Pidgin English

[junkofdavid2]

We speak that way in an effort to speak English in a similar sentence structure to that of Thai language, making it easier for them to understand us immediately, although not helping their English learning in the long run.

But khun Somchai isn't paying me to be his English teacher, so that's not my problem. My problem is getting him to understand me in the shortest possible time for that particular transaction!

The OP isn't paying the Scottish dude anything either, so why should he care to risk making his life harder just for the sake of the OP's wife?

Edited May 31, 2007 by junkofdavid2

[The Dan Sai Kid]

If I hear some farang speaking pidgin english then I just presume they are a bit on the thick side. By the comments left here I presume I am not the only one.

I also think it's condescending and patronising.

just MHO BTW!

Edited May 31, 2007 by The Dan Sai Kid

[Ping]

If I hear some farang speaking pidgin english then I just presume they are a bit on the thick side. By the comments left here I presume I am not the only one.

I also think it's condescending and patronising.

just MHO BTW!

... and everyone is entitled to their opinions. It doe not necessarily mean that you are correct. 'Pidgin' is certainly annoying (and sometimes condescending) when unnecessary, but I find there are occasions where it is utile. Nice of you to generalise with the 'thick' statement - no doubt you have plenty of supporters. I disagree with you, but I am not about to insult you.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

I'm not trying to insult. When a grown adult decides to talk to another grown adult in baby talk, purely based on their nationality then I do think that person can't be over-furnished in the brain department.

[OxfordWill]

It's also presumptious if you do not know that person. Manners dictate you begin with decent polite full English and if there is an obvious communication problem you can work your way DOWN to pidgin English. Not start with pidgin, then work your way up once you realise the other person is fluent!

[meemiathai]

We speak that way in an effort to speak English in a similar sentence structure to that of Thai language, making it easier for them to understand us immediately, although not helping their English learning in the long run.

But khun Somchai isn't paying me to be his English teacher, so that's not my problem. My problem is getting him to understand me in the shortest possible time for that particular transaction!

The OP isn't paying the Scottish dude anything either, so why should he care to risk making his life harder just for the sake of the OP's wife?

Fully agreed

[Ping]

We speak that way in an effort to speak English in a similar sentence structure to that of Thai language, making it easier for them to understand us immediately, although not helping their English learning in the long run.

But khun Somchai isn't paying me to be his English teacher, so that's not my problem. My problem is getting him to understand me in the shortest possible time for that particular transaction!

The OP isn't paying the Scottish dude anything either, so why should he care to risk making his life harder just for the sake of the OP's wife?

Fully agreed

Actually I agree, to some extent, with most of the opinions on this topic - I just find it interesting that people try to reinforce their own particular views with insults directed towards those having a differing view. I would have thought that genuine topics of interest could be debated outside the schoolyard.

[Tod Daniels]

When I am speaking to someone from this country (or anyone from a non-English first language country for that matter); I’ll use the initial introduction, pleasantries, etc as a gauge to their comprehension ability. I will always start out in correct contextual English, and then modify my speaking to the level I perceive they have the ability to understand.

Is it condescending? (A better question would be; “Do I care?”). I don't feel any form of communication is dictated by proper grammar. The definition of communication from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary is; a process by which information is exchanged between individuals through a common system (as in speech). If information is being exchanged, communication is happening, mission accomplished.

It is admirable some people believe speaking 'sa-low-ly' will help. Unfortunately, I have found it far from the case in most situations. Many times, endlessly repeating the same sentence while varying the degree of speed it is spoken, while pausing dramatically every so often, and/or enunciating differently won't help their comprehension a bit. It's only too apparent from their body language, their glazed eyes, and their perpetually plastered on smiles (sorry, my mistake, the smiles are always plastered on).

Once I clearly discern their ability or inherent lack thereof to comprehend contextually spoken English; I'll begin by leaving out linking words, tenses, or any words which aren't needed to convey the basic thought or idea. Many times I have found it helpful to construct a sentence using English words but in thai word/sentence order. Usually that is enough to immediately get the point across, when moronically repeating the sentence, sa-low-ly (as advocated by some sock puppets on this thread) will not achieve the required results in a minimal amount of time.

In going on 3 years here in the glorious "Land 'O Thais", I can count on one hand the thais I've met who can actually speak anything bearing a slight resemblance to high register spoken English. In that time I've met many highly educated thais with master and/or doctorate degrees (gotten from outside this country, often in the US), yet they have english skills which I'd rate right up there with the mystery-meat-on-a-stick seller on my Soi.

If I had a one baht coin for every time a thai replied to the query, "How are you?", with the slurred single word response; "Iamfinethankyouandyou?", I'd be a billionaire.

To the people who say it does a 'disservice' to speak pidgin engrish I say; "Not job me, teach speak, job country they."

Arrogance has to be earned. Tell me; what you did to earn yours?

[dave111223]

I think I am guilty of this quite a bit.

It could be that i moved to the US from the UK while i was in high school and got used to changing my accent based upon my surroundings.

So when everyone around is speaking broken English i often start speaking broken English too.

But IMO most of the time the average Thai person finds it a lot easier to understand a simpler form of English.

[onzestan]

As a non-native English speaker I have been following this thread with amusement, till the OP found it necessary to start insulting people, because he wasn't getting the replies he wanted to hear.

I'm sure my English is not perfect but in my opinion pretty good, but let me tell you, every so often when I sit amongst native English speakers I am at a loss at what the heck they are talking about in their different slangs. If you cannot speak your own language correctly how can you criticize others that don't either.

Anyway I have been married for nearly 18 years now with my Thai wife. She is NOT interested in learning correct English because all of her family and friends speak Thai, most of my friends speak either dutch, french or german, so between us we have developed a common pidgin whatever and can communicate without any problem. What's wrong with that?

Do as the Thais do, and compliment someone that is trying to do you a favor by trying to communicate in your language, be it pidgin.

My 2 cents

onzestan

[peter991]

You quickly learn to change from Oz English to Pidgin English after you discover your first contact with a Thai person after passing through Passport Control is a taxi driver, who only speaks ONE word of English and it is 'YES' ... to any question you ask.

Peter

[onzestan]

I'm not trying to insult. When a grown adult decides to talk to another grown adult in baby talk, purely based on their nationality then I do think that person can't be over-furnished in the brain department.

Speak for yourself kiddo, I'm fluent in English, French, German and Dutch, I can get by in Thai, Spanish and Greek.

Knowing all these languages I still speak pidgin with my wife, simply because she is not interested in learning correct English, and nobody can teach anything to someone who isn't interested. That doesn't mean my wife is stupid and neither am I.

BTW how many languages are you fluent in?

Onzestan

[soundman]

I try to avoid using pidgeon English if I can.

When issueing orders in my factory I will try with my limited thai to get the message accross. If I don't know how to say something I'll speak slowly and clearly in English using relatively simple words, but in the correct format. (usually accompanied with some very descripive sign language for the laos speakers )

IMO a thai person who does not understand English will not understand pidgeon any better.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[Jet Gorgon]

I'm not trying to insult. When a grown adult decides to talk to another grown adult in baby talk, purely based on their nationality then I do think that person can't be over-furnished in the brain department.

Speak for yourself kiddo, I'm fluent in English, French, German and Dutch, I can get by in Thai, Spanish and Greek.

Knowing all these languages I still speak pidgin with my wife, simply because she is not interested in learning correct English, and nobody can teach anything to someone who isn't interested. That doesn't mean my wife is stupid and neither am I.

BTW how many languages are you fluent in?

Onzestan

Well, you just broadcast the extent of your marital relationship, Onzee.

I blushed in shame if people downtalked to me in baby speak when I was learning new languages. I may only be totally fluent in one, good in another and conversant in a few more, but I am polite in all, except with obtuse morons. I never use pidgin; to me it's like treating others like they are simpletons. Plain phrases are OK, pidgin is derogatory. Knowing many languages doesn't mean you are intelligent. Even monkeys can mimic.

[OxfordWill]

Jet Gorgon- exactly!

I think the problem can also be that if you talk to someone as if they are 5 years old you will eventually start to think they are 5 years old and treat them accordingly.

Communication is a whole lot more than a dictionary definition- via communication we form many of our opinions about people. I think it's dangerous to underestimate the power the way in which we communicate with someone might have over our subconscience thoughts about them. As a result of this if I am forced to use English with someone who doesnt understand it I will try very hard to include all the right words and grammar and in my experience so far this has not let me down.

Also how are the taxi drivers going to get any better at understanding English if nobody speaks it to them properly in the first place? They only get sent on one english course a millenia.

[sceadugenga]

Conversation in Pool hall/bar near Asok Road, several years ago.

Bob: (Newly arrived friend of Sceadugenga) Do you have any children my dear?

Bar worker: Uh?

Bob: How many children do you have?

BW: Uh?

Sceadugenga: You hev bebby?

BW: Ah yes, two bebby.

Bob: and where are they, who do they stay with? With your Mum?

BW: Uh?

Bob: Do the children stay with your mother?

BW: Uh?

Sceadugenga: Mama take care?

BW: Ah yes, Mama take care.

Bob: F*cking smartarse.

Next time Sceadugenga will NOT be translating for him.

Edited June 3, 2007 by sceadugenga

[martaway]

I don't post in this sub-forum that often and I'm not sure it's the right place for it, if it isn't then can a friendly (that would be all of them) Mod please move it.

Anyhoo, I live in Scotland with my wife (who is Thai). Occasionally we meet people who have been to Thailand or have a Thai partner - now when these people speak to me they seem normal enough. But when they speak to my wife they quickly turn into some sort of Victorian explorer in darkest Africa.

Okay, I need to give an example. We were coming out a cash and carry, one of those places where they check your receipt against your products - as the dude was checking our receipts he asked me if my wife was Thai. I replied yes, on saying this he turned to my wife and said, "My wife from Thailand" I mean, what's wrong with the "is"? Would it really hurt to speak normally?

IMHO this is incredibly patronising. People should not presume that because someone is Thai they do not have the ability to understand as complicated words as "is"!

The thing is if you only ever hear people talk like this then how are you supposed to be able to speak English correctly - people do learn English from speaking to other people after all.

Is it just me that is irritated by this?

This has been a pet hate of mine for years.

I had an English friend who spoke to his Thai wife of 20 years this way and it really annoyed me.

I personally feel embarassed for the Farang who speaks this way.

How can his partner ever hopr to improve her English if her partner talks to her like a moron ?

Well done for posting this.

Him clever man you !!!!!!!!!

[wolfmanjack]

My wife does not speak in pidgeon.... but for some reason writes in pidgeon....

I have never spoken to her in pidgeon, never even thought it was necessary.

The sis-in-law..... maybe we do, I have nover given it much thought. My only goal is to communicate... I really do not care if it is perferct or not.

From the day I met my wife she spoke with pretty good english according to webster. She also writes in pidgeon. I try to tell her to write the same way she speaks but it hasn't worked in 8 years. We speak english together at normal speeds but she gets things screwed up sometimes.

Not too long ago I said, "Here is some money to buy toys for the kids." She said, "Did you just call me a bitch." Since she speaks english at the same speed I do I forget that she can not understand as fast as I speak. It also may be that she hears mostly what she wants to hear instead of what I say.

[tijnebijn]

I am one of the guilty ones too!!!

Sometimes I try,although my wife speaks English pretty well,to introduce her to a better way of expressing yourself.But she replies to me with,yeah but I am not English aren't I?

And we stay in Thailand.So we speak ,like may couples I assume,Thai together with English.And we both,my Thai and her English is still improving,in a matter of saying, goes automatically.

I do think about it as not being such good to talk in this way,but I do not feel guilty.My Kids also speak Thai /english,but in school they speak full Thai.If anyone gets annoyed with this,it is your problem.Also I am not a native speaker also,it could be even more complicated when introducing Dutch as well.....no better not.

After all ,being in Thailand I should communicate in Thai more then English,if staying in a country which speaks English we should talk English,or German or Dutch for that manner.We farang and families talk in this way,cause of communication difficulties,we all compromise,learn and until that we swirl.I do not have a problem with that ,so long we can understand each other period.A short question,does anyone who irritates him/herself on this and living in Thailand ,speaks fluent Thai then?????Not many for sure,with speaking I also mean pronouncing like a Thai??If can't I think better do not give your opinion at all.Or is this not babytalking ,how I described how we communicate?

[mikethevigoman]

The one that annoys me is falangs who speak to their GFs in baby talk, and they end up speaking the same, how are they supposed to learn english if spoken to like a baby??

We are to blame most of the time because we imitate them, my favourite is yellow money ( germany ),. if we were to speak normal to them and not " big silver bird to london " sort of talk we would all benefit from it,.im surprised more bgs dont have slurring slang with all the pissheads they encounter ,I liken it to teaching a parrot to talk, they will imitate their surroundings,. have you noticed the thais that speak in an american accent ( i hate it ) .well you can almost guarantee that 99 per cent of these have never set foot on US soil, it wil be their teachers accent here,. but on a serious note it is best for any foreigner wishing to learn a new language to have lessons with a qualified teacher ( that speaks both languages them selves ) ,. Or as you are in scotland teach your wife to say in a scottish accent " see you. if your tekkin the piss outta me ill stick one on ya jimmy " Edited June 3, 2007 by mikethevigoman

[mikethevigoman]

I agree with you that speaking pidgen to a Thai is not doing them any favors in helping them with their English and can be a bit of a put down to a Thai that understands proper English.

Too true.Thanks god i have never met any farang who speaks pidgin to me, although my English is not so good.

If you farangs want to speak to Thais ,feel free to speak perfectly accent.We Thais may ask you to decrease your speed.But do not degrade.

Thats the key, speed, slow down and you will be understood most of the time, it took me a while to take this on but now i do my best ! sawasdee kaap

[mikethevigoman]

Me go hospital, get para, have hurt in head.

I am guilty of doing this with wifey sometimes and I do have to keep myself in check. But the one that really gets to me is when we have a transient visitor in town who is staying with the family for ten days and speaks to everyone like that, including the farangs.

(reminds me of a sketch........

"What, me doctor"

"No, me doctor, you Jane" ........ )

//edit/Python

Classic Monty python,no me doctor you patient ! hilarious, i do miss english humour

[chinthee]

I don't agree with many posters here. Many times Pidgin English is needed and necessary to get the communication across quicker and with understanding. There is nothing demeaning about it. I've lived in Thailand and other countries for many years and worked and traveled for years widely around the world. There is nothing demeaning about it in this communication facilitating context. In Thailand, using pidgin English becomes almost nil if you learn to speak Thai well, as you will find yourself not needing it or switching to Thai immediately with Pidgin English speakers. Even then, you will need to slip into Pidgin often with various mixed parties speaking English to get points across quicker in many contexts.

However, one of the funniest damm things I ever saw was in a bar in Phuket frequented by expats (not bar girl bar). This was a large bar, and a number of native English-speaking long time expats were gathered around the bar yakking, and the bartenders (Thai ladies) and one or two Thai GFs were joining in. The conversation was all in Pidgin English so that the Thais could join in more easily as their English ability wasn't that good. Suddenly, I noticed that all the staff and the other Thais had gone off to a corner to discuss things in Thai, leaving the group of expats at the bar. With the Thais absent, I exited the conversation and just listened. here is a sample of what I heard:

Bob: You go Patong tonight?

Jim. No, I drink too much last night, not go.

Bob: Come on, go together, ok?

Jim: Last night too kee maow. cannot.

This went on and on until the Thais came back, and continued as normal thereafter, all in glorious pidgin. With or without Thais.

[mikethevigoman]

I'm not trying to insult. When a grown adult decides to talk to another grown adult in baby talk, purely based on their nationality then I do think that person can't be over-furnished in the brain department.

Speak for yourself kiddo, I'm fluent in English, French, German and Dutch, I can get by in Thai, Spanish and Greek.

Knowing all these languages I still speak pidgin with my wife, simply because she is not interested in learning correct English, and nobody can teach anything to someone who isn't interested. That doesn't mean my wife is stupid and neither am I.

BTW how many languages are you fluent in?

Onzestan

Well, you just broadcast the extent of your marital relationship, Onzee.

I blushed in shame if people downtalked to me in baby speak when I was learning new languages. I may only be totally fluent in one, good in another and conversant in a few more, but I am polite in all, except with obtuse morons. I never use pidgin; to me it's like treating others like they are simpletons. Plain phrases are OK, pidgin is derogatory. Knowing many languages doesn't mean you are intelligent. Even monkeys can mimic.

Well said ,and the original question was asked by someone in Scotland, ,.in Thailand you would expect it,.by a fellow countryman that has probably never been to Thailand to have his wife spoken to like that is im my opinion showing ones ignorance,. i only speak one language, it does not stop me from being polite,.

[britmaveric]

Hard not to - getting your point across is the necessity not how pidgin you speak. If it works then use it.

I speak normally first and if that doesnt work I simplify things.

[onzestan]

Well, you just broadcast the extent of your marital relationship, Onzee.

I blushed in shame if people downtalked to me in baby speak when I was learning new languages. I may only be totally fluent in one, good in another and conversant in a few more, but I am polite in all, except with obtuse morons. I never use pidgin; to me it's like treating others like they are simpletons. Plain phrases are OK, pidgin is derogatory. Knowing many languages doesn't mean you are intelligent. Even monkeys can mimic.

Dear Jet Gorgon,

I fail to see what speaking pidgin has to do with the quality of my marital relationship. We are quite happy thank you.

I'm not English and neither is she.

I felt that The Dansai Kid insulted people that have not had the privilege to have a decent education, and therefore having to resort to speaking broken English, because the other person cannot communicate in her/his language. Is that a sign of stupidity? I think not.

I know that knowing many languages is not a sign of intelligence, it only proves that either I had a knack for it, or maybe that I was eager to learn, but I also know that monkeys cannot mimic speech. Parrots and other birds can.

And furthermore there's a whole lot of people out there that don't speak English, simply because English comes only third in the list of most spoken languages. And BTW my language comes way down on that list, but I'm not ashamed of that because I can speak it properly.

So Jet Gorgon, have at me as much as you want, but leave my marriage out of it. I will NOT accept that.

No malice intended

onzestan

Edited June 3, 2007 by onzestan

[Tinkelbell]

I agree with you that speaking pidgen to a Thai is not doing them any favors in helping them with their English and can be a bit of a put down to a Thai that understands proper English. I will have to restrain myself on this subject since it is one of my pet peeves and unfortunately is almost the unofficial language of the state of Hawaii where I reside part of the year. Even though the locals are taught proper English in the schools, the majority of them continue to speak pidgen english mixed with a few Hawaiin words . The pidgen is so strong here that it is sometimes even difficult for me to keep track of what they are talking about. We have a poor public education system in the islands and then with the added problem of pidgen english, most of the locals are pretty much limited to blue collar or tourist jobs here in the islands without any chance of getting a really good job or job on the mainland.

Couldn't put it better my self. Absolutly agree.

Many Thai spouses who live in Hawii speaking pidgen everywhere. It's a common practice for them.

Have you ever read any letter that written in English by these Thai spouses?

[fabianfred]

When speaking to Thais about learning the english language I often praise the BG's ....

placing on one side of the coin the Thais who have been exposed to english study since Pratom 1 right through to university level... but are quite unable to have a conversation... even though they may be able to read and write OK..

on the other side is the Bar girls who often have had little study, but after only a few months can converse quite understandably.... maybe cannot read/write, but that can come later

[Ping]

What amuses me is that those who refuse to use the pidgin must end-up in some embarrassing situations (unless they speak reasonable Thai) - there will be numerous occasions where they cannot be understood yet they will refuse to simplify things so that they can be understood. I wonder if those who are arguing against pidgin are effective communcators in Thai and have simply forgotten their days of using pidgin? Someone pointed out (above) that communication is about getting ideas across; makes a lot of sense to me. My Thai language skills are limited and until I am far more adept in Thai, I will not embarras anyone by refusing to simplify the message. I will communicate.

Edited June 4, 2007 by Ping

[wolfmanjack]

The one that annoys me is falangs who speak to their GFs in baby talk, and they end up speaking the same, how are they supposed to learn english if spoken to like a baby??

We are to blame most of the time because we imitate them, my favourite is yellow money ( germany ),. if we were to speak normal to them and not " big silver bird to london " sort of talk we would all benefit from it,.im surprised more bgs dont have slurring slang with all the pissheads they encounter ,I liken it to teaching a parrot to talk, they will imitate their surroundings,. have you noticed the thais that speak in an american accent ( i hate it ) .well you can almost guarantee that 99 per cent of these have never set foot on US soil, it wil be their teachers accent here,. but on a serious note it is best for any foreigner wishing to learn a new language to have lessons with a qualified teacher ( that speaks both languages them selves ) ,. Or as you are in scotland teach your wife to say in a scottish accent " see you. if your tekkin the piss outta me ill stick one on ya jimmy "

Now that you mention it i do wonder why the thais do not pick up the accent of the teacher ? My wife learned her english from italian priests at her catholic school she stayed at. But she speaks with an american accent and did so when I met her. I never had to use pidgeon with her but i did have to rephrase my comments using easier words. Other thais i will use pidgeon and thai together if it is apparent they do not understand when i speak english.