Christmas Present

[carlyai]

Automatic genset start arrived from UK. GenControl nice company. 

Thanks again Crossy. ????

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, carlyai said:

Automatic genset start arrived from UK. GenControl nice company. 

Thanks again Crossy. 

It’s clear that it’s from the other side or the world as everything is upside done ???? 

[Crossy]

Do post how you set it all up, would be handy for other members with similar gensets.

 

Are you going to arrange a battery maintainer?

 

[carlyai]

48 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Do post how you set it all up, would be handy for other members with similar gensets.

 

Are you going to arrange a battery maintainer?

 

I have a float charging device already connected to the battery and was going to use that. 

I was going to get the charging option, but remember a while ago I asked you if you removed your batt. Charger when running the genset and think the answer was No, so thought the float charge I have now would be OK.

Will draw up a diagram how I connected it to everything.

Unfortunately SWMBO has put all the modification stuff and how to do things in the 'Too Hard Basket'.

So I expect the pool to turn green, the fish to die, the vegetables to turn yellow and the desiel to be switched off.  To her credit, probably take 6 months, unless all the experts have a go if something goes wrong and then 3 weeks. ????

[carlyai]

@CrossyGood afternoon. You talked about mounting the relays. I was thinking of mounting them near the auto control module, like in the picture. On the back of the front control panel. What do you think?

Module has a neat mounting arrangement.

Off course my genset 3 position starter switch doesn't seem to be standard, but will work on the wiring tomorrow.

 

[Crossy]

Yeah, that should work.

 

Should be easy enough to work out how to hook it up. Not rocket science. You may only need 2 relays.

[carlyai]

14 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Yeah, that should work.

 

Should be easy enough to work out how to hook it up. Not rocket science. You may only need 2 relays.

That's a pic of my 3 position switch just in case the colour code means anything. I think pin it  is green wire as it's +12v. 

When the switch is OFF pin 4 and 5 aren't connected like in the module diagram. Also pin 1 12v doesn't seem to go to pin 2 when the switch is in ON.

I've tried to trace from the switch to the fuel solenoid and starter  motor but not much luck as yet.

Need to rethink/reset tomorrow as I'm missing something. 

As you said, should be easy.

I'll blame the Chinese, everyone else is. ????

[Crossy]

Don't go by the pin numbers. Check what's actually connected when and use that as your reference.

[carlyai]

47 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Don't go by the pin numbers. Check what's actually connected when and use that as your reference.

Yeah tried that and no 2 pins connected when OFF.

Don't worry...job for tomorrow. 

And there was me thinking flying in June would be easy. Probably going to be peak Covid season.

[Crossy]

9 hours ago, carlyai said:

Yeah tried that and no 2 pins connected when OFF.

 

No problem, just don't use that relay ???? 

 

Sit down with a pencil and draw out what terminals are connected in each switch position and compare with the instructions ???? 

[carlyai]

This makes sense. ???? Only 3 pins from the female plug to the genset. RHS top and bottom START,  3 pins RUN. Only need 2 relays as you suggested.

[carlyai]

6 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

No problem, just don't use that relay ???? 

 

Sit down with a pencil and draw out what terminals are connected in each switch position and compare with the instructions ???? 

Didn't see this until later. It's a trap for the unfamiliar that when you see KEY START switches with 5 wires, you expect the 5 wires to go somewhere. Thanks again.

 

[carlyai]

Success. 

Diesel genset running in manual OK with the autostart modification installed.

Connected the Automatic Transfer Switch (ATS) mains fail sense to the autostart module and on mains power fail, genset starts, runs up to speed and ATS transfers to backup power from the generator. Restored the mains, power transferred back to the mains and diesel and stops. 

I've tried to include photos but having trouble sending photos to TV.

[carlyai]

Now the only problem is with the house SafteyCut breaker tripping. Doesn't like all the house fans and fish pumps being on when switched to diesel genset. Spose with 6 or 7 fans starting upsets the output of the poor little genset.

With the fans off, no problem with SafetyCut tripping.

Might install a power on delay for the fish pumps, to give the fans time to run up to speed before switching on.

[carlyai]

8 minutes ago, carlyai said:

Now the only problem is with the house SafteyCut breaker tripping. Doesn't like all the house fans and fish pumps being on when switched to diesel genset. Spose with 6 or 7 fans starting upsets the output of the poor little genset.

With the fans off, no problem with SafetyCut tripping.

Might install a power on delay for the fish pumps, to give the fans time to run up to speed before switching on.

Well as if magic, just had a real power fail and all working fine with no SafetyCut trip.

With a real power fail, the fans are still spinning when the backup power is applied so not starting from 0, so no tripping problems.

'I love it when a plan comes together'.

[Crossy]

Is your Safe-T-Cut already on the minimum sensitivity (biggest mA number)?

 

You may also consider grounding the neutral at the genset (stick a rod in) as that will help the Safe-T-Cut to operate reliably on an earth fault (and hopefully reduce the number of unwanted trips).

 

Our genset neutral isn't grounded but I've had no issues with RCD's misbehaving.

[carlyai]

On 4/26/2021 at 1:41 PM, Crossy said:

Is your Safe-T-Cut already on the minimum sensitivity (biggest mA number)?

 

You may also consider grounding the neutral at the genset (stick a rod in) as that will help the Safe-T-Cut to operate reliably on an earth fault (and hopefully reduce the number of unwanted trips).

 

Our genset neutral isn't grounded but I've had no issues with RCD's misbehaving.

Well have just finished earthing the neutral and the SafetyCut still trips.

I isolated the shed then the aquaponics submersible pump and the SafetyCut didn't trip. Bought a bedroom airconditioner online without the submersible pump and no trip. Then switched to shed/submersible pump back on and no trip.

I have a earth leakage breaker supplying the shed/pool/ fish and vegetable water and air pumps, but it's never tripped.

Seems the 3 phase SafetyCut sometimes trips and sometimes doesn't trip.

The aquaponics pumps are still on extension lead as that is the next job.

I was thinking that if they make a 3 phase SafetyCut with a 'bypass' I could switch it there and just install earth leakage breakers on the kit that should have them. Just replace the CU standard breakers with earth leakage type.

The other easier options are: install a power on delay in the shed circuit so it switches on after a few minuites. 

and, finish wiring the aquaponics pumps with earths and hopefully that helps.

Still not 100% confident anything except changing the 3 phase SafetyCut will work.

It's such a beast I would need to get one with a bypass that are the same dimensions.

What do you think?

 

[Crossy]

The power-on delay would be easy and cheap to implement, if it fixes the issue them problem solved.

 

I think Safe-T-Cut removed the Direct or Bypass setting form all their devices due to it removing all earth leakage protection.

 

How is your single-phase genset wired to your 3-phase load and Safe-T-Cut?

 

EDIT Removing the Safe-T-Cut (or possibly faking Bypass by removing the actuator link) and adding individual RCBOs on "risky" circuits is a solution, but could get expensive. It has the advantage that only the "bad" circuit gets turned off not the whole house.

[carlyai]

3 hours ago, Crossy said:

The power-on delay would be easy and cheap to implement, if it fixes the issue them problem solved.

 

I think Safe-T-Cut removed the Direct or Bypass setting form all their devices due to it removing all earth leakage protection.

 

How is your single-phase genset wired to your 3-phase load and Safe-T-Cut?

 

EDIT Removing the Safe-T-Cut (or possibly faking Bypass by removing the actuator link) and adding individual RCBOs on "risky" circuits is a solution, but could get expensive. It has the advantage that only the "bad" circuit gets turned off not the whole house.

Thanks Crossy. I have a few earth leakage Schneider breakers.  Was hoping there could be a SafetyCut mod, but was afraid to ask here.

Should be safe enough to remove/bypass the actuator link as i just turn off the main incoming 3 phase breaker at the outside CU and disable the genset.

Ill have a read up on 'the actuator link'.

Then ill ask for help or turn the power of and have a look inside the SafetyCut. Any clues?

[Crossy]

7 minutes ago, carlyai said:

Then ill ask for help or turn the power of and have a look inside the SafetyCut. Any clues?

 

With luck you won't have to open the beast, can you post a decent photo of the switch actuator (the levers you use to turn it on/off) bit of the Safe-T-Cut?

[maxpower]

How does the single phase generator connect itself to the three phase service?

 

[Crossy]

57 minutes ago, maxpower said:

How does the single phase generator connect itself to the three phase service?

 

Yeah, I was wondering too if something is confusing the Safe-T-Cut.

[carlyai]

SafetyCut

 

Crossy's forgotten about this setup as he can't remember everything. ????

About 5 years ago the electrician wired the 3 phase SafetyCut incorrectly and it kept tripping. There was a lot of discussion on the electrical forum about this and I rewired it as per the SafetyCut wiring diagram and it fixed the tripping. Now it used to only trip on a very close lightning strike. When a or the surge protectors operated due to a close lightning strike then the SafetyCut would trip.

 

Single Phase Genset to 3 phase house.

I have a 3 phase change-over-switch. So the single phase genset active is wired to the standby 3 phase inputs and neutral wired to neutral. I'm using the 3 phase input as 3 separate active and neutral phases. I have only 2 actual 3 phase water heaters.

When i had the genset and the Automatic Changeover Switch (ACS) in manual and i started the diesel, then 10 min later manually change to switch from mains to standby, no problems and no breakers tripped, but, I turned off the fans and other loads before I switched to standby, AND, the shed and pumps were not on the diesel genset feed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[carlyai]

Here's some pics. of the SafetyCut and the wiring of the transfer switch.

 

[Crossy]

Important question - When it trips is there a red flag in the little window of the leftmost trip unit? (that will indicate that it opened on leakage) If there isn't then we have a different reason for the tripping. You can verify by using the Test button.

 

That is the RCD bit so if you can remove the link between it and the three-phase MCB on the right it won't trip on leakage. With luck the pin or whatever will come out easily so you can replace it if you ever need to.

[maxpower]

I assume there are no existing earth leaks on the load of this installation lurking just below the RCD trip level.

In theory, a three phase four pole RCD operating with all poles on the same phase should not trip if all legs are balanced, but its not always the ideal or recommended arrangement.

 

The sensitivity level of a four pole RCD might change when all pole coils are detecting faults on the same phase. 

 

Problems caused from four pole detection coils being in phase can be overcome by using only two poles of a four pole RCD.

When applying single phase generator power to a three phase RCD protected service it would be best to have separate earth leakage and over current protection at the generator and do the load transfer switching after the RCD's.
 

[carlyai]

40 minutes ago, maxpower said:

Problems caused from four pole detection coils being in phase can be overcome by using only two poles of a four pole RCD.

When applying single phase generator power to a three phase RCD protected service it would be best to have separate earth leakage and over current protection at the generator and do the load transfer switching after the RCD's.
 

Thanks for the post.

Bit difficult to change any wiring now. 

If I can figure out how to stop that actuator , as Crossy suggested (if it is that causing the trouble) then changing over some breakers to RCB's would seem a good outcome.

I have a spare delay that I may be able to install in the shed CU and see if that works.

It would be nice to have an old SafetyCut 3 phase unit to work on on the bench.

Thinking, thinking.

[maxpower]

20 minutes ago, carlyai said:

Thanks for the post.

Bit difficult to change any wiring now. 

If I can figure out how to stop that actuator , as Crossy suggested (if it is that causing the trouble) then changing over some breakers to RCB's would seem a good outcome.

I have a spare delay that I may be able to install in the shed CU and see if that works.

It would be nice to have an old SafetyCut 3 phase unit to work on on the bench.

Thinking, thinking.

 

Give the generator its own RCD and bypass the Safe-T-Cut shunt trip when transfer switch is in generator position. Maybe use transfer switch aux contacts if available or a relay.

[carlyai]

14 hours ago, maxpower said:

 

Give the generator its own RCD and bypass the Safe-T-Cut shunt trip when transfer switch is in generator position. Maybe use transfer switch aux contacts if available or a relay.

I can't find any information (except the SafetyCut pdf) on the workings of this beast. Plus to get to it requires working on top of a ladder. I can see how I think the actuator interlocks with the 3 phase circuit breaker part, but not sure how to attach it. Seems no one on You Tube has done this. ????

The incoming 3 phase house power comes underground from an outside CU where the mains overhead wires terminate. The underground wires come up into the transfer switch box, via 3 stabalisers. Also the generator feed and feed to the house consumer unit, which is 3 to 4 m away thru 2 cavity brick walls and the SafetyCut. All the house power is run up in conduits to a channel on top of the walls bond beam. So it's difficult to rewire from the transfer switch to the SafetyCut/ 

house consumer unit. 

Be nice to have another similar SafetyCut to pull to pieces but they cost around B6000.

I could write to SafetyCut and ask them how to physically deactivate the actuator, and they may answer, but doubt it.

I have this phase under/over delay module that I'll see if I can fit it to the shed feed and delay it's operation for say 3 mins.

At the moment I have 1 x 2 HP pool pump (on 5 min delay and 3 hours early morning and afternoon timeswitch), one air and small 45 w pumps for the fish room, then 85 w submersible in the greenhouse sump tank and 3 other pumps on float switches. The bore jet pump only operates when the 2000 L tank is below a limit, an irrigation/watet pump only operates when the tap is turned on and the other 2 pumps are submersibles in another sump from the mineralization tank and irrigation. 

Rarely would they be on all together.

All was good (had a seperate phase feed from the outside consumer unit to the shed)until I became a fish keeper and needed backup power for fish air supply.

 

So plan X will be to install the phase delay in the shed cct. then arrange a more stable platform to look at the SafetyCut. (still gotta check out if it trips on leakage).

Happy Australian Mother's Day. ????

 

 

[maxpower]

5 hours ago, carlyai said:

I can't find any information (except the SafetyCut pdf) on the workings of this beast.

 

From photo It appears Safe-T-Cut is using a standard shunt trip.

 

Remove cover and observe connections to the bottom of the trip. 

 

Disconnecting one of these connections will disable the RCD.

 

 

 

Example shunt trip