DE filter trick to change powder easily ?

[unheard]

8 minutes ago, Bagwain said:

PuraPool offers a "Oxy Minerale" system that uses pink Himalayan salts! Great for the skin as well.

REDUCES CHLORINE CHEMICAL USE

Powerful oxidation reduces the amount of chlorine needed to maintain a safe residual in the pool, saving you time & money whilst protecting the environment.

 

Still works in conjunction with chlorination?

[Saanim]

2 hours ago, unheard said:

I think you're mixing two different things.

Do you lick your door knobs at every opportunity?

Do you eat your meat/fish dishes raw?

Do you prefer to drink untreated/unfiltered water?

You might get away with practicing such a diet for a while...

Until it hits you.

 

Here's a much more relevant question:

what is your precise pool water chemistry readings?

You won't know unless you test it with a high quality pool water testing kit, on the regular bases.

And if you don't know for sure, what else, beside you, is swimming in your pool, then the only solution is to maintain an appropriate level of free chlorine.

You might say: why to worry, I'm the only user..

How do you know who or what might invite itself for a little swim into your pool in the middle of the night?... Some day...

No, I do not lick my (or others) door knob, neither I drink my pool water (almost). However, my pool water is treated and filtered - perhaps much better than the bottled water you buy at 7/11, knowing nothing about, but we do trust in Thailand, don't we?   

 

How do you wash your body, clean your teeth, your dishes and others? How the wife tests the water needed for cooking, boiling potatoes, vegetables. What is the precise reading of that water? 

 

I do not know how here but In our old countries we bathed our kids, even fresh after their delivery in a water not knowing the chemistry. 

(Although I have to admit when my first kid arrived with its mother from hospital, many relatives around on show, I insisted to boil the water. However when pouring it hot into a small bathtub, the special thermometer prepared there ran crazy high, finally cracked while discoloring the water into blue - luckily no mercury. OK then, let's take now the water from the hot tap and check the temperature by the elbow,  the show cannot be delayed  ????. And since that, forget the water boiling.)    

 

Also, usually the wives (not really the Thai wives here) like to sit quite a long in a bathtub with hot water ca. 40 C when the germs like to swarm, we hardly will investigate what's coming from the city water tap, will we?

 

And similarly - even if not licking the things around - what do you think what's lurking on us in an environment like the village market, supermarket, bus, taxi, school, office, etc.  Even when we lay in a bed with wife (or others)?

 

Hadn't you ever swim in a river or lake? I for myself very frequently, starting in my toddler years, my parents having a weekend cabin at a beautiful river.  Swimming also in Lake Tahoe when spending there a night on a business trip, I insisted on a swim before the customer brought me to a dinner with a show at Ceasar's.

 

After all of that - still alive, so far... 

          

  

[Saanim]

18 hours ago, sappersrest said:

totally incorrect the chlorine smell in badly managed pools is in fact combined chlorines, if you are into google research break point chlorination.

once again in a badly managed pool  stinging eyes and a shortage of breath is down to the formation of  nitrogen tri chloride  (tear gas) a reaction of hypochlous  acid   with is actually the killing agent when chlorine is mixed with water.

use google correctly and it is all  there, most university publish research papers just need to spend a little time.

low levels of chlorine are to be highly recommend if you have the time and a good test kit 1ppm is  ok with a low ph of 7.2 is possible

 

I did not speak about smelly chlorine, I have mentioned people and kids with problems and allergic on any level of chlorine. And such medical studies can be found when goggling. And they speak about the problems leading also to cancers. 

 

But I understand that the people from pool business do not like such mentioning. Same as they do not like mentioning of copper sulphate for algae growth killing, that would reduce their sale of chlorine and pH Minus (and the precise measurements for that) what substantiates majority of their sales. Then, they scare their audience with strange stories...

 

To kill not only the germs but also the algae it needs mostly more than 1 ppm chlorine with 24/7 maintaining the pH, especially in tropes with high temperatures and the vegetation around. In Europe they recommend up to 3 ppm, somewhere in USA up to 5 ppm - beside the regular chlorine shocks.  So well it's working for the water, but not for the swimmers.   

     

 

 

[unheard]

1 hour ago, Saanim said:

Hadn't you ever swim in a river or lake? I for myself very frequently, starting in my toddler years, my parents having a weekend cabin at a beautiful river.  Swimming also in Lake Tahoe when spending there a night on a business trip, I insisted on a swim before the customer brought me to a dinner with a show at Ceasar's.

I've never been to Lake Tahoe!!

It's always been on my short list of places to visit but then Covid hit.

Oh, well. ????

Regarding the water quality in streams and lakes.

You might want to look into science behind "Natural Swimming Pools", based on the same principle of self-cleaning properties as in natural lakes or mountain streams. 

[Bagwain]

1 hour ago, unheard said:

REDUCES CHLORINE CHEMICAL USE

Powerful oxidation reduces the amount of chlorine needed to maintain a safe residual in the pool, saving you time & money whilst protecting the environment.

 

Still works in conjunction with chlorination?

The small amount of chlorination is so the authorities allow it to be sold in Straya!

It is the law or you don't get certification.

The UV from sunlight soon takes it out! ????

 

Most people have "NO" idea what goes on behind the scenes!

1st hand experience beats any so called peer review! Not debunking - just saying!

[unheard]

1 hour ago, Saanim said:

To kill not only the germs but also the algae it needs mostly more than 1 ppm chlorine with 24/7 maintaining the pH, especially in tropes with high temperatures and the vegetation around. In Europe they recommend up to 3 ppm, somewhere in USA up to 5 ppm - beside the regular chlorine shocks.  So well it's working for the water, but not for the swimmers.

Here are tables from the U.S. based TFP forums.

They always stress out the importance of testing your pool water chemistry.

Since you can only determine the needed free chlorine levels based on your specific water chemistry and the installed chlorine delivery system.

e.g. for a Salt Water Generator equipped pool:

 

 

[Bagwain]

2 minutes ago, unheard said:

Here are tables from the U.S. based TFP forums.

They always stress out the importance of testing your pool water chemistry.

Since you can only determine the needed free chlorine levels based on your specific water chemistry and the installed chlorine delivery system.

e.g. for a Salt Water Generator equipped pool:

 

 

Through our long and drawn out studies in Oz the cynuric is best left below 50 ppm. Not sure if this would change depending on where you on the planet which may make a difference.

 

We also found out that calcium best at 250 ppm! Again depends on supply water etc!

I suspect this would be different in the UK with all that lime in the water! (Limey)?

[Bagwain]

1 hour ago, Saanim said:

I did not speak about smelly chlorine, I have mentioned people and kids with problems and allergic on any level of chlorine. And such medical studies can be found when goggling. And they speak about the problems leading also to cancers. 

 

But I understand that the people from pool business do not like such mentioning. Same as they do not like mentioning of copper sulphate for algae growth killing, that would reduce their sale of chlorine and pH Minus (and the precise measurements for that) what substantiates majority of their sales. Then, they scare their audience with strange stories...

 

To kill not only the germs but also the algae it needs mostly more than 1 ppm chlorine with 24/7 maintaining the pH, especially in tropes with high temperatures and the vegetation around. In Europe they recommend up to 3 ppm, somewhere in USA up to 5 ppm - beside the regular chlorine shocks.  So well it's working for the water, but not for the swimmers.   

     

 

 

Rubbish again.

Most pool shops sell copper sulphate and are quite happy to give advise on how to use. (Mostly correct)

Chlorine is not the bread & butter for the shops!

However the so called pool techs just have NO idea and keep adding it!

You have such a jaded view of the industry!

You alone have turned this forum into a debate which it is not meant for!

 

 

[unheard]

3 minutes ago, Bagwain said:

Through our long and drawn out studies in Oz the cynuric is best left below 50 ppm. Not sure if this would change depending on where you on the planet which may make a difference.

Very much surprised to hear about such a low CYA number, especially considering the Australian climate (big sections having it hot and sunny).

It's super difficult to keep sufficient levels of chlorine in the water with readings below 50 ppm of CYA  (quickly destroyed by sunlight).

[sappersrest]

Not really low levels of cynuric around 30 ppm and not above 50 are really a good and effective way of making the hypochlorus acid more effective in killing bacteria algea

Unfortunatly the most sold chlorine here contains cynuric acid, this is mainly down to some unscrupulus pool companis pushing the sale of this product with absoluty know idea who what and why they are selling it ,just keep up the sales numbers

There has inyears 

Been abig dillution of the pool industry in terms of skills and knowledge it all began years ago during the first big world reccesion with landscape gardeners getting in on the act seeing it was an easy buck

 

Then the builders got in on the act for the same reason with no idea of pool hydraulics or chemicals

Just buying packages from equally suspect suppliers just to turn the numbers over inshort the whole industry became a mess world wide , car salesmen selling hotubs etc the industry was really destroyed and just became a game of numbers, There is a wll known company on the gold coast in oz that will sell just about any one a franchise.

In the UK there is a company tha will put people on the road after a months training.

In America they advocate high level of chlorine in case little johnny gets a rash in his neigbours pool.

If you want to swim in a relitavly

Low chlori e pool Austria

is the place to go 

Below .5 ppm free chlorine. I have attended a few international conferences on pool water treatment a nd the c

oncensus amongs delegates is about the same as i have said

If you are having

Maintenace done choose wisly the knowledge is here on this forum just ask if you dont want to get to embroiled in a disscussion please pm me

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Saanim said:

I did not speak about smelly chlorine, I have mentioned people and kids with problems and allergic on any level of chlorine. And such medical studies can be found when goggling. And they speak about the problems leading also to cancers. 

 

But I understand that the people from pool business do not like such mentioning. Same as they do not like mentioning of copper sulphate for algae growth killing, that would reduce their sale of chlorine and pH Minus (and the precise measurements for that) what substantiates majority of their sales. Then, they scare their audience with strange stories...

 

To kill not only the germs but also the algae it needs mostly more than 1 ppm chlorine with 24/7 maintaining the pH, especially in tropes with high temperatures and the vegetation around. In Europe they recommend up to 3 ppm, somewhere in USA up to 5 ppm - beside the regular chlorine shocks.  So well it's working for the water, but not for the swimmers.   

     

 

 

 

[sappersrest]

I believe you live in Chiang Mai and want to meet up for coffe or beer pm me

[Bagwain]

13 minutes ago, sappersrest said:

Not really low levels of cynuric around 30 ppm and not above 50 are really a good and effective way of making the hypochlorus acid more effective in killing bacteria algea

Unfortunatly the most sold chlorine here contains cynuric acid, this is mainly down to some unscrupulus pool companis pushing the sale of this product with absoluty know idea who what and why they are selling it ,just keep up the sales numbers

There has inyears 

Been abig dillution of the pool industry in terms of skills and knowledge it all began years ago during the first big world reccesion with landscape gardeners getting in on the act seeing it was an easy buck

 

Then the builders got in on the act for the same reason with no idea of pool hydraulics or chemicals

Just buying packages from equally suspect suppliers just to turn the numbers over inshort the whole industry became a mess world wide , car salesmen selling hotubs etc the industry was really destroyed and just became a game of numbers, There is a wll known company on the gold coast in oz that will sell just about any one a franchise.

In the UK there is a company tha will put people on the road after a months training.

In America they advocate high level of chlorine in case little johnny gets a rash in his neigbours pool.

If you want to swim in a relitavly

Low chlori e pool Austria

is the place to go 

Below .5 ppm free chlorine. I have attended a few international conferences on pool water treatment a nd the c

oncensus amongs delegates is about the same as i have said

If you are having

Maintenace done choose wisly the knowledge is here on this forum just ask if you dont want to get to embroiled in a disscussion please pm me

 

 

 

 

You on the slops? Bahahahaha

I know what ya saying and I concur!! 

Arrr the Gold Coast! Old stomping ground for 40 yrs!! 

Not same place now unfortunately! ????

 

[Saanim]

2 hours ago, Bagwain said:

You alone have turned this forum into a debate which it is not meant for

???

[Saanim]

1 hour ago, sappersrest said:

Not really low levels of cynuric around 30 ppm and not above 50 are really a good and effective way of making the hypochlorus acid more effective in killing bacteria algea

Yes, that's what's I had read many times (on pool forums - not Thai) when the desperate pool owners cry: "Help, my water is green". And the kind advisers are asking whatever is he measuring and what with (did you calibrate?), what are the values, advising do this and do that, filtering 25 hours a day, stopped short asking how old is your grandmother. 

 

After 3 weeks he still crying (in case he hadn't ended from desperation over night under the green slops), you did not measure COx?, come and buy the thingy and measure it, then discovering: "you have the Cyanuric over 50ppm, so you have to take out half of the water, the best empty all". 

 

And the emptying and new water filling will take few days (the neigbours will get happy seeing their taps just peeing), however, the pools shop will get happy, new chemicals are needed... (and the beautiful sunny days are over...)

       

[unheard]

15 hours ago, sappersrest said:

Not really low levels of cynuric around 30 ppm and not above 50 are really a good and effective way of making the hypochlorus acid more effective in killing bacteria algea

Yes, the higher levels of CYA, the lesser the ability of free chlorine to oxidize "things", thus the need for increased chlorine levels in order to keep the water always properly sanitized.

But that's not the point.

The point being is that in the Thailand's hot and sunny (especially in dry season) climate there's no way to keep chlorine in the water unless there's significant level of CYA present.

Sunlight is super efficient at destroying chlorine in the water, virtually instantly if there's no CYA added.

The reason for the recommended 60 ppm of CYA or more is to allow free chlorine to stay in the water long enough to do its job.

My understanding is that in Europe and the UK in particular, there's simply no need for the higher CYA levels due to sunlight being not nearly as strong as in the tropics (UV content), plus the cloudy weather is much more prevalent throughout the year.

In addition, it doesn't make sense to discuss CYA levels without taking into the consideration other factors, like indoor vs outdoor.

There's no need for higher CYA levels in the indoor poos, or even outdoor pools that are sufficiently shaded from sunlight.

[unheard]

13 hours ago, Saanim said:

"you have the Cyanuric over 50ppm, so you have to take out half of the water, the best empty all".

Over 50 ppm, like what.... 120 ppm?

60, 70, 80 and even 90 ppm are all within an acceptable range for the hot and sunny climate, as long as you keep your free chlorine levels at 6 or 7.

And no, 6 ppm of chlorine is not a "horribly high" level to have in your pool.

For a comparison, some drinking water contains as high as  4 ppm (high limit).

[unheard]

actually the levels of chlorine in drinking water can also be as high as 5 ppm, according to this infographic:

 

 

[Bagwain]

3 hours ago, unheard said:

Over 50 ppm, like what.... 120 ppm?

60, 70, 80 and even 90 ppm are all within an acceptable range for the hot and sunny climate, as long as you keep your free chlorine levels at 6 or 7.

And no, 6 ppm of chlorine is not a "horribly high" level to have in your pool.

For a comparison, some drinking water contains as high as  4 ppm (high limit).

What was uncovered in Straya is that the levels over 50 inhibit or lock up the free chlorine levels. Hence the recomended levels be no higher tha 50 ppm! 

[unheard]

39 minutes ago, Bagwain said:

What was uncovered in Straya is that the levels over 50 inhibit or lock up the free chlorine levels. Hence the recomended levels be no higher tha 50 ppm! 

What do you mean by "lock up"?

Do you have a link?

You can read more about chlorine and CYA in the Richard Falk's white paper: https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/3831534/Chlorine-CYA.pdf

"This is why 3 ppm FC with 30 ppm CYA is the same as 6 ppm FC with 60 ppm CYA is the same as 10 ppm FC with 100 ppm CYA.

As the CYA level climbs, the FC must also be increased proportionately in order for the hypochlorous acid concentration to remain constant."

[unheard]

1 hour ago, Bagwain said:

the levels over 50 inhibit or lock up the free chlorine levels. Hence the recomended levels be no higher tha 50 ppm! 

Have seen other sources for that recommendation...

It seems the 50 ppm CYA "rule" is directly related to the failure of many owners to keep up free chlorine at the levels directly proportional to that of CYA, not because it's some kind of a maximum cut off  mark.

As long as free chlorine is kept within the range against CYA, there's no downside. (within a reason).

 

[sappersrest]

2 hours ago, unheard said:

What do you mean by "lock up"?

Do you have a link?

You can read more about chlorine and CYA in the Richard Falk's white paper: https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/3831534/Chlorine-CYA.pdf

"This is why 3 ppm FC with 30 ppm CYA is the same as 6 ppm FC with 60 ppm CYA is the same as 10 ppm FC with 100 ppm CYA.

As the CYA level climbs, the FC must also be increased proportionately in order for the hypochlorous acid concentration to remain constant."

The paper refered to is 56 years old the knowledge of pool water chemistry

 

has come on in leaps and bounds since the advent of new technology .

[unheard]

1 hour ago, sappersrest said:

The paper refered to is 56 years old the knowledge of pool water chemistry

has come on in leaps and bounds since the advent of new technology .

The linked paper itself is recent, and in it the author does provide references to many studies.

Some of the older specific chemistry studies are from as long back as 1965.

Apparently the author does not think that they're outdated!

But if you have links to the newest relevant studies, please share here with us.

Thanks!

[sappersrest]

36 minutes ago, unheard said:

The linked paper itself is recent, and in it the author does provide references to many studies.

Some of the older specific chemistry studies are from as long back as 1965.

Apparently the author does not think that they're outdated!

But if you have links to the newest relevant studies, please share here with us.

Thanks!

See page 7 of this forum, i cannot get the links to open maybe if you contact forum admin they may get them to work ,its under the subject heading of scientific papers. Good luck if you can get them to work.

I really cant be bothered to try.

[Saanim]

4 hours ago, unheard said:

Have seen other sources for that recommendation...

It seems the 50 ppm CYA "rule" is directly related to the failure of many owners to keep up free chlorine at the levels directly proportional to that of CYA, not because it's some kind of a maximum cut off  mark.

As long as free chlorine is kept within the range against CYA, there's no downside. (within a reason).

 

The 50 ppm CYA rule is what I always had read, there was no discussion about that.  However, I have never experienced that, even when at the beginning I had used the 90% organic chlorine with CYA, having a gallon for few years. But my frequent bottom vacuuming and backwashing have provided for sufficient water exchange. 

 

My initial inclination to rather low chlorine usage had been given by my raw water source - a ground water with strong iron content. Even when later I had developed a process eliminating the iron (and other metals) residua as much as possible (making use of chlorine for sedimentation prior to multiple filtration - in batches, not continually) any strong pool chlorination had not been possible. That's how I learned about other means for algae protection, therefore eliminating the pH bother.

 

By reading numerous forums I have learned what effort some do for their pools, even if not so easily affordable - and all year usable - as in Thailand. However, I understand when somebody has it as a hobby, similar as others have an electric train in the attic, so their is the choice. Remote measuring pH on 2 decimal places, filtration time automatically changed by half an hour for every fluctuation of 1 C temperature, etc.

 

For myself the pool has to serve me, not vice versa. Of course, certain effort has to be provided to have a clear water and being protected somehow against the germs. I want to swim in a water without much chemical as it is possible.  

[unheard]

19 hours ago, Saanim said:

By reading numerous forums I have learned what effort some do for their pools, even if not so easily affordable

Total lack of quality pool water testing kits makes it super difficult to achieve and maintain chemically balanced water (for an average owner).

Don't know what the pool companies here use for that purpose - really doubt they import quality kits from the first world countries.

 

[unheard]

double post

[Saanim]

2 hours ago, unheard said:

Total lack of quality pool water testing kits makes it super difficult to achieve and maintain chemically balanced water (for an average owner).

Don't know what the pool companies here use for that purpose - really doubt they import quality kits from the first world countries.

 

I have a simple testing kit for chlorine and pH. However, as I mentioned, I do not bother with pH maintaining since I do not rely on chlorine efficacy against algae.

 

Then why to measure pH? For water clarity it has no influence, neither for water health. Drinking water allows range 6.5 - 9.5 (picture from the German drinking water standard).

And when from a curiosity I sometime measure the pH it reads over 7.6, sometimes up to 8.0. 

 

Reading my low chlorine level is almost under ability of the kit.  

 

Having crystal clear water throughout whole year with my simple equipment.