Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[greenchair]

8 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Hence proving having two passports is not illegal!!

I have said that for years now. 

I have also said the half children should choose a nationality when reaching the age. It's correct they don't have to. But as can be seen in Australia, many of the mp did not denounce their citizenship of one parent, so now they do not have full rights as an Australian citizen and cannot work in politics. 

And as can be seen with half Cambodian children in America that did not denounce their cambodian parentage, now they have a criminal record so America will deport them. It is important that children of dual parents denounce one citizenship, that will give them full rights and complete protection from 1 government. 

They can then reapply for a second citizenship giving dual. But in the event of war, having a criminal violation, or entering some government jobs, the core citizenship will trump. 

[samran]

On 04/11/2017 at 5:45 AM, greenchair said:

I have said that for years now. 

I have also said the half children should choose a nationality when reaching the age. It's correct they don't have to. But as can be seen in Australia, many of the mp did not denounce their citizenship of one parent, so now they do not have full rights as an Australian citizen and cannot work in politics. 

And as can be seen with half Cambodian children in America that did not denounce their cambodian parentage, now they have a criminal record so America will deport them. It is important that children of dual parents denounce one citizenship, that will give them full rights and complete protection from 1 government. 

They can then reapply for a second citizenship giving dual. But in the event of war, having a criminal violation, or entering some government jobs, the core citizenship will trump. 

Really off topic but I think you have some things mixed up. 

 

It isn’t always easy to just pick up an old citizenship once you have renounced it. As far as Thailand is concerned that option is only available for Thai females who renounced to pick up their husbands citizenship, and then later divorced and wanted to return back to Thailand.

 

In Australia there are issues for dual citizens running for parliament. I think in the US example you described those Cambodian nationals may have been in the US since they were young but they never naturalized as US citizens.

 

You can’t deport someone who is a citizen. 

[MrPatrickThai]

9 hours ago, samran said:

Really off topic but I think you have some things mixed up. 

 

It isn’t always easy to just pick up an old citizenship once you have renounced it. As far as Thailand is concerned that option is only available for Thai females who renounced to pick up their husbands citizenship, and then later divorced and wanted to return back to Thailand.

 

In Australia there are issues for dual citizens running for parliament. I think in the US example you described those Cambodian nationals may have been in the US since they were young but they never naturalized as US citizens.

 

You can’t deport someone who is a citizen. 

For British citizenship, you can renounce it and claim it again only one time. 

[Big Guns]

You can't renounce British citizenship if like me you were born in Britain to British parents.

[Lycian]

Damn that sounds like a real pain in the arse, hope mine wont be anywhere as long as yours mate

[Neeranam]

On 03/11/2017 at 3:19 PM, Arkady said:

 

The translation shop is correct.  MoFA will not notarise a translation of a foreign document without a stamp from the Bangkok embassy of the issuing country.  I have never done this particular thing but what I think should work would this. Take the apostille to the British Embassy and ask them to make a certified copy of it, not forgetting to ask them for the Thai spelling of the consulate signatory's name (get this wrong and you guarantee yourself some more trips back and forth to CW - don't ask me how I know this) .  Get a translation made of the photocopy, including the certification on the back by the vice-consul.  Get the certified copy and the translation  notarised by MoFA, also asking them to verify the vice-consul's signature .  Job done (hopefully).

 

Yes, you will need a translation of the apostille (I wonder how they will translate 'apostille') and, no, it cannot be done without being in Bangkok.  MoFA will bind up the embassy certified copy with the translation.  You should be able to keep the original apostille without letting them bind that up too.   Unfortunately this is a process that doesn't lend itself to rushing.  MoFA prides itself on finding problems with translations and knocking them back, even though their staff are actually no better in written English than the average agency translators and will miss many glaring errors, particularly in Thai to English translations. So build in some extra time for this.  Alternatively you can pay the translation agency to handle the notarisation service themselves for a fee which may be a good idea, if you are out of town. That way they have to take responsibility for correcting errors and resubmitting the work to MoFA, if necessary.  

 

 

According to the UK embassy,

 

Further to your query, the document need to pass through 3 steps. 

 

1.       Legalisation office in Milton Keynes,

2.       Thai Embassy in London

3.       Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Thailand

 

After those 3 steps then you can translate into Thai

 

 

I've done steps 1 and 2 but from what I have been told the MoFA won't do 3

Edited November 6, 2017 by Neeranam

[Neeranam]

Actually it looks like I haven't done step 2, I thought this was done automatically.?

[Neeranam]

The UK embassy said they won't certify an aposille, but they will give a statutory declaration of a letter I write with my parents names.

 

However the Amphur did ask for my passport and birth cerificate.

 

Big decision whether to travel to Bangkok today and risk getting everything refused.

Maybe with just getting the affirmation, going to MOFA and hoping for the best is worth it.??

[Arkady]

13 hours ago, Big Guns said:

You can't renounce British citizenship if like me you were born in Britain to British parents.

 

Since you now have another citizenship, you can renounce British citizenship, regardless of the basis of your citizenship status. You have an equal right to renounce as anyone else and Brits who need to renounce it in order to obtain or retain another nationality, run for political office in another country or serve in the armed forces or another country etc would obviously complain, if they couldn't get rid of it. You just complete the form, pay the bloated fee, apply at the embassy and wait for about 6 months for the Home Secretary's approval.  Then you may reverse the process with another bloated fee once, if you can present evidence that the original renunciation was done to obtain or retain another nationality (twice, if it was the nationality of a Commonwealth country).  Also your British citizenship can now be revoked by the government, under a recent amendment to the Nationality Act, regardless of your claim to British citizenship, so long as you have another nationality or the Home Office has reason to believe you are eligible to apply for another nationality.  Although this is somewhat controversial, since the UK like Thailand is a signatory to the UN Convention Against Statelessness, people born in the UK have already had their citizenship revoked and deported.  So far it has only been done with the agreement of the country they were believed to have the right to be a citizen of, i.e. they were deported to that country which had agreed to take them and assured the UK that person was already or could become a citizen.   

 

[Arkady]

24 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

The UK embassy said they won't certify an aposille, but they will give a statutory declaration of a letter I write with my parents names.

 

However the Amphur did ask for my passport and birth cerificate.

 

Big decision whether to travel to Bangkok today and risk getting everything refused.

Maybe with just getting the affirmation, going to MOFA and hoping for the best is worth it.??

 

The embassy is correct in that MoFA will notarise a translation of a foreign document that was either legalised by a Thai embassy or consulate overseas or by a Foreign embassy or consulate in Thailand.  They have all the signatures of signatories in Thai diplomatic missions abroad and foreign missions in Thailand on file.  So they are authorised to verify their signatures. 

 

The amphur is not given any hard and fast rules about what foreign documents they need as evidence. The registrar just needs to be convinced he is not being tricked into entering false information into a tabien baan.  I was also asked for a birth certificate for this but didn't want to go the apostille route.  I told them that the statutory declaration is the British Embassy's regulation for verifying parents' details and they liked all the stamps and signatures, smiled and said fine.  I would keep your apostille in your back pocket, if you try this.  If they see it, they will most likely ask for a translation of it.  That would be your fall back position.  Since you have already got the apostille (and hats off to you for that), you  can get it notarised by the Thai Embassy in London but that will involve more expense, time and hassle.

[Neeranam]

4 minutes ago, Arkady said:

 

The embassy is correct in that MoFA will notarise a translation of a foreign document that was either legalised by a Thai embassy or consulate overseas or by a Foreign embassy or consulate in Thailand.  They have all the signatures of signatories in Thai diplomatic missions abroad and foreign missions in Thailand on file.  So they are authorised to verify their signatures. 

 

The amphur is not given any hard and fast rules about what foreign documents they need as evidence. The registrar just needs to be convinced he is not being tricked into entering false information into a tabien baan.  I was also asked for a birth certificate for this but didn't want to go the apostille route.  I told them that the statutory declaration is the British Embassy's regulation for verifying parents' details and they liked all the stamps and signatures, smiled and said fine.  I would keep your apostille in your back pocket, if you try this.  If they see it, they will most likely ask for a translation of it.  That would be your fall back position.  Since you have already got the apostille (and hats off to you for that), you  can get it notarised by the Thai Embassy in London but that will involve more expense, time and hassle.

Thanks, I'll catch my plane today then.

Does anyone have a template for d such a doc? The consul said I'd have to write my own.

[Arkady]

48 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Thanks, I'll catch my plane today then.

Does anyone have a template for d such a doc? The consul said I'd have to write my own.

 

This is what I did: I XXXX XXXX XXXX holder of British Passport No. XXXXX issued by XXXX on  XX XXXX, am a British Citizen. 

 

I do solemnly and sincerely declare that my father, XXXX XXXXX XXX born at XXXXX on XX XXX XXX (now deceased) was a British citizen by birth.  I also do solemnly and sincerely declare that my mother, XXX XXX XXXX (née XXXXX) born at XXXX on XX XXXX XXXX, is a British citizen by descent.

 

Insert mother's maiden name in brackets where it says 'née'.  If she was divorced from your father and remarried put ( née XXXX and formerly YYYY [your surname].  If either or both were born abroad to British parents put 'British citizen by descent' instead of 'British by birth'.  The British consular staff were particular about this in my case, as my mother was born abroad, but, of course, the amphur has no idea what that means and they just like the vice consul's signature on the headed notepaper, verified by MoFA as their insurance policy.  

 

The Embassy takes a day or two to turn these around but, you may be able to get the translation agency to pick it up and get everything done with MoFA. Don't forget to ask for the spelling of the vice-consul's name in Thai.

 

Good luck.

[GarryP]

27 minutes ago, Arkady said:

 

This is what I did: I XXXX XXXX XXXX holder of British Passport No. XXXXX issued by XXXX on  XX XXXX, am a British Citizen. 

 

I do solemnly and sincerely declare that my father, XXXX XXXXX XXX born at XXXXX on XX XXX XXX (now deceased) was a British citizen by birth.  I also do solemnly and sincerely declare that my mother, XXX XXX XXXX (née XXXXX) born at XXXX on XX XXXX XXXX, is a British citizen by descent.

 

Insert mother's maiden name in brackets where it says 'née'.  If she was divorced from your father and remarried put ( née XXXX and formerly YYYY [your surname].  If either or both were born abroad to British parents put 'British citizen by descent' instead of 'British by birth'.  The British consular staff were particular about this in my case, as my mother was born abroad, but, of course, the amphur has no idea what that means and they just like the vice consul's signature on the headed notepaper, verified by MoFA as their insurance policy.  

 

The Embassy takes a day or two to turn these around but, you may be able to get the translation agency to pick it up and get everything done with MoFA. Don't forget to ask for the spelling of the vice-consul's name in Thai.

 

Good luck.

I used the wording suggested by Arkady and had no problem at all.  

[Neeranam]

Well after the consul telling me to come down today to do it, they refused to do the affidavit, saying they can't do this anymore.

They asked for my birth cert, and told me to send it to the Thai embassy in London.

Extremely annoying,  after the consul told me yesterday they could do it.made up some excuse that it was get Thai colleague that was mistaken and because my father had died.said the law changed in 2012.

 

[greenchair]

On 11/3/2017 at 10:01 AM, samran said:

Not at all. I’d errr on the side of safety and get it sorted. 

I went to immigration today "to cancel my visa of stay"

They looked at it passed it one to another. Asked me what I was doing here since I should have a Thai passport now. Since I would not use the foreign passport to travel, what do I need to cancel. 

As I said long ago. 

Just a reminder to people, this is a topic full of scaremongers and layman's information. Please take it with a grain of salt and go to the relevant authorities when you are not sure. 

[samran]

10 minutes ago, greenchair said:

I went to immigration today "to cancel my visa of stay"

They looked at it passed it one to another. Asked me what I was doing here since I should have a Thai passport now. Since I would not use the foreign passport to travel, what do I need to cancel. 

As I said long ago. 

Just a reminder to people, this is a topic full of scaremongers and layman's information. Please take it with a grain of salt and go to the relevant authorities when you are not sure. 

Hardly would call myself a layman or a scaremonger. 

 

We started the application for my wife’s citizenship in 2009 and she got it in 2015. Special branch knew us well. 

 

The information I gave is what worked for us. My wife had a nice handwritten notation in her foreign passport saying her visa has been cancelled. 

Edited November 7, 2017 by samran

[Arkady]

29 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Well after the consul telling me to come down today to do it, they refused to do the affidavit, saying they can't do this anymore.

They asked for my birth cert, and told me to send it to the Thai embassy in London.

Extremely annoying,  after the consul told me yesterday they could do it.made up some excuse that it was get Thai colleague that was mistaken and because my father had died.said the law changed in 2012.

 

This is really horrible service from the British consulate. In your position, I would definitely write to the ambassador and to the FCO in London to complain.  It's bad enough that they are now refusing to provide perfectly reasonable services to British citizens resident in Thailand without good reason but to have someone lie to you on the phone and get you to fly down to Bangkok to waste your time and money is absolutely appalling.  They save money by hiring local employees, who lack the most basic knowledge about the British laws they have to deal with and don't bother to train them.  Some of them are also very aggressive and rude.  Just blaming it on a Thai colleague is not good enough. The consul needs to blame herself for hiring staff purely on the basis that they are cheap and can speak English, even if not very bright, and then failing to provide them with proper training for the work they are expected to do.

[GarryP]

8 minutes ago, samran said:

Hardly would call myself a layman or a scaremonger. 

 

We started the application for my wife’s citizenship in 2009 and she got it in 2015. Special branch knew us well. 

 

The information I gave is what worked for us. My wife had a nice handwritten notation in her foreign passport saying her visa has been cancelled. 

I too have a stamp and a note in my passport to the effect that my visa had been cancelled. They also made sure their online records were updated. Otherwise, I would be in the system as on overstay. Having said that, it was all very new to them as they hadn't handled many, if any, before at Chamchuree one-stop service center.

[Arkady]

20 minutes ago, greenchair said:

I went to immigration today "to cancel my visa of stay"

They looked at it passed it one to another. Asked me what I was doing here since I should have a Thai passport now. Since I would not use the foreign passport to travel, what do I need to cancel. 

As I said long ago. 

Just a reminder to people, this is a topic full of scaremongers and layman's information. Please take it with a grain of salt and go to the relevant authorities when you are not sure. 

 

As mentioned earlier, I came to the conclusion after reading of people's experiences in cancelling ordinary types of visa here, that there is no procedure for doing this at Immigration and that you could probably get away without doing it at ll, particularly if you use the electronic gates. However, there have been some cases reported in TV where officers at manned Immigration counters were able to do a match of someone (look krung not naturalised Thai) who entered on a foreign passport and left on a Thai one and demanded overstay fines.

 

In my case, I was a permanent resident and there is procedure for cancelling this and returning the books and being registered with an alien book and a Thai ID card simultaneously was an experiment I was not curious to conduct.   

 

For former PRs the path is clear but for others, as Samran says, it is a case of whatever works for you.

[Neeranam]

13 minutes ago, Arkady said:

This is really horrible service from the British consulate. In your position, I would definitely write to the ambassador and to the FCO in London to complain.  It's bad enough that they are now refusing to provide perfectly reasonable services to British citizens resident in Thailand without good reason but to have someone lie to you on the phone and get you to fly down to Bangkok to waste your time and money is absolutely appalling.  They save money by hiring local employees, who lack the most basic knowledge about the British laws they have to deal with and don't bother to train them.  Some of them are also very aggressive and rude.  Just blaming it on a Thai colleague is not good enough. The consul needs to blame herself for hiring staff purely on the basis that they are cheap and can speak English, even if not very bright, and then failing to provide them with proper training for the work they are expected to do.

Actually it was not a Thai member of staff unless they were raised in England ,I spoke to a British person, I did ask the name, but she gave me a Thai name.

[Arkady]

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Actually it was not a Thai member of staff unless they were raised in England ,I spoke to a British person, I did ask the name, but she gave me a Thai name.

 

It is possible she was raised in England but speaking perfect English doesn't necessarily mean she is particularly bright.

 

Over the years of using the consular service on and off, the decline in quality of staff and service has been very noticeable. Even more worrying is the ever declining range of services they are permitted by the FCO to provide.  I have given up using their notarial service, unless it is mandatory, and now use Thai lawyers instead, who are cheaper and send messengers to pick up and deliver stuff. Usually they don't even ask to see the original when they certify a copy.   

[Arkady]

A big concern for any Brit thinking of applying ought to be getting the embassy to do the declaration of intent. If you are already qualified, I would not delay further in applying.  You don't want to rock up to the embassy only to be told, "Oh, I'm sorry, you were given the wrong information. We don't do that any more."  If the FCO decides it is no longer appropriate, they will not care that that means British people no longer have the option of applying for Thai nationality.  You will just be left writing to your MP in the UK to complain.

[Arkady]

A meaningless post was deleted.

[GabbaGabbaHey]

Hi all, I was wondering what would be the impact if after the application has been sent to MOI, while waiting for the interview (which can take 6-12 months or more), you change your job -let's assume with continuity-. It seems weird that during the interview you'd mention a different company/job than the one they have in the application. Hence my question: after the application has been completed by SB, while waiting for the MOI interview do we have to keep SB informed of any change regarding work place/position to input the change into the process? Has anyone faced this situation? 

[Arkady]

45 minutes ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

Hi all, I was wondering what would be the impact if after the application has been sent to MOI, while waiting for the interview (which can take 6-12 months or more), you change your job -let's assume with continuity-. It seems weird that during the interview you'd mention a different company/job than the one they have in the application. Hence my question: after the application has been completed by SB, while waiting for the MOI interview do we have to keep SB informed of any change regarding work place/position to input the change into the process? Has anyone faced this situation? 

 

I was told by SB that the MoI only a snapshot approach, i.e. your particulars at the time of application and, and that there would be no need to notify them of any change of job but update SB with any change in contact details, although I was only ever contacted by SB, the NIA and the MoI on my mobile.  Having said that, I was asked for a new letter of employment 2.5 years after applying because my file was kicked back to SB for re-checking due to a mistake made by SB themselves.  So the correct answer is probably that there is no need to update them with any changes in your employment unless they ask for it.  If you are in the situation you describe at interview, it might be best not to tempt fate by making it abundantly clear you have changed jobs, in case some bright spark on the committee asks for an updated employment letter or recommends knocking your file back to SB for re-checking.  Unless you have changed your profession completely, you are likely to be doing something similar at the new company.   So I would be inclined to prepare something in advance and keep it broad.    

[Neeranam]

I called the Royal Thai embassy in London and I have to send my birth cert. with apostille to them. They were insistent that I had to get someone in London to submit it but I managed to get them to agree to sending it.

The fee online says £10 but they ask for £25 to cover postage even though I have to send it myself with a stamped envelope inside for sending back.

They only will accept a bank draft. 

Can I get a bank draft from a Thai bank for £25?

Does anyone know if I can get DHL or someone else to give me an envelope to put inside the envelope to the Thai embassy in London in order to get it sent back safely?

 

Sigh, all this just to get my parents names on the tabien bahn. 

 

One step at a time I guess.

 

Thanks for any advice!

 

 

[Arkady]

13 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I called the Royal Thai embassy in London and I have to send my birth cert. with apostille to them. They were insistent that I had to get someone in London to submit it but I managed to get them to agree to sending it.

The fee online says £10 but they ask for £25 to cover postage even though I have to send it myself with a stamped envelope inside for sending back.

They only will accept a bank draft. 

Can I get a bank draft from a Thai bank for £25?

Does anyone know if I can get DHL or someone else to give me an envelope to put inside the envelope to the Thai embassy in London in order to get it sent back safely?

 

Sigh, all this just to get my parents names on the tabien bahn. 

 

One step at a time I guess.

 

Thanks for any advice!

 

 

You can buy a bank draft in sterling from a Thai bank.  I guess it will cost about B500.  Last time I bought one (for about 1,000 euros) the bank wanted to see the invoice for some reason.  So I suggest you print out something from the website to show what you want it for in case they ask but they probably won't for a small amount.  I don't know if you can get a pre-paid return label for DHL or other couriers.  You will have to call around.  They should be able to do it but who knows.  UPS is usually quite helpful in Thailand.  Sounds like there is something wrong if they asked you 25 pounds to cover postage and also wanted a stamped addressed envelope.  Maybe they meant an addressed envelope. 15 pounds would cover Royal Mail registered to Thailand with some to spare.   

 

I am sorry you are having such a hard time with this.  It was bad enough for me and others just getting the declaration from the British Embassy plus translation and notarisation.  You have to look at this as some or extreme obstacle course/ initiative test with the prize of Thai citizenship waiting at the end.   Thais ask me if it is difficult for foreigners to get citizenship and I always say yes.  It was not difficult because of the official requirements which are quite basic or the singing etc.  It was difficult because of the bureaucratic banana skins thrown in one's path by Thai authorities and some foreign embassies, as well as the black hole that our applications disappeared into for years without word at the MoI.  Just look on the bright side.  Under the present regime you only have to deal with the obstacle course, as the junta did away with the pernicious black hole created by indolent and corrupt MoI staffers and politicians.  Eventually they run out of banana skins to throw at you.      

[Neeranam]

47 minutes ago, Arkady said:

You can buy a bank draft in sterling from a Thai bank.  I guess it will cost about B500.  Last time I bought one (for about 1,000 euros) the bank wanted to see the invoice for some reason.  So I suggest you print out something from the website to show what you want it for in case they ask but they probably won't for a small amount.  I don't know if you can get a pre-paid return label for DHL or other couriers.  You will have to call around.  They should be able to do it but who knows.  UPS is usually quite helpful in Thailand.  Sounds like there is something wrong if they asked you 25 pounds to cover postage and also wanted a stamped addressed envelope.  Maybe they meant an addressed envelope. 15 pounds would cover Royal Mail registered to Thailand with some to spare.   

 

I am sorry you are having such a hard time with this.  It was bad enough for me and others just getting the declaration from the British Embassy plus translation and notarisation.  You have to look at this as some or extreme obstacle course/ initiative test with the prize of Thai citizenship waiting at the end.   Thais ask me if it is difficult for foreigners to get citizenship and I always say yes.  It was not difficult because of the official requirements which are quite basic or the singing etc.  It was difficult because of the bureaucratic banana skins thrown in one's path by Thai authorities and some foreign embassies, as well as the black hole that our applications disappeared into for years without word at the MoI.  Just look on the bright side.  Under the present regime you only have to deal with the obstacle course, as the junta did away with the pernicious black hole created by indolent and corrupt MoI staffers and politicians.  Eventually they run out of banana skins to throw at you.      

Thank you sir!

 

That cheered me up and made me laugh ?

 

I was thinking that maybe I heard wrong and they just want an addresses envelope. I was asking lots of questions about dhl etc but she wanted me off the phone quickly, saying, " pee khao yaak ru eek loei" ?

Edited November 10, 2017 by Neeranam

[Neeranam]

Well only 1 hour wait at the bank, and they've just discovered that the draft had to be printed again as, although the amount was written on the draft, in the space/box with the £, it was blank. Well at least I'm getting time off work, and getting to know 5 staff members, who are getting involved. Also one lady selling milk came in and did a little song/dance routine. The joys of living in Isarn! ?

[carthaivisa]

Hi..If you got Thai Citizenship..do you need to cancel WP (work permit) or no need..I know that you have to return and cancel PR (permanent residence) document but is it necessary for WP....if you issue Thai ID so do you have to issue Thai passport at same time or you can issue passport any time like at one year later if there is no travel plan...any input will be appreciated..thanks.

 

Edited November 10, 2017 by carthaivisa