Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[sabaijai]

The only real improvements over the last decade or two are:

the one-stop service (but now only for directors or heads of dept of large companies only)

And journalists.

[Maestro]

...

1) The new checklist requirement came from the Interior Ministry, but does not reference any new regulations that they are aware of...

So it is a checklist from the Interior Ministry, not a Ministerial Regulation. This explains why nobody can find it in the Government Gazette.

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Maestro

[Arkady]

I called Special Branch and got a similar explanation to the one they gave Clockwork Orange. They are not requiring this declaration from applicants as yet but said they would ask those applying now to provide the declaration later, presumably when ministerial regulations have been drafted. Since it is on the check list, they thought it would eventually have to be submitted by applicants. Interestingly they volunteered the opinion that it would not be possible to actually force people to renounce their original nationality but that the ministry would clearly prefer naturalized Thais to have Thai nationality only. It seems quite unclear what is going on but for those ready to apply it seems worthwhile going ahead while the price is still only 5,000 baht and the declaration is not yet required on application. If things take a turn for the worse and you are asked to do undertake something that makes it no longer interesting to continue, I think you can withdraw the application without prejudice to your PR status.

I have uploaded my own translation of the new guidelines, including the checklist. Apologies for any imperfections. Another point to note, in addition to the small increase of minimal salary to 40,000 for those with Thai family or graduates from Thai universities, point 5 of the guidelines which is new. It seems to be almost a repitition of point 4 but looks like it is intended to withdraw the concession that those with less than 5 years' PR can apply using time on WP prior to getting PR to make up the 5 years' residence required under the Act. This could be bad news for those waiting for years for PR who might want to apply for nationality as soon as they get PR. But as with everything else, the point would need to be checked with Special Branch, in the event that the backlog of PR applications is ever cleared.

For any one planning to apply, I have also discovered that the document from your embassy confirming you have reached the age of majority is not required for most Western nationalities. In addition, the translations of educational qualifications only need to be certified by the translation agency not the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, as is the case for PR applications. This is boon to any one with American credentials because US embassies are not allowed to certify educational credentials and embassy certification is a pre-requisite for the MFA to certify the translation of a document from overseas.

Happy New Year to all aspirant Thais and others in this thread.

Guidelines_for_Application_for_Naturalization_14__Oct_2009_EN.doc

[Arkady]

I am not sure if my translation of the October 2009 guidelines can be downloaded property. So I am posting it here.

Guidelines for Applications for Thai Citizenship by Naturalization

In respect of the processing for consideration of applications for Thai citizenship by naturalization His Excellency the Minister of the Interior on this 14th day of October 2009 gives approval for the setting of qualifications of applicants for naturalization as follows.

1. They should have reached the age of majority according to the laws of Thailand and the laws of the country of their own nationality.

2. They should have a record of good conduct. They must be found to have no criminal record in Thailand after due investigation (finger prints must be taken and checked against records). Their record of political activities must also be investigated and nothing incompatible with good conduct found. They must have no record of involvement with illegal drugs or of any activities deemed harmful to national security. Investigations must also be made to check for any criminal records overseas.

3. They should be able to show evidence of pursuing a profession in Thailand in the form of an affidavit from the Department for Foreigner Workers or from a provincial branch of the Department of Employment. They should have an income not less than the amount specified as follows.

3.1 Applicants with no direct personal ties with Thailand should have an income of not less than 80,000 baht a month supported by a letter of confirmation of monthly salary/income and must show evidence that they have paid tax for not less than 3 years; or they should they should have paid personal income tax of more than 100,000 baht per year for the 3 tax years prior to their application for naturalization

3.2 Applicants with direct personal ties with Thailand, such as those married to a Thai citizen, those with children who are Thai citizens, or those who graduated from an institute of tertiary education in Thailand should have an income of not less than 40,000 baht a month supported by a letter of confirmation of monthly salary/income and must show evidence that they have paid tax for not less than 3 years; or they should they should have paid personal income tax of more than 50,000 baht per year for the 3 tax years prior to their application for naturalization

4. They should have received permission from the Immigration Bureau to remain permanently in the Kingdom of Thailand and be able to show supporting documentation in the form of a Certificate of Residence, an Alien Registration Book, or a House Registration Certificate (Thor Ror 14) that proves incontrovertibly that they have been permanently resident in Thailand for not less than 5 years.

5. They should have been permanently resident in the Kingdom of Thailand for not less than 5 years counted from the date they received their Certificate of Residence, Alien Registration Book or House Registration Certificate (Thor Ror 14) that proves incontrovertibly that they have been permanently resident in Thailand for not less than 5 years.

6. They must have knowledge of the Thai language according to the ministerial regulations. They should be able to speak and understand Thai, sing the national and Royal anthems and must pass an interview in Thai.

6.1 Applicants who reside in Bangkok must pass an interview with the Sub-Committee for Screening Applications for Thai Citizenship through Naturalization.

6.2 Applicants who reside in the provinces must pass an interview with their Provincial Labour Committee, according to the regulation of the Sub-Committee for Screening Applications for Thai Citizenship through Naturalization, Applications for Thai Citizenship based on Marriage to Male Thai Citizen and Applications to Recover Thai Citizenship by Former Thai Citizens dated………………..

7. Applicants should produce a document that they have submitted to their embassy or consulate in Thailand that demonstrates their intention to renounce their existing citizenship when they are approved for Thai citizenship.

8. Applicants must obtain not less than 50 points in the qualifications test listed in Appendix A for their applications to be forwarded for consideration.

Documents Required for Applications for Thai Citizenship by Naturalization

1. Alien registration book (copy of every page with information recorded) – 5 copies.

2. Certificate of residence (copy of every page with information recorded) – 5 copies.

3. Work permit (copy of every page with information recorded) – 2 copies.

4. 12 photographs – 2 x 2 inches – and 3 photographs of spouse (men should wear a suit and tie or praratchatarn, women should dress respectably).

5. House registration certificates of whole family (husband or wife and children, if any) – 5 copies.

6. Marriage certificate (translation required if in a language other than Thai) – 2 copies.

7. Evidence of bank deposits or a certified bank statement (should not be less than Baht 80,000).

8. Evidence of charitable donations (not less than Baht 5,000 and should include donations made some time ago, not just in time for nationality application).

9. Evidence of payment of the applicant’s personal income tax going back 3 years, certified by a Revenue Department official.

10. Evidence of the applicant’s employer, including company registration certificate, nangsue raprong list of shareholders, VAT registration certificate (phor phor 20) & etc. (1 copy of each).

11. Evidence of one year’s corporate income tax payment (Phor Ngor Dor 50), if the applicant is a shareholder.

12. Letter certifying the applicant’s employment, specifying the position and monthly salary, signed by an authorized signatory and stamped with the company’s seal.

13. ID card, alien registration book or other personal document of spouse and all children. In the case of a name change, documentation of that is required. 2 copies.

14. Educational certificates of the applicant and of all children.

15. ID card and house registration certificate of witnesses to attest to the applicant’s good conduct – 2 copies. (Two witnesses are required to attest to the applicant’s good conduct).

16. Affidavit confirming age of majority according the law of the applicant’s current nationality (from embassy or consulate) translated into Thai.

17. Affidavit from applicant’s embassy or consulate in Thailand that demonstrates the applicant’s intention to renounce his current nationality when his application for Thai nationality is approved.

18. Passport (copy of every page with information recorded) – 2 copies.

Applicants must apply in person to the Office of Naturalization bringing with them the originals of the above documents and pay the application fee of 5,000 baht. Enquiries for further clarification of the above requirements may be made by telephone to 02 252 1714, or 02 252 2708.

[Mario2008]

great work Arkady, thanks for postig the translation. Very helpful.

[Maestro]

Thank you, Arkady, for the translation. I have now additionally saved it as a PDF document and attach it here. Now added to "Useful Immigration Information & Visa Descriptions, Laws, addresses, download forms, Etc" as links 26 and 27 in the current list.

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Maestro

Guidelines_for_Application_for_Naturalization_14__Oct_2009_EN.pdf

Guidelines_for_Application_for_Naturalization_14__Oct_2009_TH.pdf

[sbk]

Thanks very much, I guess next time I am in Bangkok I will stop in and pick up guidelines for married to a male Thai national and see if they've changed as well

[nakachalet]

hi mario2008

but what do they mean in english though?

would you pls translate them into english for us?

so all of us may have a chance to read for ourselves, pls?

thx much

and wishing everyone a very prosperous new year.... 2010....

[Maestro]

...but what do they mean in english though?

would you pls translate them into english for us?...

The English translation, made by Arkady, has already been posted three times above:

here as a Microsoft Word document:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/post-a102350...n-for-Natu.html

here as plain text, in a post

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Story-Thai-C...92#entry3236192

here as a PDF document:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/post-a102367...n-for-Natu.html

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Maestro

[aidenai]

I am not sure if my translation of the October 2009 guidelines can be downloaded property. So I am posting it here.

Guidelines for Applications for Thai Citizenship by Naturalization

Thank you very much for all you hard work, Arkady.

[Arkady]

2) Thai law does not forbid dual nationality, so the Special Branch have little idea why this new item appeared in the checklist. The Special Branch are of the opinion that the new item 17 may be there just to cover off the possibility of complaints from foreign countries in cases where Thailand grants nationality to a citizen of a country that does not permit it

An interesting point. Most of the people who apply are Asians and probably the vast majority come from countries that don't allow dual nationality and will cancel the nationality of any citizen known to have taken another nationality. Many are Chinese and Indian nationals and these two countries definitely don't allow dual nationality. In fact Thailand is probably one of the few Asian countries that doesn't specifically prohibit dual nationality. I can imagine that some Asian countries such as Singapore, Malaysia and China would keep a careful note of any of their nationals popping into the embassy to make a declaration that they intend to renounce their citizenship and put a red flag in their file for future follow up, whenever they come in to renew their passorts. I don't know if most Asian applicants try to keep their former nationality or not when they become Thai. Their original passports don't usually provide visa free travel to Western countries but I would guess they would still keep them, if they can. I don't know of any countries that have criminal penalties for being a dual national. The maximum downside is usually losing your original citizenship, so logically they would keep it until it became untenable. Thailand has asked Malaysia to cooperate with it by cancelling the Malaysian citizenship of dual nationals in the Deep South and it is possible that Malaysia (even though it hasn't made much progress on Thailand's request) or other countries have asked for cooperation on dual nationality issues from Thailand. If this is the case, what better way to comply that by getting applicants to inform their embassies by themselves!

[Maestro]

An off-topic post by nakachalet and the replies to it have been deleted.

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Maestro

[skippybangkok]

I am not sure if my translation of the October 2009 guidelines can be downloaded property. So I am posting it here.

Guidelines for Applications for Thai Citizenship by Naturalization

In respect of the processing for consideration of applications for Thai citizenship by naturalization His Excellency the Minister of the Interior on this 14th day of October 2009 gives approval for the setting of qualifications of applicants for naturalization as follows.

.....................p erson to the Office of Naturalization bringing with them the originals of the above documents and pay the application fee of 5,000 baht. Enquiries for further clarification of the above requirements may be made by telephone to 02 252 1714, or 02 252 2708.

Thanks for the great document.

I am a little confused now. I was under the understanding that once in the possession of a PR, you could start on the Naturalization process. But based on this it looks like only 5 years after having a PR.

or House Registration Certificate (ThorRor 14)

I have the PR for about 2.5 years now, but got the yellow book / tabien baan tor ror 13 when i bought my condo 3 years prior to that ( so does that mean i still qualify ? )

Look forward to getting a understanding of this.

[Arkady]

My understanding is that in the last few years they did accept applicants who been PRs for less than 5 years and checked their passports instead to make sure they had been in Thailand continuously for 5 years. The Nationality Act makes no mention of PR at all, just 5 years' residence. The Interior Ministry introduced the PR requirement on the grounds that it represented cast iron proof of the 5 years' residence. The introduction of the wording "not less than 5 years counted from the date they received their certificate of residence etc" in the latest guidelines does seem to suggest they are reverting to the previous system of only accepting applications from PRs of at least 5 years' standing.

If you are in Bkk, your best course of action would be to go to see the Special Branch in Building 24 at the National Police HQ (at the back) to ask for clarification on this point. It could be that they are still accepting applications on the old basis and your yellow Thor Ror 13 might help with this. If you can't make it to their office, just give them a call. They are not usually very busy and are glad to be of help. I presume you changed the Thor Ror 13 for a blue Thor Ror 14 when you got PR, as the law requires.

[skippybangkok]

If you are in Bkk, your best course of action would be to go to see the Special Branch in Building 24 at the National Police HQ (at the back) to ask for clarification on this point. It could be that they are still accepting applications on the old basis and your yellow Thor Ror 13 might help with this. If you can't make it to their office, just give them a call. They are not usually very busy and are glad to be of help. I presume you changed the Thor Ror 13 for a blue Thor Ror 14 when you got PR, as the law requires.

Thanks, did as you mentioned and they said is not 100% cast in stone. "send the documents" and they will decide. It came across as they are more interested on how you have or will benefit the country rather than being banal on the 5 years of PR being a black and white go/no-go.

Cheers

[Arkady]

Juat learned from Special Branch that the Ministry of Interior now requires applicants to sing the National and Royal Anthems from memory without looking at cheat sheets and they are also more serious about singing them right without mistakes in the words or the notes and knowing the meaning. The good news, however, is that, if you are married to a Thai national, you no longer have to sing them at all or do the Thai language tests at Police HQ or the Interior.

[nakachalet]

arkady

and that is a very good news for those who can barely carry a tune, even in the shower.... LOL

[samran]

Juat learned from Special Branch that the Ministry of Interior now requires applicants to sing the National and Royal Anthems from memory without looking at cheat sheets and they are also more serious about singing them right without mistakes in the words or the notes and knowing the meaning. The good news, however, is that, if you are married to a Thai national, you no longer have to sing them at all or do the Thai language tests at Police HQ or the Interior.

good. Now if we can just get them to process my wife's application we can put all this uncertainty behind us!

[Boksida]

Arkady, has there been anything published on this or is "word of mouth" communication from the Special Branch?

[aaoaahq]

Arkady, has there been anything published on this or is "word of mouth" communication from the Special Branch?

I would also be interested to know whether this is word of mouth or not.

Given the extraordinary delay in approvals for PR, I assume that many of us who applied for PR 3-4 years ago would now be eligible for citizenship; certainly the applicants with a Thai spouse, especially given that most of us would have either been on a relevant extension of stay or tabien baan for more than 5 years.

With the current naturalization guidelines, are we eligible or not?

Many thanks!

[Arkady]

Arkady, has there been anything published on this or is "word of mouth" communication from the Special Branch?

The advice re the singing is only word of mouth from Special Branch. If there is anything at all published on this topic it is not for external consumption. While the nationality law has become slightly more liberal, the ministry's external guidelines have got significantly tougher. It will be interesting to see if the latest guideline emphasing the need for 5 years with PR will be adhered to, particularly when and if the the backlog of PR applications is cleared. Although they all helpful and friendly I have found that Special Branch can sometimes give contradictory advice on the same topic in the space of a few weeks. This could be due to shifting attitudes being signalled from the ministry or just different interpretations. Think you just have to try to apply and see what happens. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Things could change from month to month anyway, given the lack of scrutability at the Interior Ministry which applies to Thais as well as foreigners.

[Boksida]

Thanks Arkady. I've passed all the other tests over a period of years but have never got around to doing the karaoke part. If I knew it had been dropped I would reactivate my application.

[Arkady]

Not having to sing may save some nervous energy, assuming there is no backtrack on this, specially if crib sheets are no longer permitted, but the whole process still seems to eliminate by default those without reasonably good Thai. The police will ask you to read something in formal Thai out aloud to assess your reading abililty and they emphasise that they and the Interior Ministry will only deal with the applicant, if they want to phone i.e. they won't talk to a secretary or a wife, not to mention the interviews that are in Thai without an interpreter. I can't imagine Western countries conducting citizenship interviews in Thai, although I believe the process can now be done in Spanish in the US.

[skippybangkok]

Arkady, has there been anything published on this or is "word of mouth" communication from the Special Branch?

I would also be interested to know whether this is word of mouth or not.

Given the extraordinary delay in approvals for PR, I assume that many of us who applied for PR 3-4 years ago would now be eligible for citizenship; certainly the applicants with a Thai spouse, especially given that most of us would have either been on a relevant extension of stay or tabien baan for more than 5 years.

With the current naturalization guidelines, are we eligible or not?

Many thanks!

As per my post above, they seem to look more about when you first came to Thailand on your non-imB ( watching them flick through the documents ). Best answer to this question is just give them the documents, and they will tell you. They are quite nice so go ask them.

[skippybangkok]

I was told :

If number start with #3 means Thai by birth

If number start with #5 means for those born in the hilltribes and registered in Thai hospital for birth cert.

If number start with #8 means for those transfer of citizenship. So far, I only seen transfer of citizenship for those long term hilltribe immigrants.

Can you please tell us what is your the first number on your Thai ID card?

I've got a 5 at the beginning of my Thai ID number. And yes, I'm an overseas born Thai national.

My Daughter, born here while not having an ID card yet (she is only a baby), the first number of her ID is a '1'. This may or may not change when she grows up ang gets her ID card.

With PR - your 13 digit number starts with a #8

[TheChiefJustice]

The 13 digit PR number IS your Thai ID Card number - it just has not been activated yet until you receive citizenship. I always use this number on official forms instead of my passport number.

I sit waiting patiently for my letter from the Interior Ministry. Luckily, I have not been holding my breath!

[skippybangkok]

The 13 digit PR number IS your Thai ID Card number - it just has not been activated yet until you receive citizenship. I always use this number on official forms instead of my passport number.

I sit waiting patiently for my letter from the Interior Ministry. Luckily, I have not been holding my breath!

Selection of Thai Name:

I am supposed to select thai name.......... i heard some where now you can keep your same name, just in thai lettering, and others tell me it has to be a Thai Thai name i.e. Somchai Nattakul or something to that effect.

Any one know the rules now?

[Mario2008]

Deleted as incorrect.

[aidenai]

Selection of Thai Name:

I am supposed to select thai name.......... i heard some where now you can keep your same name, just in thai lettering, and others tell me it has to be a Thai Thai name i.e. Somchai Nattakul or something to that effect.

Any one know the rules now?

Some say you can use your foreign name while others say you can't. It might depend on province and Amphur.

I've applied in August 2009 and was requested to select a Thai name. It wasn't an easy task as it had to be a non-existing Thai surname. The first time, each of the four chosen surnames were rejected by the Amphur. The second time, a new surname was accepted and registred at the Amphur. With the letter of registration I went back to the Police HQ for further proceedings.

[skippybangkok]

Selection of Thai Name:

I am supposed to select thai name.......... i heard some where now you can keep your same name, just in thai lettering, and others tell me it has to be a Thai Thai name i.e. Somchai Nattakul or something to that effect.

Any one know the rules now?

Some say you can use your foreign name while others say you can't. It might depend on province and Amphur.

I've applied in August 2009 and was requested to select a Thai name. It wasn't an easy task as it had to be a non-existing Thai surname. The first time, each of the four chosen surnames were rejected by the Amphur. The second time, a new surname was accepted and registred at the Amphur. With the letter of registration I went back to the Police HQ for further proceedings.

Thanks - Thats good advice. As the wife might end up using the same surname, might be good to get her view