''Protecting" Thai children from US father

[BananaGuy]

Hi All

Many posts here address the father's rights to access/custody of child to Thai mother (and as far as i can tell, Thai law does not recognise de facto relationships and a Thai mother is assumed to have 100% custody if child born outside marriage).

 

My 'problem' is understanding the situation from the mother's point of view ... in particular ... what does she need to do to prevent her children being re-located outside Thailand by the father?

 

As briefly as i can ...

 

My Thai partner's adult Thai daughter has been in a relationship with a Thai-US citizen for 4 or 5 years ... they have lived cordially in Bangkok in (what elsewhere would be described as) a de facto relationship. They have 1 yo and 3 yo daughters both born in Thailand. Father is named on both birth certificates but as far as i know has not registered his relationship in any other way.

 

Father is a minor sports personality and spends most of the year working in various other countries. He is dual US/Thai citizen. His mother (ie the childs' grandmother) is Thai-born US/Thai dual citizen resident in US and married to a US citizen. 

 

Father is currently on contract to middle-East club but returning to Thailand soon.

 

Mother and children currently live in Thai village with my partner and her mother and a few other family members. Mother is currently receiving modest financial support from the father, but he seems to have no interest in visiting or living in village in future.

Plan "A" was to apply for US passports for mother and children, mother to undergo training for US job (which she has done) and then all move to US and spend most of their time there, with visits to Thailand.

 

Plan "B" has recently emerged from the father and US grandmother ... this involves only the children moving to US (!). The sole argument that i have heard in favour of this plan is that ''US schools would be better for the kids than a Thai village education''.

 

I am sceptical on several levels. For one, the enhanced risk of getting shot during school hours, but in particular, the father and US grandmother want to move into action in the next few months ... obviously way before any formal education begins for kids this age.

 

While i (and my partner's family i think) respect the right of the father to maintain contact etc., there is an apprehension that if mother agreed to either an accompanied or unaccompanied visit by the children to the US ... they may never be seen in Thailand again ...

 

Resources on the Thai side are limited but my Thai partner and i are in the process of building a small house in the village, big enough to offer accomodation to mother and children for the forseeable future.

 

I expect the father's financial contribution to dry up if Plan "B" fails to happen, but child's mother's English is good, she has a work ethic and when the economy bounces again she is capable of getting work in Bangkok or Chang Mai while the village family look after kids.

 

I'm happy to do what i can to support this extended family if required, but currently stuck in Australia but regardless of my input, the Thai grandmother (ie my partner) and her mother have house, land and rice leases and plenty of family support in the village. Nobody is likely to starve. Village has a passable primary school.

 

A longer story than i hoped ...  but to the point ... has anyone had a similar experience or any advice to offer the mother on steps she should take to safeguard her children? Or for that matter, advice on what she should not do ?

 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

As far as I know the foreign father would not be allowed to take the children out of Thailand without written approval from the mother of the children. That alone should stop all possible bad scenarios. 

[BananaGuy]

Thanks.

 

In my experience, outbound border control is usually way less thorough than inbound.

 

I'd be interested to hear how Thai outward border control operates in the case of children accompanied by one parent ... if, for example he showed their US passports or his passport with them noted on it (i have no idea how the US parent/child passport system works).

 

 

[MikeyIdea]

Age really matters. I highly doubt that a father regardless of surname (nationality) can get a 1 and a 3 year old on Thai passports out of Thailand without the formal form from the amphur (which must be requested by the other legal guardian). They are quite strict with young children. The same could apply for Thai mothers too but less likely (Thai Thai child even)

 

I was stopped with my 12 year old daughter at Suvarnabhumi airport and they didn't accept the handwritten note from the Thai mother and had to call her. I travelled again when my daughter was 15 and they didn't ask for anything... 

 

As always, everything is a bit unpredictable in Thailand though

 

Foreign passports with no entry stamp.

That's a big no-no. Not going to happen

 

[BananaGuy]

Thanks for that Mikey... i  hadn't thought about the lack of entry stamps ... nice to know their US passports (i believe the father/US grandmother is in the process of applying for them) would likely be questioned without them.

 

As you say though, sometimes things do not go according to the rules in Thailand ...

 

... does anyone know of a more pro-active approach the Thai mother can take? Is there for example a 'no-fly' list she can get her children on?

[greg67]

On 2/10/2021 at 4:36 PM, OneMoreFarang said:

As far as I know the foreign father would not be allowed to take the children out of Thailand without written approval from the mother of the children. That alone should stop all possible bad scenarios. 

No always the case. I traveled with my Thai daughter to Europe several times without her mother... She was 14, 16 and 17... No single question was asked by immigration or airline staff.

[Mike Rodik]

there is something like mutual agreement about child abduction between US & Thailand...

[AgMech Cowboy]

On 2/10/2021 at 4:18 PM, BananaGuy said:

For one, the enhanced risk of getting shot during school hours,

Ridiculous. The only concern is that US children are more aggressive and bullying, but the gun issue isn't really there. I'd also be concerned with the poor discipline in the US schools now and the 'racial' issues. I was lucky enough to put my son in an international school here, but also realize he's been sheltered too much.

Sending the children to a Thai village school will be just as stressful to them as the US schools. Mix race children are bullied here in the village and Bangkok public schools.

[AgMech Cowboy]

On 2/10/2021 at 4:18 PM, BananaGuy said:

any advice to offer the mother on steps she should take to safeguard her children?

I didn't see the part in here about the Mother needing to "safeguard her children". Considering the Father's lifestyle, I do not see him wanting to kidnap the children. It seems only he and his Mother are offering an alternative to a better education (system) than the Thai public schools. It would be great if he'd pay for an International school education, but the good ones are expensive. Being that the Father's Mother is Thai, she will be very familiar with the different schools and systems. Let the parents of the children work this out.

[Panadadad]

On 2/10/2021 at 4:18 PM, BananaGuy said:

Hi All

Many posts here address the father's rights to access/custody of child to Thai mother (and as far as i can tell, Thai law does not recognise de facto relationships and a Thai mother is assumed to have 100% custody if child born outside marriage).

 

My 'problem' is understanding the situation from the mother's point of view ... in particular ... what does she need to do to prevent her children being re-located outside Thailand by the father?

 

As briefly as i can ...

 

My Thai partner's adult Thai daughter has been in a relationship with a Thai-US citizen for 4 or 5 years ... they have lived cordially in Bangkok in (what elsewhere would be described as) a de facto relationship. They have 1 yo and 3 yo daughters both born in Thailand. Father is named on both birth certificates but as far as i know has not registered his relationship in any other way.

 

Father is a minor sports personality and spends most of the year working in various other countries. He is dual US/Thai citizen. His mother (ie the childs' grandmother) is Thai-born US/Thai dual citizen resident in US and married to a US citizen. 

 

Father is currently on contract to middle-East club but returning to Thailand soon.

 

Mother and children currently live in Thai village with my partner and her mother and a few other family members. Mother is currently receiving modest financial support from the father, but he seems to have no interest in visiting or living in village in future.

Plan "A" was to apply for US passports for mother and children, mother to undergo training for US job (which she has done) and then all move to US and spend most of their time there, with visits to Thailand.

 

Plan "B" has recently emerged from the father and US grandmother ... this involves only the children moving to US (!). The sole argument that i have heard in favour of this plan is that ''US schools would be better for the kids than a Thai village education''.

 

I am sceptical on several levels. For one, the enhanced risk of getting shot during school hours, but in particular, the father and US grandmother want to move into action in the next few months ... obviously way before any formal education begins for kids this age.

 

While i (and my partner's family i think) respect the right of the father to maintain contact etc., there is an apprehension that if mother agreed to either an accompanied or unaccompanied visit by the children to the US ... they may never be seen in Thailand again ...

 

Resources on the Thai side are limited but my Thai partner and i are in the process of building a small house in the village, big enough to offer accomodation to mother and children for the forseeable future.

 

I expect the father's financial contribution to dry up if Plan "B" fails to happen, but child's mother's English is good, she has a work ethic and when the economy bounces again she is capable of getting work in Bangkok or Chang Mai while the village family look after kids.

 

I'm happy to do what i can to support this extended family if required, but currently stuck in Australia but regardless of my input, the Thai grandmother (ie my partner) and her mother have house, land and rice leases and plenty of family support in the village. Nobody is likely to starve. Village has a passable primary school.

 

A longer story than i hoped ...  but to the point ... has anyone had a similar experience or any advice to offer the mother on steps she should take to safeguard her children? Or for that matter, advice on what she should not do ?

 

 

First of your fear of kids being “shot in school “ is absolutely absurd! The chances are far greater that they be killed on the road here in Thailand or even struck by lightning twice in the same place !! Second there is no way the father alone can get a US passport for children under 16 years of age both parents and child have to be present at the US embassy in Thailand since that’s where said children reside. After children turn 16 years old only 1 parent needs to be present all of this only after the us citizen father applies for consular report of birth abroad which also needs mother present and if not legally married at the time of birth requires paternity test regardless of if his name is on the birth certificate or not ....!I know this because I just went through the process with my daughter.. So tell your partner to quit worrying and enjoy the time with the grandkids Oh and if the children’s mother is just going to dump the kids with extended family and go play in pataya why not let them go live with the father

[4MyEgo]

On 2/10/2021 at 8:18 PM, BananaGuy said:

Father is currently on contract to middle-East club but returning to Thailand soon.

 

Mother and children currently live in Thai village with my partner and her mother and a few other family members. Mother is currently receiving modest financial support from the father, but he seems to have no interest in visiting or living in village in future.

 

 

In my opinion, the father sounds like an a$$, a cheap Charlie and a snob along with his mother controlling the purse strings.

 

What is wrong with him contributing to the kids going to a half decent school here, my sister-in-law is separated from her x husband who lives overseas, and he pays for their daughters private schooling, kid is surrounded with family in the village and is doing just fine and communicates with her father on facetime, thank goodness for technology.

 

This guy sounds like a control freak and a mummy's boy, tell the wife of this halfwit to f him off, the kids will survive regardless, wanting to take them out of Thailand to offer them a better education is ridiculous, what's wrong with leaving them here, once out, no chance of getting them back, because the US Courts will costs her a fortune which she ain't got and he and mummy dearest know that.

 

He can visit them, he can get off of his high horse and compromise to stay in a hotel near the village or rent a decent house or facetime with them as my sister-in-laws x does and visits once a year and spends time in a hotel with them for two to 3 weeks at a time.

 

I left the rat race to give my kids a better quality of life here, they are being educated in a private school, and they will have the option when they get older to return to their old country if they so chose to, but it ain't all that pretty, a life of working like a dog to make a living to survive, here they can leave school and not even work because dad has hit all the home runs for them, not that they will be sitting idol, while he is alive, and whilst alive will do his best to steer them into a business of some kind.

 

I am sure with the support of family here the kids will do just fine, if he wants to get off of his high horse with his mummy dearest, then he should compromise and leave the kids here, with the option to join them every now and again or he can chose to live in the US and see them when he can.

 

He didn't plan things very well did he, or did he have an ulterior motive down the track with mummy dearest in his ear, sounds like it to me and if the wife does move to the US, one can see how it will pan out, seen it before many times, mummy dearest will roost and the wife will have no support from family back here, it will be awful and only end up in divorce with the kids suffering, like I said, best to leave them here, lots of love and a better life in my opinion.

 

Best of luck to them.

[khunPer]

On 2/10/2021 at 10:18 AM, BananaGuy said:

A longer story than i hoped ...  but to the point ... has anyone had a similar experience or any advice to offer the mother on steps she should take to safeguard her children? Or for that matter, advice on what she should not do ?

A non married father's name on a Thai birth certificate gives no rights to the father, unless he has a court order (with DNA test) being approved as father; or an amphor-certificate when the child is at least 7 years of age.

 

A Thai child can only have a Thai passport with both mother's and father's approval and attendance at a passport issuing office (talking from experience, a power of attorney was not accepted).

 

In some cases it's no problem for a foreign father to leave Thailand with a Thai child having a valid Thai passport, especially if family name is the same. However, the younger the child is, or children are, the more attention the immigration might have. In principle the father needs an approval from the mother, which is an official letter from the local amphor office.

 

To my knowledge, and experience – I'm father to a half Thai child, and I've been travelling alone abroad with my child with consent from the mother, and certified amphor-document – it would not be legally possible for an unregistered father to take a Thai child out of Thailand without the mother's consent. Doing it without consent would be abduction.

 

 

Concerning schooling

It's very likely that US schools would be better than Thai village schools, especially if the children's future is outside of Thailand. If the future is within the kingdom, Thai language and culture are extremely important factors.

 

If the father has a reasonable income, and care for his children, an English Program/Bilingual private school could be an excellent option, followed by an international school after the six primary years.

[BananaGuy]

Khunper thank you for your reasoned and helpful replies ... i will study them further.

 

to other recent replies ... thank you (i guess) for responding but some go way too far in assuming a narrative that i have not described at all ... any suggestion of 'cheap charlie', mother going off to work in Pattaya etc etc is more (another guess) a projection of your own sad experiences. Not unusual on this very public anonymous forum but i suggest to you that nothing in my re-telling of this story suggests that sort of behaviour by either parent!

 

My concern here is that the 'balance of power' is heavily weighted towards the US grandmother and father, because they currently supply the only direct financial support, they have access to US legal advice, they are actively pursuing US passport/visa applications (for the children, not the mother) and they have clearly stated their desire that the children should re-locate to US in the next few months, without the mother and despite both children being very pre-school age.

 

I do not think that my concern amounts to a desire to control anything on my part ... rather i would like to be sure the mother is as well-informed as possible.

 

Regarding my US school shooting comment ... i thought it a rather obvious attempt at black humour ... some respondents appear to find it offensive so apologies for that ... maybe more objectively, my opinion is that even if the US education system is 'superior' to the Thai system (very debatable), i have serious doubts that removing two (largely-Thai speaking) pre-schoolers from their village environment, friends and extended family and putting them into that system in the primary care of their one (working) US grandmother does not stack up.

 

 

[BTB1977]

The Thai mother and father have a plan to better the lives of their children.  And you want them to stay in Thailand and work 7 days a week for 300 baht a day . 

It's none of your business. You appear to be a drama queen. And your fears of America are all BS. 

[bermondburi]

The wish to relocate the children to the US is admirable, and will be far more beneficial to the children in the long run. 

 

To the OP I would ask what business it is of yours.