wants second referendum if Remain campaign scrapes narrow win. Of course, he soon changed his tune when the result was announced! Nigel Farage says Leave win marks UK 'independence day'

 

But remember that calls for a second referendum where for one on whether to accept the terms of the withdrawal agreement or not; coming after Parliament, thanks largely to the shenanigans of Johnson, Rees-Mogg and their mates in the ERG, showed that it couldn't agree.

[7by7]

35 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

At least I have accepted the 2016 EU referendum result that was which took place 5 years ago this June, while you are still trying to figure out why you lost

 

Wrong; again. I accepted the referendum result. But, as I say above, when Parliament could not agree on a withdrawal agreement I joined with those saying we, the people, should be allowed to decide. I hate to quote Noel Edmunds, but; deal or no deal.

 

I know why Remain lost; the various Leave campaigns presented better arguments than the Remain ones. I have always said that Leave didn't win; Remain lost.

 

As the events during the negotiations of both the WA and the trade agreement and then since 1st January have shown, the arguments, indeed promises, of the Leave campaigns were mostly false.

[vinny41]

3 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

Under the terms of the Act, the result would be decided by 50% plus one vote.

 

There was a petition on the Government website echoing Farage's remarks "We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the Remain or Leave vote is less than 60%, based on a turnout less than 75%, there should be another referendum." This was rejected by Cameron and other leading Remain campaigners. There were also extreme doubts over it's validity, with numerous signatures being removed after allegations of fraud. (Source)

 

The only politician I can find who called for a second referendum in the case of a close result is Farage. Nigel Farage wants second referendum if Remain campaign scrapes narrow win. Of course, he soon changed his tune when the result was announced! Nigel Farage says Leave win marks UK 'independence day'

 

But remember that calls for a second referendum where for one on whether to accept the terms of the withdrawal agreement or not; coming after Parliament, thanks largely to the shenanigans of Johnson, Rees-Mogg and their mates in the ERG, showed that it couldn't agree.

Nothing to do with

Labour MPs should have voted for Theresa May’s Brexit deal – then the party wouldn’t be in this mess

Labour MPs cannot say they didn’t know. It was pointed out at the time that May’s withdrawal agreement was what the Labour leadership said it wanted: it was in every respect what they said a Labour government would have negotiated. The only differences between Jeremy Corbyn and May were about the non-binding political declaration setting out the government’s aspirations for the long-term trade deal

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-corbyn-defeat-support-may-brexit-deal-a9246871.html

[7by7]

^^^^^^

Present as many opinion pieces as you like, @vinny41.

 

Doesn't change the facts.

 

I stand by my previous.

[vinny41]

2 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

Wrong; again. I accepted the referendum result. But, as I say above, when Parliament could not agree on a withdrawal agreement I joined with those saying we, the people, should be allowed to decide. I hate to quote Noel Edmunds, but; deal or no deal.

 

I know why Remain lost; the various Leave campaigns presented better arguments than the Remain ones. I have always said that Leave didn't win; Remain lost.

 

As the events during the negotiations of both the WA and the trade agreement and then since 1st January have shown, the arguments, indeed promises, of the Leave campaigns were mostly false.

And Most leavers would have accepted a 2nd referendum on deal or no deal but then we all know that wasn't acceptable to the <deleted> they wan't 3 options 

1) Remain

2) deal

3) No deal

they wanted 2nd dibs of the original referendum

[vinny41]

7 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

Odd how Brexiteers are so dismissive of polls whose results they don't care for; but treat those whose results they like as holy writ!

 

The most common argument provided by Brexiteers for dismissing polls is the relatively small sample size. Well, from your link: "On referendum day I surveyed 12,369 people after they had voted."

 

12,369 people out of the 33,577,342 who voted; that's just 0.04%!

 

I am aware, of course, that proper polling organisations also often have similarly low sample sizes in relation to the population. Which is why, as I have often said, the only poll which really counts is that at the ballot box.

 

 What your link actually says is

 

It seems, though, that you have added up the figures in his table. But in so doing you have included people who said that they had decided since the beginning of the year but before the month before the vote (i.e. between 1/1/16 and 23/5/16). As the campaigns unofficially began when Cameron announced the referendum on the 20th of February, to include those people in the already decided is less than equitable 

If you take the 36% leavers that always knew which way the would vote and the 7% that knew which way they would vote more than a year ago and the 15% that knew how they would vote since the beginning  of the year which i read as 01/01/2016 the end result is

58% of Leavers had made their minds up before the date of the referendum was announced on  20/02/2016

[Phulublub]

7 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

And Most leavers would have accepted a 2nd referendum on deal or no deal but then we all know that wasn't acceptable to the <deleted> they wan't 3 options 

1) Remain

2) deal

3) No deal

they wanted 2nd dibs of the original referendum

How do you conclude that?  Have you seen a poll?

 

PH

[vinny41]

8 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

How do you conclude that?  Have you seen a poll?

 

PH

MPs would have to decide whether a second referendum ballot should offer two paths to Brexit, or a choice between leaving and remaining in the EU as before.

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/what-could-the-question-be-in-a-second-referendum/

[Phulublub]

7 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

MPs would have to decide whether a second referendum ballot should offer two paths to Brexit, or a choice between leaving and remaining in the EU as before.

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/what-could-the-question-be-in-a-second-referendum/

But you said "Most Leavers would have accepted...." On what evidence do you make that claim?

 

PH

[vinny41]

13 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

But you said "Most Leavers would have accepted...." On what evidence do you make that claim?

 

PH

Most leavers that I have spoken with had no issues with a 2nd referendum vote on deal or no deal

so long as a 2nd referendum didn't include any of the options of remaining on a ballot paper 

[7by7]

33 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

And Most leavers would have accepted a 2nd referendum on deal or no deal but then we all know that wasn't acceptable to the <deleted> they wan't 3 options 

1) Remain

2) deal

3) No deal

they wanted 2nd dibs of the original referendum

 "They wanted 2nd dibs of the original referendum."

 

Just like Farage said he would demand had he lost by a small margin. From the Mirror interview with him linked to above; “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”

 

So it's ok by you for Farage to want a second referendum in the event of a close result, but not Remainers; who you have called an expletive removed by the forum software?

 

Of course, as said, being the hypocrite that he is, having won with 51.89% of the vote Farage soon changed his mind about the need for a two thirds to one third majority!