Vaccine Apartheid in Thailand

[wordchild]

It seems clear that Thailand has an explicit  "Thai People First" policy with regards to the vaccine roll out here.

Other countries have made some distinction , in terms of prioritizing the roll-out, between legally registered residents and non residents , for example, UK and the US.

However, in general , most countries have followed a similar path of most vulnerable first , least vulnerable later on. 

Thailand, it seems, (has kind of) followed this path, except that its Thai citizens (some vulnerable some not) first , then foreigners of all kinds later.

I cant think of another (advanced)  country that has made such a  clear, "RACIALLY" based, distinction for prioritizing their  roll-outs ; maybe others can add examples as they come to mind.

I have lived in this country for a number of years and have a fair number of Thai friends/acquaintances. What has been really quite  shocking to me  is that the majority of Thais, that I know, see nothing unusual in this ,Thai people first,  policy. And these are people who are supposedly educated and worldly wise.

It has certainly lead me to see them, and this country, in a very different light.

.

   

 

[johng]

6 minutes ago, wordchild said:

It has certainly lead me to see them, and this country, in a very different light.

Your rose coloured spectacles have slipped

[Jingthing]

Funny that you posted this.

I was thinking today about posting a topic with a similar headline.

But I was going to take a different angle. 

I was going to talk about the development of two nations of expats, vaccinated and not. 

We can't do anything to fix Thai xenophobia, and yes I agree completely that most Thais think the Thais first policy for vaccines is totally normal and don't even begin to question the horrible ethics of it.

But as expats we do have more control.

I suggest that expats should consider that we're all in this together, whether we're vaccinated yet or not. 

We are still as a group being explicitly discriminated against.

For those that for various reasons have gotten vaccinated here already or will soon, that's great. 

 

But I'm really hoping such people don't project some kind of smugness and superiority and separation over the majority of us that haven't. Sadly I have seen this pattern already from some expats. 

 

As far as those expats that do not want to be vaccinated and don't have a specific medical reason for that, they really are a separate group. The chances that they will be infected by Delta is mostly about when than if. But in their case unlike the seekers, it's more of a choice.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Jingthing

[johng]

28 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I suggest that expats should consider that we're all in this together, whether we're vaccinated yet or not. 

So we are all in this together unless/until  for whatever reason ( can't or won't) you are not vaccinated ?

28 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

The chances that they will be infected by Delta is mostly about when than if. But in their case unlike the seekers, it's more of a choice.

Only 20 more variants till we get to Omega..will the human race survive ?

[Jingthing]

11 minutes ago, johng said:

So we are all in this together unless/until  for whatever reason ( can't or won't) you are not vaccinated ?

Only 20 more variants till we get to Omega..will the human race survive ?

Huh?
I already clarified that the segment of expats that have no interest in getting vaccinated are indeed different. 

 

They have not been effected by the fact that expats are being explicitly discriminated against for access to vaccines in Thailand based on just not being Thai.

 

Sure there will be later variants, but right now Delta is becoming very dominant and it's dramatically more infectious (yes by air / forget droplets) than the original virus. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Jingthing

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, wordchild said:

I cant think of another (advanced)  country that has made such a  clear, "RACIALLY" based, distinction for prioritizing their  roll-outs ; maybe others can add examples as they come to mind.

Your mistake is in thinking that Thailand is an advanced country, it's not.

[simon43]

12 minutes ago, ukrules said:

Your mistake is in thinking that Thailand is an advanced country, it's not.

Laos is clearly not an advanced country, far from it.  But they did not discriminate between Lao and foreign persons when it cam to vaccinations.  I received my AZ jabs using exactly the same process as Lao citizens, with priority given according to accepted medical risks etc, and not according to race or nationality.

[Jingthing]

Yeah, of course it really shouldn't be a big surprise, but Thailand like much of the world is in crisis mode, and when push comes to shove, the true colors of discriminatory policies become even more visible, thus the shove away from vaccination sites for so many of us, including HIGH RISK expats. 

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

I posed this in another topic before reading this one, but I wonder how many farangs walk into a government facility, ask for a vaccine and get told they can't have one when actually they could have had one, but the front desk staff have spent their entire careers being told farangs can't get anything for free under any circumstances. Did anyone give them the memo?

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's as simple as this. Never forget, TiT. . .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Led Lolly Yellow Lolly

[Caldera]

I don't know of any other country, rich or poor, that uses nationality as a more or less official prioritization criterion. Residency, yes, few countries seem willing to vaccinate tourists. But not nationality. That Thailand stands out like this is pretty shameful.

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

 

I suggest that expats should consider that we're all in this together, whether we're vaccinated yet or not. 

 

What has happened to make you feel some vaccinated expatriates are expressing themselves as somehow elevated above non-vaccinated expatriates? I don't really understand your point here, when we're all in this together, yes, but not just, dare I say it, white expatriates, but Burmese, Cambodians, Laotians (collectively known locally as scum), Thais, Seppos, and, and, and. . .

 

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Led Lolly Yellow Lolly

[MayBeNow]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Yeah, of course it really shouldn't be a big surprise, but Thailand like much of the world is in crisis mode, and when push comes to shove, the true colors of discriminatory policies become even more visible, thus the shove away from vaccination sites for so many of us, including HIGH RISK expats. 

So why dont you go out and demonstrate? I am sure your fully capable of organising a White Lifes Matter movement in Thailand.

 

Besides complaining on a platform exclusively used by Westerners, did you ever let your grievances known to the people in charge in Thailand? To the government, to the ministers, to the senators, to name just a few. Or do you just complain complain but take no action?

 

Thats not how changes comes round jingting.

Edited July 14, 2021 by MayBeNow

[Jingthing]

10 minutes ago, Led Lolly Yellow Lolly said:

What has happened to make you feel some vaccinated expatriates are expressing themselves as somehow elevated above non-vaccinated expatriates? I don't really understand your point here, when we're all in this together, yes, but not just, dare I say it, white expatriates, but Burmese, Cambodians, Laotians (collectively known locally as scum), Thais, Seppos, and, and, and. . .

 

 

 

 

You're right.

You don’t understand my point here.

[Jingthing]

Just now, MayBeNow said:

So why dont you go out and demonstrate? I am sure your fully capable of organising a White Lifes Matter movement in Thailand.

Unbelievable. Goodbye.

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

Then explain it to me. How are we, as expatriates, in it together any more than we're in it with the Thais or anyone else?

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

All you can offer me is a sad emoticon? Is that your point, were all in it together as a race? A race of white people? Us, and them?

 

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Led Lolly Yellow Lolly

[richard_smith237]

5 hours ago, wordchild said:

It seems clear that Thailand has an explicit  "Thai People First" policy with regards to the vaccine roll out here.

Other countries have made some distinction , in terms of prioritizing the roll-out, between legally registered residents and non residents , for example, UK and the US.

However, in general , most countries have followed a similar path of most vulnerable first , least vulnerable later on. 

Thailand, it seems, (has kind of) followed this path, except that its Thai citizens (some vulnerable some not) first , then foreigners of all kinds later.

I received my AZ vaccination before my Thai Wife, before my Brother in Law and before both my Mother in Law and Father In Law. I received my vaccination before many of my Thai friends. 

 

I don’t think Thailand has operated in a Xenophobic manner towards foreigners, but it has been completely ignorant and indifferent to the plight of foreigners in high risk groups. The Thai government has been also been completely indifferent to the plight of Thai’s in high risk groups.

 

This is simply ineptitude, the Thai government are completely overwhelmed by idea of vaccinating over 55 million adults - they can’t get hold of vaccines, they are in a panic and are struggling to plan beyond the next step - us minority of foreigners have hardly registered on the radar of the Thai government.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, wordchild said:

I cant think of another (advanced)  country that has made such a  clear, "RACIALLY" based, distinction for prioritizing their  roll-outs ; maybe others can add examples as they come to mind.

It may seem like racism, but its not. It just total ineptitude. 

IF it were racist, any foreigner with a Yellow Tabien Baan and Pink ID would not have been able to register for vaccines. 

 

 

5 hours ago, wordchild said:

I have lived in this country for a number of years and have a fair number of Thai friends/acquaintances. What has been really quite  shocking to me  is that the majority of Thais, that I know, see nothing unusual in this ,Thai people first,  policy. And these are people who are supposedly educated and worldly wise.

It has certainly lead me to see them, and this country, in a very different light.

In the West amongst all the noise and criticism we are used to governments which are capable of planning for difficult and often unforeseeable situations. Even when they plan poorly for the variable and the changing face of Covid and have faced a great deal of criticism it has remained clear that there have been plans in place.

 

In Thailand the phrase ‘farang think too much’ springs to mind... not to ridicule Thailand, but it does have a very relaxed attitude towards planning for and being about the unforeseeable.

 

 

 

[chessman]

23 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

I received my AZ vaccination before my Thai Wife, before my Brother in Law and before both my Mother in Law and Father In Law. I received my vaccination before many of my Thai friends. 

 

I don’t think Thailand has operated in a Xenophobic manner towards foreigners, but it has been completely ignorant and indifferent to the plight of foreigners in high risk groups. The Thai government has been also been completely indifferent to the plight of Thai’s in high risk groups.

 

This is simply ineptitude, the Thai government are completely overwhelmed by idea of vaccinating over 55 million adults - they can’t get hold of vaccines, they are in a panic and are struggling to plan beyond the next step - us minority of foreigners have hardly registered on the radar of the Thai government.

Yes, and it also has unfortunately become about who you know and who can arrange things for you. My employer was able to vaccinate its foreign staff at the start of June in the first few days of mass-vaccination. This included people in their 20s and 30s who should have been low priority. I also know of several cases of youngish (Thai) people whose employer organised vaccination well before their elderly relatives were able to be vaccinated.

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, chessman said:

39 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

I received my AZ vaccination before my Thai Wife, before my Brother in Law and before both my Mother in Law and Father In Law. I received my vaccination before many of my Thai friends. 

 

I don’t think Thailand has operated in a Xenophobic manner towards foreigners, but it has been completely ignorant and indifferent to the plight of foreigners in high risk groups. The Thai government has been also been completely indifferent to the plight of Thai’s in high risk groups.

 

This is simply ineptitude, the Thai government are completely overwhelmed by idea of vaccinating over 55 million adults - they can’t get hold of vaccines, they are in a panic and are struggling to plan beyond the next step - us minority of foreigners have hardly registered on the radar of the Thai government.

Expand  

Yes, and it also has unfortunately become about who you know and who can arrange things for you. My employer was able to vaccinate its foreign staff at the start of June in the first few days of mass-vaccination. This included people in their 20s and 30s who should have been low priority. I also know of several cases of youngish (Thai) people whose employer organised vaccination well before their elderly relatives were able to be vaccinated.

Pink ID card - that was it. I didn’t need to know anyone, didn’t use any work of family connections...  Just the details on the Pink ID to register with Mor Promp app. 

 

Even at the time of registration there were people on this forum telling those of us who’d posted and said we'd had register with Mor Promp that Thailand would never ‘honour’ the foreigner registrations. 

 

But you are also correct, I know plenty of Westerners who have been vaccinated through their work. 

All of the teachers at my Sons school have been vaccinated (mostly Westerners).

 

You are also correct with your other point. When I was vaccinated there were also a long of relatively young (i.e. 30 year olds etc) also getting vaccinated. 

 

 

I registered to be vaccinated with a ‘health issue’ not one person checked to see whether that was true or not. 

 

 

 

 

[poskat]

when I read the title of this thread, I thought it was going to be about what will develop here when a sizable portion of the population, nationality aside, are fully vaccinated and the enactment of "only those fully vaccinated are allowed to (fill in the activity here)" policies.

 

I got my AZ jab based on this concern, which I am sure will happen here, rather than due to a health concern.

[HampiK]

Yes Thais mostly think Thais first. But with vaccine I am not sure. I think this is more that some province not want give it to foreigners yes.. but you know many Thais who already received the vaccine yet?

I myself know still a few Thais who waiting for their vaccines. So we not really know what percentage of foreigners are vaccinated and how many percentage of Thais are vaccinated. It's also possible, that maybe in percentage more foreigner are vaccinated already than Thais!!! Without facts I always would be very careful. Of course for the unvaccinated foreigner it looks like this. Maybe true maybe not... but never forget there are still millions of Thais who not received their vaccine as well.

[EricTh]

@wordchild

 

Not really true.

 

There are some foreigners with pink ID cards who are on yearly visa extension getting the vaccine first even though they are neither Thai citizens nor PR.

 

Go figure that out...

Edited July 15, 2021 by EricTh

[richard_smith237]

3 hours ago, EricTh said:

@wordchild

 

Not really true.

 

There are some foreigners with pink ID cards who are on yearly visa extension getting the vaccine first even though they are neither Thai citizens nor PR.

 

Go figure that out...

 

This response (wordchild) is typical of foreigners who perceive a degree of persecution when they don’t get what they expect or don’t understand the general picture. 

 

We see it when a Westerner is stopped and fined for speeding, not wearing a helmet or does not have their licence at a police check point - some will argue that the Police are targeting foreigners. 

The same in an accident if a foreigner gets the blame because he could not describe what happened or he was the only one with insurance so the BiB just decided his insurance could pay, a Thai would have faced exactly the same result - some will argue that the Police always blame the foreigner.

 

The point there is there are some Westerners (foreigners) in Thailand who can only ever perceive the negative and fail to recognise other facets of the situation they are in. 

 

 

In this case I do not believe Thailand are actively not vaccinated foreigners, rather Thailand is simply indifferent to foreigners as they have bigger things to worry about such as securing enough vaccines for everyone in the first place ! 

 

That said: The vaccine roll out has been extremely clumsy - the Thai system of registering with a Thai ID may well have been thought to be the most logical way to register and track all the vaccination, but it was ignorant and clumsy from a perspective that foreigners (without Pink ID) could not register on this system. 

 

With a Pink ID I received the vaccine. With a Pink ID my maids received their vaccines. Thailand is not ‘blocking’ foreigners from getting vaccines, but foreigners certainly do not register on any list of priorities for the Thai government when it comes to the vaccine. 

 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

This response (wordchild) is typical of foreigners who perceive a degree of persecution when they don’t get what they expect or don’t understand the general picture. 

 

We see it when a Westerner is stopped and fined for speeding, not wearing a helmet or does not have their licence at a police check point - some will argue that the Police are targeting foreigners. 

The same in an accident if a foreigner gets the blame because he could not describe what happened or he was the only one with insurance so the BiB just decided his insurance could pay, a Thai would have faced exactly the same result - some will argue that the Police always blame the foreigner.

 

The point there is there are some Westerners (foreigners) in Thailand who can only ever perceive the negative and fail to recognise other facets of the situation they are in. 

 

 

In this case I do not believe Thailand are actively not vaccinated foreigners, rather Thailand is simply indifferent to foreigners as they have bigger things to worry about such as securing enough vaccines for everyone in the first place ! 

 

That said: The vaccine roll out has been extremely clumsy - the Thai system of registering with a Thai ID may well have been thought to be the most logical way to register and track all the vaccination, but it was ignorant and clumsy from a perspective that foreigners (without Pink ID) could not register on this system. 

 

With a Pink ID I received the vaccine. With a Pink ID my maids received their vaccines. Thailand is not ‘blocking’ foreigners from getting vaccines, but foreigners certainly do not register on any list of priorities for the Thai government when it comes to the vaccine. 

 

I have a passport.

I live in Pattaya.

I am high risk in multiple ways.

I have been blocked.

Don't try to tell me otherwise because it just isn't true.

 

[richard_smith237]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

I have a passport.

I live in Pattaya.

I am high risk in multiple ways.

I have been blocked.

Don't try to tell me otherwise because it just isn't true.

 

 

You started a thread, the title of which includes ‘for expats outside the Thai system’... 

 

Is it possible or have you tried to 'get in Thai system’ ???

 

i.e. have you tried to get a Yellow Tabien Baan house book and Pink ID ??? I know for some their landlords etc are just not helpful with any of that, but for others it is a possibility. 

 

If someone ‘is able’ to get a Yellow Tabien Baan and Pink ID but has decided (for whatever reasons that the don’t want to), and if they are in an area which is vaccinating, yet they are still complaining that they can’t get the vaccine then the problem lies with them-self.

 

----------

 

Initially I was of the mindset that our governments should be lobbying and pressuring the Thai government to include foreigners in the vaccine roll out alongside Thai’s, I didn’t expect any special treatment. Over the past few months it has become clear that most Thai’s cannot get vaccinated, so foreigners in the same area’s also cannot get vaccinated. 

 

But, there are also foreigners in high risk groups (such as yourself), I believe it is these people who our Embassy should be supporting.

 

I don’t mean a healthy 50 year old, I mean those in genuine high risk groups, those >70 and those with health issues, immunodeficiency, asthma, diabetes etc (all the issues associated with high risk for Covid-19). 

 

I believe it is time our Embassies took care of those in high risk groups and offered vaccinations on Embassy Soil with vaccines brought in through diplomatic channels.

This of course would not suit everyone, but it would give an opportunity for those in high risk groups to receive the vaccine - the onus can the be placed on them to ‘make sure they get there’. 

 

 

 

 

[Heng]

Really this is a great window of opportunity for China to just vaccinate everyone.   All they have to do is ramp up production (of local and licensed jabs) mainland style, increase recruitment of a bunch of Cyrus Janssen type puppets to help sell it, and it's not like worldwide frozen shipping is something new.          

 

cc: [email protected]

[EricTh]

46 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

i.e. have you tried to get a Yellow Tabien Baan house book and Pink ID ??? I know for some their landlords etc are just not helpful with any of that, but for others it is a possibility. 

 

You must understand that not every long-term foreigner can get a Yellow book and Pink ID because it depends on the willingness of the owner of the house.

 

For example, I am on a 30-year lease on a landed property because a foreigner can't own land. The Thai owner of the land is not willing to help me on this which is no fault of mine.

 

Why should we be penalized for this when I have been living in Thailand as long as or even longer than those with pink ID card?

 

The Pink ID is actually a loophole in their Moprom app because the software engineers didn't/couldn't exclude foreigners with pink ID. It was really meant for Thai citizens only from what I've read. 

 

Their software engineers suck as can be seen in their 90 day reporting software.

 

There is another app that is specifically meant for foreigners to just register their passport number. I did that but is on a long waiting list.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2021 by EricTh

[richard_smith237]

4 minutes ago, EricTh said:

You must understand that not every long-term foreigner can get a Yellow book and Pink ID because it depends on the willingness of the owner of the house.

 

For example, I am on a 30-year lease on a landed property because a foreigner can't own land. The Thai owner of the land is not willing to help me on this which is no fault of mine.

Yep, I’m sympathetic towards that - its a difficult one.

 

4 minutes ago, EricTh said:

Why should we be penalized for this when I have been living in Thailand as long as or even longer than those with pink ID card?

You shouldn’t. But you are not being penalised, along with all other foreigners you (we) are simply not a primary concern when the vast majority of Thai’s have still not been vaccinated. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, EricTh said:

The Pink ID is actually a loophole in their Moprom app because the software engineers didn't/couldn't exclude foreigners with pink ID. It was meant for Thai citizens only from what I've read.

I read that too, but only on this forum. I suspect it was spread by those who were hoping those who’d registered with the Pink ID would be rejected come ‘vaccination appointment’ time - there was certainly a lot of talk and paranoia that those who’d been able to register would be reactive - hopeful Schadenfreude !.. they even had me convinced I’d face problems, come vaccine time I was actually quite surprised that no eyebrows were raised at the ‘farang’ receiving a vaccine. This was a good example (for me at least) of how we can be influenced towards the negative by forums such as this with people moaning, complaining etc.

 

 

4 minutes ago, EricTh said:

There is another app that is meant for foreigners to just register their passport number. I did that but is on a long waiting list.

The websites for foreigners to log in have been a complete failure: All of my friends who have been vaccinated have done so through their work, through the Pink ID and in some cases through business contacts etc

 

Those who are here on their own, i.e. retired etc are seeming to struggle which is why I’d advise, for those who can, get the Pink ID, this may be useful come ‘booster’ time as well. 

 

 

In the meantime, for guys such as yourself, I’d recommend re-building bridges and taking any possible steps to secure the Yellow Tabien Baan etc. But as you mentioned, this may not be an option.

 

------------

 

There is another facet to all this complaining: Many are in areas where Thai’s are not being vaccinated yet some how are feeling persecuted or victimised as foreigners that they are not being vaccinated. 

 

If our neighbours are not being vaccinated through the Thai system, its a fairly flawed complaint if we too cannot be vaccinated. I know that vaccinations are being concentrated in areas such as Bangkok where the outbreak is stronger. 

 

 

[EricTh]

5 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

.. they even had me convinced I’d face problems, come vaccine time I was actually quite surprised that no eyebrows were raised at the ‘farang’ receiving a vaccine.

 

That is simply NOT true.

 

I have been to several vaccine registration booths and all said 'Thai citizens first', they didn't even ask at that time whether I had the pink ID card.

 

So it is a loophole of the Moprom app, a bug....

 

The miscommunication between the higher-up authorities and the nurses resulted in some foreigners getting the vaccine instead.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2021 by EricTh

[wordchild]

1 hour ago, EricTh said:

 

That is simply NOT true.

 

I have been to several vaccine registration booths and all said 'Thai citizens first', they didn't even ask at that time whether I had the pink ID card.

 

So it is a loophole of the Moprom app, a bug....

 

The miscommunication between the higher-up authorities and the nurses resulted in some foreigners getting the vaccine instead.

 

 

Bumrungrad, for example, opened up their vaccination program, at least initially, for Thais only. That was made clear to anyone who enquired.

Was that a policy that they decided on? frankly i doubt it, more likely that is what they were told to do. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by wordchild