Throwing caution to the wind and b u g g e r the diet – How about you .

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, hotchilli said:

Or at the age of 40-something you could be hooked up to an oxygen tank.. why do you think it will only affect the end of you life?

I don't know anyone on oxygen at 40 because of smoking. Do you have any stats to back that up?

 

That's not a positive for smoking though- up to me smoking would be banned in any public place including outside, but only because I don't like other people's second hand smoke in my space.

[BigStar]

22 hours ago, Kelsall said:

Genetics plays a big role.  Pick your parents wisely.

A small role, perhaps 35%. Nothing to count on. 

[BigStar]

21 hours ago, OswaldBastable said:

You originally posted, "Sounds like useless alcoholics leading vacuous lives. Can't see any role model there, sorry."

The list you now give is a list of equally 'vacuous' pursuits, just different pursuits from sitting in a bar drinking. 

You can make any in the list as useless and vacuous as you feel you must to self-medicate and save yourself from having to move and to think. And this would also help increase your rate of cognitive decline along with the probability of reaching infirmity, chronic illness and pain, and death much more quickly.

 

So, yes, get drunk & pig out during whatever activity you choose. But I never seem to see drunks lifting weights and doing intervals, applying the mental stamina and focus needed to do so, in the gym for some reason. Why is that? Meanwhile study after study shows the benefits to seniors of exercise. Wot? 

 

You, on the other hand, could sit out in your car and guzzle down a bottle of Sangsom before you enter the gym and later congratulate yourself that you’ve proved beyond doubt that exercising is as useless and vacuous as sitting at a bar. I love this forum.???? Another example: hobbies. 

 

5 Reasons Hobbies are Critical to Senior Health

 

21 hours ago, OswaldBastable said:

After retirement we're just occupying ourselves with pointless activities while waiting to die.

Reading or watching movies have no inherent worth over sitting in a bar drinking.

Some do, notably drunks sitting around nightly in a beer bar as I noted above. Others, however, actually don’t, and exercise the choices and engage in meaningful activities more likely to forestall cognitive and physical decline--and may even help others as well. 

As noted, though it may take some effort, you can enjoy the effects of alcohol during most any activity. Nevertheless, reading just doesn’t have quite the same negative effects on your brain and metabolism as drunkenness does. You can't cite studies to the contrary. So if you don’t know this or refuse to believe it, then . . . carry on with the self-rationalizing silliness. ????
 

[BigStar]

19 hours ago, Bill Poster said:

I’m now wondering just how much having a happy frame of mind and trying not to excessively worry can play a part in the overall scheme of things . I consider my self a happy type of person but just lately after reading some of the comments here my frame of mind is a bit confused .

Why not just educate yourself about the principles and probable consequences involved, chose one lifestyle definitely, and so end the confusion? If Hamlet can reach a decision after a bit of dithering, so can you, right?

 

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles
And by opposing end them.

 

19 hours ago, Bill Poster said:

Just to night I had my evening meal but after I felt the urge to eat some thing sweet . A bowl of sliced banana with Birds custard .  As soon as I had finished the sweet and took the now empty bowl to the kitchen sink a strange feeling came over me , a feeling like I had some how let my self down. ????

Suddenly I'm thinking of a consumer who's just charged something superfluous on his credit card and then suddenly remembers the bill to come due the following month.

 

Trivial to fix and so end that little frown, petal. For example, keep blueberries, strawberries, or blackberries on hand for dessert after your evening feed. Readily available in Thailand and very cheap frozen at Makro. Taste great and I just never feel I’ve let myself down when I have any one of those. I don't worry about anything. (We're awfully worried about worrying here, as part of our rationalizing. But once you develop good habits, they're as automatic as breathing.) 

 

Birds custard nutrition

 

By contrast,

 

9 Ways Strawberries Can Protect Your Heart, Brain, Immunity, and More

 

[BigStar]

13 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I certainly ate far too much sugar and salt. I could scoff down a large bottle of flavoured sugar water, or consume a large bag of lollies without any ill effects.

Or so it seemed. In the video above Peter Attia makes the point that people start to become diabetic long before there's any sign of it. It's irresponsible to discount, for this naive audience, the cumulative effects of various negative behaviors, perhaps in combination. And did your inevitably becoming overweight really have nothing to do with your knee problems? ???? Which did, after all, make walking on Thai sidewalks and crossing via overpasses a bit more problematic.  

[OswaldBastable]

3 hours ago, BigStar said:

You, on the other hand, could sit out in your car and guzzle down a bottle of Sangsom before you enter the gym and later congratulate yourself that you’ve proved beyond doubt that exercising is as useless and vacuous as sitting at a bar. I love this forum.???? Another example: hobbies. 

Sadly, I'm locked in my hotel room with no opportunity to drink anything alcoholic, or visit a gym.

[sanuk711]

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/8/2021 at 11:48 PM, BigStar said:

Or so it seemed. In the video above Peter Attia makes the point that people start to become diabetic long before there's any sign of it. It's irresponsible to discount, for this naive audience, the cumulative effects of various negative behaviors, perhaps in combination. And did your inevitably becoming overweight really have nothing to do with your knee problems? ???? Which did, after all, make walking on Thai sidewalks and crossing via overpasses a bit more problematic.  

I was obviously referring to ill effects AT THE TIME.

Becoming overweight had more to do with changing from an active lifestyle to a sedentary one. When I changed from working an a hospital ward to an operating theatre my activity level fell by about 80%.

My knee problems were un diagnosed gout- so much for western doctors- I had to wait till a Thai consultant diagnosed gout in a 5 minute consultation. One western Dr claimed it was because I was wearing the wrong footware.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/9/2021 at 2:47 AM, OswaldBastable said:

Sadly, I'm locked in my hotel room with no opportunity to drink anything alcoholic, or visit a gym.

LOL. No need to visit a gym to exercise. Turn on some music ( tv usually has a music channel or two ) and dance energetically. All good and fun to boot.

[Fat is a type of crazy]

On 3/9/2021 at 1:19 AM, sanuk711 said:

That's a good video.

Bill's big thing during the coronavirus has been that Dr Fauci and others should tell it like it is - that being overweight is a huge risk factor. He is constantly saying that, as well as wearing masks and such, there should be a campaign saying that people can decrease their risks by prioritising health and diet. So though he is cynical about miracle diets he's pretty serious about the individual's responsibility for their diet.

[Lacessit]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. No need to visit a gym to exercise. Turn on some music ( tv usually has a music channel or two ) and dance energetically. All good and fun to boot.

Or just get on YouTube, this is what I use daily.

 

[BigStar]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

was obviously referring to ill effects AT THE TIME.

Which is, after all, meaningless and misleading. 

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Becoming overweight had more to do with changing from an active lifestyle to a sedentary one. When I changed from working an a hospital ward to an operating theatre my activity level fell by about 80%.

My knee problems were un diagnosed gout- so much for western doctors- I had to wait till a Thai consultant diagnosed gout in a 5 minute consultation. One western Dr claimed it was because I was wearing the wrong footware.

Well, no, one can be sedentary yet still maintain normal weight with good numbers across the board. We have far too much misplaced faith in exercise as means of losing weight around here. It may even make you gain weight, as you "work up an appetite."

But you've conveniently ignored the possible reasons for the gout, likely the ill effect of the diet you claimed caused no ill effects, now AT THE TIME.. E.g., Gout, Glucose Metabolism and Obesity: A Case Review So I don't think you've at all helped the OP's case for Throwing caution to the wind and b u g g e r the diet. On the contrary. :) 

[BigStar]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. No need to visit a gym to exercise. Turn on some music ( tv usually has a music channel or two ) and dance energetically. All good and fun to boot.

You've entirely missed his point. He's with our Throwing caution to the wind and b u g g e r the diet brigade. His issue is being unable to drink, not exercise. 

Ironically after disparaging reading in favor drinking, he has no idea he could have brought in a liter of spirits in his carry on bag, as posters here have affirmed. Fact, he might have got away with 2 liters. So that was rather self-defeating, no? Or, if he happened to read it, growing cognitive decline caused by previous drinking ensured that he'd forgotten. :)

 Alcohol use disorder is a 'major risk factor' for dementia

https://www.beingpatient.com/reading-improves-memory-prevent-dementia/

[BigStar]

3 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

That's a good video.

No, that's a silly video for the peanut gallery, the vast majority of whom love to hear any rationalization for continuing the path to obesity. Kinda like throwing peanuts to monkeys, except he's getting paid handsomely to do so. 

It rests on pretending to disprove the (false) assumption that better diet or exercise guarantees longevity. No one's immune to bad luck, effects of previous risky behavior, genetic disorders, or conditions undiagnosed perhaps through willful neglect. Fixx is a textbook example of two of these.

But when not being witlessly cheered on as he makes his way to the bank, what does Maher himself do? Oh, strict diet and exercise. :) WOT??? Why's that?

I have a trainer I see twice a week for formal weightlifting training, which I think is really important
I also have a stationary bike at home for days that I don’t go to the trainer. I like to sweat every day.

I got my diet in order 10 or 12 years ago. Before that I tried to eat well but don’t think I knew what I was doing. I always make a giant glass of fresh vegetables [juiced] every day. I haven’t had fast food in 15 years. If I’m out to dinner and someone gets dessert, I might have one bite because it satisfies that desire. In general, sugar is the enemy. 
--https://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-5q-maher-20140906-story.html

Maher himself writes the intro to entire book such as written by the dead authors he sneers at for the peanut gallery:
 

The Fountain: A Doctor's Prescription to Make 60 the New 30

Let's try to avoid being so gullible. 

[Fat is a type of crazy]

1 hour ago, BigStar said:

No, that's a silly video for the peanut gallery, the vast majority of whom love to hear any rationalization for continuing the path to obesity. Kinda like throwing peanuts to monkeys, except he's getting paid handsomely to do so. 

It rests on pretending to disprove the (false) assumption that better diet or exercise guarantees longevity. No one's immune to bad luck, effects of previous risky behavior, genetic disorders, or conditions undiagnosed perhaps through willful neglect. Fixx is a textbook example of two of these.

But when not being witlessly cheered on as he makes his way to the bank, what does Maher himself do? Oh, strict diet and exercise. ???? WOT??? Why's that?

I have a trainer I see twice a week for formal weightlifting training, which I think is really important
I also have a stationary bike at home for days that I don’t go to the trainer. I like to sweat every day.

I got my diet in order 10 or 12 years ago. Before that I tried to eat well but don’t think I knew what I was doing. I always make a giant glass of fresh vegetables [juiced] every day. I haven’t had fast food in 15 years. If I’m out to dinner and someone gets dessert, I might have one bite because it satisfies that desire. In general, sugar is the enemy. 
--https://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-5q-maher-20140906-story.html

Maher himself writes the intro to entire book such as written by the dead authors he sneers at for the peanut gallery:
 

The Fountain: A Doctor's Prescription to Make 60 the New 30

Let's try to avoid being so gullible. 

I like your posts because you go there. But sometimes I think you miss some subtleties in the argument. You seem to be saying that he is making fun of recommendations for a healthy lifestyle but then secretly having a healthy lifestyle. That's just not correct.

I pointed out in my post that he has constantly advocated a healthy diet as an important part of being prepared for covid.  In general he often discusses the importance of a healthy diet and lifestyle. 

In the video many of the books referenced are what I would call fad or fashionable diets or exercise - big selling books that don't necessarily show simple easy to follow healthy diets.

He is making the point that these books that were huge sellers are not necessarily the panacea needed. It is a comment on the fad not the benefits of a healthy lifestyle. 

Having said that there is an inference in the video that slavishly following a particular diet and exercise regime may not be all that - and that having a relaxed life and  lifestyle without thinking too much can have its own benefits. 

 

[BigStar]

4 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

In the video many of the books referenced are what I would call fad or fashionable diets or exercise - big selling books that don't necessarily show simple easy to follow healthy diets.

They’re all pretty simple when boiled down to their basics.. Following any one of them to some extent would likely help the average member of Maher’s audience, Pritikin’s probably least.

It’s surprising how much the work of these authors--doesn't have to be ALL--continues to resonate today in various ways and is no longer considered “fad.” People often call something “fad” when they themselves just haven’t heard of it, don’t understand it, and don’t like it.

What's more outlandish than any claims by these authors/researchers are the "official" diets that have been recommended by The Authorities that've fueled the obesity epidemic. Death by Food Pyramid: How Shoddy Science, Sketchy Politics and Shady Special Interests Have Ruined Our Health is a start. Was reading something the other day about the convenient underpinnings of the Mediterranean diet. Laughable. Maher should work on that.  

4 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

He is making the point that these books that were huge sellers are not necessarily the panacea needed. It is a comment on the fad not the benefits of a healthy lifestyle. 

No, Clive McCay didn’t write any “huge seller” or indeed any “seller.” Lying and distorting, as Maher not unexpectedly would, doesn’t make the point you imagine. Euell Gibbons DIDN’T swear he’d “live forever” owing to his or any other diet. Utter BS. “Gibbons was simply an advocate of nutritious but neglected plants.” --Wikipedia

All of them but one died of cancer (Pritikin committed suicide after diagnosed with leukemia) or a congenital defect. McCay’s autopsy isn’t available.

And David Crosby? Didn’t get cancer(!) and, to control his diabetes after all most dying of it, now follows a diet that surely reflects some of ideas in the authors/researcher Maher is distorting and trying making money off of. He’s probably learned to avoid starchy foods just as Adelle Davis recommended. Or if not he’d be better off if he did. I’ve known of diabetics who’d plan to eat a big bowl of ice cream and shoot themselves up with the estimated amount of insulin beforehand to keep themselves alive. Insane, but that’s addiction for you.

There are some great fad diets Maher could make fun of but then he’d have laugh at some of the crazy people following them. That might not be PC. If he's got some actual useful information, I'm happy to listen, knowing he might just be lying.  
 

[Fat is a type of crazy]

8 hours ago, BigStar said:

They’re all pretty simple when boiled down to their basics.. Following any one of them to some extent would likely help the average member of Maher’s audience, Pritikin’s probably least.

It’s surprising how much the work of these authors--doesn't have to be ALL--continues to resonate today in various ways and is no longer considered “fad.” People often call something “fad” when they themselves just haven’t heard of it, don’t understand it, and don’t like it.

What's more outlandish than any claims by these authors/researchers are the "official" diets that have been recommended by The Authorities that've fueled the obesity epidemic. Death by Food Pyramid: How Shoddy Science, Sketchy Politics and Shady Special Interests Have Ruined Our Health is a start. Was reading something the other day about the convenient underpinnings of the Mediterranean diet. Laughable. Maher should work on that.  

No, Clive McCay didn’t write any “huge seller” or indeed any “seller.” Lying and distorting, as Maher not unexpectedly would, doesn’t make the point you imagine. Euell Gibbons DIDN’T swear he’d “live forever” owing to his or any other diet. Utter BS. “Gibbons was simply an advocate of nutritious but neglected plants.” --Wikipedia

All of them but one died of cancer (Pritikin committed suicide after diagnosed with leukemia) or a congenital defect. McCay’s autopsy isn’t available.

And David Crosby? Didn’t get cancer(!) and, to control his diabetes after all most dying of it, now follows a diet that surely reflects some of ideas in the authors/researcher Maher is distorting and trying making money off of. He’s probably learned to avoid starchy foods just as Adelle Davis recommended. Or if not he’d be better off if he did. I’ve known of diabetics who’d plan to eat a big bowl of ice cream and shoot themselves up with the estimated amount of insulin beforehand to keep themselves alive. Insane, but that’s addiction for you.

There are some great fad diets Maher could make fun of but then he’d have laugh at some of the crazy people following them. That might not be PC. If he's got some actual useful information, I'm happy to listen, knowing he might just be lying.  
 

Fair point. I did say 'many' not 'all' were a particular thing e.g. best sellers. So you have been a bit selective in your response.

A number of these authors did have good ideas but they were at times taken to task for going beyond what scientific research showed and into speculative findings. In that sense, a number of the diets have been described as fads, and criticism of some of the authors could be seen as fair game . One author did claim he'd live to 100.

Having said that, it could be seen as a  a cheap shot to criticise or make fun of  a number of the authors, who's basic message of good nutrition is a significantly better message than 'you'll probably die in any case'.   A number of the authors did do some good stuff to be fair.

I don't agree with your claim that Bill Maher would hesitate to go against more extreme diets. I don't think you know his work. He has made a career not only going against religion and the right, but he is particularly critical of the left and PC and twitter and cancel culture. He is constantly critical of democrats particularly in his state of California. His show in the 1990's was called Politically Incorrect and in recent weeks, though his politics are left of centre,  he's gone after a number of what he considers left indulgences and he often makes fun of his own audience.

Comedians have been known to  cut corners in relation to the subtleties of an argument to make a bigger point. He is probably guilty of that in this case. Now where's my chocolate.

[BigStar]

On 3/8/2021 at 5:16 AM, sirineou said:

Same with exercise, if you just do mindless exercises,  how long will you keep it up. We all have all the exercise equipment that are collecting dust.

If you just do mindless teeth-brushing, how long will you keep it up? We all have all the toothbrushes that are just collecting dust. 

I find listening to music (at the gym) or watching a video (at home) makes exercise less tedious. 

 

[BigStar]

On 3/7/2021 at 9:45 PM, Bill Poster said:

Just to night I had my evening meal but after I felt the urge to eat some thing sweet . A bowl of sliced banana with Birds custard .  As soon as I had finished the sweet and took the now empty bowl to the kitchen sink a strange feeling came over me , a feeling like I had some how let my self down. ????

It appears you didn’t delve further into the reason for your feeling you’d let yourself down. Perhaps to do so might call into question the happy thought of Throwing caution to the wind and b u g g e r the diet. It probably had something to do with knowing you’d ingested yet more useless sugar calories. After all, you have high cholesterol and are overweight. I’ve suggested you give us all the numbers (oh—include the meds you’re taking, and your waist-to-height ratio) but so far you been rather shy about those. 

Best to dig a bit deeper, however. The real question is this: why, after a meal that undoubtedly already contained excess carbs—bread? potatoes? rice? Yorkshire pudding?—did you still feel the urge to eat some thing sweet? And it needed to be very sweet, mostly sugar: Birds custard.

 If I were you, I’d be wondering about my insulin resistance. Yeah, that's just me, but it is a legit question.

Symptoms of Insulin Resistance: Do You Crave Sweets or Starches?

Has all that sugar in the past helped cause your high cholesterol?

High-Sugar Diet Linked to Cholesterol

Some poster here asserted that being more than 70 confers on him some sort of immunity that favors the Throwing caution to the wind and b u g g e r the diet principle. Alas, no. Turns out that past behavior increases your risk:

Middle-aged and older adults are still at the highest risk for developing type 2 diabetes.

Around 25 percent of those 65 and older have diabetes, the CDC says, meaning about 12 million seniors have the condition.

This is due to lifelong eating and lifestyle habits that contribute to diabetes’ development. So yes, seniors are at a greater risk for developing diabetes.

Simply put, elderly people have been exposed to sugar longer than other generations of people, so their chances of developing hyperglycemia—”abnormally high” blood glucose levels— and, ultimately, type 2 diabetes is greater. 
     --https://aging.com/seniors-and-diabetes-a-complete-guide/

Unfortunately, 

Diabetes is often missed in the elderly. According to the World Health Organisation, someone may have diabetes if they have:

    an HbA1c of 48mmol/l (6.5%) or above is a diagnostic of diabetes in most situations (2 tests)
    a fasting blood glucose of 7 mmol/L or more, OR
    a blood glucose 11.1 mmol/L or more after a 2-hour oral glucose tolerance test. (GTT)

You probably have had no tests but the fasting blood glucose, if that. If I were you, I’d get the others ASAP. Peter Attia routinely gives them to his patients, and repeated over time as well. 

Why is it often missed in the elderly?

Diagnosis of diabetes in older people is often missed or delayed because the presenting symptoms many times are nonspecific, e.g. weight loss, tiredness, falls, confusion, dizziness, nocturia, or urinary tract infection.
     --https://www.gmjournal.co.uk/the-challenge-of-managing-type-1-diabetes-in-the-older-patient

And note you had “nausea” recently for some as yet undiscovered reason, serious enough to mention it to a doc. Huh?

Part of the problem, though, is that type 2 diabetes has a lengthy asymptomatic phase and so may go undetected for a decade or longer anyway. But detect it early and your ten-year survival rate increases by 10%.

The value of early detection of type 2 diabetes

But that’s just surviving. Surviving in what condition is another question. There's lifespan, which you consider, but then there's healthspan, which you carefully ignore. Read up on morbidity compression.

Even if partly dismembered, however (recalling a particular bar & resto owner [RIP] I once knew), one may, at least for a time, tuck into his fried chicken, fries, and strawberry milkshake while congratulating himself for Throwing caution to the wind and b u g g e r the diet.
 

[Walker88]

It bears repeating that one plays the odds by ignoring good health habits. Yes, people who do everything right might still die young, and those who throw caution to the wind may outlive their peers. Both are outliers.

If one wants to maximize one's healthspan, there's now plenty of data to advise how best to do that. Good practices include proper diet with minimal sugar and only moderate carbs, explosive exercise like weight lifting and sprints, good sleep habits, and minimizing stress. Also don't smoke. It's a good idea for folks to monitor their blood glucose, especially the longer term levels, which is measured by the HbA1c score (which is a measure of how much glucose one's blood carries, and it doesn't vary because of a single meal, as FBG does). HbA1c levels are fairly steady over a multi-month period, so are indicative of where one sits on the Diabetes Type II spectrum.

(Having never been a smoker, that is one addiction that baffles me: one needs to overcome initial nausea in order to acquire an addiction that may kill.)

Virtually all of the self-generated bad health outcomes are a result, to varying extent, of one's position on the Diabetes Type II spectrum (save for smoking). It impacts cardiac and vascular health, impacts one's propensity for cancer (along with environmental and genetic factors), and neurological/brain functioning. As initial research has also indicated, it impacts one's response to Covid, with obese people and those suffering from D T II more likely to have severe forms.

Besides the health implications, it simply cannot be any fun to tote around an extra 10, 20, 30 kgs.  On the other hand, it is satisfying to be able to play sports into middle age or later, to be able to run up the steps at a BTS station without getting the least bit winded, or not have to continuously update a wardrobe because things no longer fit. I cannot imagine how some folks I see can sleep at night with a big belly in the way, similar to a 9 month pregnant woman. I also wonder if folks didn't notice the big belly happening, as no one went to be one night at a svelte 80 kg and woke up the next day at 120 kg. it requires a conscience effort to not make an effort, or else simply to not care.

It's hardly much of a sacrifice to avoid, at least most of the time, foods that are not beneficial and rather are harmful. After a time, one doesn't miss them, which almost suggests some sugary foods are an addiction. One can come to crave a nice leafy green salad with an olive oil/vinegar dressing with the same passion someone else might crave a blueberry cheesecake or chocolate chip ice cream.

Before someone starts playing whataboutism and brings up early die-ers like Jim Fixx, there is increasing evidence that the graph of exercise vs mortality is a J or U-curve, with a sweet spot to benefits that falls short of ultramarathoners or those who do excess cardio. The reasons are not known, but it is believed to be some combination of insufficient opportunity for autophagy and an excessive build-up of free radicals that the body cannot clear, which damage cells ability to reproduce accurately. Of course Fixx could have had a genetic defect, like basketball player Reggie Lewis.

There are a few ways to 'cheat', one's way to a longer healthspan, too, such as using supplements of molecules one's body loses the ability to produce in sufficient quantities as one ages, as well as drugs that have beyond label uses (such as Metformin, a D T II medicine available OTC in Thailand and really cheap that not only helps lower blood glucose, but also appears to have anti-cancer properties).

Bottom line is we all make choices that can affect our healthspan and lifespan. If avoiding sweaty mornings in the gym and digging in to that cheesecake or ice cream give one more pleasure than the thought of getting an extra few years of healthy life (on average), go for it.

[1FinickyOne]

On 3/6/2021 at 10:37 AM, BritManToo said:

Do walk 8+Km every day

my aunt started walking 8 kms a day when she turned 60... she's 70 now and we don't know where she is...

[BigStar]

18 hours ago, Walker88 said:

Of course Fixx could have had a genetic defect, like basketball player Reggie Lewis.

So he did. His running probably enabled him to live, and live fit, enjoying a sport, years longer than he might have otherwise. Unfortunately, partly from listening to newly-minted running spiritual advisors, he insisted on continuing to bu g g e r the diet. 

Fixx was a pack-a-day overweight smoker who ate cheeseburgers until he started running at age 35, and his father had a heart attack at age 35 and died of another one at 43. At the time of his death, Fixx was still eating cheeseburgers and had atherosclerosis, with a number of blocked coronary arteries. . . .

--https://run-fit.com/bloodclotsjimfixxandoutrunningyourgenes/

According to his autopsy he had had at least three heart attacks in the weeks before the one that killed him. So he must have known of his worsening heart condition but preferred to stay in denial and ignore it until too late, as some of our posters would certainly applaud on the Ignorance Is Bliss principle (which we of course constantly disparage in Thais). Ironically he’d had a stress test scheduled for the week after he died. 

How did his diet contribute to his arteriosclerosis and eventual heart attack?

Two of the Four Horseman of the Medical Apocalypse know each other quite well: coronary artery disease and diabetes. 

. . . Jim Fixx was probably an out-of-control diabetic. . . . 

A high rise in blood sugar after meals causes high insulin levels that punch holes in your arteries to cause plaques to form in arteries (Clin Chem, 2018;64:192–200), and heart attacks are caused by plaques breaking off from arteries.

Exercise does not prevent plaques from forming, but it can stabilize plaques so that they are far less likely to break off to cause a heart attack (Circulation, April 27, 2017;136:138-148; May 2, 2017;136:126-137).   Plaques start to form when blood levels of the bad LDL cholesterol exceed 50 mg/dl (J of the Am Coll of Cardiol, Dec 19, 2017;70:2979-2991) and almost all North Americans have blood levels higher than that.  

You can tell if you have stable plaques that are not likely to break off to cause a heart attack by getting a CT scan of your arteries (American Journal of Roentgenology, March 2015;204(3):W249-W260).  If you have unstable plaques, you are at high risk for a heart attack.

It always amuses me when posters naively assert their heart health (in face of other risk factors) on the basis on an EKG.???? Better get the scan, man. It’s included in one of the better health packages at Phyathai, on promotion towards the end of the year.

Another great running guru, George Sheehan, knew that quite well as a physician and cardiologist. So he easily defeated the Two, lived to 74, and continued to enjoy his sport 2 decades longer than Fixx until prostate cancer got him. He may have envied Fixx’s death on the road: 

And I have seen death symbolically in a marathon and know certainly that is the way I must end: finally coming to a stop and falling apart like the wonderful one-horse shay.
    --George Sheehan, Running and Being

Yet early deaths from one or more of the preventable major degenerative diseases often negatively affect more than the epicurean himself. Aside from raising health costs for all, this is part of the issue with

18 hours ago, Walker88 said:

If avoiding sweaty mornings in the gym and digging in to that cheesecake or ice cream give one more pleasure than the thought of getting an extra few years of healthy life (on average), go for it.

Family, friends, relatives come to mind. I know a fat old grandad now "going for it" and hobbling on a cane owing to obesity. He's probably going to be sorely missed in a year or two. A firm believer in Ignorance Is Bliss, BTW. In a high profile case like Fixx’s, the ignorant love to seize upon it to further their own self-denials and rationalization. Self-aggrandizing comedians like Maher can then exploit such ignorance by spouting more of what they want to hear. 

In that context Fixx's name comes up now and again on the forum. So this post can serve as reference. 

 

[Fat is a type of crazy]

3 hours ago, BigStar said:

 

Family, friends, relatives come to mind. I know a fat old grandad now "going for it" and hobbling on a cane owing to obesity. He's probably going to be sorely missed in a year or two. A firm believer in Ignorance Is Bliss, BTW. In a high profile case like Fixx’s, the ignorant love to seize upon it to further their own self-denials and rationalization. Self-aggrandizing comedians like Maher can then exploit such ignorance by spouting more of what they want to hear. 

In that context Fixx's name comes up now and again on the forum. So this post can serve as reference. 

 

You and Walker88 have some interesting posts with food for thought. But I feel there is a touch of absolutism in them.

For most people you don't have to choose between Ice cream and a few extra years - if you are obese with health issues related to it maybe so. 

Walker 88 seems to have gotten to the point that missing out on sugars is not a discipline because he does not miss them. For most people this is very difficult and does have a significant impact on enjoyment of life. I like a salad but I rarely crave them. I don't want to be that cyclist described in previous posts sitting eating his boring salad all the time. It seems like a serious and grim life to think too much about what you eat. 

Being seriously obese is objectively a poor decision but there is a big middle ground where a combination of discipline and allowing yourself to have indulgences and enjoy life shouldn't affect your current life or shorten your life.

There is some irony that you take  Bill Maher to task for making generalisations to make a bigger point -you seem to generalise about him being self aggrandising and spouting ignorance based on one short video. If you knew his work, as I said, you would know that it is not common for him to be criticised for having an opinion just to be a crowd pleaser. 

You fairly point out that the  video has it's faults. I  think it is fair to point out that being serious about diet or fitness to the degree of searching out wild plants to eat, or cutting your eating significantly to the point you are hungry all the time, or in general making it the centre of your life, and then making claims about those lifestyles not totally backed by science, may not lead to a long life and may in fact lead to a serious and boring life. 

There are no doubt merits in the approaches of those cited but I think it is reasonable to consider the shortcomings of living life with a continued focus on health and longevity and not on being fulfilled and satisfied and happy.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/12/2021 at 8:29 PM, BigStar said:

Which is, after all, meaningless and misleading. 

Well, no, one can be sedentary yet still maintain normal weight with good numbers across the board. We have far too much misplaced faith in exercise as means of losing weight around here. It may even make you gain weight, as you "work up an appetite."

But you've conveniently ignored the possible reasons for the gout, likely the ill effect of the diet you claimed caused no ill effects, now AT THE TIME.. E.g., Gout, Glucose Metabolism and Obesity: A Case Review So I don't think you've at all helped the OP's case for Throwing caution to the wind and b u g g e r the diet. On the contrary. ????

It would be a wise decision to not diagnose any other poster on this forum, when you actually know nothing about them.

I'm sure there is something in the rules about making personal comments about other posters.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/13/2021 at 6:12 PM, BigStar said:

Part of the problem, though, is that type 2 diabetes has a lengthy asymptomatic phase and so may go undetected for a decade or longer anyway. But detect it early and your ten-year survival rate increases by 10%.

Why should one abstain from enjoyable food just to live longer in some hell hole rest home, where one can be ignored by the overworked and underpaid staff, and parked in front of day time tv to be driven crazy ( at least if one is crazy one isn't going to be horrified at what their life has become ).

 

No need to bring up the side effects of diabetes, as I'm well aware of them.

[thaibeachlovers]

18 hours ago, BigStar said:

Another great running guru, George Sheehan, knew that quite well as a physician and cardiologist. So he easily defeated the Two, lived to 74, and continued to enjoy his sport 2 decades longer than Fixx until prostate cancer got him. He may have envied Fixx’s death on the road: 

Plenty of people live that long and do nothing to eat well or keep fit. My father never did exercise beyond walking and lived till his 90s, though given his mental state at the end it would have been a mercy for him to die 5 years earlier.

[BigStar]

On 3/14/2021 at 3:23 PM, Fat is a type of crazy said:

You and Walker88 have some interesting posts with food for thought. But I feel there is a touch of absolutism in them.

Part of what makes your posts so much fun, even if they’re merely languid solipsistic opinions, is there is a touch of absolutism in them, as will be clear. It’ll take several posts for me to fully enjoy them. Fortunately they reflect the main narrative of our B g g e r The Dieters quite well.

The topic, BTW, is an absolutist topic. You either b u g g e r the diet or you don’t. OP so far refuses confirm his decision to b u g g e r.
 

On 3/14/2021 at 3:23 PM, Fat is a type of crazy said:

For most people you don't have to choose between Ice cream and a few extra years - if you are obese with health issues related to it maybe so. 

Obese people vs the non-obese, good start at eschewing absolutism. Note that you merely follow the OP in ignoring healthspan, the main purpose of exercise and dieting for health, though it’s been called to your attention. So begins the narrative of the specious argument so often repeated here.

We need the straw man lifespan claim so that we can then falsely assert that a longer lifespan must only mean “a few” extra miserable years in the bedsit at the end. That amusingly disingenuous claim is in turn used to rationalize the happiness of eating oneself into an early grave, while we pretend the bedsits aren’t mostly full of suffering B u g g e r The Dieters whose misery began long before they checked in owing to CVD and related illnesses. Since they check in early, they may well spend many more years in the bedsit than if they had managed to postpone it.

So, in reality, fewer years, preceded by many more years of relatively good health, is far better than portrayed. You haven’t made your case for the ice cream.

But what about those who aren’t fictional “most” of the non-obese people? Shouldn’t one first determine whether he is in fact one of them, before he’s created conditions leading to heart disease? Determine how? At what age can one be assured one is normal and can b u g g e r the diet and likely himself? Where did a “few” years come from?

Suppose you would've had a heart attack and died at age 47 like Jim Fixx. But diet & fitness enabled you to avoid his problem and so live to 74 like George Sheehan, enjoying fitness and mental acuity to the end with no years in a bedsit. Most people would probably agree 27 years is a lot more than a few. Whoops.

"Most" are in fact at risk: 

MetS [metabolic syndrome] is a risk factor for mortality among normal-weight and obese adults. In our study, normal-weight adults with MetS had the highest mortality among the 6 groups studied, suggesting that interventions should also focus on MetS patients with normal weight.

    --The Influence of Metabolic Syndrome in Predicting Mortality Risk Among US Adults: Importance of Metabolic Syndrome Even in Adults With Normal Weight

WOT? Normal people. 

And it turns out that half of all cardiovascular events in men and one-third in women take place in young people (i.e., those 64 or younger). WOT?

And JAMA recently came out with this:

The odds for the presence of coronary atherosclerosis attributable to non–HDL-C begins early in life, and greater awareness of the importance of elevated non–HDL-C in adolescence is needed.
     --Association of Non–High-Density Lipoprotein Cholesterol Measured in Adolescence, Young Adulthood, and Mid-Adulthood With Coronary Artery Calcification Measured in Mid-Adulthood

WOT? Every adolescent. 

Why wait until you have a chronic disease to discover that you’re in fact NOT going to enjoy the immunity you imagine conferred upon the (undefined) "most?" 
Is the OP, overweight with high cholesterol (all he’s admitted so far) with a sugar craving and mysterious nausea one of the normal people? How did you determine that?

To be continued . . . .

[BigStar]

On 3/14/2021 at 3:23 PM, Fat is a type of crazy said:

Walker 88 seems to have gotten to the point that missing out on sugars is not a discipline because he does not miss them. For most people this is very difficult and does have a significant impact on enjoyment of life. I like a salad but I rarely crave them. I don't want to be that cyclist described in previous posts sitting eating his boring salad all the time. It seems like a serious and grim life to think too much about what you eat. 

A fundamental question is WHY is that so difficult now that 73% in the USA are overweight and obese, with 60% on track for obesity by 2025? No wonder governments are starting pass laws restricting access to sugar.

In fact, however, people can, like Walker88, learn to make it less difficult so that it has no impact on enjoyment of life and in fact may make life much more enjoyable: e.g., by staying free of meds, stopping the need to chase after docs, not having to carry around excess weight, preventing needless years of chronic degenerative disease and pain, and always feeling well enough to cope easily with everyday physical challenges. It actually takes little discipline if your insulin regulation is under control, because (mostly) it determines hunger.

On 3/14/2021 at 3:23 PM, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I like a salad but I rarely crave them. I don't want to be that cyclist described in previous posts sitting eating his boring salad all the time. It seems like a serious and grim life to think too much about what you eat. 

Selective perception—so amazing, eh. When I look at a resto menu, I typically find many more items on it than just salad and ice cream. In fact I have absolutely no problem in general finding a variety of tasty food that won’t cause an insulin spike. For example,

44 Healthy Low-Carb Foods That Taste Incredible
What Can You Eat on a Low Carb Diet?

Please stop lying about how there’s nothing healthy to eat but salad in order to justify sugar addiction. I think the OP just made up that story up anyway.

It seems like a serious and grim life to think too much about what you eat.

“Too much” along with imagined “worry” is another usual little self-serving rationalization.

In fact, much more thinking is required for you to decide what to select from the vast variety of different junk foods and ice cream. And the amount of time required to select from a book full of standard fattening, sugary recipes is the same as to select from a healthy diet book. I don’t need to think about it, actually.

Finally, unlike the healthy & fit, the B u g g e r The Dieter has to spend an inordinate amount of time in hospital waiting rooms, talking to docs, considering courses of treatment, visiting pharmacies, and waiting to recover from illness. No stress (just to mention on example)? No comparison really as to which lifestyle is actually less grim and takes up less maintenance time.

I can understand, however, that you seem to find thinking rather burdensome, though surprisingly many others do enjoy it, myself included. BTW, I suggested to the OP that he manage to think about getting a glucose tolerance test. 
 

[BigStar]

On 3/14/2021 at 3:23 PM, Fat is a type of crazy said:

Being seriously obese is objectively a poor decision but there is a big middle ground where a combination of discipline and allowing yourself to have indulgences and enjoy life shouldn't affect your current life or shorten your life.

This isn’t the OP’s position: he postulated no middle ground. No "restrictions." B u g g e r i n g means B u g g e r i n g. 

But tell me about “non-seriously” obese. And “shouldn’t” doesn’t mean “won’t,” now does it. Further, how is one to know that he’s in the middle ground and is assured of staying there with no fear of metabolic syndrome or asymptomatic diabetes later to become full blown? When and how is that determined? And how is one to know which indulgences, how many, and how often? 

Sounds like a lot of (cough) thinking to me. Let’s have all the numbers, not just more hot air.

 I’m not taking your word for it, thanks. We see just how well your theory of discipline (LOL) is working out in the real world.

Note you’ve defined indulgences as only those implicated in causing metabolic syndrome. What if there were a way not to need to allow them and not to miss them in the slightest? What if there were other, healthier indulgences just as satisfying? Obviously, that would be much better. It is of course possible, and there are, but then you wouldn’t have an “argument.”

Many if not most of the overweight and esp. the obese are suffering from addiction. You might as well tell a heroin addict that allowing himself to indulge in a quick fix sometimes won’t affect his current life or shorten his life. 
 

[BigStar]

On 3/14/2021 at 3:23 PM, Fat is a type of crazy said:

There is some irony that you take  Bill Maher to task for making generalisations to make a bigger point -you seem to generalise about him being self aggrandising and spouting ignorance based on one short video. If you knew his work, as I said, you would know that it is not common for him to be criticised for having an opinion just to be a crowd pleaser. 

Not in the least ironic because, on the contrary, it’s merely your own concern to defend Maher in general. In that video, which is 

• all we have of Maher here, 
• all that many may ever see of him on this topic, 
• and all that I’m addressing, 

he is indeed self-aggrandizing, spouting ignorance, misleading, distorting, and outright lying to play to the peanut gallery. 
 

On 3/14/2021 at 3:23 PM, Fat is a type of crazy said:

You fairly point out that the  video has it's faults. I  think it is fair to point out that being serious about diet or fitness to the degree of searching out wild plants to eat, or cutting your eating significantly to the point you are hungry all the time, or in general making it the centre of your life, and then making claims about those lifestyles not totally backed by science, may not lead to a long life and may in fact lead to a serious and boring life. 

And so, conveniently, you’re the perfect illustration of Maher’s pernicious effect. 
The clueless in the peanut gallery believe him, use him as an excuse, and then go around parroting and embellishing his comedic nonsense. For example (to choose one), as noted, Euell Gibbons did NOT make any claim that wild plants would enable him live forever. But, furthermore, seriousness about diet and fitness, of all things, had nothing whatsoever to do with his publishing his modest guides about the edibility of wild plants for an audience of nature lovers, hikers, sportsmen, and hobbyists. Nothing. Totally ignorant embellishment of Maher’s nonsense on your part.

And so come the usual exaggerated straw man arguments as further embellishments to Maher’s little jokes.

No one said anything about being hungry all the time or about making diet and fitness the center of anyone’s life or about the desirability of unscientific claims (generally speaking; sometimes politics has determined the “science”). Nor—again--did anyone say that any diet or fitness regime will guarantee a long life; try to get that Maher nonsense out of your head. That vid’s downright toxic.

Note you’ve again ignored the idea of healthspan. 

Where’s the evidence that those who lead healthy lifestyles necessarily lead more “serious” (whatever that means, and so what) or boring lives than those who don’t? In fact, there’s probably more evidence to the contrary that the lives of overweight couch potatoes are by far the more boring. Our outstanding example here that of "assembled beer bellies , expanded waistlines and red faces" sitting at a beer bar. That’s excitement?