Lao/thai Border War

[sceadugenga]

This one was around 1989, I've heard a few stories from people in the area at the time but there's virtually nothing on the internet about it. Apparently at one stage the US and Vietnam were eyeballing each other to see who would blink first; and another story involves a Thai general calling down an airstrike on his own troops.

I'd like to read more about this if anyone knows about it.

[Maizefarmer]

Yes, have heard similar rumours from time to time.

The Loations of course as you may well know do still have a war going on. Their remains parts of the country that are strictly "verboten" to foreigners - the Northern and Central areas where they remain after all these years still fighting the CIA's friends - the Hmong ethnic minority - who get treated atrociously my the Loation military. Not much differnet to how Myanmar treats some of it's ethnic minoroties. Differnance is, the Loation conflict has not been much of an attractive media issue. Often wondered why little concern is expressed by the international community (?)

MF

[plachon]

This one was around 1989, I've heard a few stories from people in the area at the time but there's virtually nothing on the internet about it. Apparently at one stage the US and Vietnam were eyeballing each other to see who would blink first; and another story involves a Thai general calling down an airstrike on his own troops.

I'd like to read more about this if anyone knows about it.

Try one of the modern history books on Laos by Grant Evans or Martin stuart-Fox. One or both of them give some background to it. I think it was a bit earlier - around 1987 - and primarly involved a border dispute precipitated by Thai generals logging interests. Don't think any US forces were involved, but there were some Vienamese military "advisors" on the Sayaboury side, who gave the Thai side a good run for their baht. The village it was centered around was Ban Rom klao in Pitsanuloke province I believe. There was a media clampdown on it, so few Thais ever got to hear about it, though lots of people lost relatives in the local war that ensued.

[lamphun]

General Chavalit was the man in charge of the debacle.

[ColPyat]

This one was around 1989, I've heard a few stories from people in the area at the time but there's virtually nothing on the internet about it. Apparently at one stage the US and Vietnam were eyeballing each other to see who would blink first; and another story involves a Thai general calling down an airstrike on his own troops.

I'd like to read more about this if anyone knows about it.

Try one of the modern history books on Laos by Grant Evans or Martin stuart-Fox. One or both of them give some background to it. I think it was a bit earlier - around 1987 - and primarly involved a border dispute precipitated by Thai generals logging interests. Don't think any US forces were involved, but there were some Vienamese military "advisors" on the Sayaboury side, who gave the Thai side a good run for their baht. The village it was centered around was Ban Rom klao in Pitsanuloke province I believe. There was a media clampdown on it, so few Thais ever got to hear about it, though lots of people lost relatives in the local war that ensued.

There are many veterans of the Rom Klao War to speak to.

Basically, the Thais got a tremendous beating, many casualties. Especially high casualty rate under the paramilitary rangers.

Thais were sent up a booby trapped hill from which Laotian soldiers shot down on the Thai troops. The Laotian forces were also reinforced with Cuban advisers and soldiers.

A Laotian veteran of that war once told me how sorry he felt at the time for the badly led Thai soldiers.

[ColPyat]

Yes, have heard similar rumours from time to time.

The Loations of course as you may well know do still have a war going on. Their remains parts of the country that are strictly "verboten" to foreigners - the Northern and Central areas where they remain after all these years still fighting the CIA's friends - the Hmong ethnic minority - who get treated atrociously my the Loation military. Not much differnet to how Myanmar treats some of it's ethnic minoroties. Differnance is, the Loation conflict has not been much of an attractive media issue. Often wondered why little concern is expressed by the international community (?)

MF

One of the reasons is that the Hmong aren't that nice either. Due to their military weakness and badly led troops, many of their military activities are terror tactics such as ambushes on civilians, on passengers buses and such, using bombs at markets, and also protection rackets. They are mostly financed by Hmong living in the US, and are connected to extreme right wing groups who still believe that the cold war is going on.

This is a war, like so many others, that should have been over a long time ago.

[sceadugenga]

No American forces were involved, but the Lao did so well, regardless of Cubans, Vietnamese et al, that they considered rolling into Thailand and and reclaiming some of "their" territory, who knows, maybe they wanted the Emerald Buddha back. This caused a diplomatic stand off between the US and Vietnam who both threatened to intervene on the side they supported.

[marginline]

Yes, have heard similar rumours from time to time.

The Loations of course as you may well know do still have a war going on. Their remains parts of the country that are strictly "verboten" to foreigners - the Northern and Central areas where they remain after all these years still fighting the CIA's friends - the Hmong ethnic minority - who get treated atrociously my the Loation military. Not much differnet to how Myanmar treats some of it's ethnic minoroties. Differnance is, the Loation conflict has not been much of an attractive media issue. Often wondered why little concern is expressed by the international community (?)

MF

There's no oil (is there?) that's probably why.

[wintermute]

This one was around 1989, I've heard a few stories from people in the area at the time but there's virtually nothing on the internet about it. Apparently at one stage the US and Vietnam were eyeballing each other to see who would blink first; and another story involves a Thai general calling down an airstrike on his own troops.

I'd like to read more about this if anyone knows about it.

Try one of the modern history books on Laos by Grant Evans or Martin stuart-Fox. One or both of them give some background to it. I think it was a bit earlier - around 1987 - and primarly involved a border dispute precipitated by Thai generals logging interests. Don't think any US forces were involved, but there were some Vienamese military "advisors" on the Sayaboury side, who gave the Thai side a good run for their baht. The village it was centered around was Ban Rom klao in Pitsanuloke province I believe. There was a media clampdown on it, so few Thais ever got to hear about it, though lots of people lost relatives in the local war that ensued.

There are many veterans of the Rom Klao War to speak to.

Basically, the Thais got a tremendous beating, many casualties. Especially high casualty rate under the paramilitary rangers.

Thais were sent up a booby trapped hill from which Laotian soldiers shot down on the Thai troops. The Laotian forces were also reinforced with Cuban advisers and soldiers.

A Laotian veteran of that war once told me how sorry he felt at the time for the badly led Thai soldiers.

Not surprising. Despite all the pomp and decor Thais have a pretty crappy military and a history of defeat when it comes to wars. Their soldiers would be considered undisciplined conscripts when compared to other armed forces in the region. Against the battle hardened veterans and generals in the Vietnamese and Laotian armed forces it's almost a joke.

Edited June 3, 2007 by wintermute

[ColPyat]

Not surprising. Despite all the pomoposity and decor Thais have a pretty crappy military and a history of defeat when it comes to wars. Their soldiers would be considered undisciplined conscripts when compared to other armed forces in the region. Against the battle hardened veterans and generals in the Vietnamese and Laotian armed forces it's almost a joke.

Dunno, i think it is all depending on unit.

Their Special Forces, and elite paramilitary units such as Rangers and Border Police are very capable. The problem as i see it has more to do with political and business rivalries under their generals. And of course the budget problems - while money is wasted on expensive toys that allow lots of graft, the average grunt is badly ill-equipped and under-paid.

There are some very battle hardened soldiers here, mostly from the regular border skirmishes.

[wintermute]

Not surprising. Despite all the pomoposity and decor Thais have a pretty crappy military and a history of defeat when it comes to wars. Their soldiers would be considered undisciplined conscripts when compared to other armed forces in the region. Against the battle hardened veterans and generals in the Vietnamese and Laotian armed forces it's almost a joke.

Dunno, i think it is all depending on unit.

Their Special Forces, and elite paramilitary units such as Rangers and Border Police are very capable. The problem as i see it has more to do with political and business rivalries under their generals. And of course the budget problems - while money is wasted on expensive toys that allow lots of graft, the average grunt is badly ill-equipped and under-paid.

There are some very battle hardened soldiers here, mostly from the regular border skirmishes.

I'm sure their special ops units are decent because they train regularly with U.S. SF and Navy seals and they have lots of experience with border skirmishes and fighting insurgency. The problem is the elite units are a tiny minority of the Thai military. Overall, the Thai military is antiquated, undisciplined, unorganized, and top heavy in command. It's a giant beauracracy that has its hands in too many pockets and oversees too much of the society it's supposed to be subordinate to. In a real war it's been shown to be inefficient and a lame duck. A prime example is the laos/thai border war but there are other examples such as during the Vietnam conflict.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

My wife says that she was trained in duck and cover at school and all her family had bunkers under their houses.

This was in Dan Sai.

[my friend I]

The border in the area is a small river not the Mekong. The Lao had a map drawn up by the French. Thai's had another map.

A lot of the activity was in Loei city, the closest big town. I was living there then. Everyday lots of army moving thru town.

Thai took a licking & "redeployed". Lao had/has a full time army. The guys in the Thai trucks going thru Loei looked like a bunch of school kids.

[Prakanong]

Its the most top heavy military in the world is it not with a ratio of generals to troops like no other.

Mostly conscripts who do not re-enlist and thus spend most of their time in training - how many regular troops at a fighting level do they have?

Once they have done their national service there is no annual recall is there?

Only good for killing their own people, overthrowing governments and illegal activities like drug running and logging!

[Johpa]

The incident was a minor border dispute similar to other minor disputes of that era along the Burma border fought against Khun Sa's Shan army. Most of these incidents were more for show and saving face and did not involve serious full blown military enagagements. One could argue that some of these engagements, like the incidents up at Doi Lang, were really just dog and pony shows. Of course for those who died or were seriously injured, or their compatriots, such observations will clearly sting.

That being said, usually the Thai military came out looking rather poor because, well frankly, despite having some well trained troops, these incidents were usually led my Chawalit's cigar chomping pompous generals more interested in their personal business interests. These poorly led, at the general staff level, Thai troops were not usually the cream of the crop and they usually got whooped, or suffered from friendly fire incidents. The RTAF also came out looking rather silly loosing two planes up at Doi Lang and I think a plane along the Lao border, but there is no clue as to whether the losses were due to hostile fire, friendly fire, or pilor error.

All in all these were minor incidents and not wars. They did not involve the Vietnamese, and I highly doubt there were Cuban advisors although I was not present at the Lao incident and it is possible that there might have been one or two highly amused Cubans laughing at the incompetence of the Thai military. But if Khun Sa's ragtag troops could easily hold off the Thai army I doubt the inheritors of the Pathet Lao fighting tradition would need Cuban advisors to fend off the same Thai troops.

[plachon]

Some estimates suggest that the Thai side lost about 600 troops around Ban Rom Klao. If that does not classify as a "war", then I don't know what does? Furthermore, I have it on good authority (i.e. from several Lao soldiers who fought down there) that the Thais used some sort of poisonous gas at the front. This killed some Lao soldiers and injured many more. Hardly Geneva Convention stuff, eh?

Would be interested to know if there is a military memorial built for the soldiers who lost their lives in this "little border skirmish" as Johpa prefers to call it, as there is, for example on Phu Hin Rong Kla, not so far away in Petchabun. Or does one only get a memorial if one loses ones life fighting ones own countrymen???

[kmart]

General Chavalit was the man in charge of the debacle.

Seems to be a speciality of his. Militarily or otherwise...

Perhaps his missus' astrologer was having an off day?