The Constitutional Tribunal Disbands Thai Rak Thai - Election cheating

[Plus]

Lots of pages since yesterday...

So I used pronoun "it", as in "it was called illegal" and Colpyat have spent five pages arguing over this "it" - was it a snap decision, was it house dissolution, was it call for elections, was it timing of the elections?

Don't you have better things to do than argue semantics? If you talk about legality - Democrats boycott was legal, end of the argument.

At the time of the boycott elections were legal. At the time of the vote itself, elections were still legal, but right from the start they were ethically wrong. Later on, when the court annuled them, everyone protesting elections in one form or another was justified, inlcuding the guy who tore up ballot papers, which was clearly illegal when he did it. Read up the court ruling in his case if you are into legalities.

To put the blame for failed elections, let alone for TRT's lawbreaking activities, on Democrats is unjustified.

>>>>>>>>>

Someone brought up Asian Human Rights Commission, I posted an extract from one their paranoid letters to the Nation, on Colpyat's request. That was all to it.

[sriracha john]

Suwat Liptapanlop

Tony Clifton News Services

*sorry to repost this yet again, but I just like this photo. Pulitzer Prize-winning level work from Tony in the category of News Photography.*

Matchima, Suwat, Phinij who have all ruled out staying with TRT control up to about one third of previous TRT MPs scattered over the central region, lower north, northern Isaan and Korat. We have already seen Sonthaya and earlier Snoh leave TRT plus some more independent MPs from the lower North. Is it possible that TRT is now starting to break up back into the original parties and party factions it came from?

I would say it's getting even more fractured... into even smaller pieces from whence they came.

[younghusband]

Don't you have better things to do than argue semantics? If you talk about legality - Democrats boycott was legal, end of the argument.

Classic use of semantics! The use of the prescriptive definition "if you talk about legality" and the consequent but misleading conclusion "end of argument".Nice one Plus but best leave this sort of thing to precocious first year undergraduates.

What we can be sure about of course is that the argument on the Democrats boycott will continue:it's episodes like this that are grist to the mill of political scientists and constitutional historians.I find it difficult to get too worked up about this and probably would have done the same thing in Abhisit's shoes, and in the certain knowledge my party was going to lose.However it's sheer hypocrisy not to concede the cynicism and opportunism of the act, in essence thwarting the wishes of most Thais.As I have pointed out before, some senior Democrats will in private admit this was a pretty shabby episode, though they tend to justify it as necessary to unblock the political impasse.

[jdinasia]

coup is needed to restore democracy

This coup, as with all coups, was designed solely to overthrow the government. The fact that the pre-existing democracy was less than perfect does not excuse the military take over of a democratic government. The forgone conclusion now is that in the next election, the previous ruling party will have been removed and the former opposition will gain power, --- against the wishes of the majority of the countries voters. That is not democracy. That is a perversion of democracy, and is what it is seen as by the majority of Thai voters and the vast majority of the worlds political spectators.

better think that through .... since it was a peversion of democracy under Thaksin , but hel_l what would the world know? The world's reaction is just to an end to democracy for whatever amount of time it is not here .... and a judgment without any facts! They carry a bias that says even if it can PRETEND to be a democracy it must be better than any alternative!

[Jai Dee]

NLA Chairman comments on lifting political bans entirely

The Chairman of the National Legislative Assembly (NLA), Mr. Meechai Ruchuphan, insists that the lifting of the Council for Democratic Reform’s 15th and 27th announcements must have a retroactive effect and must be equitable.

Announcement No. 15 prohibits the setting up of new parties and bars political parties from political activities. Announcement No. 27 prohibits executive members of dissolved political parties from standing for elections and also from voting.

Mr. Meechai says if the 27th announcement will be revoked, the responsible authority has to determine which section will be removed and which section will still be enforced. If political parties are allowed to conduct political activities, then certain section of the announcement will be lifted. However, Mr. Meechai says lifting the ban entirely would grant amnesty to those convicted of electoral fraud by the Constitution Tribunal. Thus, the convicted can return to the political arena once again.

The NLA Chairman also says the lifting of the ban must not be selective or partial since the convicted must be punished equally.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 05 June 2007

[jdinasia]

Don't you have better things to do than argue semantics? If you talk about legality - Democrats boycott was legal, end of the argument.

Classic use of semantics! The use of the prescriptive definition "if you talk about legality" and the consequent but misleading conclusion "end of argument".Nice one Plus but best leave this sort of thing to precocious first year undergraduates.

What we can be sure about of course is that the argument on the Democrats boycott will continue:it's episodes like this that are grist to the mill of political scientists and constitutional historians.I find it difficult to get too worked up about this and probably would have done the same thing in Abhisit's shoes, and in the certain knowledge my party was going to lose.However it's sheer hypocrisy not to concede the cynicism and opportunism of the act, in essence thwarting the wishes of most Thais.As I have pointed out before, some senior Democrats will in private admit this was a pretty shabby episode, though they tend to justify it as necessary to unblock the political impasse.

sorry .... I am missing your point! .... are you saying that the fact that TRT's actions were illegal and the Demo's actions were legal are just semantics?

I'd agree that the Demo's did good and they did it to break the political impasse.

but basically you can bring it down to the point that blaming the Demo's for a boycott/no-vote campaign being the CAUSE that TRT broke the law is as stupid a statement that has ever been made!

[ColPyat]

They carry a bias that says even if it can PRETEND to be a democracy it must be better than any alternative!

Especially when the alternative has brought the military straight back into politics, and has achieved nothing but the dismantling of what was there on democratic institutions by superimposing control mechanisms that are only answerable to the military and not the parliament beyond the next elections, whenever that may be.

But no, we won't talk about that...

[ColPyat]

I'd agree that the Demo's did good and they did it to break the political impasse.

...and achieved nothing but a worse political impasse leading to a military coup, where a social sector that was made to lose a lot of their power 15 years ago through the blood of so many Thais spilled over decades was given the opportunity to regain all, under the pretense to "bring back democracy" though initiating more dictatorial measures than even Thaksin.

How long will it take for the fanatical Thaksin opponents to finally look at these very uncomfortable facts?

[A_Traveller]

Keep repeating something does not make it true.

1. The actions of the opposition parties were adjudged constitutional both at the time and subsequently.
   
2. The actions of Thaksin, as individual and as PM led to the position.
   
3. The actions of both the EC and TRT were adjudged to be unconstitutional.
   

Regards

[ColPyat]

Keep repeating something does not make it true.

1. The actions of the opposition parties were adjudged constitutional both at the time and subsequently.
   
2. The actions of Thaksin, as individual and as PM led to the position.
   
3. The actions of both the EC and TRT were adjudged to be unconstitutional.
   

Regards

And a far worse infraction of the constitution, a military coup and subsequent dismantling of the constitution, is not even brought to trial.

The letter of the law may have been followed in the process of the court cases (even though there is debate on this as well - the verdict on the election at the time was 8 against 6 vote including speculations and yet unproven allegations of interference similar to the verdict for Thaksin during the assets concealment case, and the recent verdict of the dismantling of TRT has been widely criticized), but it has brought us into an even worse mess.

The law so far has shown itself not to be capable of sorting this mess out, on the opposite - blindly adhering to it without accepting its limitations has brought us into an even worse mess.

[jdinasia]

I'd agree that the Demo's did good and they did it to break the political impasse.

...and achieved nothing but a worse political impasse leading to a military coup, where a social sector that was made to lose a lot of their power 15 years ago through the blood of so many Thais spilled over decades was given the opportunity to regain all, under the pretense to "bring back democracy" though initiating more dictatorial measures than even Thaksin.

How long will it take for the fanatical Thaksin opponents to finally look at these very uncomfortable facts?

not uncomfortable and not facts ... in fact they are opinions ...

This not-so-fanatical Thaksin opponent was only an opponent after his second election. When where I am living quit being a democracy of any form and became an elected dictatorship.

facts in these discussions are small and often relevant ... but most things stated as facts are actually only opinions .... since we all have opinions and most of them based upon both knowledge/research AND our personal worldviews ... nothing short of a changed worldview OR new knowledge (not some story that can't be verified ... but knowledge!) will change anybody's mind

[hammered]

I wonder if we can get back onto topic instead of having pointless and boring rows over whether Thaksin, TRT, Dems or coupists are the worst when nobodies opinion is altered in the slightest.

There are interesting developments going on right now as it seems there is a realignment of ex-TRT politicians taking place and an impending loosening of controls over political parties as we move closer to a charter referendum and then the elections.

[sriracha john]

I wonder if we can get back onto topic instead of having pointless and boring rows over whether Thaksin, TRT, Dems or coupists are the worst when nobodies opinion is altered in the slightest.

There are interesting developments going on right now as it seems there is a realignment of ex-TRT politicians taking place and an impending loosening of controls over political parties as we move closer to a charter referendum and then the elections.

Agreed, it is the current situation worthy of discussion...

These discussions regarding the Democrat boycott were all held a year ago and nothing new has been added nor has anything changed, despite as A_Traveller's accurately appraises,

"Keep repeating something does not make it true."

[ColPyat]

I'd agree that the Demo's did good and they did it to break the political impasse.

...and achieved nothing but a worse political impasse leading to a military coup, where a social sector that was made to lose a lot of their power 15 years ago through the blood of so many Thais spilled over decades was given the opportunity to regain all, under the pretense to "bring back democracy" though initiating more dictatorial measures than even Thaksin.

How long will it take for the fanatical Thaksin opponents to finally look at these very uncomfortable facts?

not uncomfortable and not facts ... in fact they are opinions ...

This not-so-fanatical Thaksin opponent was only an opponent after his second election. When where I am living quit being a democracy of any form and became an elected dictatorship.

facts in these discussions are small and often relevant ... but most things stated as facts are actually only opinions .... since we all have opinions and most of them based upon both knowledge/research AND our personal worldviews ... nothing short of a changed worldview OR new knowledge (not some story that can't be verified ... but knowledge!) will change anybody's mind

The powers of the newly revamped ISOC are not an opinion but fact. The deputy governors being military are not an opinion but fact. etc...

The irony of people who suddenly after the second election turned on Thaksin always bewilders me, and especially how they attack people who have had doubts about him already in the early to mid nineties, but who see the problem in a bit wider context.

These late comer opponents are often the most fanatic Thaksin opponents. Funny though that the gravest human rights violations, the initiation of his most criticized populist programs under his tenure happened during the first legislative period, and his corruption was known long before he entered politics, brought in by a later turned Thaksin opponent as well.

How long will it take now that you turn junta opponent?

Edited June 5, 2007 by ColPyat

[ColPyat]

Agreed, it is the current situation worthy of discussion...

These discussions regarding the Democrat boycott were all held a year ago and nothing new has been added nor has anything changed, despite as A_Traveller's accurately appraises,

"Keep repeating something does not make it true."

Because of consistent misinterpretation of history we will not understand the current situation.

[jdinasia]

I'd agree that the Demo's did good and they did it to break the political impasse.

...and achieved nothing but a worse political impasse leading to a military coup, where a social sector that was made to lose a lot of their power 15 years ago through the blood of so many Thais spilled over decades was given the opportunity to regain all, under the pretense to "bring back democracy" though initiating more dictatorial measures than even Thaksin.

How long will it take for the fanatical Thaksin opponents to finally look at these very uncomfortable facts?

not uncomfortable and not facts ... in fact they are opinions ...

This not-so-fanatical Thaksin opponent was only an opponent after his second election. When where I am living quit being a democracy of any form and became an elected dictatorship.

facts in these discussions are small and often relevant ... but most things stated as facts are actually only opinions .... since we all have opinions and most of them based upon both knowledge/research AND our personal worldviews ... nothing short of a changed worldview OR new knowledge (not some story that can't be verified ... but knowledge!) will change anybody's mind

The powers of the newly revamped ISOC are not an opinion but fact. The deputy governors being military are not an opinion but fact. etc...

The irony of people who suddenly after the second election turned on Thaksin always bewilders me, and especially how they attack people who have had doubts about him already in the early to mid nineties, but who see the problem in a bit wider context.

These late comer opponents are often the most fanatic Thaksin opponents. Funny though that the gravest human rights violations, the initiation of his most criticized populist programs under his tenure happened during the first legislative period, and his corruption was known long before he entered politics, brought in by a later turned Thaksin opponent as well.

How long will it take now that you turn junta opponent?

Sorry ... but your facts may not turn out to be facts after we have a new charter and a new elected government. How long til I 'turn junta opponent'? well since I am not a proponent now ...

But in answer to your question .... after a new constitution goes to the people and gets voted on ,,, if the Junta does not schedule elections ... I will be upset

Colpyat ... your wider context is your opinion ... just like the rest of it

[ColPyat]

Colpyat ... your wider context is your opinion ... just like the rest of it

True, though an educated opinion.

Would you mind giving us a comprehensive list of books and studies on Thailand that helped you forming your opinions, please.

As to personal experience - this is very difficult to judge, as length of exposure often does not corroborate to depth of exposure. And there everybody will have his own opinions as well.

So, please, which books and studies would you recommend so that i and others might come to similar conclusions and opinions to yours?

Edited June 5, 2007 by ColPyat

[A_Traveller]

I wonder if we can get back onto topic instead of having pointless and boring rows over whether Thaksin, TRT, Dems or coupists are the worst when nobodies opinion is altered in the slightest.

There are interesting developments going on right now as it seems there is a realignment of ex-TRT politicians taking place and an impending loosening of controls over political parties as we move closer to a charter referendum and then the elections.

I have no issue with that, indeed I tried in an earlier post as have others :-

Regards

Winners are?

[jdinasia]

Colpyat ... your wider context is your opinion ... just like the rest of it

True, though an educated opinion.

Would you mind giving us a comprehensive list of books and studies on Thailand that helped you forming your opinions, please.

As to personal experience - this is very difficult to judge, as length of exposure often does not corroborate to depth of exposure. And there everybody will have his own opinions as well.

So, please, which books and studies would you recommend so that i and others might come to similar conclusions and opinions to yours?

would anyone think that their opinion wasn't educated?/based in reality?

Read every book paper etc. would be my answer ... and don't believe people that come up with unverifiable stories that support their premise but not that of other people ... while there is a chance that they could in fact not be making the stories up out of whole cloth. That chance is small and will be born out over time if it is true

Look past your cultural bias and self-interest <that takes more than most people can manage ... but some folks can do it!!>

but lastly .... note that others do share my opinions ... and I don't have to make any strange claims for them to do so!

[ColPyat]

... and don't believe people that come up with unverifiable stories that support their premise but not that of other people ...

Easily verifiable, my friend, if one makes the polite effort.

[hammered]

Trying to get the thread back on course

Political bans partially lifted

(BangkokPost.com)

The cabinet agreed Tuesday to partially lift the Council for Democratic Reform's Announcement No 15 and allow political parties to be meet and act, with immediate effect.

From: http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=119238

[Mid]

Trying to get the thread back on course

Political bans partially lifted

(BangkokPost.com)

The cabinet agreed Tuesday to partially lift the Council for Democratic Reform's Announcement No 15 and allow political parties to be meet and act, with immediate effect.

From: http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=119238

wot a difference a letter makes ............................

Cabinet agrees to life ban on party activities

The Cabinet Tuesday agreed in principle to life ban on political parties' activities, Government Spokesman Yongyuth Mayalarp said.

He said the Cabinet agreed to annual the first article of the Announcement No 15, after which political parties would be able to resume activities.

The Nation

June 5, 2007 : Last updated 02:56 pm (Thai local time)

[hammered]

Trying to get the thread back on course

Political bans partially lifted

(BangkokPost.com)

The cabinet agreed Tuesday to partially lift the Council for Democratic Reform's Announcement No 15 and allow political parties to be meet and act, with immediate effect.

From: http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=119238

wot a difference a letter makes ............................

Cabinet agrees to life ban on party activities

The Cabinet Tuesday agreed in principle to life ban on political parties' activities, Government Spokesman Yongyuth Mayalarp said.

He said the Cabinet agreed to annual the first article of the Announcement No 15, after which political parties would be able to resume activities.

The Nation

June 5, 2007 : Last updated 02:56 pm (Thai local time)

good to have some light relief on this thread

[sriracha john]

Ban On Political Party Activities Lifted

[Jai Dee]

Dr. Poldej recommends Cabinet to loosen political tension

Social Development and Human Security Minister Poldej Pinprateep has proposed for the Cabinet to issue a resolution to ease the political tension instead of lifting the 15th and 27th announcements of the Council for Democratic Reform (CDR).

Dr. Poldej says his proposal would be appropriate and both CDR’s announcements do not have to be withdrawn entirely. He says the Cabinet may approved a proposal to allow political parties to conduct political activities moderately. Besides, if the 27th announcement is entirely revoked, it will affect the Constitutional Tribunal’s verdict on the party dissolution case. Dr. Poldej also considers the rally against the verdict as a common psychological reaction.

The minister says the former 111 top executives of the Thai Rak Thai Party who have been barred from politics deserve moral supports, and they can pursue political careers in future. During this period, they should regain composure while being useful to the general public.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 05 June 2007

[sriracha john]

Agreed, it is the current situation worthy of discussion...

These discussions regarding the Democrat boycott were all held a year ago and nothing new has been added nor has anything changed, despite as A_Traveller's accurately appraises,

"Keep repeating something does not make it true."

Because of consistent misinterpretation of history we will not understand the current situation.

The history has already been written... it's in the past. People know what's what. Attempting to rewrite it is unproductive and a waste of time.

[sriracha john]

Colpyat ... your wider context is your opinion ... just like the rest of it

True, though an educated opinion.

Would you mind giving us a comprehensive list of books and studies on Thailand that helped you forming your opinions, please.

As to personal experience - this is very difficult to judge, as length of exposure often does not corroborate to depth of exposure. And there everybody will have his own opinions as well.

So, please, which books and studies would you recommend so that i and others might come to similar conclusions and opinions to yours?

Didn't we just have a moderator directing such discussions off the news forum and be discussed via PM?

[Jai Dee]

Over 50 diplomats and foreign affairs representatives attended the briefs report of court verdict the dissolution party

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs organized a briefing on the Constitutional Tribunal's verdict on the political party dissolution case for more than 50 foreign diplomats and international agencies today (Jun 5).

17 Ambassadors, 22 High Commissioners and Consulates, and 12 representatives of different international organizations attended the briefing and listened to the explanation on why the Constitutional Tribunal has ruled for the Thai Rak Thai Party to be dissolved and its executive members to be barred from politics for five years.

Permanent Secretary for Justice Jarun Pukditanakul and Permanent Secretary for Foreign Affairs Virasak Futrakul jointly facilitated the foreign correspondences.

Media members however were disallowed to attend the briefing. The Director-General of the Department of Information, Mr. Tharit Charungwat, held a press conference at 14:30 hours.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 05 June 2007

[Jai Dee]

Didn't we just have a moderator directing such discussions off the news forum and be discussed via PM?

Correct - please continue personal comments re members' qualifications and background via PM and not by public postings.

FINAL WARNING.

/Edit - one member has already earnt a 72 hour holiday for ignoring the warnings... any more takers?

Edited June 5, 2007 by Jai Dee
Additional comment added.

[Mid]

Media members however were disallowed to attend the briefing. The Director-General of the Department of Information, Mr. Tharit Charungwat, held a press conference at 14:30 hours.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 05 June 2007

you know you've been in Thailand too long when you accept all the contradictions in the above as par for the course .