Farang Teaching Basic Thai To New Learners

[NaiGreg]

Those who have tried to learn Thai from their Thai "faen" or friends will understand that there are limits to what can be achived in that system.

So, what about farang teaching basic Thai to farang new learners? Good idea or not?

This is not a new idea ... consider the David Smyth and Higbe books. Only a farang who has already experienced the struggles and nuances of learning Thai can relate to the new learner. There a number of [enthusiastic] farang contributors to this forum who would undoubtably be successful Thai language teachers.

Of course at a higher level, the student needs the insights (and correct pronounciation) of a native speaker.

-NG

[meadish_sweetball]

Most university programs of Thai in the west offer instruction by both native Thai speakers as well as natives of the country where the university is located.

I think it is the best way - foreign instructors can draw from their own learning experiences which enables them to explain things easier than Thais who have never had to learn like a foreigner - also, foreigners tend to be better at finding more exact translations of Thai expressions into their language.

On the other hand, native Thai instructors have the the sense of what is the most natural way of saying something in their language, as well as an understanding of cultural issues, something which few foreigners ever gain completely. Educated native speakers also have a sense of the right words and formulations to use, i.e. which style is appropriate.

So in short, yes, I think there is a place for foreigners in the early stages of learning.

[sabaijai]

My first Thai language instructors were Thais, with the Peace Corps here in Thailand. I worked with them six hours a day, six days a week for three months, with a one-month refresher intensive with the same instructors a year later. A year and a half after that I studied Thai intensively again at an American university with an American professor with a PhD in Thai from SOAS. I learned more in the first 10-week course I took with him then in the whole year and a half I'd initially spent in Thailand. On the other hand I wasn't exactly a beginner by that time.

I continued with the American professor, and with visiting Thai lecturers from Thailand on the odd occasion, for two years, focussing mainly on newspaper translation and classic Thai lit. By that time my Thai was far enough along that I feel I could have made more progress with native instructors.

I've taught beginning Thai to foreigners myself. Where it helps is with explaining structures quickly, and being able to present those explanations from a non-Thai perspective so that a non-Thai can understand them. I think foreigners can even help explain Thai pronunciation a bit more clearly in certain instances.

As Mead says, where a native instructor usually betters a non-native instructor is in natural phrasing. However at beginning levels a highly proficient (or 'fluent' if you will) non-native should have mastered natural phrasing for virtually all basic Thai.

So in summary I think an instructor from your mother-tongue culture can be very helpful in the beginning. There eventually comes a point, though, where you can't progress as quickly with a non-native as with a native.

One caveat, it also depends on what teaching methodology is involved. If you were learning via The Silent Way, for example, or even the Natural Approach, then there would be little or no advantage to using a non-native instructor.

[Juzrelax]

I think it's a good idea. I need to learn the language so I would be keen on that.

[soundman]

My first Thai language instructors were Thais, with the Peace Corps here in Thailand. I worked with them six hours a day, six days a week for three months, with a one-month refresher intensive with the same instructors a year later. A year and a half after that I studied Thai intensively again at an American university with an American professor with a PhD in Thai from SOAS. I learned more in the first 10-week course I took with him then in the whole year and a half I'd initially spent in Thailand. On the other hand I wasn't exactly a beginner by that time.

I continued with the American professor, and with visiting Thai lecturers from Thailand on the odd occasion, for two years, focussing mainly on newspaper translation and classic Thai lit. By that time my Thai was far enough along that I feel I could have made more progress with native instructors.

I've taught beginning Thai to foreigners myself. Where it helps is with explaining structures quickly, and being able to present those explanations from a non-Thai perspective so that a non-Thai can understand them. I think foreigners can even help explain Thai pronunciation a bit more clearly in certain instances.

As Mead says, where a native instructor usually betters a non-native instructor is in natural phrasing. However at beginning levels a highly proficient (or 'fluent' if you will) non-native should have mastered natural phrasing for virtually all basic Thai.

So in summary I think an instructor from your mother-tongue culture can be very helpful in the beginning. There eventually comes a point, though, where you can't progress as quickly with a non-native as with a native.

One caveat, it also depends on what teaching methodology is involved. If you were learning via The Silent Way, for example, or even the Natural Approach, then there would be little or no advantage to using a non-native instructor.

I wish I had this advice six years ago.

Makes good sense in hindsight, whereas I have had to blunder my way through, learning that direct translation (or lack of) made no sense whatsoever. Wish I could have had explanations in the beginning.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[withnail]

I think it's a great idea but finding a farang who's Thai is good enough that's capable and willing to do it is another story. I think that a good method would be to simultaniously learn conversation with a native speaker and grammar with a fluent foreigner.

You need total immersion to really get you speaking but there are numerous things that even experienced Thai teachers find difficult to explain. A good example would be the use of particles in Thai. Even when I've asked professional Thai teachers to explain they very often say ไม่มีความหมาย

To be fair to them it must be fairly difficult to teach Thai as a foreign language as their language is rarely analysed by them in such a manner. As a teacher of English I know that we have it easier as there are endless numbers of courses, course books and grammars that we can rely on to tell us what to teach and how.

[mangkorn]

I think it's a great idea but finding a farang who's Thai is good enough that's capable and willing to do it is another story. I think that a good method would be to simultaniously learn conversation with a native speaker and grammar with a fluent foreigner.

You need total immersion to really get you speaking but there are numerous things that even experienced Thai teachers find difficult to explain. A good example would be the use of particles in Thai. Even when I've asked professional Thai teachers to explain they very often say ?????????????

To be fair to them it must be fairly difficult to teach Thai as a foreign language as their language is rarely analysed by them in such a manner. As a teacher of English I know that we have it easier as there are endless numbers of courses, course books and grammars that we can rely on to tell us what to teach and how.

A farang whose Thai is good enough and capable and willing to do it, possibly, but not at the fee that Thai language teachers charge.

On the last point, I'm sure that if you asked a native English speaker about the particulars of grammar, he or she would be completely incapable of explaining even the simplest points. What is the imperfect tense, and how is it different than the perfect tense? (blank stares...) What is the difference between an adjective and an adverb? (desperately hoping for the telephone to ring...) Or, why is the plural of mouse mice, but the plural of moose is moose? (looking for the nearest exit...)

Oh, well, you get the idea.

Edited May 26, 2007 by mangkorn

[jdinasia]

My personal take on this .... <and note ... MY PERSONAL take>

Learning with too many explanations leads to thinking too much and speaking too little.

Learn the vocabulary as you learn the basic and go on ... repeat as needed ... eventually you just quit THINKING about it and start doing it

[Mr_Dave]

So, what about farang teaching basic Thai to farang new learners? Good idea or not?

Superb idea.

I wish I'd had that when I started.

After three years of studying Thai here in Bangkok, I've had to reverse-engineer the language with my Thai teacher, starting from scratch.

There are no books I've found.

Yes, on the Internet there are bits and pieces scattered around on many good web sites, but no all-in-one source.

My teacher can, of course, read, write, speak, and understand, but he can not explain very well.

Thais do some things very well, but explaining their own language is not one of them.

So we worked together: his Thai experience and my farang engineering.

I made it a game for my teacher: you old-Thai-hands understand the importance of that.

But it would have saved a lot of time and frustration to have a farang explain to me from the start.

Plus, Thais don't do frustration very well -- I've learned to be very "jai-yen-yen" with asking questions of my teacher.

But, now, I sometimes explain Thai language to my Thai acquaintances.

They are amazed when I say something like, "haw-hip" with final "gaw-gai" and no "wanna-yuuk" must be "siang-eck" = low tone.

They can say it correctly, but they can't explain it.

I can say it, and I can explain why.

But it took a lot of work, time, and, yes, money, getting to this level of understanding.

Total immersion is total nonsense.

Total immersion in something you don't understand is like total immersion in deep water -- you'll drown.

Show me someone who has learned only by total immersion, and I'll show you someone who can't speak or read very well.

Oh, sure, their wife or "faen" can understand when they want another beer, but watch them try to ask directions on the street.

What is far, far, better is slow, methodical, explanation and practice: first the basics, then, gradually, more complex grammar and vocabulary.

So, for a farang teaching the basics to new learners, yes, I think that's the ideal way.

For higher levels, sure, must have a Thai native-speaker, of course, but for the new learner, get a farang who already knows.

Would I be willing to teach basic Thai to new learners?

Sure would.

I've taught many things in my life:

Every time I teach something to somebody else, I learn a vast amount myself.

The best way to learn something is to try to teach it to someone else.

I'm not advertising any teaching service, but mutual-assistance, yes, sure.

There couldn't be any fees for that, because both sides gain and learn, just at different levels.

So if somebody wants to learn the alphabet (ax-sorn and sa-ra) and the basic tone rules, yes, I'd certainly be willing to help.

I'm not promising anything, just suggesting that I'm open to the possibility.

To discuss this further, you are welcome to send email to me.

I am in Bangkok - Sukhumvit area.

[jdinasia]

Total immersion is total nonsense.

Total immersion in something you don't understand is like total immersion in deep water -- you'll drown.

Show me someone who has learned only by total immersion, and I'll show you someone who can't speak or read very well.

Oh, sure, their wife or "faen" can understand when they want another beer, but watch them try to ask directions on the street.

What is far, far, better is slow, methodical, explanation and practice: first the basics, then, gradually, more complex grammar and vocabulary.

So if somebody wants to learn the alphabet (ax-sorn and sa-ra) and the basic tone rules,

Total immersion seems to be the best way for the largest number of people to learn. It is the way Thai is taught at the <arguably I guess> best school in Thailand for rapid advancement to fluency. <Chulalongkorn Uni> Also how it is taught in most other schools. It is NOT the only way to learn and likely not the best way for some people

BTW ... I thought the alphabet was composed of payanchana and sara

[jackmuu]

I think total immersion is OK for the kiddies but for adults, not satisfactory.

No reason at all why a suitably qualified foreigner could not teach Thai.

Of most of the languages I ever studied, I found Thai to be one of the simplest, yet another reason why I am always amazed at the amount of foreigners living here that don't learn what is quite a fun language.

[isaanbrit]

I think that it's best to learn with a ferang but practice with Thais.

If a ferang understands a particular word, they can explain it in English in a way that Thai people cant. I have only just managed to find a way of explaining the word "na". People always ask and it is diffuclt to explain. Thai people have no chance, the best I've heard is "it's just a polite article, which it isnt. It has a use.

In the early stages I learnt far more Thai from ferangs than from Thai people.

I think, also, that Thai kids are much better off learning English with Thais but they need to practice it with ferangs I beleive that ferang teachers are esential in Thai schools but only so that the kids have someone to pratice their English with and give fun exciting classes that make them realise that English is Fun.

But I think Thai kids that learn English only with ferangs wouldnt move as quickly as those who learn with the thai ferang mix (except those who learn bilingually, thats differnet!)

[withnail]

I completely disagree with the idea about Thai kids learning English with Thais, it is because of this that Thai adults' English is so bad. If you mean with a Thai who is fluent in English then fine but in my experience this counts for about one percent of Thai English teachers.

Looking at it the other way round an intermediate speaker of Thai (much like myself, I guess) could offer quite a lot of help to a beginner because with learning Thai when we say beginner we mean complete beginner. In this case you could assume that they know nothing and only teach language from a book which you could therefore take to be correct.

I could and have in the past helped foreigners learn certain aspects of Thai which a Thai person was having great difficulty explaining to them. The problem though, as Meadish pointed out earlier, is that there comes a point very quickly when a student will ask 'What's the best way to say this?' Here you really need a native speaker to give the most natural answer. Even when referring to such experts as David Smyth it is important to bear in mind that Thai people proof read their books.

Also, to the suggestion that children practise with a native speaker but learn with a Thai. You are assuming that a Thai student of English has the opportunity to practise outside of a classroom which many of them don't. Added to this even if they did practise with a foreigner this doesn't mean that he or she will notice or correct all of the mistakes and bad habits that they pick up from their Thai teacher. There's a reason why native speakers are used from Kindergarten upwards nowadays and it's nothing to do with them being able to explain the language better.

Edited May 27, 2007 by withnail

[sabaijai]

Total immersion is total nonsense.

Total immersion in something you don't understand is like total immersion in deep water -- you'll drown.

Show me someone who has learned only by total immersion, and I'll show you someone who can't speak or read very well.

Oh, sure, their wife or "faen" can understand when they want another beer, but watch them try to ask directions on the street.

What is far, far, better is slow, methodical, explanation and practice: first the basics, then, gradually, more complex grammar and vocabulary.

So if somebody wants to learn the alphabet (ax-sorn and sa-ra) and the basic tone rules,

Total immersion seems to be the best way for the largest number of people to learn. It is the way Thai is taught at the <arguably I guess> best school in Thailand for rapid advancement to fluency. <Chulalongkorn Uni> Also how it is taught in most other schools. It is NOT the only way to learn and likely not the best way for some people

BTW ... I thought the alphabet was composed of payanchana and sara

''Total immersion seems to be the best way for the largest number of people to learn." According to whom, if I may ask? In fact the success rates as measured by present-day classroom-centred SLA research are good for early immersion (generally understood as before age 11) but not so good for adults. Adults acquire language differently than children and have a mental toolbox of meta-linguistic strategies (knowledge of grammatical rule theory, for one) that are thought to be capable of 'short-cutting' acquisition rates.

At any rate, different learners learn differently, and while immersion may work for some adults, grammar translation (as an example) may work better for others.

There are also several different kinds of total immersion, eg Silent Way, Direct Method, Notional-Functional, etc, so it's helpful to be more specific.

Everyone has different goals as well. I took John Okell's basic Burmese course in Chiang Mai and he structured the classes so that you had an hour of Burmese-only instruction with a native speaker, followed by an hour of his structural coaching in Burmese. I thought that alternation worked quite well. In 10 days everyone in the class was able to look up Burmese vocabulary in a Burmese-English dictionary, which was one of my personal objectives for taking the course. I doubt any total immersion class could accomplish that objective in the same interval.

I originally studied Thai in Silent Way (a total immersion method) classes, and while it seemed very good for pronunciation and acquisition of certain vocabulary ('one wooden red rod', for example) I was unable to read Thai (other than very easy words) even after two months. During the 3rd month the Thai instructors began teaching writing, and for that they often had to resort to English explanations (although never Roman or IPA script).

[Neeranam]

Total immersion is total nonsense.

Total immersion in something you don't understand is like total immersion in deep water -- you'll drown.

Show me someone who has learned only by total immersion, and I'll show you someone who can't speak or read very well.

Oh, sure, their wife or "faen" can understand when they want another beer, but watch them try to ask directions on the street.

What is far, far, better is slow, methodical, explanation and practice: first the basics, then, gradually, more complex grammar and vocabulary.

I pretty much learned by immersion. I've never had any classes.

I can ask for directions in the street. I can speak reasonably well and read many things. I did learn to read with the AUA book, which has English in it.

There are also several different kinds of total immersion, eg Silent Way, Direct Method, Notional-Functional, etc, so it's helpful to be more specific.

These are teaching methodologies. Since I never went to classes, how did I learn?

Edited May 27, 2007 by Neeranam

[geronimo]

So, what about farang teaching basic Thai to farang new learners? Good idea or not?

Superb idea.

I wish I'd had that when I started.

After three years of studying Thai here in Bangkok, I've had to reverse-engineer the language with my Thai teacher, starting from scratch.

There are no books I've found.

Yes, on the Internet there are bits and pieces scattered around on many good web sites, but no all-in-one source.

My teacher can, of course, read, write, speak, and understand, but he can not explain very well.

Thais do some things very well, but explaining their own language is not one of them.

So we worked together: his Thai experience and my farang engineering.

I made it a game for my teacher: you old-Thai-hands understand the importance of that.

But it would have saved a lot of time and frustration to have a farang explain to me from the start.

Plus, Thais don't do frustration very well -- I've learned to be very "jai-yen-yen" with asking questions of my teacher.

But, now, I sometimes explain Thai language to my Thai acquaintances.

They are amazed when I say something like, "haw-hip" with final "gaw-gai" and no "wanna-yuuk" must be "siang-eck" = low tone.

They can say it correctly, but they can't explain it.

I can say it, and I can explain why.

But it took a lot of work, time, and, yes, money, getting to this level of understanding.

Total immersion is total nonsense.

Total immersion in something you don't understand is like total immersion in deep water -- you'll drown.

Show me someone who has learned only by total immersion, and I'll show you someone who can't speak or read very well.

Oh, sure, their wife or "faen" can understand when they want another beer, but watch them try to ask directions on the street.

What is far, far, better is slow, methodical, explanation and practice: first the basics, then, gradually, more complex grammar and vocabulary.

So, for a farang teaching the basics to new learners, yes, I think that's the ideal way.

For higher levels, sure, must have a Thai native-speaker, of course, but for the new learner, get a farang who already knows.

Would I be willing to teach basic Thai to new learners?

Sure would.

I've taught many things in my life:

Every time I teach something to somebody else, I learn a vast amount myself.

The best way to learn something is to try to teach it to someone else.

I'm not advertising any teaching service, but mutual-assistance, yes, sure.

There couldn't be any fees for that, because both sides gain and learn, just at different levels.

So if somebody wants to learn the alphabet (ax-sorn and sa-ra) and the basic tone rules, yes, I'd certainly be willing to help.

I'm not promising anything, just suggesting that I'm open to the possibility.

To discuss this further, you are welcome to send email to me.

I am in Bangkok - Sukhumvit area.

I learned by total immersion .... been here 22 years and I can have a deep conversation about anything with anyone from a motorcycle taxi rider to a CEO

True there were mighty frustrating times but it can work, well it did for me anyway

[sabaijai]

Total immersion is total nonsense.

Total immersion in something you don't understand is like total immersion in deep water -- you'll drown.

Show me someone who has learned only by total immersion, and I'll show you someone who can't speak or read very well.

Oh, sure, their wife or "faen" can understand when they want another beer, but watch them try to ask directions on the street.

What is far, far, better is slow, methodical, explanation and practice: first the basics, then, gradually, more complex grammar and vocabulary.

I pretty much learned by immersion. I've never had any classes.

I can ask for directions in the street. I can speak reasonably well and read many things. I did learn to read with the AUA book, which has English in it.

There are also several different kinds of total immersion, eg Silent Way, Direct Method, Notional-Functional, etc, so it's helpful to be more specific.

These are teaching methodologies. Since I never went to classes, how did I learn?

Not by total immersion, unless you have your own definition of the term.

[kriswillems]

If I could choose between a farang that claims he of she is very good in Thai or a real Thai teacher, I would choose for the Thai teacher.

A farang could explain Thai grammar to another farang, but for learning grammar I don't need a teacher. I can study Thai grammar from a book (usually written by a farang, f.i. david smyth, thai an essential grammar).

I need a teacher for practising grammar and using it in real sentences and I believe most Thai people can do that better than most foreigners.

The quality of a teacher is very important. I would only choose for a teacher and/or school that has a proven record of students that passed pratom 6 test.

I prefer to study in a classroom because I can learn from the mistakes other students make. For me a classroom course is also better to stay motivated.

I believe "total immersion", meaning not even one word English is used in the classroom (also not in the books) is a good way of teaching, but I believe absolute beginners would better first follow another course that explains them the basic grammar and vocabulary of the language before switching to total immersion.

[Neeranam]

QUOTE

There are also several different kinds of total immersion, eg Silent Way, Direct Method, Notional-Functional, etc, so it's helpful to be more specific.

These are teaching methodologies. Since I never went to classes, how did I learn?

Not by total immersion, unless you have your own definition of the term.

So going to live in a place where aeveryone speaks that language is not immersion?

[jackmuu]

QUOTE

There are also several different kinds of total immersion, eg Silent Way, Direct Method, Notional-Functional, etc, so it's helpful to be more specific.

These are teaching methodologies. Since I never went to classes, how did I learn?

Not by total immersion, unless you have your own definition of the term.

So going to live in a place where aeveryone speaks that language is not immersion?

Depends who you associate with

[soundman]

So going to live in a place where aeveryone speaks that language is not immersion?

I reckon thats pretty close to immersion.

I used to ask my wife why she went to Tasmania (Australia) to learn English. Her answer was a very simple "to get as far away from thai people as possible". When I first met her she could not string three words together. After nine months she was speaking English like she'd lived in the country for years.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[jdinasia]

So going to live in a place where aeveryone speaks that language is not immersion?

I reckon thats pretty close to immersion.

I used to ask my wife why she went to Tasmania (Australia) to learn English. Her answer was a very simple "to get as far away from thai people as possible". When I first met her she could not string three words together. After nine months she was speaking English like she'd lived in the country for years.

Cheers,

Soundman.

They speak English in Tasmania?

[soundman]

They speak English in Tasmania?

Its like the difference b/w Bkk thai and that spoken in maha sarakahm.

You can sort of understand it but not fully.

Did you know (I'm not sure if you're Aussie) that there are about six different dialects of English in Australia.... Each with its own flavour..

Cheers,

Soundman.

[sabaijai]

QUOTE

There are also several different kinds of total immersion, eg Silent Way, Direct Method, Notional-Functional, etc, so it's helpful to be more specific.

These are teaching methodologies. Since I never went to classes, how did I learn?

Not by total immersion, unless you have your own definition of the term.

So going to live in a place where aeveryone speaks that language is not immersion?

See reference. 'Total immersion' is a genre of teaching methodologies. Many expats have lived in Thailand 20 years or more and never learned more than a dozen words. Just being in a country where the target language is spoken doesn't mean a lot for an adult learner without instruction (including self-instruction, but that's not total immersion either).