How Far Can Democracy Ever Work - In Asia ?

[Ricardo]

I myself come from what I'd describe as a 'semi-democratic country', where we have no contitution (just a parliament elected every 4-5 years, timed whenever the current PM feels they might get re-elected), and media-control lies in relatively few hands who seem to encourage dumbing-down ahead of informed-debate. Most of the people seem not to care about this.

I personally feel that I can live with a less-than-perfect democracy, as long as it permits the maximum achieveable freedom for individuals, including of course myself.

Looking at Thai society, and from a sketchy knowledge of other asian countries, I see a shaky semi-democracy trying to emerge from a recently-feudal past. With many problems along the way.

How far do ThaiVisa members think that any democratic-model can really take hold - and overcome whatever cultural barriers - here or in the rest of asia ?

[Mid]

How far do ThaiVisa members think that any democratic-model can really take hold - and overcome whatever cultural barriers - here or in the rest of asia ?

with education , yes

at the point of a weapon , no

one of the major stumbling blocks is the misguided belief that all men are not equal ........................

[torito]

The same problems of your semi-democratic country...Democracy is a process and most developing countries are struggling with preconditional issues, such as education, cultura, religion, poverty, corruption and others that are barriers for the development of democracy process.

Fisrt thing first. Work and food, education, health...

Thailand has all the problems of developing countries...how long it will take until a rubust democracy can be establised.....good question!. Don't think that in this generation.

[Jingthing]

If I was going to make a bet, I would say never. Thailand will never have a western style democracy. Of course, I am one of those people who thinks it is probable that our species will be over in 50 years, so best to take it in that context.

Edited June 7, 2007 by Jingthing

[LaoPo]

I myself come from what I'd describe as a 'semi-democratic country', where we have no contitution (just a parliament elected every 4-5 years, timed whenever the current PM feels they might get re-elected), and media-control lies in relatively few hands who seem to encourage dumbing-down ahead of informed-debate. Most of the people seem not to care about this.

I personally feel that I can live with a less-than-perfect democracy, as long as it permits the maximum achieveable freedom for individuals, including of course myself.

Looking at Thai society, and from a sketchy knowledge of other asian countries, I see a shaky semi-democracy trying to emerge from a recently-feudal past. With many problems along the way.

How far do ThaiVisa members think that any democratic-model can really take hold - and overcome whatever cultural barriers - here or in the rest of asia ?

1. I don't think Thailand is -yet- 'cured' from the feudal past; it's still there, with the Thai Elite....the Old Elite.

2. To answer your last question a certain form of democracy has to be 'found'...take your pick here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy#Forms_of_democracy

LaoPo

Edited June 7, 2007 by LaoPo

[Prakanong]

Did not old Harry Lee Kuan Yew argue democracy as we know it (Western) is not in line with "Asian Values" and was pulled apart in his arguments by Amyarta Sen?

Just found Sen's rebuttal of Asian Values

http://www.brainsnchips.org/hr/sen.htm

"I want to examine the thesis that Asian values are less supportive of freedom and more concerned with order and discipline, and that the claims of human rights in the areas of political and civil liberties, therefore, are less relevant and less appropriate in Asia than in the West. The defense of authoritarianism in Asia on the grounds of the special nature of Asian values calls for historical scrutiny, to which I shall presently turn. But there is also a different justification of authoritarian governance in Asia that has received attention recently. It argues for authoritarian governance in the interest of economic development. Lee Kuan Yew, the former prime minister of Singapore and a great champion of the idea of " Asian values," has defended authoritarian arrangements on the ground of their alleged effectiveness in promoting economic success.

Does authoritarianism really work so well? It is certainly true that some relatively authoritarian states (such as South Korea, Lee's Singapore, and post-reform China) have had faster rates of economic growth than many less authoritarian ones (such as India, Costa Rica or Jamaica). But the "Lee hypothesis" is based on very selective and limited information, rather than on any general statistical testing over the wide-ranging data that are available. We cannot really take the high economic growth of China or South Korea in Asia as "proof positive" that authoritarianism does better in promoting economic growth--any more than we can draw the opposite conclusion on the basis of the fact that Botswana, the fastest-growing African country (and one of the fastest growing countries in the world), has been a oasis of democracy in that unhappy continent. Much depends on the precise circumstances. "

Edited June 7, 2007 by Prakanong

[Mid]

Did not old Harry Lee Kuan Yew argue

well spotted , the same gentleman also argued against the principle of all men being equal .................

[Prakanong]

Did not old Harry Lee Kuan Yew argue

well spotted , the same gentleman also argued against the principle of all men being equal .................

There my EP not being rennewed then

[jdinasia]

I'd say that Democracy as it is in the US or even the UK is not lilkely anytime soon .... Democracy like Mexico? LOL Maybe!

Unlike many people I didn't bring in the baggage of assuming my way is best (or the way I grew up with!)

I'd rather see a benign dictatorship than a callous democracy ... but that is just my opinion!

<edited>

Edited June 7, 2007 by Totster

[lannarebirth]

Good monograph outlining the differences between western democratic values and eastern confucianism values, citing South Korea as an example:

http://www.asianbarometer.org/newenglish/p...apers/no.26.pdf

[larvidchr]

I'd rather see a benign dictatorship than a callous democracy ... but that is just my opinion!

<edited>

The dictatorship moves nowhere, the callous democracy will move forward by its very nature.

Kind regards

[jdinasia]

I'd rather see a benign dictatorship than a callous democracy ... but that is just my opinion!

<edited>

The dictatorship moves nowhere, the callous democracy will move forward by its very nature.

Kind regards

If you think that you might want to google 'the tyranny of the majority" and look at a few examples. Hard to say that this does NOT take place in Thailand and has not seen a worsening of this over recent years.

[JimsKnight]

I'd say that Democracy as it is in the US or even the UK is not lilkely anytime soon .... Democracy like Mexico? LOL Maybe!

Unlike many people I didn't bring in the baggage of assuming my way is best (or the way I grew up with!)

I'd rather see a benign dictatorship than a callous democracy ... but that is just my opinion!

<edited>

Thats a good point, something all should be aware of. Back in the 1990s in LOS I found that the general consensus amoung expats was that life was pretty decent, better than it is under the so-called democratic TRT folk. Yes there was the 97 crash, but it wasn't just LOS that got hit, everyone did.

Now we have a proper military dictatorship going on I haven't found anything affecting detrimentally affecting my lifestyle. Now the visa laws everyones jumping over and through now were brought in during the TRT administration by TRT administration. Things may seem to be in limbo with the army running the show but at least the're doing the best they can of a tough job. To be honest I think they are performing remarkably well, the economy may/may not be brilliant, but neither was it before they took power.

What you have to ask yourself is this, do you want a wooly, oversafe, overly protective laws and regulations nanny-state liability while the country gets pushed aside or do you want a more realistic looking, forward thinking, tough-love government. I for one prefer a society that rewards hard-workers lets people make their own decisions. Self-reliance is a watchword for LOS countrymen/women and many SE Asian countrys. It may be hard sometimes but life in general isn't meant to be all fluffy and nice.

Look at the Roman Empire, yes half of it collapsed (as all empires tend to do) but during the good times it had, they tended to be under a dictatorship than a democracy. In fact the Eastern Roman empire kept going for a very long time (at least 1500 years), and this was under a dictatorship. The problem dictatorships has is that if a bad person is in charge, things can get really out of hand. Also future generations will start using it as the springboard to slag down all dictatorships ever! Nobody mentions the good dictators or leaders of a country who 'did the right thing' and ruled for the people rather than themselves all the time.

The problem with democracy is that if the ruling government cannot come to a decision (due to many minds having to agree) then there is delay, dissent and upset from within. Yes democracys can work, and they are a good thing, but need a really good set of likeminded individuals that are akin to a band of brothers/sisters. Only then can you see an improvement on the tried and tested one absolute ruler type of leadership.

Democracy is a western concept not an eastern one so that it functions at all is amazing when the natural order of things leads towards a singular leader (in the East).

Can democracy function in SE Asia? Well maybe, but you need a lot of effective people running the show, they need to be doing a good job AND (critically) the support of the people/army! Otherwise out comes the army and new leaders are installed. Pack your bags prime minister its time for a fresh start

[ColPyat]

I'd say that Democracy as it is in the US or even the UK is not lilkely anytime soon .... Democracy like Mexico? LOL Maybe!

Unlike many people I didn't bring in the baggage of assuming my way is best (or the way I grew up with!)

I'd rather see a benign dictatorship than a callous democracy ... but that is just my opinion!

<edited>

Interesting - that from such an ardent supporter of the People's Alliance for Democracy... seems that the veil slowly gets lifted.

Limiting modern democracy to western civilization, especially along the lines of so called "Asian Values" is supporting authoritarian rule, regardless of west or east. What is promoted as "Asian Values" - collectivism, submission of the individual under the larger society that is ordered along strict hierarchies is not "Asian" at all, but has been all over the world, and for long periods of time, used to justify repressive and authoritarian systems of government.

The same way, the values of democracy, such as basic equality of every human and elections and majority rule can be found in societies all over the world in many ages and cultures, and religions.

Yes, democracy can work in Asia. In India it does already, and it will be an inevitable development that it will work in other places as well. It is just a question of time.

And, as another poster pointed out - it will not happen at the barrel of the gun.

[jdinasia]

Let's NOT pollute this thread with bickering ... you know I approved of the PAD because they were intent on getting rid of <an admittedly> elected, not so benign dictator

Can it work in Asia? Read what I wrote

[Prakanong]

"What is promoted as "Asian Values" - collectivism, submission of the individual under the larger society that is ordered along strict hierarchies is not "Asian" at all, but has been all over the world, and for long periods of time, used to justify repressive and authoritarian systems of government."

Exactly Sen's argument above.

I love some of the posters on here liking a dictatorship in Thailand - would they like one at home or is Thailand or even the greater Asian people not good enough for human rights and democracy?

It rally makes me think what these guys were like back home - were they right wing zealots pronouncing their views there or little mice excluded from normal social activities harbouring massive resentment which now come to the fore in Thailand and over the internet.

I suspect the latter!

[ColPyat]

"What is promoted as "Asian Values" - collectivism, submission of the individual under the larger society that is ordered along strict hierarchies is not "Asian" at all, but has been all over the world, and for long periods of time, used to justify repressive and authoritarian systems of government."

Exactly Sen's argument above.

I love some of the posters on here liking a dictatorship in Thailand - would they like one at home or is Thailand or even the greater Asian people not good enough for human rights and democracy?

It rally makes me think what these guys were like back home - were they right wing zealots pronouncing their views there or little mice excluded from normal social activities harbouring massive resentment which now come to the fore in Thailand and over the internet.

I suspect the latter!

There were times i blathered similarly idiotic views. That was when i was very young and fresh in Asia, blinded by all the new impressions, scratching along the surface idealizing and romanticizing everyting i saw here, not being able to separate between my own rather isolated happiness removed from all reality and the experience of the average people who did not have the luxury of choices i had.

It didn't take very long to grow up.

[Ricardo]

Interesting set of posts so far - I had expected more in defense of 'Asian values'.

The point about human-rights being basic is a good one, but while I'd like to see equal-opportunity to achieve what you can with your life, I'm not totally-convinced that a university-professor and a football-thug are equal.

I think it was the author Nevil Shute (no doubt amongst others) who once postulated a series of extra-votes, for people who might be deemed to have earned a larger say in their country's life. Things like overseas-travel, raising a family while staying undivorced, public/military-service to one's country, earning a degree, making a million, etc were supposed to make you wiser. It's an idea.

The problem with many examples of democracy is that it quickly turns into voting yourselves bread-and-circuses, not a lasting model, as the economy requires an incentive to work or risk-take or try-harder.

Is there an asian-values model, which can deliver a good level of personal-opportunity and freedom, without delivering dictatorship too ?

[Prakanong]

"What is promoted as "Asian Values" - collectivism, submission of the individual under the larger society that is ordered along strict hierarchies is not "Asian" at all, but has been all over the world, and for long periods of time, used to justify repressive and authoritarian systems of government."

Exactly Sen's argument above.

I love some of the posters on here liking a dictatorship in Thailand - would they like one at home or is Thailand or even the greater Asian people not good enough for human rights and democracy?

It rally makes me think what these guys were like back home - were they right wing zealots pronouncing their views there or little mice excluded from normal social activities harbouring massive resentment which now come to the fore in Thailand and over the internet.

I suspect the latter!

There were times i blathered similarly idiotic views. That was when i was very young and fresh in Asia, blinded by all the new impressions, scratching along the surface idealizing and romanticizing everyting i saw here, not being able to separate between my own rather isolated happiness removed from all reality and the experience of the average people who did not have the luxury of choices i had.

It didn't take very long to grow up.

There are a few tired old cliches about a certain population of western men in Thailand (and I DO NOT MEAN the one about could not get a woman anywhere else although if the cap fits) but they are not cliches for nothing!

[Prakanong]

Interesting set of posts so far - I had expected more in defense of 'Asian values'.

The point about human-rights being basic is a good one, but while I'd like to see equal-opportunity to achieve what you can with your life, I'm not totally-convinced that a university-professor and a football-thug are equal.

I think it was the author Nevil Shute (no doubt amongst others) who once postulated a series of extra-votes, for people who might be deemed to have earned a larger say in their country's life. Things like overseas-travel, raising a family while staying undivorced, public/military-service to one's country, earning a degree, making a million, etc were supposed to make you wiser. It's an idea.

The problem with many examples of democracy is that it quickly turns into voting yourselves bread-and-circuses, not a lasting model, as the economy requires an incentive to work or risk-take or try-harder.

Is there an asian-values model, which can deliver a good level of personal-opportunity and freedom, without delivering dictatorship too ?

Asian Values was ripped apart and seen to be a passing fad with no substance - it has appeared in the likes of "Foreign Affairs" as such along with a few other theories to be cast in the dustbin after being proven to be without substance - I think there was a who FA dedicated to a few of these.

Asian values is old hat and no longer seen as credible.

A for earning more votes than others - what if you did not like the way that the majority defined how you earned them.

Say getting more votes for staying out of the military - more votes for toiling at a blue collar job instead of earning millions chasing the number?

J S Mill also advocated a "test" to see if you should be able to vote to avoid the tyranny of the majority. I remember advocating that as a young student thinking that it would bring about a certain type of govt ie not Thatcher but how naive I was.

This can all be turned on its head - Democracy may not be perfect but its the best we have got and one man one vote is the best method.

Edited June 8, 2007 by Prakanong

[Tilokarat]

India is one country in Asia that has been successful with democracy in that governments do get changed through the vote. And the people of Burma, when permitted, do seem to know what democracy is all about. Thailand was making progress in the democratic direction, and might make even greater strides in the future.

[kmart]

Maybe when Asian governments start investing some faith in their own people. Maybe realise that the future of the country lies in the education of its people and not their exploitation and subjugation?

[Mid]

Maybe when Asian governments start investing some faith in their own people. Maybe realise that the future of the country lies in the education of its people and not their exploitation and subjugation?

word .

[bendix]

Rather than us over-fed, over-indulged, and over-here farangs worrying about why democracy doesn't or can't work in Asia, shouldn't we be getting out own backyards in order first?

The premise of the thread is arrogant and a touch racist.

Show me a properly operating democracy in the west first, then we can worry about these fellas over here.

Anyway, democracy is a fallacy. Define what it means first, and convince ourselves that it's workable and/or desirable anywhere and then the debate becomes meaningful.

[jdinasia]

Bendix ... stop it ... you might actually have me agree with you if you are not careful!

What do we want .... a government that is truly representative of the masses? Would that mean a majority of elected leaders that had limited educations? no wait, it is fair to have requirements for the officials right? If so then why not the electorate? etc etc

again a bit of research into "the tyranny of the majority' might be a good thing!

[ColPyat]

Rather than us over-fed, over-indulged, and over-here farangs worrying about why democracy doesn't or can't work in Asia, shouldn't we be getting out own backyards in order first?

The premise of the thread is arrogant and a touch racist.

Show me a properly operating democracy in the west first, then we can worry about these fellas over here.

Anyway, democracy is a fallacy. Define what it means first, and convince ourselves that it's workable and/or desirable anywhere and then the debate becomes meaningful.

Equal opportunities, majority rule, elections, additional values such a upholding of human rights and the rule of law, etc.

No democracy is perfect, most western and northern European democracy run rather well though, some in Asia do run rather well to some degree. The values transported are desirable because they are not culture specific values, but human values.

The reasons given against modern democracy and its values on the individual are the same reasons that have been/are given to support authoritarian forms of government. As one can see, there is more than a bit of resistance inside Asia as well against those governments. It does not just come from over fed and isolated westerners.

[bendix]

Equal opportunities, majority rule, elections, additional values such a upholding of human rights and the rule of law, etc.

OK ok, fair point. But those are very vague terms. What does equal opportunities mean in practice, and equal opportunities for whom? Everyone? It really needs to be be pinned down.

Majority rule too? Do you remember what happened in Florida in 2000? How different would history be in the world in the US majority had got its way?

Rule of law? Who's law? The law of the masses direct, or the will of the masses manipulated by the political and bureaucratic classes?

FYI, I'm not saying these are my positions; instead i'm just pointing out that the concepts of 'democracy' are so vague and nefarious as to be meaningless which, of course, suits the ruling classes because a politically inert and lazy general population lets such concepts be interpreted for them.

Anyway, who says they are human values? They are relatively new concepts - 300 years at most - and humans have existed a lot longer than that, most in societies more akin to what we would call benevolent dictatorships, tinged with a bit of Social Darwinism.

Interesting discussion though.

[ColPyat]

Equal opportunities, majority rule, elections, additional values such a upholding of human rights and the rule of law, etc.

OK ok, fair point. But those are very vague terms. What does equal opportunities mean in practice, and equal opportunities for whom? Everyone? It really needs to be be pinned down.

Majority rule too? Do you remember what happened in Florida in 2000? How different would history be in the world in the US majority had got its way?

Rule of law? Who's law? The law of the masses direct, or the will of the masses manipulated by the political and bureaucratic classes?

FYI, I'm not saying these are my positions; instead i'm just pointing out that the concepts of 'democracy' are so vague and nefarious as to be meaningless which, of course, suits the ruling classes because a politically inert and lazy general population lets such concepts be interpreted for them.

Anyway, who says they are human values? They are relatively new concepts - 300 years at most - and humans have existed a lot longer than that, most in societies more akin to what we would call benevolent dictatorships, tinged with a bit of Social Darwinism.

Interesting discussion though.

You sound like a left wing revolutionary.

If you ask me - equal opportunities for all. Anyhow, details have to be worked out, and are/should be under constant evolution, and cultural specifics do play a role there, of course. The basic values though, stemming from a universal human desire of self realization, are not culture specific, IMHO. So far modern democracy is the best system that compromises the right and desire of the individual, and the needs of the society.

There is no perfect system. Democracies have their pit falls, obviously, and can be abused, like any other system. "Benevolent" dictatorships are a pipe dream, i fear. For the majority of its population, i believe Singapore does come closest to it (it has though its persecuted opponents as well), but i would take it out of the equation here, as Singapore is a city state which cannot really compared to most other countries in the world.

But i think i start waffling now.

[Prakanong]

There is some Professor from the JFK School of Govt that said "Singapore the govt that works best" or something along those lines - and do they like quoting it ;-)

I do think the majority of its citizens are prepared to give up some of their rights for a boming economy and safe streets - it was very authoritarian though with opponents jailed for 18 years without trial - now they just bankrupt them with the toughest libel laws in the world.

Democracy and other values need to be adapted to the specific location but there has to be some basic levels ie universal sugfferage for say over 18's - no unlawful detention etc etc.

Look at the USa and the UK - too very differen systems. Even the paranoid Americans balk at the time we can hold suspects without charge (except in Cuba) ;-))

[bendix]

[

You sound like a left wing revolutionary.

Hahahaha . .Like I said, those arguments are not my position. Quite the reverse. When i was a student, I was a member of the Communist Party. 20 years on, I make Genghis Khan look like Mid.

Hey, who said benevolent dictatorships don't work?? You've never been to my home, have you. I dare you to say that to 'she who must be obeyed'

Edited June 8, 2007 by bendix