Puppy Potty Training

[Sheryl]

My niece recently acquired a very tiny Pomeranian puppy...a friend of hers bought him at Chatuchak but the friend's dad refused to let her keep it so wound up with my niece. Was very young, maybe 4-5 weeks if that, I really don't think he was ready to leave his mother but that's Chatuchak. Also being Chatuchak, the poor thing was very ill and almost died, luckily pulled through thanks to the Mahidol vetinary Hospital.

Anyhow he's now maybe 6-8 weeks old and VERY cute, but also very unhousebroken and proving pretty messy to live with (my niece is in an apartment). By unhousebroken I mean not even paper trained. My impression watching him is that he may be simply to young to train as he doesn't seem to know when he needs to go. No leg lifting, no squatting...the pee and poop just shoot out and he doesn't show any sign of knowing it.

Can someone tell me if this is the case, and at what age it is reasonable to start trying to train a dog re elimination? (Or anything else...my niece, who has grown up around dogs, hasn't been able to train him on anything. He really does seem just too young to understand).

Also -- my niece has a gruelling class schedule and cannot manage to walk the dog in the morning, only after class (evening and night). I know that normal dogs if they are to avoid going in the house have to be walked at least morning and evening, and given how tiny this fellow is I assume his bladder and bowel capacity to be more limited, so I am thinking that we may need to find an alternative toilet arrangement for him.

Has anyone had any experience teaching dogs to use kitty-litter type boxes? I've seen stuff sold for use by dogs. Does it work?

Also appreciate any info on Pemeranians in general esp toy ones. Maybe they are all toy but this one seems exceptionally so..he is TINY i.e. fits in the palm of the hand and is all fluff. hardly weighs a thing.

Thanks

[Nienke]

My niece recently acquired a very tiny Pomeranian puppy...a friend of hers bought him at Chatuchak but the friend's dad refused to let her keep it so wound up with my niece. Was very young, maybe 4-5 weeks if that, I really don't think he was ready to leave his mother but that's Chatuchak. Also being Chatuchak, the poor thing was very ill and almost died, luckily pulled through thanks to the Mahidol vetinary Hospital.

Anyhow he's now maybe 6-8 weeks old and VERY cute, but also very unhousebroken and proving pretty messy to live with (my niece is in an apartment). By unhousebroken I mean not even paper trained. My impression watching him is that he may be simply to young to train as he doesn't seem to know when he needs to go. No leg lifting, no squatting...the pee and poop just shoot out and he doesn't show any sign of knowing it.

Can someone tell me if this is the case, and at what age it is reasonable to start trying to train a dog re elimination? (Or anything else...my niece, who has grown up around dogs, hasn't been able to train him on anything. He really does seem just too young to understand).

Also -- my niece has a gruelling class schedule and cannot manage to walk the dog in the morning, only after class (evening and night). I know that normal dogs if they are to avoid going in the house have to be walked at least morning and evening, and given how tiny this fellow is I assume his bladder and bowel capacity to be more limited, so I am thinking that we may need to find an alternative toilet arrangement for him.

Has anyone had any experience teaching dogs to use kitty-litter type boxes? I've seen stuff sold for use by dogs. Does it work?

Also appreciate any info on Pemeranians in general esp toy ones. Maybe they are all toy but this one seems exceptionally so..he is TINY i.e. fits in the palm of the hand and is all fluff. hardly weighs a thing.

Thanks

Hi Sheryl,

This is a part of an booklet I've written for the local shelter here in Chiang Mai, Care for Dogs:

Dogs have a natural dislike of soiling the area which they eat and sleep in. In order to make the puppy understand where the toilet area is, they need to be closely watched until fully toilet-trained. When you are unable to do so, it is advisable to keep them in a crate or small confined area with a toilet area, which can consist of plastic covered with newspaper. When they become uneasy, start circling around, whine, sit in front of or even scratches the door, or in any other way indicates they need to go out, you can take them to a certain spot outside (which will become the dog’s toilet). At the moment they relieve themselves, reward them cheerfully, reinforcing correct toilet- training. Very young puppies need to be taken out every 1 to 2 hours, and after they eat, sleep, play or any other forms of excitement. If you are consistent and alert in the beginning, your puppy can be toilet-trained in only a few weeks (although it does occur occasionally that it takes longer). In case your puppy still makes a mistake once toilet-trained, blame yourself and not your puppy, as it means that you have not watched them (and the signs they have given you).

Actually the toilet training should have started from the moment the puppy had arrived in his new home. But, as that wasn't the case it should start straight away. The sooner she starts the better.

Problem is, though, that toilet training requires some intensive effort on the part of the owner for a couple of weeks, untill the pup 100% knows what's required, and your niece isn't there most of the day. In fact, the pup needs to be watched all the time when it's running loose and as soon as there's any sign it is going to relieve itself, it needs to be picked up and brought to the place where it can do so (such a small dog can be taught to use a litter bo. At the moment, it relieves itself it needs to be rewarded.

Keeping a dog confined for more than 4 hours is not in the benefit of the animal's well-being. And for puppies this is 2 hours.

Hope this has given you some insight in how to toilet train a puppy.

Nienke

[bina]

hi all,

for mini toy size dogs, the cat litter box can be used. however, at that age, if the pup hasnt been socialized by mom either, then what nienke says is true but u can try to minimize damages.

one: designate one area of apartment as bed/food and water area and poopoo area. fence off or put board up in room or close in bathroom w/o any access to dangerous chemicals or possiblility of falling in bathroom (if its thai style toilet) if there is no bathroom, then fence off corner of apartment with boards doesnt have to be high up. just a corner with two boards works well.

two: put box at other end

three: make sure that pup has toy or two for gnawing, and one for cuddling (Thats chew proof however and washable).

perhaps someone can come during hte day and play with pup, check water bowl, feed /wait a few minutes and place in litter box etc.

wash floor with vinegar everywhere except where u want the pup to poo.

feed at regular intervals to get bowel movements in synch.

the litter box can be sand filled or put newspapers, or just a corner of the floor (my method) so i wash floor every day but in the end even reluctant lhasa pup was trained.

have to make sure pup is played with etc so doesnt develop shit eating/playing as a habit either.

best is to get a friend or someone to help during the day as a sort of dog sitter/helper; or take with her to classes, that size dog can be tranported all over in a small carry bag for dogs.

[MTW]

I have seen that Thai dog sellers, sell dogs much, much too young and lie about their age. They always say the dog is 8 weeks because that is the youngest ethical age a puppy should be sold.

Toy breeds are famously difficult to housebreak. They may never be perfect. I have tried using litter boxes and only found it effective for short periods ...i.e. when they get older they don't like it, don't fit in the box easily, etc.

What I have been doing for many years, is having something I call pee-pads in my house for my toy breeds. I buy these in the US, they are cloth, something like a diaper, come in various sizes, are chemically treated to attract dogs, and to cut down on smell. Then you wash them with a little bleach, and use again. Dogs don't like to pee on wood, ceramic, whatever, floors in my experience, and will naturally seek out a place that can absorb the urine, like bathroom, kitchen rugs ... so these pads do just that. Sometimes they never learn the difference between these pads and some other pad like thing, the small rugs or towels on the floor, so don't expect perfection.

And since we are in Thailand, you would have to order these pads over the internet and they are quite expensive. But there are also disposable paper pads I have seen here for sale, or the paper training method.

Anyway, Toy breeds can not be expected to "toilet" only one or two times a day and you are setting yourself up for failure if you expect that. And certainly not for a puppy. If the dog owner does not have enough time to spend with the dog, training it will be difficult to say the least. Also, a young puppy like this needs to be fed more often than twice a day. And if the puppy is left alone all day, it will probably not want to sleep at night too much as it gets older, and will see the evening/night time as play time, not sleep time.

Dogs are very social animals and need other dogs or humans to keep them company most hours of the day or they are not happy, and will develop problems that make them difficult.

[Sheryl]

Hi Sheryl,

This is a part of an booklet I've written for the local shelter here in Chiang Mai, Care for Dogs:

Dogs have a natural dislike of soiling the area which they eat and sleep in. In order to make the puppy understand where the toilet area is, they need to be closely watched until fully toilet-trained. When you are unable to do so, it is advisable to keep them in a crate or small confined area with a toilet area, which can consist of plastic covered with newspaper. When they become uneasy, start circling around, whine, sit in front of or even scratches the door, or in any other way indicates they need to go out, you can take them to a certain spot outside (which will become the dog’s toilet). At the moment they relieve themselves, reward them cheerfully, reinforcing correct toilet- training. Very young puppies need to be taken out every 1 to 2 hours, and after they eat, sleep, play or any other forms of excitement. If you are consistent and alert in the beginning, your puppy can be toilet-trained in only a few weeks (although it does occur occasionally that it takes longer). In case your puppy still makes a mistake once toilet-trained, blame yourself and not your puppy, as it means that you have not watched them (and the signs they have given you).

Actually the toilet training should have started from the moment the puppy had arrived in his new home. But, as that wasn't the case it should start straight away. The sooner she starts the better.

Problem is, though, that toilet training requires some intensive effort on the part of the owner for a couple of weeks, untill the pup 100% knows what's required, and your niece isn't there most of the day. In fact, the pup needs to be watched all the time when it's running loose and as soon as there's any sign it is going to relieve itself, it needs to be picked up and brought to the place where it can do so (such a small dog can be taught to use a litter bo. At the moment, it relieves itself it needs to be rewarded.

Keeping a dog confined for more than 4 hours is not in the benefit of the animal's well-being. And for puppies this is 2 hours.

Hope this has given you some insight in how to toilet train a puppy.

Nienke

Thanks all.

Will certainly try the vinegar, and will go ahead and plan on a litter box approach.

My niece has been trying to train the puppy ever since she got it, doing exactly what Nienke described. Problem is that the puppy does not give any sign he needs eliminate, in fact as I mentioned he does not seem to know it himself nor be aware he is doing it, often doesn't even stand still while it's happening (he is a whirlwind of motion). As for confining him and waiting for signs he needs to come out, that happens the very second he is confined and has nothing to do with elimination. This dog is like a little wind up doll that's been wound up (except that he seldom winds down!) and races around the apartment playfully most of the time, will immediately start to whine and knock the door if confined simply because he wants to get out and play.

So the only way she knows is when he's already going and by the time she picks him up he has already gone. She still picks him and puts him on the newspapers but he doesn't seem to get the connection, perhaps because he at that point is no longer eliminating. Is it possible that he is just too young? And also of course she is not able to do this every single time, only on evenings and weekends when she's home.

We don't know anyone who can come in and watch the dog during the l day, all her friends and neighbors are also busy with classes. For that matter most people are busy at work or school during weekdays, are they not? So how do people manage to housetrain their pets? Are there kennel type places we could send the dog to be trained for a few weeks and come back?

MTW: I appreciate that dogs are social animals, but surely it is usual for a dog's owner to be out during the day, at a job or school. Certainly I know many, many owners of happy-seeming dogs who are not able to be with them during the day, just evenings and week-ends. In fact I would say this is the case for the majority of dogs in developed countries. People feed and walk their dogs first thing in the morning and then walk them again as soon as they get home in the evening; dog is sorry to see them go in the morning and greets them joyfully in the evening, but as long as there is good quality interaction when the owner is not at work or school, the dogs seems to adjust.. No doubt dogs would rather have the owner home all day, just as the owner would like to be able to be home during the day, but that's life, isn't it?

I don't know much about the specifics of dog care but I'm pretty intuitive towards animals in general, and this puppy is happy and thriving (albeit not housebroken!)...

Edited May 21, 2007 by Sheryl

[Nienke]

MTW: I appreciate that dogs are social animals, but surely it is usual for a dog's owner to be out during the day, at a job or school. Certainly I know many, many owners of happy-seeming dogs who are not able to be with them during the day, just evenings and week-ends. In fact I would say this is the case for the majority of dogs in developed countries. People feed and walk their dogs first thing in the morning and then walk them again as soon as they get home in the evening; dog is sorry to see them go in the morning and greets them joyfully in the evening, but as long as there is good quality interaction when the owner is not at work or school, the dogs seems to adjust.. No doubt dogs would rather have the owner home all day, just as the owner would like to be able to be home during the day, but that's life, isn't it?

I don't know much about the specifics of dog care but I'm pretty intuitive towards animals in general, and this puppy is happy and thriving (albeit not housebroken!)...

That many people own a dog or dogs and work all day, leaving it/them for upto 8 hours alone (in the west often in the house) doesn't mean that's good for the well-being of the dog. Destructive behavior, unruly behavior, seperation anxiety, house soiling, excessive barking are only a few of the behavior problems that can result out of this. And it often does.

Sure, the dog is sorry to see them leave in the morning; just another boring day ahead of them. And most dogs will happily greet their owner/s on return, whether that is after a 5 minute leave, several hours, weeks or months.

Nienke

[MTW]

Wow, thanks again Nienke. I wasn't sure when I first read this if I should respond or not. Decided not as I seem to mostly piss people off when those are not my intentions.

So, to Sheryl: My comment was not directed at you personally or meant to infer that the dog you spoke about in your post, was having a terrible life. Since the reason we are posting here, instead of just writing privately, is to share with others our experiences, education, opinions, whatever.

My comment was just simply to warn that some dogs develop problems when they are kept alone too much. This is a fact, and problem behaviour is the reason that many dogs end up in shelters. They can develop problems for other reasons also.

Raising a puppy well and without too much difficulty is hard to do if you don't have a lot of time for it. It is hard to do when you have all your time free. I am not saying it is wrong, just that the job is more difficult. Dogs need consistency to learn, and if you can only correct the dog 2 times per day, but the dogs does X thing, 15 times a day, it will be harder for it to learn what you want.

Also, dogs can learn from other dogs what to do. I suggested that having more than one dog can be a good thing for the exact reason that some people don't have the ideal amount of time. I have often worked 12 hours a day, and left my dogs in my house. But they had other dogs, a place to pee, toys, food and water always available, they were toy breeds and older dogs, and I had a large home. And I had a large yard for them, but didn't leave them outside when not home because I worry about theft.

Sorry I made you feel that you had to defend yourself ... it isn't even your dog.

[bina]

... and like babies whose mothers work and breast feed, the baby will nurse more often at night, the dog will want to play all evening since he/she slept all day (unless its a boxer in which case shredded toiletpaper has provided quality entertainment all day)...

western dog owners spend tons of money on wierd toys like the kong toy that u can fill with peanutbutter, or the 'hidacube' with dog treats hidden in side nad the dog has to work to get them out, adn people pay kids to walk the dog at 16 00

[MTW]

And a growing business in the US is doggie day care. Because many people live alone, with only one dog, and work 60 hours a week. Some people take them every day, most I believe take them a few days of the 5 days they are working, and this seems to add a lot to the dogs quality of life, as well as the owner's enjoyment of the dog.

My Mother used to have a second house up in the mountains, outside Los Angeles. One weekend my husband and I went there, along with our 6-8 dogs, I don't remember how many we had then. Around dinner time, a old, half-dead looking Husky showed up and kept hanging our around all the glass doors. Then he decided to camp out on the front doorstep. I put some bedding out there for him but was worried because there are rampant coyotes that attack dogs there. They come around our house every night I have ever stayed there ... probably because of my abundant potential food suppy, my dogs!

I got worried that this dog would end up a target since he was sleeping openly right under the lights, and there is no fencing around my Mother's property. So finally, I let him in, but put him in the laundry room in order to isolate him from my dogs. He had food, water, toys, bed, and it was maybe midnight already.

He never made one sound and seemed content. Then I woke up, three floors above the laundry room, hearing some very strange sounds at around 4 am. I went down, opened the door, and he had attacked the washer and drier, eaten all the water pipes, the control dials of the machines, and then eaten a hole into the drywall, a BIG hole, climbed through it, and was now in another room, eating a hole through the 80 year old wood wall, that would lead to the outside.

I have heard of other large dogs that eat walls when they are left alone a lot, and that going to doggie day care resolved the problem.

The thing that shocked me about this, besides the immense damage, and that I was somewhat scared for my life when I couldn't easily figure out where he was, was that he never made a peep. I would have expected some howling or barking to start first.

[elfe]

sorry to say it so blunt - but leaving such a young puppy alone for so many hours is cruel and makes it depressed. i feel sorry for the little thing, first being taken away from mother at such a young stage and then in the cage at jj and then sick and now alone for many hours if your niece wants to keep this puppy i would advise to buy him a mate. puppies need to have physical contact all the time, be it to humans or (better) other dogs or litter mates. at the moment i have 5 8week old pups here which i raised per bottlefeeding from the time they were 2 weeks old. they need dog contact at this age the most to socialize and develop normally. also it is so wonderful to watch them play and cuddle together.

for potty training,you cannot expect a puppy to hold the bladder for more than two hours the most, my pups pee all the time when they are awake and also drink a lot as they play and run and it is hot here.

[Sheryl]

Nienke and MTW, sorry if I sounded defensive, it wasn't that so much as I was a bit incredulous at the suggestion that people shouldn't have dogs if they (the dogs) will be alone while the owner is at work/school. Would be a hel_l of lot fewer homes for dogs if that guideline were followed.

I agree it is not optimal and that dogs (as well as cats, for that matter) will benefit if they can have more companionship. Where I don't agree is that it often results in the kind of problems Nienke mentioned. Perhaps sometimes, but in the vast majority of cases I have observed (which is virtually everyone I have ever known who owned a dog) it doesn't...the dog adjusts. I suspect the quality of the owner-dog relationship and both the quantity and quality of companionship provided when the owner is at home is an important aspect. I would also guess (and I know it is true of cats) that it may be easier when the absences are consistently times so that the animal knows when to expect it and when to expect the owner's return.

Getting back to the original topic, Nienke, can you address my question about the puppy not giving any signals of needing to eliminate (or of even knowing he's doing so)?? Because without any advance notice by the time we can grab the dog and put him in the toilet area he's already finished his business and moved away from where he did it (this puppy as I mentioned is nonstop motion) , which I think adds to his not understanding the message...

Is it possible he is simply too young? We don't know his age but it's certainly less than 8 weeks. Some teeth have come in but he still tries to suckle. ?4-6 weeks maybe??

[Nienke]

Getting back to the original topic, Nienke, can you address my question about the puppy not giving any signals of needing to eliminate (or of even knowing he's doing so)?? Because without any advance notice by the time we can grab the dog and put him in the toilet area he's already finished his business and moved away from where he did it (this puppy as I mentioned is nonstop motion) , which I think adds to his not understanding the message...

Is it possible he is simply too young? We don't know his age but it's certainly less than 8 weeks. Some teeth have come in but he still tries to suckle. ?4-6 weeks maybe??

Some teeth only now? Wow, that's very young. They must have sold the poor creature right after weaning, about 3 weeks of age.

Beside the potty training, this pup grows up without any contact with other dogs (littermates and a mother that will correct it when necessary) and, thus very prone to all sorts of behavior problems later in life. And might end up in the Pom you've described in a former post.

Pups/dogs normally will not eliminate there where they eat and sleep. If confined to a small area in the beginning, then the pup very well will by itself choose another area, such as some newspapers on the ground, a litterbox or a box with sand in this area to release itself.

But, if allowed to run freely through the house, it has no clue where is appropriate and where not. That has to be taught.

It is very possible the pup is pretty quick when it feels the need. Therefore, it requires hawks eyes watching every moves it makes all the time when loose. If the appartment/room or house is big, then that's a very difficult thing to do for the owner, as it means you have to be in the pup's neighborhood all the time. That's another reason why a confined area is a good option.

There is just not an easy way of training the pup. The owner has to spend time and effort in the toilet training which requires her to be there all the time. If that's not possible due to work or study, then the consequence is a house soiling dog.

Nienke

[Sheryl]

Well, an update:

FINALLY he's housebroken!!!

Things got pretty bad there for a while, especially as my niece had to move into a much smaller efficiency apartment, little puddles all around were starting to wear her nerves thin.

What finally worked was I bought a spray at a pet shop, brand name of this spray is Repper but there are others around, basically I think it is like citronella or lemon oil of some kind, supposedly non-toxic but offensive to dogs. You spray it wherever you don't want them to do their business. I was a bit concerned that it would make him unhappy to be in the apartment (since the packaging advertises it as a way of keeping strays out of your yard) but doesn't seem to at all. He's still happy and comfortable in the apartment,, just stopped peeing in it. I think it was also a case of his having gotten old enough to have some bladder control (I do think he really was too young when I first posted), but the spray sure seems to have worked. He doesn't even need to use the box altho she provides it in a spot which has not been sprayed with repellent. She gets up and walks him before she leaves for class, then again as soon as she gets home and one more time before going to sleep, and that's that.

A happy ending indeed, since my niece has grown passionately attached to the little fella.

[lotus eater]

Well, an update:

FINALLY he's housebroken!!!

Things got pretty bad there for a while, especially as my niece had to move into a much smaller efficiency apartment, little puddles all around were starting to wear her nerves thin.

What finally worked was I bought a spray at a pet shop, brand name of this spray is Repper but there are others around, basically I think it is like citronella or lemon oil of some kind, supposedly non-toxic but offensive to dogs. You spray it wherever you don't want them to do their business. I was a bit concerned that it would make him unhappy to be in the apartment (since the packaging advertises it as a way of keeping strays out of your yard) but doesn't seem to at all. He's still happy and comfortable in the apartment,, just stopped peeing in it. I think it was also a case of his having gotten old enough to have some bladder control (I do think he really was too young when I first posted), but the spray sure seems to have worked. He doesn't even need to use the box altho she provides it in a spot which has not been sprayed with repellent. She gets up and walks him before she leaves for class, then again as soon as she gets home and one more time before going to sleep, and that's that.

A happy ending indeed, since my niece has grown passionately attached to the little fella.

Do you mean to say that she sprays (almost everywhere in) the flat every day, or that she did this before the dog finally learned? If the former, can you really say he's been housebroken? But either way if both dog and owner are happy then it's a happy ending certainly.

[Sheryl]

[

Do you mean to say that she sprays (almost everywhere in) the flat every day, or that she did this before the dog finally learned? If the former, can you really say he's been housebroken? But either way if both dog and owner are happy then it's a happy ending certainly.

She sprays regularly, i.e. after every time the floor is mopped (since that would otherwise remove the residue odor), just a tiny bit here and there is enough and as it is just a one room apartment, and the dog too small to climb up on anything, it is quite easy to do. This victory was just recently achieved so she hasn't tried yet minus the spray, I think best give it a little while so that he is thoroughly accustomed. At least till she starts to run low on the spray. Hopefully by then good habits will be entrenched.

Tutsi if you're reading this and still having cat problems on the verandeh, this spray would probably solve it.

Altho advertised for yard use I'm not sure how one would go about spraying a whole yard....but for limited spaces it's fine. It is in an oil base so the odor stays on until washed off, altho our human noses detect it only when first sprayed (smells just like citronella)

[lotus eater]

brand name of this spray is Repper but there are others around,

Would you please give me a little more detail on this? Is it widely available throughout the country? Is the labelling in Thai or English or both? I ask because I'm presently out of Thailand and I want to pass the info to my girlfriend so she can go buy it - in Chiang Mai.