Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[cmsally]

On 12/12/2018 at 2:44 AM, CanadianGirl2 said:

 

It's a closed group, not secret, so anybody can search for us on Facebook and request to join.

 

The announcement in the Gazette on December 6th was only for Section 9 applicants, so yes, all 53 are foreign women. 

 

By Country of Origin: Laos - 15; Cambodia - 7; China - 7; Taiwan - 6; Myanmar - 5; India - 4; Vietnam - 3; Stateless - 2; Australia - 1; Philippines - 1; Singapore - 1; United States - 1

 

By Province: Bangkok - 45; Sa Kaeo - 5; Nonthaburi - 1; Phitsanulok - 1; Prachinburi - 1
 

CanadianGirl2 - what is the name of the Facebook group?

My paperwork is at the MOI since last May (2018)

[Arkady]

On 12/15/2018 at 9:52 AM, GabbaGabbaHey said:

As mentioned above, this announcement was only for foreign women having Thai husband, and they have a much easier route in the way no occupation nor income is required by the applicant - which must explain. As for male applicants, everyone has read in this forum advice given to rather register on a tabian baan in Bangkok and drive the application through SB (with perhaps the exception of Phuket and a couple of other cities).

 

 

Historically the address profile of foreign wives under Section 9 in the announcements was about the same as naturalization announcements, I.e. overwhelmingly in Bangkok with an occasional sprinkling of names from tourist provinces like Phuket and Chonburi. However, there was a case of a foreign wife living in Samui several years ago, who had to move her TB to Bkk because Surat SB flatly refused to process her application.

 

Somehow things changed in the announcement of of a huge backlog of wives soon after the 2014 coup. That announcement included a significant number of addresses in minor provinces as well as a significant number of Indochinese and Burmese nationalities that had hardly ever appeared on the lists before. 

 

One can only guess that some minor provincial SBs were accepting applications from wives but they were not getting anywhere before the coup because substantial bribes were being denanded at the provincial level that applicants could not afford.

 

It must be a bit easier for SB to process wives’ applications because most of the vetting is applied to the Thai husbands and the hurdles are very low. In view of all of this, it certainly seems worthwhile for wives living in the provinces to try to apply where they are before considering a move to a Bkk TB. We should also be mindful that whatever it was that created the huge backlog of wives in the provinces might re-emerge after elections.

[Neeranam]

On 12/14/2018 at 7:18 PM, sanchobkk said:

So there are some provincial people who could manage to do it from there..

I thought (i've been told by bth thai visa member and police officer that I met) that we could be able to do it only in bkk.

I heard in other province they wouldn't have to qualified people in order to make it properly.

I'm curious to know how does it take, same time as from bkk ?

There are special branch police in every province. I went this route but soon realised that the officer was making things difficult, unless making it worth his while. I moved my Tabien Baan to Bangkok.

[cmsally]

Last year when I put my paperwork through, the special branch officer came up from BKK to do the interview (he came to our house).

Everything I had to do or person to see was in CM, it all seemed relatively easy.

Now the paperwork is in BKK MOI and has been since May this year. I gather batches are now going through but still not sure which batch I am in.

[THAIJAMES]

1 hour ago, cmsally said:

Last year when I put my paperwork through, the special branch officer came up from BKK to do the interview (he came to our house).

Everything I had to do or person to see was in CM, it all seemed relatively easy.

Now the paperwork is in BKK MOI and has been since May this year. I gather batches are now going through but still not sure which batch I am in.

That's good news that applicants from Chiangmai are being taken seriously.

[GabbaGabbaHey]

Did anyone hear if MOI conducted any interview this month?

[Neeranam]

3 hours ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

Did anyone hear if MOI conducted any interview this month?

Not heard anything. There's always next year. I'm actually guessing around March, which would be 1 year after the allocation going to the MOI.

[cmsally]

I heard that applications of foreign wives are going through by the batch and being signed off until the end of the year. How many that will be I have no idea.

It would be nothing short of a miracle if that included me, as from the absolute start of when applied it has only been 18 months.

[Neeranam]

3 hours ago, VIBE said:

Hi,  I got informed that my interview in Chiangmai is on the 20th.  Does anyone know what documents I need to bring?  The office letter did not say, and the officer just said bring everything.  By that I am assuming passport, house registration, ID card, drivers licence, work permit, marriage cert.  Anything else I should bring?  

 

Also, would wearing a suit be over dressed?

 

Many thanks.

I think a suit is over dressing.

Are you talking about the Social Branch interview or the MOI?

[yankee99]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I think a suit is over dressing.

Are you talking about the Social Branch interview or the MOI?

When i had my big interview upstairs @bkk special branch I wore nice pants, shirt and a tie. I would think that is the minimum 

[cmsally]

10 hours ago, VIBE said:

Hi,  I got informed that my interview in Chiangmai is on the 20th.  Does anyone know what documents I need to bring?  The office letter did not say, and the officer just said bring everything.  By that I am assuming passport, house registration, ID card, drivers licence, work permit, marriage cert.  Anything else I should bring?  

 

Also, would wearing a suit be over dressed?

 

Many thanks.

Depends which interview you are talking about. Interview at "Sala Klang" I took all my paperwork but ended up needing nothing, it was completely verbal. Take everything just in case.

[yankee99]

51 minutes ago, VIBE said:

Thanks.  Think its the big one with 20-40 Thais.  I have either jeans with holes in them, or a suit, so better go with the suit.

 

Will bring all my IDs just in case.  Thanks much...

Maybe its different in CM but in bkk the Special Branch interview consists of the points test and meeting the top police officer upstairs and a tie is required. The only other interview that I'm aware of is the moi which would be in bkk

 

 

[aidenai]

Thanks.  Think its the big one with 20-40 Thais.  I have either jeans with holes in them, or a suit, so better go with the suit.
 
Will bring all my IDs just in case.  Thanks much...

That would be interesting news if true. AFAIK, the big MOI interview is only held in Bangkok.

[Neeranam]

22 hours ago, yankee99 said:

Maybe its different in CM but in bkk the Special Branch interview consists of the points test and meeting the top police officer upstairs and a tie is required.

I wrote a nice pair of trousers and shirt. I had a tie with me, but the head officer on the ground floor told me not to bother putting the tie on, so I didn't.

[cmsally]

2 hours ago, VIBE said:

Well, I could be wrong, but was told to bring all my ID and documents, and to know somethings about Thailand.  It could be that because its in CM one meeting needs to be done, then another in BKK.  I have no idea, shall find out tomorrow and post back here.

There is normally some Thai culture questions and specifically religious ones. Good idea to at least pretend to be Buddhist!

I was asked if I could read Thai to which I replied yes and then promptly asked to read signs on the tables, so don't fake that one.

I think I put them off asking questions because I talk so much .

It was an odd atmosphere which you can get when its a bunch of fairly important Thais that don't know each other and therefore not sure how they should interact.

[Arkady]

On 12/19/2018 at 11:40 PM, cmsally said:

There is normally some Thai culture questions and specifically religious ones. Good idea to at least pretend to be Buddhist!

I was asked if I could read Thai to which I replied yes and then promptly asked to read signs on the tables, so don't fake that one.

I think I put them off asking questions because I talk so much .

It was an odd atmosphere which you can get when its a bunch of fairly important Thais that don't know each other and therefore not sure how they should interact.

 

I don’t think you need to pretend to be Buddhist. Bear in mind that the vast majority of applicants are Asians, many of whom have firmly held non-Buddhist religious convictions of their own. They also give a choice of Buddhist, Muslim and Christian versions of the oath. Showing understanding and respect for Thai culture and Buddhism is good enough, if it comes up. 

 

Good advice not to overstate your capabilities with respect to Thai language. One applicant who had just sung the Royal Anthem was asked if understood the lyrics, which, he having answered in the affirmative, was immediately followed by a request to explain the meaning of a couple of the lines. Any foreigner who has ever looked carefully at the rather high flown language of the RA will know this is not an easy task, unless you have dissected it word by word, some of which are not even to be found in the Mary Haas dictionary.

 

Many the officials at the MOI interviews do know each other, as they attend these sessions regularly and over half work at the MOI. The format at my interview was that the chairman, a senior MOI official lead the early part of questioning. Then the head of Nationality Section, whom I had already met, took the lead for next part. Finally the floor appeared to open at the end for representatives from non-MOI agencies to ask questions. I got one from a lady from Immigration. After the meeting she introduced herself and asked some follow up questions for her own interest. I think she had asked something about the Thai economy.

 

Remember that, if you are applying on the basis of a Thai spouse, they are not required to give you a pass or fail on knowledge of Thai language and your spouse is allowed to help you out.

[cmsally]

3 minutes ago, Arkady said:

 

I don’t think you need to pretend to be Buddhist. Bear in mind that the vast majority of applicants are Asians, many of whom have firmly held non-Buddhist religious convictions of their own. They also give a choice of Buddhist, Muslim and Christian versions of the oath. Showing understanding and respect for Thai culture and Buddhism is good enough, if it comes up. 

 

Good advice not to overstate your capabilities with respect to Thai language. One applicant who had just sung the Royal Anthem was asked if understood the lyrics, which, he having answered in the affirmative, was immediately followed by a request to explain the meaning of a couple of the lines. Any foreigner who has ever looked carefully at the rather high flown language of the RA will know this is not an easy task, unless you have dissected it word by word, some of which are not even to be found in the Mary Haas dictionary.

At the very end of my interview, one of the women in the panel who had been quiet from the beginning asked me if I could sing the National Anthem to "finish off".

I had to point out to her that I knew the tune and some of the words but as with most "group sung" songs I would be relying on others for prompting to fill in the blanks. That seemed to prompt mass nodding around the table, so maybe even some of them couldn't remember every word!

[GarryP]

38 minutes ago, cmsally said:

At the very end of my interview, one of the women in the panel who had been quiet from the beginning asked me if I could sing the National Anthem to "finish off".

I had to point out to her that I knew the tune and some of the words but as with most "group sung" songs I would be relying on others for prompting to fill in the blanks. That seemed to prompt mass nodding around the table, so maybe even some of them couldn't remember every word!

That is disconcerting. What would have happened if you had simply said no you couldn't?  Could it have any impact on your application? Not everyone could think of a good reason not to sing it off the cuff. "I did not learn it because it is not a requirement", does not sound good coming from someone applying for Thai citizenship, although that is really the case with many of us.   

[Arkady]

8 hours ago, GarryP said:

That is disconcerting. What would have happened if you had simply said no you couldn't?  Could it have any impact on your application? Not everyone could think of a good reason not to sing it off the cuff. "I did not learn it because it is not a requirement", does not sound good coming from someone applying for Thai citizenship, although that is really the case with many of us.   

 

I think Sally's response was a good one and I agree there are many Thais who could not manage to pass the test singing the NA and RA unaccompanied. However, I doubt it would count against your application, if you were applying on the basis of marriage and said you couldn't sing the NA at all, since it is not required. Same with reading and writing Thai.  I think they may just try to come up with different questions to make it less boring for themselves.  They may also want to see applicants' attitude to Thai culture in their responses.

 

Another curved ball I heard of re singing was a female applicant applying on the basis of PR who was asked to tell the room what feelings the RA invoked in her after she had sung it. The poor thing was already a wreck because she was no  singer and they had made her sing it 3 or 4 times, while her spoken Thai was way short of being able to articulate something so abstract. Anyway what she was feeling was obviously extreme anxiety and exasperation at having to repeat it several times, with no disrespect intended of course.  Nevertheless, I believe she is now a Thai citizen. Having to sing the songs is definitely a worthy challenge which invokes feelings of great relief when you have finished and a sense of really earning your  citizenship that is recommended to all. 

[Neeranam]

On 12/19/2018 at 8:47 PM, VIBE said:

Well, I could be wrong, but was told to bring all my ID and documents, and to know somethings about Thailand.  It could be that because its in CM one meeting needs to be done, then another in BKK.  I have no idea, shall find out tomorrow and post back here.

Sounds more like the interview with the special branch.

[yankee99]

reading the above experience reaffirms my decision to change my yellow book to Bangkok 

Edited December 24, 2018 by yankee99

[cmsally]

4 minutes ago, VIBE said:

Yes, think so.  It was at city hall.  Told it starts at 13:30 so be there one hour before.  Me, wife and my 11 month old showed up at 12 noon.  We sat outside on some not so comfy chairs until 5pm with only a little water.  Me in a suit, sweating balls.  There was over 15 people, all getting called one at a time.  They started late, like after 2pm or something, and the first took 30 mins, then, they realized they need to pick up the pace, and some took as little as 5 mins, others 15min.  When we finally did get called, first thing they asked was for me to sing, caught me off guard.  Ok, I will sing.  After they asked me do I know what it means?  Wanted me to explain the anthem in Thai, which I tried to do for some lines, very poorly.  And from there it all went down hill.  45mins of them asking questions like when was the last time I was at immigration, like that is meaningfull?  Then questions about my engineering degree, so I explained what I used to do for work over seas, and that opened up the pandoras box as they started to question my Thai company and the tax I paid and what not.  Eventually one side of the room that was the police were arguing for us against the other side of bureaucrats.  When asked why I wanted to become Thai, I said to stay with my family, as I held my baby.  My wife explained that when I get my visa every year, it takes 2 months and I need to be back on that exact day to pick it up, and she said I loose out on work overseas because of that.  They somehow turned that to a negative, saying oh I want to be Thai just cause of my visa.  Then saying things like if they approve me then any one can just open up a Thai company and pay tax and become Thai.  Do they not know that paying tax is just ONE of the 18 requirements that I had to fulfill?  And my Thai company actually does business, so its not a shelf company that we had to keep telling them.  Finally, one of the head police said its not their duty do investigate my earnings, but to see if I fulfilled the requirements.  One asked if I have a WP, I passed it to her, and she wanted to know what salary I was getting that I was paying tax on?  100K per month, then she put it down and made a jester to say thats more then enough, which, based on marriage the min is 40K.

 

In the end they approved us, but said will add comments that I need to clarify more about my income.  Crazy.  I just don't fit in their boxes of one person only working for one company.  I have a few different ventures on the go, as do most people, this I don't view as a negative, but they did for some reason.  

 

It was really a horrible experience, and my little girl was good all afternoon then started to act up once in the room.  I and my wife, and my baby were exhausted by the time we got in there, and to be hit with so much negativity and lack of sense really took a lot out of me.  On the drive home I really could not care if I got it or not, I was that broken down.  You do everything they ask for, and its like you get penalized for it.....:(

I presume that was the last interview before paperwork goes down to BKK. With the "singing" part I can only wonder if it was the same crew as last year !!!

Last year there were approx 14 people on the panel. head of panel was younger guy , there were one or two police in uniform but at least one that was in plain clothes as I knew him. There were 3 or 4 women , one to my immediate right who was keen on singing.

From my perspective the atmosphere is weird because you have a group of people who are not sure how they should act together and who is above who etc.

Not much about visas in my interview as I got in an enormous argument with the immigration police officer !  The adjudicator actually had to adjudicate !

 

[cmsally]

For those wanting to see announcements of citizenship. Go to http://www.mratchakitcha.soc.go.th/

press search icon on right hand side of top mid bar (magnifying glass) and put in สัญชาติไทย (top left box) in the page it takes you to.

then fill in dates you want to search and then press bottom left search button . Results should come up.

 

For example - a search of this month takes you to 2 pdf files which list the 2 batches announced this month (all female).

[THAIJAMES]

21 hours ago, yankee99 said:

reading the above experience reaffirms my decision to change my yellow book to Bangkok 

Would that make any difference?  It sounds like the committee flew up from Bangkok?

[yankee99]

40 minutes ago, THAIJAMES said:

Would that make any difference?  It sounds like the committee flew up from Bangkok?

If this is the moi interview then i agree. This is the first I've heard that they travel to different parts of the country to do interviews. 

[cmsally]

In Chiang Mai at the "Salaklang" I had an interview that comprised of various heads/members of various depts. That is the stage where the final OK/nonOK was given before paperwork went off to BKK MOI.

As I understand it (at least for women) it is then the case for the minister to sign off. As far as I know there are no further interviews after that, as once signed off , it is then announced in the Royal Gazette.

Caveat emptor - could be different for men or those applying under different circumstances.

[samran]

1 hour ago, cmsally said:

For those wanting to see announcements of citizenship. Go to http://www.mratchakitcha.soc.go.th/

press search icon on right hand side of top mid bar (magnifying glass) and put in สัญชาติไทย (top left box) in the page it takes you to.

then fill in dates you want to search and then press bottom left search button . Results should come up.

 

For example - a search of this month takes you to 2 pdf files which list the 2 batches announced this month (all female).

Interesting as always to see what is happening.

 

Something I’ve never seen before - in November 10 people requesting renunciation of this nationality.

 

All were Singaporean, Japanese and there was one German, renouncing under section 14, which allows dual national children to renounce their citizenship in a period of one year following their 20th birthday. I know Japan and Singapore were quite strict in not allowing dual nationality, but thought Germany was more liberal. 

[Neeranam]

On 12/24/2018 at 8:35 PM, VIBE said:

Yes, think so.  It was at city hall.  Told it starts at 13:30 so be there one hour before.  Me, wife and my 11 month old showed up at 12 noon.  We sat outside on some not so comfy chairs until 5pm with only a little water.  Me in a suit, sweating balls.  There was over 15 people, all getting called one at a time.  They started late, like after 2pm or something, and the first took 30 mins, then, they realized they need to pick up the pace, and some took as little as 5 mins, others 15min.  When we finally did get called, first thing they asked was for me to sing, caught me off guard.  Ok, I will sing.  After they asked me do I know what it means?  Wanted me to explain the anthem in Thai, which I tried to do for some lines, very poorly.  And from there it all went down hill.  45mins of them asking questions like when was the last time I was at immigration, like that is meaningfull?  Then questions about my engineering degree, so I explained what I used to do for work over seas, and that opened up the pandoras box as they started to question my Thai company and the tax I paid and what not.  Eventually one side of the room that was the police were arguing for us against the other side of bureaucrats.  When asked why I wanted to become Thai, I said to stay with my family, as I held my baby.  My wife explained that when I get my visa every year, it takes 2 months and I need to be back on that exact day to pick it up, and she said I loose out on work overseas because of that.  They somehow turned that to a negative, saying oh I want to be Thai just cause of my visa.  Then saying things like if they approve me then any one can just open up a Thai company and pay tax and become Thai.  Do they not know that paying tax is just ONE of the 18 requirements that I had to fulfill?  And my Thai company actually does business, so its not a shelf company that we had to keep telling them.  Finally, one of the head police said its not their duty do investigate my earnings, but to see if I fulfilled the requirements.  One asked if I have a WP, I passed it to her, and she wanted to know what salary I was getting that I was paying tax on?  100K per month, then she put it down and made a jester to say thats more then enough, which, based on marriage the min is 40K.

 

In the end they approved us, but said will add comments that I need to clarify more about my income.  Crazy.  I just don't fit in their boxes of one person only working for one company.  I have a few different ventures on the go, as do most people, this I don't view as a negative, but they did for some reason.  

 

It was really a horrible experience, and my little girl was good all afternoon then started to act up once in the room.  I and my wife, and my baby were exhausted by the time we got in there, and to be hit with so much negativity and lack of sense really took a lot out of me.  On the drive home I really could not care if I got it or not, I was that broken down.  You do everything they ask for, and its like you get penalized for it.....:(

Actually this is nothing like the SB interview in Bangkok.

Must be the MOI.

[Arkady]

On 12/25/2018 at 7:55 PM, samran said:

Interesting as always to see what is happening.

 

Something I’ve never seen before - in November 10 people requesting renunciation of this nationality.

 

All were Singaporean, Japanese and there was one German, renouncing under section 14, which allows dual national children to renounce their citizenship in a period of one year following their 20th birthday. I know Japan and Singapore were quite strict in not allowing dual nationality, but thought Germany was more liberal. 

Germany is not exactly liberal in this respect. I was born there to non-German parents in the days when most countries gave citizenship to all born there. But not Germany. Germans applying for another nationality need to obtain approval from the German Foreign Ministry to keep their German nationality before they apply or it will be revoked, if they are found out. They need to have a good reason, e.g. need to own land or company, and need to prove they retain lasting ties with Germany. I am not sure what the rules are for half Germans. I know a German with a Singaporean wife and half half children who have managed to conceal their German nationalities from Singapore and vice versa but it sounds like a walking a tight rope, as they might lose either or both one day.

[Arkady]

On 12/24/2018 at 8:35 PM, VIBE said:

Yes, think so.  It was at city hall.  Told it starts at 13:30 so be there one hour before.  Me, wife and my 11 month old showed up at 12 noon.  We sat outside on some not so comfy chairs until 5pm with only a little water.  Me in a suit, sweating balls.  There was over 15 people, all getting called one at a time.  They started late, like after 2pm or something, and the first took 30 mins, then, they realized they need to pick up the pace, and some took as little as 5 mins, others 15min.  When we finally did get called, first thing they asked was for me to sing, caught me off guard.  Ok, I will sing.  After they asked me do I know what it means?  Wanted me to explain the anthem in Thai, which I tried to do for some lines, very poorly.  And from there it all went down hill.  45mins of them asking questions like when was the last time I was at immigration, like that is meaningfull?  Then questions about my engineering degree, so I explained what I used to do for work over seas, and that opened up the pandoras box as they started to question my Thai company and the tax I paid and what not.  Eventually one side of the room that was the police were arguing for us against the other side of bureaucrats.  When asked why I wanted to become Thai, I said to stay with my family, as I held my baby.  My wife explained that when I get my visa every year, it takes 2 months and I need to be back on that exact day to pick it up, and she said I loose out on work overseas because of that.  They somehow turned that to a negative, saying oh I want to be Thai just cause of my visa.  Then saying things like if they approve me then any one can just open up a Thai company and pay tax and become Thai.  Do they not know that paying tax is just ONE of the 18 requirements that I had to fulfill?  And my Thai company actually does business, so its not a shelf company that we had to keep telling them.  Finally, one of the head police said its not their duty do investigate my earnings, but to see if I fulfilled the requirements.  One asked if I have a WP, I passed it to her, and she wanted to know what salary I was getting that I was paying tax on?  100K per month, then she put it down and made a jester to say thats more then enough, which, based on marriage the min is 40K.

 

In the end they approved us, but said will add comments that I need to clarify more about my income.  Crazy.  I just don't fit in their boxes of one person only working for one company.  I have a few different ventures on the go, as do most people, this I don't view as a negative, but they did for some reason.  

 

It was really a horrible experience, and my little girl was good all afternoon then started to act up once in the room.  I and my wife, and my baby were exhausted by the time we got in there, and to be hit with so much negativity and lack of sense really took a lot out of me.  On the drive home I really could not care if I got it or not, I was that broken down.  You do everything they ask for, and its like you get penalized for it.....:(

This sounds a really dreadful experience and nothing like anything that ever happens to those who apply in Bkk. It sounds as they are assembling a group of people from various agencies to screen applications before they go to Bkk.  Perhaps this is because the provincial SBs don't have dedicated departments to do the screening like in Bkk and can't be relied on to do a decent job. But this sounds complete overkill by officials who don't really understand what their role in the process is and prefer to make things up on the fly.

 

Although I was never asked why I wanted to become Thai, this does get asked quite often and they tend be rather picky about the answers. SB in Bkk in the past have advised applicants to say forcefully that they intend to live the rest of their lives in Thailand, feel a great affiliation with the country and its people, and  would like to enjoy all the rights (as well as perform the obligations) of being a Thai citizen as the main reason. They seem to get uppity for some reason when someone implies it is solely for the convenience of not having to get visas and WPs or to be able to own their own business or land, although these are the most obvious benefits.

 

It is a bit of a curved ball but still in the bounds of acceptability to ask someone who has to sing to explain the meaning of what he has just sang.  But asking someone to sing, who by law is not required to sing, and then asking to explain the meaning is taking curved balls to an absurd and seemingly vindictive level.