Power Outage / How to protect my PC

[westom]

Long before PCs existed, international design standards required brownouts and outages to never damage electronics.  One standard was so blunt about this as to include this expression, in all capital letters, across the entire low voltage area.  "No Damage Region".

 

If outages or brownouts cause damage, then cited is a parameter from datasheets that define the 'at risk' part.  No number will be posted because none exist.  If that number did exist, it is listed in the "Absolute Maximum Parameters".  Nothing there.  Outages and brownouts do not damage electronics.

 

Voltage can drop so low that incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity.  Even voltages that low are perfectly good for all electronics.  If voltage drops lower, then electronics simply power off - no damage (except to unsaved data).

 

If voltages are varying that much, then protection must be installed on less robust appliances - ie refrigerator, central air, garage door opener, furnace, washing machine.  

 

Incandescent bulbs can dim to 50% intensity or double intensity. Those are required to be perfectly good voltages for all electronics.  If your electronics power off or fail at such voltages, then why did one spend so much money on <deleted>?

 

UPS is temporary and 'dirty' power so that unsaved data can be saved.  It does nothing to protect hardware or saved data.  Power can be so 'dirty' that UPS manufacturers will (quietly) recommend not powering protector strips or motorized appliances.  Since those less robust items might be harmed.  But again, that same dirty power is ideal for electronics.  Electronics are required to be so more robust.

 

Another urban myth is a protector to somehow 'fix' low voltages.  Protectors have a let-through voltage.  Maybe 330 volts or above 500 volts.  That means it does absolutely nothing until AC voltages well exceed those numbers.  How often is your AC mains approaching or exceeding 1000 volts?  Then why is protection not on a dishwasher, all clock radios, furnace,  RCDs, LED & CFL bulbs, washing machine, stove, and smoke detectors?  How many have failed today or this year?  Or are they on invisible protectors?

 

Destructive transients are quite rare.  Maybe one in seven years.  Many do not suffer one in 20 years.  But when it exists, it is incoming to everything.  Educated consumers earth one 'whole house' protector to protect everything.  It comes with numbers that claim protection even from direct lightning strikes.  Because is connects low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to single point earth ground. 

 

Effective protection always answers this question.  Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?  How many joules does that protector claim to protect from?  Thousands?  How many joules does that UPS claim to protect from? Hundreds?

 

They market to consumers who want to be scammed.  Who ignore all numbers.  Who fail to learn how protection from all surges (including direct lightning strikes) was done over 100 years ago.

 

Two completely different and unrelated anomalies.  Outages and brownouts are completely different from surges.  Both are made mostly irrelevant by protection already inside all electronics.  Concern is for that rare anomaly that might overwhelm what is already robust (best) protection at electronics (inside electronics) - from brownouts and from surges.

 

[recom273]

44 minutes ago, westom said:

Long before PCs existed, international design standards required brownouts and outages to never damage electronics.  One standard was so blunt about this as to include this expression, in all capital letters, across the entire low voltage area.  "No Damage Region".

 

If outages or brownouts cause damage, then cited is a parameter from datasheets that define the 'at risk' part.  No number will be posted because none exist.  If that number did exist, it is listed in the "Absolute Maximum Parameters".  Nothing there.  Outages and brownouts do not damage electronics.

 

Voltage can drop so low that incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity.  Even voltages that low are perfectly good for all electronics.  If voltage drops lower, then electronics simply power off - no damage (except to unsaved data).

 

If voltages are varying that much, then protection must be installed on less robust appliances - ie refrigerator, central air, garage door opener, furnace, washing machine.  

 

Incandescent bulbs can dim to 50% intensity or double intensity. Those are required to be perfectly good voltages for all electronics.  If your electronics power off or fail at such voltages, then why did one spend so much money on <deleted>?

 

UPS is temporary and 'dirty' power so that unsaved data can be saved.  It does nothing to protect hardware or saved data.  Power can be so 'dirty' that UPS manufacturers will (quietly) recommend not powering protector strips or motorized appliances.  Since those less robust items might be harmed.  But again, that same dirty power is ideal for electronics.  Electronics are required to be so more robust.

 

Another urban myth is a protector to somehow 'fix' low voltages.  Protectors have a let-through voltage.  Maybe 330 volts or above 500 volts.  That means it does absolutely nothing until AC voltages well exceed those numbers.  How often is your AC mains approaching or exceeding 1000 volts?  Then why is protection not on a dishwasher, all clock radios, furnace,  RCDs, LED & CFL bulbs, washing machine, stove, and smoke detectors?  How many have failed today or this year?  Or are they on invisible protectors?

 

Destructive transients are quite rare.  Maybe one in seven years.  Many do not suffer one in 20 years.  But when it exists, it is incoming to everything.  Educated consumers earth one 'whole house' protector to protect everything.  It comes with numbers that claim protection even from direct lightning strikes.  Because is connects low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to single point earth ground. 

 

Effective protection always answers this question.  Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?  How many joules does that protector claim to protect from?  Thousands?  How many joules does that UPS claim to protect from? Hundreds?

 

They market to consumers who want to be scammed.  Who ignore all numbers.  Who fail to learn how protection from all surges (including direct lightning strikes) was done over 100 years ago.

 

Two completely different and unrelated anomalies.  Outages and brownouts are completely different from surges.  Both are made mostly irrelevant by protection already inside all electronics.  Concern is for that rare anomaly that might overwhelm what is already robust (best) protection at electronics (inside electronics) - from brownouts and from surges.

 

An interesting essay.

 

I totally agree with a lot of your points, I think you are saying that equipment is designed to survive extremities in power (?), but I think its worth pointing out what a UPS does do, it prevents data corruption from irregular shutdowns and they provide protection from loss of service due to a brown out or power outage (as in keeping internet connection live or the covenience of a keeping a light or fan running).

[westom]

27 minutes ago, recom273 said:

... but I think its worth pointing out what a UPS does do, it prevents data corruption from irregular shutdowns and they provide protection from loss of service due to a brown out or power outage ...

UPS protects unsaved data.  Saved data in not lost corrupted by any shutdown.

 

That was once a problem if a file was being saved when an outage occurred.  The file and its older version might be deleted.  By 1990, that one rare problem was eliminated in by filesystem design.

 

Numerous hardware features means hardware works just fine or is completely stopped.  One example of those features is a voltage supervisor.

[recom273]

7 minutes ago, westom said:

UPS protects unsaved data.  Saved data in not lost corrupted by any shutdown.

 

That was once a problem if a file was being saved when an outage occurred.  The file and its older version might be deleted.  By 1990, that one rare problem was eliminated in by filesystem design.

 

Numerous hardware features means hardware works just fine or is completely stopped.  One example of those features is a voltage supervisor.

Hmmm .. I beg to differ in some cases, but your experience may be different to mine - like I have said before I have had to spend considerable time and effort to rebuild automated services and software controllers after experiencing irregular shutdowns so I prefer through personal choice and peace of mind prefer to keep server and network rack on a UPS but putting my M1 Mac mini on a UPS has never crossed my mind for the reasons above. There is also a security aspect that I forgot to mention before, in the event of a power outage my NVR is still recording and powering PoE cameras, but thanks for taking the time to reply, I hope all read and make their own minds up on the need for a UPS.

[westom]

17 hours ago, recom273 said:

... like I have said before I have had to spend considerable time and effort to rebuild automated services and software controllers after experiencing irregular shutdowns ...

So you saw a failure.  Did not discover the mistake that caused that failure.  Just fixed what should have never gone bad.  We routinely traced a reason for failure.  Even had to submit conclusions to a design review.  No outage must make repair necessary.  As required so many decades ago.

 

For example, they left a computer on for months.  When they turned it off,  it failed to power on.  So they (using subjective logic) concluded that power cycling can be bad for computers. 

 

Then I took the replaced PSU.  Discovered a bootstrap resistor had failed (maybe months earlier). That resistor had only one function: to start a PSU.  That failure was due to many hours of operation (combined with a manufacturing defect).   Not due to a conclusion justified only by observation. 

 

They made a conclusion only from observation - as you have.  You did not fix the defect.  Since services and controller must never be damaged by (what is only rumored to be) unstable power.

 

What number defines unstable power?  Perspective (ie numbers) is always included in a conclusion.  Again, a conclusion only from observation.  Outages must never harm hardware or saved data.  If it does, then informed techs locate and eliminate that defect.  Never just cure symptoms.
 

Again, voltage must drop so low that incandescent bulbs dim to less than 50% intensity.   For computers, that number is 40%.  If your voltage is dropping that low, then fix the defect.  Since a voltage that low is a greater threat to less robust appliances (ie central air, refrigerator, furnace, dishwasher).  Why fix a symptom and ignore the defect?

 

UPS is cleaner power?  Another urban myth promoted by conclusions only from observation.  Learn what really exists.  An AC utility demonstrates typical AC mains power (in a first waveform) followed by power from a UPS battery in following waveforms.  What is 'dirtiest' power?  From a UPS.  Don't take my word for it.  View waveforms here ( https://www.duke-energy.com/energy-education/power-quality/tech-tips ) by selecting Tech Tip 3.  

 

BTW, that 'dirty' UPS power is also called "pure sine waves".  We learned this in high school math.  Those waveforms are nothing more than a sum of pure sine waves.  Another example of how many are so easily scammed when not first learning how reality works.  Cleaner power from a UPS is often promoted subjectively.  Too many then make conclusions only from observation or speculation.

 

Any conclusion from observation is classic junk science reasoning.   Fix the reason for services and controllers damaged by an outage.  All electronics today must restart, without damage, after every outage. 

 

Why is AC voltage dropping so low that even electronics shutdown?  Fix that defect.

 

Well, yes, security cameras do need a tiny UPS.  And since NVRs are so robust, then dirtier power from that UPS is not problematic.  Electronics are required to be that robust - even before PCs existed.

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by westom

[xtrnuno41]

On 11/13/2021 at 11:06 AM, Dario said:

Our electricity throughout our home is  professionally earthed. No problem here. I'm a Swiss national. In Switzerland everything must be earthed.

But you are in Thailand now. So with installing ground, did they measure the resistance ?!

You can have all sockets with ground, but when ground (rod) is not properly made, then you have a fake safety.

Ground is for metal cased devices and should have 3 wires, in which 1 wire is on the chassis of the metal case.

You can still plug in a 2 pin plug, but the device shouldnt be metal then. It should be protective plastics then, which are insulators.

Like your chargers.

However if something goes wrong with the charger, there is no way for power to go to ground first.

It will find another way in connecting  line and then maybe your metal phone charging, could be a problem for you.   

Just saw a story again about a girl listning to music while sleeping and phone in charger. Electrocuted.

https://www.sanook.com/news/8251046/

But guess you will have rcbo's in your breakerbox as well.

[westom]

On 11/13/2021 at 5:06 AM, Dario said:

Our electricity throughout our home is  professionally earthed. No problem here. I'm a Swiss national. In Switzerland everything must be earthed.

Again and to be clear.  Wall receptacle safety ground is not earth ground.  For example, put a tester on that wall receptacle (to test for a missing ground).  Then disconnect earth ground electrodes.  That tester will not report any change.  Because wall receptacle safety ground is a ground electrically different from earth ground.

 

Put numbers to it.  To be effective, a protector must connect low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to earthing electrodes.  But another reason why safety ground does nothing to make a protector effective.

 

Why must plug-in (Type 3) protectors be more than 10 meters from the main breaker box and earth ground?  Being too close to earth ground makes them a threat to human life.  Type 3 (plug-in) protector must be far away from earth ground so as to not be earthed.  So as to be a much less threat to human life.

 

So many reasons why safety ground is not earth ground.  A protector, without a low impedance (ie hardwire has no sharp bends or splices) connection the EARTH ground, is ineffective protection.  Those receptacles in Switzerland only provide a safety ground; to only protect humans; not protect appliances.

 

[westom]

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Edited November 16, 2021 by westom
Removed (system double posted).

[robblok]

On 11/11/2021 at 4:21 AM, BananaGuy said:

SSDs as in plural?

 

Not my experience at all. I currently own about 10, spread through 3 laptops, 2 PCs, a tablet and a few in external enclosures and have onsold at least that many in older devices. Failure rate zero.

 

May i ask

What brand?

Did you determine the SSD failed and not some other internal component?

Did you for example, extract the SSD after 'failure' and test it in an external enclosure?

Sorry but your not that knowledgeable. You pretend to be otherwise why would you mention the SSD in the laptops, unless your laptops had no batteries those are at no risk.

 

Anyway as i use my computer for business purposes and I have lost data before I always use a UPS.

 

Also the do not turn the power off warnings you should take them to heart when writing firmware of stuff like motherboards routers or NAS boxes (keyboards too the expensive ones, hell even my headset has firmware). You better not mess that up. So while installing a program might not give you problems during a poweroutage.. it could happen (and has with me), but firmware that is an other thing and has to be done too.

 

Especially my Qnap nass wants a regular update, got a keyboard who likes firmware updates, a headset from senheiser that updates firmware and of course the bios of the motherboard. 

 

I don't collect shiny boxes but they do the trick