Bangkok is the capital of Asia for digital nomads, study finds

[Neeranam]

6 hours ago, BusyB said:

 

Yeah, I wonder how long it'll take them to decide they have to tap that revenue possibility as well now it's become such a big thing ...

esp crypto traders. I know a couple who have made in excess of $10 million  this year! 

[fdsa]

36 minutes ago, recom273 said:

Lol - great description. I have no idea if this is the truth. 

it is very correct, especially the "don't even want to be called digital nomads."

we call ourselves "programmers", "designers", "remote teachers", IT managers and whoever else, but if you meet a person calling themself a "digital nomad" then for a very high probability it's some kind of referral-links-spammer-in-social-networks living in Thailand on parents' money.

[HelloWelcome77]

14 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Digital nomad ie: a backpacker with a laptop posting rubbish on social media all day.

That's not a job or a business. 

I haven't met one one yet that actually makes money

 

That's not always the case. There are plenty of jobs you can do on the internet from anywhere in the world, as long as you know what you really want to do, you've got the right skills and some regular clients in your area of expertise. Being a digital nomad isn't only about posting s..t on social media. Some examples are online teaching (very high demand, especially from China at the moment, but it doesn't pay very well) websites designing, online marketing and... freelance translation. One of my friends is a freelance translator (mostly specialized in legal and technical matters) and he's been doing this for 12 years completely online and on his own from Thailand and various countries across Asia. He doesn't work with local translation companies in order to avoid troubles (and very little demand in his pair of languages here anyway) and only translates from Eng to his native language. He's only got 3 translation companies based abroad as regular clients (yes, they are CLIENTS only, not employers), but they've constantly been sending him work for years and he's always busy. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be happy to hear someone saying "that's not a job or a business", considering the facts that he works up to 12 hours a day and makes between 110,000 and 150,000 baht a month, much better than teaching Eng for 8 hours a day, sweating in a 40 over-excited Thai kids classroom in some local public school lost in the middle of nowhere for 30 K a month, right? And... he's everything but a "backpacker". As you can see, being a "digital nomad" is a much broader concept than the "cliche" you described in your post. However, I agree that a lot of so-called digital nomads have no idea of what they really want to do. With their mind full of dreams and so-called (often unrealistic) ideas here and there, they don't know the skills set they need and/or have never had any regular customer before starting their "online journey" abroad, running our of money and going back home, without having learned the 3 main pillars of the digital nomad concept: 1) Know yourself (what you want to do), 2) make sure you've got the right skills and 3) secure a few regular customers before leaving your own country. The Smart visa certainly won't apply to those people.

Edited May 3, 2021 by HelloWelcome77

[BadSpottedDog]

16 hours ago, edwardandtubs said:

Great. Now how do I become a digital nomad?

Learn some digital skills and market your services online 

[HelloWelcome77]

17 hours ago, madmen said:

Bangkok pre pandemic was nearly always winning travel awards and for good reason. Prefect big city base with one of the world's best connected airport hubs. 

I know that it's a matter of preference and lifestyle, but if I were a digital nomad here in Thailand, I'd certainly not chose Bangkok as a base, but rather a nice place by the sea, such as the Cha Am/Hua Hin surroundings, some island, or a quiet place in the northern mountains (and so on... one of the main advantages being the ability to move when getting tired of a place) within a short distance to, but not IN the city. Why would you bother with crazy traffic jams, pollution, crowds and expensive life (compared to the rest of the country), as a lot of us would back home, when you've got the opportunity to work from anywhere you want and (some kind of) "paradise" is at your door step?

[digibum]

12 hours ago, sdweller said:

Still some people on this forum who are upset they just can't seem to figure out how to make $ online... so they just say it's a fallacy lol! ????.  Well it's not I'm afraid....

 

I was making money online and traveling as far back as the early 2000s before people called it being a digital nomad. 

 

The problem is, we used to just call it, "working online" or "running a business online" 

 

When it became trendy and got the cool name, "digital nomad," many people with no online skills saw this as a way out of their boring office jobs.  Then it became not a description of how one works but it's now become a "lifestyle."

 

Go check out the digital nomad sub on Reddit.  Over a million people follow that sub and there is now an approved lifestyle that you have to fit into or you're not really a digital nomad. 

 

For instance, if you settle down in one place, you become an expat and are no longer considered a digital nomad.  If you make too much money and you can afford nice accommodations, you're no longer a digital nomad, because part of the "lifestyle" is hostels and cheap AirBnBs.  

 

When people like myself mock digital nomads, this is who we're mocking. 

 

I don't think people doubt that people can make money online. 

[digibum]

12 hours ago, Poet said:

Most people working online earn significantly more than the average wage in the West. That is a simple reality of how our economic system rewards people who own their own businesses, or who have established themselves as reliable providers of information work (coding, writing, marketing, video-editing, analysis, trading etc).

 

Can you cite a source for that?  I've seen two different digital nomad surveys over the years and on both surveys the vast majority earn less than $3000 a month.  That is not significantly more than the average wage in the West. 

 

And the problem with your statement is that a large number of digital nomads disagree with it.  Go to a digital nomad forum and tell them that they can get a digital nomad visa in Thailand if they make a minimum of $6,000 USD a month.  For sure 90% of them will tell you that that is unrealistic and that digital nomads don't make that kind of money.  That's coming from digital nomads and I've seen those very exact conversations.  

 

I think you're misinterpreting what some people are saying.  Remote workers and people that have an online business are plentiful and often make a good living. 

 

Digital nomads was once a description of those people but then quickly morphed into a lifestyle which centers around extreme frugality and flexing on social media. 

 

Another way to think about it is that many successful people follow Gary V.  But vast majority of the people that follow Gary V are simply wantrepreneurs.  They will never start a real business.  They crave the status of being an entrepreneur but they only want to do the cool parts

 

Working online and traveling is certainly doable and many people make a good living at it.  However, there are way more digital nomads that are doing Upwork gigs and making $1,000 a month or making no money at all and simply burning through their life savings while they pretend to be a successful online business owner on social media. 

 

That's just the numbers.  Like I said, go on digital nomad Facebook groups, go check out the Reddit digital nomad sub, it's mostly wannabes. 

 

12 hours ago, Poet said:

My observation is that any native English-speaker of reasonable intelligence and the ability to write clearly (ability to communicate professionally) can easily make over $100 an hour remotely if they are willing to sit down for three months are learn a specific skill for which there is demand. I have seen dozens of friends here in Thailand achieve this.

 

This is partially a lie.  A typically freelancer or consultant uses the following formula:  260 days x 8 hours per day = 2080 billable hours in a year

 

Are you trying to say that a native English-speaker of reasonable intelligence and the ability to communicate professionally can earn $208,000 per year after learning a skill that only takes 3 months to master?  LOL. 

 

Why do we even have universities?  LOL. 

 

What you probably mean is that someone can charge $100 an hour but maybe can only average 1 or 2 billable hours a day.  The way you phrased that is very deceptive. 

 

Saying that you can earn an income that would put you in the top 1% of wage earners with only three months of training is, come on, pretty far fetched. 

 

Even a mobile app developer with only some 3-month bootcamp and no previous programming skills would be hard pressed to average $100 an hour.  I can find people in India and Pakistan willing to work for 1/2 - 3/4 that rate.  Hell, I can find experienced devs in the US for a fraction of that. 

 

I have over 30 years experience in tech, and I know hundreds of freelance software engineers with decades of experience, and the vast majority don't pull $200K a year.  Some do.  Usually people with a very niche expertise like cryptography or people with Google or Facebook on their resume.  

 

 

[chrisbangkok]

21 hours ago, SymS said:

Taxes can be quite low if you take all available deductions.
 

Oh. Are you asking about those who work without work permit? Well, they don't pay taxes in Thailand...

You can't work in Thailand without a work permit and i don't think you can get a wp to be a digital nomad ? Another example of the difficult visa system in Thailand .

[digibum]

1 minute ago, chrisbangkok said:

You can't work in Thailand without a work permit and i don't think you can get a wp to be a digital nomad ? Another example of the difficult visa system in Thailand .

 

Thai authorities don't care about digital nomads.  They raided some coworking space up in Chiang Mai a few years back because they thought the people were working for the coworking space.  But once it was cleared up that they were working online, they were all released.  An interview with the head of immigration for CM later said that they don't have any problems with people working online. 

 

As far as I know, there's never been a deportation or charges brought against a digital nomad for illegally working in Thailand.  Would love to be educated if this is not correct. 

 

The whole, working online is illegal thing is something old geezers that can barely peck out a message on their keyboards say on TVF whenever anybody mentions working online.  Then younger people read that and they repeat it until it becomes an urban legend. 

 

The law itself is vague as there is no actual definition of what constitutes work.  But most laws in Thailand are vague so they can be broadly interpreted at the whim of whoever is in charge.  You have to look at how they've been enforced.  And, like I said, I'm unaware of a single person being deported for working illegally as a digital nomad in over 20 years. 

 

[Poet]

2 minutes ago, digibum said:

Can you cite a source for that?

No. I gave my reasoning right in the paragraph you quoted. Under capitalism, people who own successful businesses, and freelancers with in-demand expertise, make more than the average wage.
 

3 minutes ago, digibum said:

And the problem with your statement is that a large number of digital nomads disagree with it.  Go to a digital nomad forum and tell them that they can get a digital nomad visa in Thailand if they make a minimum of $6,000 USD a month.  For sure 90% of them will tell you that that is unrealistic and that digital nomads don't make that kind of money.  That's coming from digital nomads and I've seen those very exact conversations.

Your definition of digital nomad is different from mine and, again, I addressed this in my post.

The sub-grouping of online digital workers who frequent "digital nomad forums" are disproportionately people who are new to the concept, are trying to find their feet, and are spending time in forums because they still need basic guidance, or they are YouTubers or hucksters trying to sell guides and courses on "How to be a Digital Nomad".

The vast majority of online workers are not children desperately scrambling for an identity. They are people who, as I said, would rather earn a few hundred dollars than waste their afternoon on a forum. They certainly have no interest in a "digital nomad visa" because they realise it would do absolutely nothing to help them.

 

31 minutes ago, digibum said:

I think you're misinterpreting what some people are saying.  Remote workers and people that have an online business are plentiful and often make a good living.
 

Digital nomads was once a description of those people but then quickly morphed into a lifestyle which centers around extreme frugality and flexing on social media. 

I am misintrepeting nothing. You are redefining "digital nomads" based on the caricatures latched onto by people who actually hate digital nomads, and the noisy activities of people who think they are part of a movement or community, but are all essentially "marketing experts" with no actual skills.

Nothing "morphed into a lifestyle". The definition of digital nomads still covers the broad spectrum of people who work digitally while living in different places, and it most certainly still includes remote workers and people who have online businesses. They were doing this for decades before you stumbled upon the concept, and they are the people who will stick with it for years after all the "marketing experts" return to their parents' basement. It is outrageous that you are attempting to redefine it as, essentially, "people who earn very little money and live frugally", when the whole point was that we have built incredible incomes while retaining so much freedom.

 

35 minutes ago, digibum said:

Another way to think about it is that many successful people follow Gary V.  But vast majority of the people that follow Gary V are simply wantrepreneurs.  They will never start a real business.  They crave the status of being an entrepreneur but they only want to do the cool parts

Again, you are attending these low-level events, or watching these people on YouTube, and have developed the crazy illusion that this tiny, desperate, flailing group of hustlers somehow represent an economic shift that includes millions of people, almost all of whom earn more than them.

Gary V. Seriously?

 

52 minutes ago, digibum said:

This is partially a lie. 

<deleted> you too.
 

52 minutes ago, digibum said:

A typically freelancer or consultant uses the following formula:  260 days x 8 hours per day = 2080 billable hours in a year

That is not how any of us work.

 

53 minutes ago, digibum said:

Are you trying to say that a native English-speaker of reasonable intelligence and the ability to communicate professionally can earn $208,000 per year after learning a skill that only takes 3 months to master?  LOL. 

If he was crazy enough to want to spend 8 hours a day coding, sure, but who the Hell would do that? The whole point is that we don't have to work office hours, we get to actually enjoy our lives before we retire.

Try hiring a competent, non-Indian coder for less than $100 an hour.

 

56 minutes ago, digibum said:

Why do we even have universities?  LOL. 

Is this really the first time you have stumbled upon the concept that university education might not actually be the best investment of time and money?

LOL indeed.
 

57 minutes ago, digibum said:

What you probably mean is that someone can charge $100 an hour but maybe can only average 1 or 2 billable hours a day.  The way you phrased that is very deceptive. 

Again, <deleted> you. I said that people can receive good money for whatever hours they wish to sell by focusing on developing skills that people wish to pay for. You are the one doing crazy math about people working X hours per day. That was entirely happening in your brain, not mine. How dare you go around projecting that onto me and, then, tell me that I am being deceptive!

 

1 hour ago, digibum said:

Saying that you can earn an income that would put you in the top 1% of wage earners with only three months of training is, come on, pretty far fetched. 

If you think that $100 is what the top 1% of wage earners make, you have never hired a lawyer, a doctor, an architect, or any professional. You also have no idea what middle-management and up are earning in corporations.

 

1 hour ago, digibum said:

I can find people in India and Pakistan willing to work for 1/2 - 3/4 that rate.

So, your perspective mainly comes from rolling around in the gutter, paying peanuts and getting monkeys.

 

1 hour ago, digibum said:

Hell, I can find experienced devs in the US for a fraction of that. 

It no longer makes any difference where a coder is located if he is skilled and can communicate well.

All of you guys who have bought into all the "digital nomad community" marketing hustle, and Gary V levels of hype wrapped around complete nonsense, you are failing to notice the fundamental shift that is happening, the sheer scale of where the digital nomad trend is going post-Covid.
 

 

[The Cipher]

Not sure if my situation qualifies me as a digital nomad not, but here's some of what attracted me to Bangkok. I'm 30 and work as an investment analyst. Normally based in Vancouver, Canada.

 

Because of Covid my firm moved to remote work in April of last year. Have been in Bangkok since December, after getting the ok from management. I flew to escape tough Covid restrictions at home, and so far it's been one of the better decisions I've made recently.

 

The absence of Covid and corresponding higher quality of life were what attracted me at the time. In general though, I think Bangkok offers fantastic value for money compared to Canada as well as a much better winter climate (obviously). It's a safe and generally easy place set up shop for remote work with a lot of the quality-of-life-amenities that many urban professionals enjoy. Although there are some unavoidable challenges as well, the trade-off seems to be more than worth it.

 

Longer term, if remote work sticks as a thing, I could easily envision myself splitting time annually between Vancouver and Bangkok (and possibly other cities as well!). I anticipate that other folks in similar situations - especially in their 20s and 30s - will make this realization as well, and I'd expect Bangkok to continue to be a popular destination.

[chrisbangkok]

3 hours ago, digibum said:

 

Thai authorities don't care about digital nomads.  They raided some coworking space up in Chiang Mai a few years back because they thought the people were working for the coworking space.  But once it was cleared up that they were working online, they were all released.  An interview with the head of immigration for CM later said that they don't have any problems with people working online. 

 

As far as I know, there's never been a deportation or charges brought against a digital nomad for illegally working in Thailand.  Would love to be educated if this is not correct. 

 

The whole, working online is illegal thing is something old geezers that can barely peck out a message on their keyboards say on TVF whenever anybody mentions working online.  Then younger people read that and they repeat it until it becomes an urban legend. 

 

The law itself is vague as there is no actual definition of what constitutes work.  But most laws in Thailand are vague so they can be broadly interpreted at the whim of whoever is in charge.  You have to look at how they've been enforced.  And, like I said, I'm unaware of a single person being deported for working illegally as a digital nomad in over 20 years. 

 

Interesting assessment , how about a remote worker earning a salary overseas and paying tax overseas ? On a retirement or marriage visa which specifically states no work permitted ? I'm really making a point that in the changing world of working perhaps an opportunity to re assess visa types and also potentially earn some tax in Thai too . 

Being at the whim of whoevers in charge is vague , risky and unprofessional and would detract a potential good source of revenue in spend and taxation . 

[The Cipher]

Quote

how about a remote worker earning a salary overseas and paying tax overseas ?

 

I'm already getting heavily taxed in my country of employment (and I bet the tax burden will go even higher soon) so it would definitely be a big negative if I were working remotely in Thailand or another country and they decided to tax me too. I think many others would feel similarly and it might end up being partially a game of regulatory arbitrage for prospective remote workers looking at choosing a location.

 

If Thailand and <home country> worked something out so that the net result in taxes paid

was the same, then sure. But otherwise the benefit to the Thai economy from the injection of 'digital nomad' spending into the economy ought to be enough.

[digibum]

1 hour ago, chrisbangkok said:

Interesting assessment , how about a remote worker earning a salary overseas and paying tax overseas ? On a retirement or marriage visa which specifically states no work permitted ? I'm really making a point that in the changing world of working perhaps an opportunity to re assess visa types and also potentially earn some tax in Thai too . 

Being at the whim of whoevers in charge is vague , risky and unprofessional and would detract a potential good source of revenue in spend and taxation . 

 

I'm not sure when vague, risky, and unprofessional has ever been a deterrent in Thailand ????

 

I fully support upgrading the immigration and labor laws to reflect today's digital realities. 

 

However, it does raise some issues.  How do you tell the difference between a retiree who is earning income from investments which he's paying taxes on in the country his investments are in, and a 30 year old doing web design work making a living?  That gets a little tricky and I don't think Thai immigration wants to get into trying to figure out everyone's financial situation any more than they already do. 

 

I'm actually not a fan of the smart visa as a way to attract digital nomads.  I think it requires people to anchor themselves to Thailand a little too strongly when they might only want to stay here a year or two. It's good for other purposes, but I don't like it for digital nomads.  

 

I am a fan of a fairly high financial bar to keep people from abusing it as a way to live in Thailand long-term on little or no real income. 

 

Like the 5-year Thai Elite card costs 600,000 baht which works out to 120,000 baht per year.  Pricing a digital nomad visa at 150,000 per year with no taxes could be attractive to a lot of people.  Many digital nomads are avoiding taxes by never staying in any one place long enough to be considered a tax resident but would stay longer if they could get a longer visa.  Even Americans would be able to take advantage of the Foreign Earned Income Tax Exemption which exempts the first $110,000 from taxes so the 150,000 baht would be a bargain. 

 

So, 150,000 baht per year for a visa would 10% of 1.5 million baht ($48,000 USD) or about 125,000 baht per month.  That's an attractive tax rate and only gets better the more you earn.  It's also large enough of a sum that it will deter people who aren't earning very much.  

 

And maybe you can get that visa something like three times in any five year period (or maybe lifetime) to keep people from using Thailand as a tax haven.  After they use up their max number of renewals they could register a Thai online business and pay a progressive tax rate. 

[digibum]

39 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

 

I'm already getting heavily taxed in my country of employment (and I bet the tax burden will go even higher soon) so it would definitely be a big negative if I were working remotely in Thailand or another country and they decided to tax me too. I think many others would feel similarly and it might end up being partially a game of regulatory arbitrage for prospective remote workers looking at choosing a location.

 

If Thailand and <home country> worked something out so that the net result in taxes paid

was the same, then sure. But otherwise the benefit to the Thai economy from the injection of 'digital nomad' spending into the economy ought to be enough.

 

What country? 

 

Most countries only tax you on income where you earn it.  The US is the only country (actually, there's another one but I forget who) that taxes you regardless of where you reside. 

 

However, even in America, the first $110,000 is exempt from taxes even if your employer is American IF you are a bonafide resident of another country.  That means you either have to have legal residency (i.e. permanent residency) or you spend something like 335 days a year outside of the US.  

[digibum]

3 hours ago, The Cipher said:

Longer term, if remote work sticks as a thing, I could easily envision myself splitting time annually between Vancouver and Bangkok (and possibly other cities as well!). I anticipate that other folks in similar situations - especially in their 20s and 30s - will make this realization as well, and I'd expect Bangkok to continue to be a popular destination.

 

I doubt that anytime in the immediate future any countries are going to allow you to be a part-time tax resident.  See this site:

 

https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/international-non-residents/information-been-moved/determining-your-residency-status.html

 

It's just too complex for a bunch of countries to figure out where you were when you earned what money and then come up with some reciprocal taxing arrangement.  What about an annual bonus?  Was it earned in the month given or was it earned throughout the year? 

 

Typically you have one tax residence in any given tax year. 

 

Also, I think post-Covid a lot of people who have been working remotely from other countries are going to be in for a rude awakening at some point.  Your employer may owe taxes in Thailand if you are working here and they have any operations whatsoever in Thailand. 

 

There are lots of digital nomads who already getting called home once the legal team finds out what's going on.  There's a lot of tricky tax issues for your employer and they need to make sure they're not exposing themselves to potential tax liabilities. 

 

The digital nomad sub on Reddit is full of people asking about using a VPN to hide their location from their employers because they've already been told they have to remain in the country.  Most of those people will likely eventually get caught and be terminated.  VPNs are only a band aid on hiding our location.

[The Cipher]

1 hour ago, digibum said:

What country? 

 

I'm employed in Canada and file my taxes there. Cleared the idea of spending some time in Thailand with management before flying over here. 

 

Quote

It's just too complex for a bunch of countries to figure out where you were when you earned what money and then come up with some reciprocal taxing arrangement.  What about an annual bonus?  Was it earned in the month given or was it earned throughout the year? 

 

I also think it's unlikely that we see global cooperating this issue of personal tax anytime

soon. My comment was more in response to a previous comment about how Thailand may be missing out on the opportunity to earn revenue from digital nomads and remote workers. I, and I believe others as well, would chafe at being taxed once at home and then again in another country. I believe that Thailand attempting to enforce that hypothetical tax would make the country significantly less attractive for location independent workers.

 

Quote

Also, I think post-Covid a lot of people who have been working remotely from other countries are going to be in for a rude awakening at some point.  Your employer may owe taxes in Thailand if you are working here and they have any operations whatsoever in Thailand. 

 

There are lots of digital nomads who already getting called home once the legal team finds out what's going on.  There's a lot of tricky tax issues for your employer and they need to make sure they're not exposing themselves to potential tax liabilities. 

 

Now that you've mentioned this, I'm a little curious. If someone were to be a remote worker (legally employed overseas) or a true independent digital nomad, and if they were in Thailand on any visa other than a work-permit and earning income outside of Thailand, do the Thai authorities make any attempt to track this at all?

 

And is it even illegal, since income is not actually being earned in Thailand and those earnings really have nothing to do with Thailand at all, other that that the earner is physically located there for part of the year?

[digibum]

21 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

I, and I believe others as well, would chafe at being taxed once at home and then again in another country. I believe that Thailand attempting to enforce that hypothetical tax would make the country significantly less attractive for location independent workers.

 

But Thailand wouldn't be doing that.  It isn't Thailand or any other country's job to sort that out.  They just need to put a deal on the table, become a tax resident, pay taxes here, here's your visa. 

 

Thai immigration can barely handle verifying monthly income for retirees and married people, it's highly doubtful they're going to get involved in taxes even if that means their visa wouldn't be a great fit for everyone. 

 

Their target demographic would likely be people that have no tax residence anywhere else and want to live in Thailand and pay taxes in Thailand. 

 

36 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

Now that you've mentioned this, I'm a little curious. If someone were to be a remote worker (legally employed overseas) or a true independent digital nomad, and if they were in Thailand on any visa other than a work-permit and earning income outside of Thailand, do the Thai authorities make any attempt to track this at all?

 

Despite what some people say, AFAIK nobody has ever been deported for that.  If you are working online, and your business has nothing to do with Thailand or Thai people, and the money is hitting a bank account outside of Thailand, the Thai government has shown zero interest in going after that. 

 

Even if they did want to go after it, it would be an extremely difficult case to prosecute in terms of collecting evidence and with very little reward (deportation). 

 

The problem most people have is a visa that allows them to live in Thailand. 

 

There are tons of people that have long-term visas that work online.  Retirees, married people, Elite, etc.  The problem for most digital nomads is none of those categories apply to them. 

 

[expatjustice]

On 5/3/2021 at 4:28 PM, SymS said:

Taxes can be quite low if you take all available deductions.
 

Oh. Are you asking about those who work without work permit? Well, they don't pay taxes in Thailand...

 

Why would you pay taxes on money which you are earning outside Thailand from some online business where the majority of your customers aren't Thai? 

 

And furthermore, why would you need a work permit to do a work unrelated to Thailand, and which doesn't even take place in Thailand; it takes place in the internet. 

 

And no, I am not talking about a backpacker posting rubbish on social media. 

 

Some teach English to Chinese kids online, others sell software, others sell digital products, none of which takes place in Thailand. Thailand is just the place they live; not the place they work.

[fdsa]

1 hour ago, expatjustice said:

And furthermore, why would you need a work permit to do a work unrelated to Thailand, and which doesn't even take place in Thailand; it takes place in the internet. 

because it's $2-3k/year cheaper than the Elite visa and allows to work in Thailand if you'll find local clients.

you are NOT allowed to work in Thailand if you buy Elite visa.

Edited May 4, 2021 by fdsa

[expatjustice]

1 hour ago, fdsa said:

because it's $2-3k/year cheaper than the Elite visa and allows to work in Thailand if you'll find local clients.

you are NOT allowed to work in Thailand if you buy Elite visa.

 

Again, a digital nomad shouldn't be thinking of doing any physical work in Thailand. In that case it is not a digital nomad anymore; rather an alien working illegally. (Or if he has a work permit, then it is someone working in Thailand)

 

If you are a true digital nomad, there is no reason whatsoever on earth why you would need a work permit. And furthermore if you are thinking of staying in Thailand for 5 years at least. Elite Visa is the way to go, hassle free and you don't have to deal with dodgy agents and companies to get your work permit which at some point may or may not screw you.

 

$2-3k is peanuts really, compared with the problems getting a work permit which you don't need in a dodgy way may bring...

Edited May 4, 2021 by expatjustice

[SymS]

19 hours ago, chrisbangkok said:

You can't work in Thailand without a work permit and i don't think you can get a wp to be a digital nomad ? Another example of the difficult visa system in Thailand .

You can work through companies like Iglu or VSI Group. This is a bit costly. I pay around 200,000 Baht per year for "the privilege". But considering how low taxes can legally be made to be that may still be worth it depending on your situation.

[SymS]

11 hours ago, expatjustice said:

 

Why would you pay taxes on money which you are earning outside Thailand from some online business where the majority of your customers aren't Thai? 

 

And furthermore, why would you need a work permit to do a work unrelated to Thailand, and which doesn't even take place in Thailand; it takes place in the internet. 

 

And no, I am not talking about a backpacker posting rubbish on social media. 

 

Some teach English to Chinese kids online, others sell software, others sell digital products, none of which takes place in Thailand. Thailand is just the place they live; not the place they work.

Since people are physically present in Thailand, they do work in Thailand. The "Internet" is not a country.
If we follow this reasoning of "I don't need a work permit or pay taxes in Thailand because my customers are overseas", then we could also say "why would I need to pay tax in XXX country, because I don't live there".  Then no need to pay taxes anywhere. Perfect!

[fdsa]

12 hours ago, expatjustice said:

Again, a digital nomad shouldn't be thinking of doing any physical work in Thailand. In that case it is not a digital nomad anymore; rather an alien working illegally. (Or if he has a work permit, then it is someone working in Thailand)

if you work online and have a customer = Thai citizen or a company registered in Thailand, then you are working illegally.

Elite visa will not make it legal as it is a permit to stay in the kingdom, not a permit to have Thai customers.

[expatjustice]

3 hours ago, SymS said:

Since people are physically present in Thailand, they do work in Thailand. The "Internet" is not a country.
If we follow this reasoning of "I don't need a work permit or pay taxes in Thailand because my customers are overseas", then we could also say "why would I need to pay tax in XXX country, because I don't live there".  Then no need to pay taxes anywhere. Perfect!

You are forgetting that according to Thailand’s tax law, nobody needs to pay taxes for money they earned overseas. (So long as you bring the money into the Thailand one calendar year later after you earned it).

Edited May 5, 2021 by expatjustice

[expatjustice]

15 minutes ago, fdsa said:

if you work online and have a customer = Thai citizen or a company registered in Thailand, then you are working illegally.

Elite visa will not make it legal as it is a permit to stay in the kingdom, not a permit to have Thai customers.

Well once again, if you are working online for a Thai employer only, then you are once again not a digital nomad. At best you are just “working from home for a Thai company”.  Which is indeed ilegal.
 

If you have let’s say an online shop, where you sell an Antivirus software which you developed. And you have registered a company in Panama, which is the one that invoices your customers and also the payment gateway on your website is under this company’s name and the customers money go to an account under this company’s name…. Even if you have some Thai nationals customers buying in your website, this will never count as working in Thailand. The authorities don’t even care.
 

You seem to be confusing the term digital nomad with working from home with a computer for someone else. They are very different things.

Edited May 5, 2021 by expatjustice

[SymS]

1 hour ago, expatjustice said:

You are forgetting that according to Thailand’s tax law, nobody needs to pay taxes for money they earned overseas. (So long as you bring the money into the Thailand one calendar year later after you earned it).

Except the Thai authorities could determine the tax was earned in Thailand. To be honest, they'd probably not find out. They can't even seem to manage to find out when their own citizen don't pay taxes when getting paid to a local account from oversea customers.

[expatjustice]

8 minutes ago, SymS said:

Except the Thai authorities could determine the tax was earned in Thailand. To be honest, they'd probably not find out. They can't even seem to manage to find out when their own citizen don't pay taxes when getting paid to a local account from oversea customers.

That on one hand.
 

And on the other hand. If I have a let’s say online shop where I sell some software for example, and I use a foreign company to invoice my customers. Legally that money is earned outside of Thailand, even if I myself live in Thailand. That’s where it all ends. 
 

I can be employed by a company which I own myself in Panama, Hong Kong, Gibraltar,…. and still live in Thailand and do online work for my own overseas company without needing a work permit in Thailand and it won’t be illegal either. 
 

And about taxes, so long as you bring into Thailand your overseas income from at least the previous year, you pay 0. 
 

Bottom line is, Thailand is a paradise for true digital nomads (and by this I mean people who have online business and that their client base is not only Thais). I have yet to hear of any foreigner having been deported from Thailand for doing this. And I doubt I ever will. 
 

The most difficult part of being a digital nomad in Thailand, I would say it is to get a visa to live here on the short term, those digital nomads that only want to stay 1-2 years. For longer periods Elite Visa works wonders.

Edited May 5, 2021 by expatjustice

[chrisbangkok]

5 hours ago, SymS said:

You can work through companies like Iglu or VSI Group. This is a bit costly. I pay around 200,000 Baht per year for "the privilege". But considering how low taxes can legally be made to be that may still be worth it depending on your situation.

Indeed not true nomad though is it rather feathering nests for visa     " manipulators " . I know it suits some and is an option of course.

The point is if they address this with an accesible visa coupled with dual taxation agreements it would be both fully legal and generate clean revenue too and not just in tax . Probably a bit to ahead for the current regime however but maybe one day eh ?

[The Cipher]

48 minutes ago, expatjustice said:

If you have let’s say an online shop, where you sell an Antivirus software which you developed. And you have registered a company in Panama, which is the one that invoices your customers and also the payment gateway on your website is under this company’s name and the customers money go to an account under this company’s name…. Even if you have some Thai nationals customers buying in your website, this will never count as working in Thailand. The authorities don’t even care.

---

If I have a let’s say online shop where I sell some software for example, and I use a foreign company to invoice my customers. Legally that money is earned outside of Thailand, even if I myself live in Thailand. That’s where it all ends. 

 

So just to make sure that I am understanding this correctly - let's say that I incorporate a business in the USA and create an online store. If I buy advertisements in the USA and Thailand, and sell to both American and Thai customers, I would pay taxes on all of the sales (even those made to Thai residents) to the US gov and none to the Thai gov?