The insulin half-truth spread by Jason Fung / Gary Taubes and other Keto lovers

[robblok]

For a long time I had a hard time countering the keto arguments as they have some merit about insulin. Basically insulin and thus carbs are demonized by so many diet guru's and diets from Keto to fasting to OMAD to whatever. They all blame insulin and carbs.

 

While part of what they are saying is true that insulin stops fat burning they leave out a whole lot of other information that counters their argument. While nobody will argue that highly processed carbs and sugars are bad for you and overeating of bad carbs will give you insulin problems and fat problems they went so far to put it in the mind of people that insulin is some evil hormone that gets activated by carbs that should be stopped at all cost.

 

There are many people on this forum still believing that Keto is the best way to lose weight even though studies have shown this not to be true and in house (gold standard of research) has shown that Keto does not give a higher BMR. I have always struggled to combat these arguments as part of what they say is true. I am not stupid at all and have read about weight loss and lost weight in the past. But I never found a good way to discredit those stories.

 

Now to start off I and other more moderate people are of the opinion that once you remove processed carbs and are at a caloric deficit it all does not matter much anymore and fat will be lost. Many trainers who assist people to lose weight have advocated for more moderate approaches besides keto and fasting. These guys that promote this are in great shape and so are many of their clients. Gary Taubes and Jason Fung and others that just promote keto don't seem to be in that great shape.  These are also people that make money from their speeches merchandise and other stuff. The more they blame carbs the more money they make. Their arguments need to be extreme and give a silver bullet to their followers.

 

On the other hand there are also some trainers that go overboard especially those that want easy money. Eat and train like (insert a moviestar) and some insane diet and training program follows. The more extreme the better as people seem to think this is needed it gives them faith. Its fun to see that both the keto crowd and the extreme trainers do the same thing. Go for an extreme approach as the only way make a lot of money from their speeches and youtube channels. 

 

So its hard to find good information.

 

The moderates, like jeff Nippard, Jeff Cavaliere and many others never really explained it well enough to me to counter the extremists on both sides. That was until i read the article that i am about to post. 

 

Basically it says once your exercising and eating in a deficit (and not too many bad carbs) you will be ok. Because it is true that insulin stops or lowers fat burining. The chestnut that Taubes and keto fans alike always bring up. But they forget that while it stops the fat burning your body just switches over to an other fuel and burns the fat at a later time once insulin is lowered again. Insulin wont stay elevated if you don't eat processed carbs and are on a caloric deficit. Your still burning calories even though your not burning fat. So it really does not matter one bit. The insulin just shuttles the carbs in your muscle so you can use them later and other sources like glycocen are used to fuel your body. These sources need to be replaced and are by the nutrients that insulin puts in your muscles.

 

As long as your on a caloric deficit there will always be time for your body to burn fat (as you cant spike your insulin all day on a balanced diet that is on a caloric deficit). Plus they forget to mention insulin is not the only hormone that rules fat burning there are far more. So what these guru's did is take a lil bit of science take it out of context to make money and brainwash their followers.

 

Below the article that taught me so much

 

https://persistenceathletics.com/does-insulin-stop-you-from-burning-fat/

 

 

To fully understand the carbohydrate-insulin model, you have to start with some biology.

When you eat certain carbohydrates—such as starch and sugar—they’re quickly broken down into glucose and absorbed into your bloodstream. This raises your blood glucose levels. (Also called blood sugar levels.)

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by metisdead
Edited as per fair use policy.

[KhunLA]

I eat whatever I want, using just a bit of common sense & moderation.

Very little processed food

... don't need extra sugar, hydrogenated oils, or preservatives

Easy on the pastries

... don't need scientist to tell me, the scale will

Very little alcohol

... body tells me the next day, that was stupid, if too much

Non-smoker

... 1st time trying, body instantly told me, that's a bad idea, you idiot

 

Just have to listen to your body, and don't need to pay someone for crappy advice.

 

Yearly or every so often blood work (blood sugar / cholesterol) tells me I'm doing OK, upper mid range of normal, so I'm not giving up what I enjoy.

 

I've done the insurance life expectancy surveys, both super healthy & totally unhealthy lifestyle, and only gain a few years, so not going to sacrifice my smile for so little extra time.

[robblok]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

I eat whatever I want, using just a bit of common sense & moderation.

Very little processed food

... don't need extra sugar, hydrogenated oils, or preservatives

Easy on the pastries

... don't need scientist to tell me, the scale will

Very little alcohol

... body tells me the next day, that was stupid, if too much

Non-smoker

... 1st time trying, body instantly told me, that's a bad idea, you idiot

 

Just have to listen to your body, and don't need to pay someone for crappy advice.

 

Yearly or every so often blood work (blood sugar / cholesterol) tells me I'm doing OK, upper mid range of normal, so I'm not giving up what I enjoy.

 

I've done the insurance life expectancy surveys, both super healthy & totally unhealthy lifestyle, and only gain a few years, so not going to sacrifice my smile for so little extra time.

I think you got it right, no processed foods and the other stuff like hydrogenated oils and preservatives.

 

Basically, that is how i eat make my own food and no processed carbs.

 

But i disagree on one thing, the life expectancy thing, its not about the extra years its about how healthy you are when you spend them. If you end up a diabetic or whatever because of a bad lifestyle you enjoy your last years a lot less. (won't happen in your case).

 

But hell, if people want to eat what they want drink what they want ect I won't judge them their life their body. Not my concern. 

 

Just got tired of the low carb crowd (not talking about cutting processed foods and unhealthy stuff) and it took me a long time to find an article that really captured it well.  Its about moderation and sustainability. 

 

[robblok]

https://www.stephanguyenet.com/meta-analysis-impact-of-carbohydrate-vs-fat-calories-on-energy-expenditure-and-body-fatness/

 

Meta-analysis: Impact of carbohydrate vs. fat calories on energy expenditure and body fatness

March 20, 2017 by Stephan Guyenet

Sometimes, a meta-analysis (quantitative study of studies) is just what the doctor ordered to inoculate us against the shortcomings of our own cognition.  When a topic has been studied extensively and it has produced many studies of varying quality, this lends itself to incorrect conclusions because we can find studies to support almost any belief.  This is problematic because we naturally tend to gravitate toward evidence that reinforces pre-existing beliefs, and away from evidence that challenges beliefs.  

Edited February 16, 2022 by metisdead
Edited as per fair use policy.

[metisdead]

Posts in violation of the following forum rule have been edited:

 

14) You will not post any copyrighted material except as fair use laws apply (as in the case of news articles). Please only post a link, the headline and the first three sentences.

 

A post with a broken image has been removed.

[TravelerEastWest]

A great post - a breath of fresh air and common sense - thank you for posting the link to the article.

 

Lots of people have tool kits to get their jobs done and we can use different tools for different goals.

 

Some people love meat and are very over weight and sick - they are very unlikely to become vegans who eat a healthy home made low fat diet.

 

For those people maybe a keto diet is best?

 

I have read articles by healthy vegans who mention taht a keto diet can help lose weight and do other good things for your body but their research shows that long term all cases of mortality go up for keto carnivore eaters... I am not a trained scientist so it is impossible for me to understand the research and know for sure - but for now a whole food plant based diet seems best.

[robblok]

18 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

A great post - a breath of fresh air and common sense - thank you for posting the link to the article.

 

Lots of people have tool kits to get their jobs done and we can use different tools for different goals.

 

Some people love meat and are very over weight and sick - they are very unlikely to become vegans who eat a healthy home made low fat diet.

 

For those people maybe a keto diet is best?

 

I have read articles by healthy vegans who mention taht a keto diet can help lose weight and do other good things for your body but their research shows that long term all cases of mortality go up for keto carnivore eaters... I am not a trained scientist so it is impossible for me to understand the research and know for sure - but for now a whole food plant based diet seems best.

To be honest I don't agree about that whole plant based as best. I think meat if fine. Problemen with much of the anti meat sentiment comes from all the other stuff that is consumed with meat and loads of red meat ect.

 

If you just consume chicken or pork there is no problem some red meat is also not a problem. Especially if you combine it with vegetable and fruits. Problem is that many of the meat eaters think a hamburger with fries is a good meal. That would be bad if you compare it with chicken and veggies.

 

So it really depends on what meats and in combination with what you eat it. Vegans in general will have to go through more trouble to get all amino acids as most protein from plants is inferior to that of meat / dairy / eggs. Sure you can by mixing the right veggies get the right proteins just takes more work. 

 

I have no problem with vegans let them be, i eat meat (mainly chicken) and veggies (salads and the likes) and fruits. Plus some protein shakes (not because of health but its a good way to get in some extra proteins if your in a caloric deficit).

 

But in the end just find what works for you and stick with it. I prepare all my food myself but even that can lead to problems. ????

 

Actually a bad problem happened to me because of making my own foods. I normally don't use much salt. Not by design but just did not. So i had a lack of sodium. I did not notice it untill i started to bloat and had problems peeing.

 

Also i exercised a lot (sweating like a pig) but could not recover from my workouts. Something that was never a problem before when i did less cardio. So i blamed cardio. But in the end it was a lack of salt. Added salt and bam a lot of energy and no more muscle pains and training went better.

 

I was such a fool to not having thought about salt, mainly because of the fact that they always say eat less salt. But never mention what happens if you dont get enough salt.

[TravelerEastWest]

As I said in my post I am not qualified to review the scientific literature and I know very few people in the general population are qualified although many people seem to think they know what they are talking about with a N of 1 or not much more... I took basic statistics in graduate school but it was a long time ago and you need advanced study of statistics to understand research - to judge if it is sound or not.

 

I can tell you from my personal experience that with a whole food (home based 99%) organic (grow my own fruits and vegetables) plant diet I am doing well. I do take a multi vitamin so I have Vitamin D and B-12, I stay out of the sun to avoid skin cancer so need vitamin D. Most people not only vegans need a B-12 supplement. I exercise and do light weights. All of my friends who do weights like/ suggest some heavy weights but I prefer high repps light weight - a whole different topic but maybe a fun one?

 

As for protein: simple eat lots of fresh vegetables and whole grains and legumes and you will be fine no need to keep track of what you eat. At least that is my experience and that of the the doctors, scientists and body builders that I trust. It is an old myth that you need to balance your amino acids in each meal.

 

I don't eat any processed food and no sugar or oil. Very small amounts of salt. If you are not sweating and or doing lots of exercise etc you probably don't need any salt as plants have natural amounts of salt. But I am happy with my diet and outside my family no one I know really eats like I do almost all my friends love meat and will never give it up so I don't try to influence them.

[robblok]

15 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

As I said in my post I am not qualified to review the scientific literature and I know very few people in the general population are qualified although many people seem to think they know what they are talking about with a N of 1 or not much more... I took basic statistics in graduate school but it was a long time ago and you need advanced study of statistics to understand research - to judge if it is sound or not.

 

I can tell you from my personal experience that with a whole food (home based 99%) organic (grow my own fruits and vegetables) plant diet I am doing well. I do take a multi vitamin so I have Vitamin D and B-12, I stay out of the sun to avoid skin cancer so need vitamin D. Most people not only vegans need a B-12 supplement. I exercise and do light weights. All of my friends who do weights like/ suggest some heavy weights but I prefer high repps light weight - a whole different topic but maybe a fun one?

 

As for protein: simple eat lots of fresh vegetables and whole grains and legumes and you will be fine no need to keep track of what you eat. At least that is my experience and that of the the doctors, scientists and body builders that I trust. It is an old myth that you need to balance your amino acids in each meal.

 

I don't eat any processed food and no sugar or oil. Very small amounts of salt. If you are not sweating and or doing lots of exercise etc you probably don't need any salt as plants have natural amounts of salt. But I am happy with my diet and outside my family no one I know really eats like I do almost all my friends love meat and will never give it up so I don't try to influence them.

If you mix your plant based proteins well then you CAN get all the essential amino acids it just takes a bit more work as plant based proteins are inferior (lacking a full packed of amino acids) However if you combine them well you can get the proteins you need. So you probably get what you need.

 

I had to take statistics in accounting, but I really was not talking about statistics as such. More the poor design of many studies that compare vegans with meat eaters. If you live healthy and eat meat your different from other kind of meat eaters who think a burger with fries is healthy. Point being, meat is not the only thing to look at many who eat a lot of meat have bad diets. But there are also a some who eat a lot of meat but have a healthy diet. They don't really seem to differentiate between the two. 

 

Ill give you an example if you eat meat and vegetables and avoid processed foods and trans fats, then you got a healthy diet. But if you eat a lot of meat and a lot of it is deep fried stuff and fats ect then you got an unhealthy diet. The point being that you can't lump all meat eaters or vegans together. There are vegans that are really unhealthy and healthy ones same goes for meat eaters. Many of the studies are bias and poorly set up. Its all about context.

 

As for vitamin supplements, i take them as a precaution and yes a B complex is included. I can't say if you have to balance your proteins every meal, i can only say plant based proteins are inferior science is pretty clear about it. But if the mixing has to happen on a per meal base. I have no clue, would hope not and think if you eat enough variety through the week it should be ok. But I don't know this for sure. 

 

I also don't eat processed foods or sugars, and also no trans fats. I think that is just common sense. About the salt for me i need loads of it i seen what happens once one is deficient in it. It was really bad for me. Now that i added salt im feeling a lot better. More energy better recovery. So in MY case i needed extra salt. If you think your fine and not sweating much your probably fine. 

 

I do 7k rows on a rowing machine drenching T shirts even in an aircon. (every day in the morning) and then i lift weights 3 times a week heavy ones. Again sweating a lot. 

 

As for the heavy weights vs light weights. That depends on your goals and what you consider light and high reps. I can only say I am not doing super low reps minimum for me is 8 or so. I stay in the 8-14 range. But I would say just do whatever you like and feels good. Exercise is exercise no need for it to be perfect more important to keep doing it. Even a long walk is good exercise. I just have different goals and i like training heavy (as long as i can do it safely)

 

There are people who say too much reps will put strain on your joints and cause inflammation (Mark Rippetoe famous strenght coach) But i certainly won't go as low as he does reps wise. I think too heavy can be dangerous (injury wise). Heavy with good form is not a problem. But ultimately its up to your personal preference and how your body feels. 

 

Below an interesting article about the vegan vs meat eater that points out what i mean

 

https://www.precisionnutrition.com/vegan-vs-meat-eater

 

 

That’s because your overall dietary pattern matters a lot more than any one food does.

Eat a diet rich in the following foods and food groups and it likely doesn’t matter all that much whether you include or exclude animal products:

• minimally-processed whole foods
• fruits and vegetables
• protein-rich foods (from plants or animals)
• whole grains, beans and legumes, and/or starchy tubers (for people who eat starchy carbs)
• nuts, seeds, avocados, extra virgin olive oil, and other healthy fats (for people who eat added fats)

 

[TravelerEastWest]

The article is a good one and I agree with most of it.

 

But I liked this quote best:

 

"I do 7k rows on a rowing machine"

 

I have an unused downstairs room that I am thinking about turning in to a home gym. But i will start with simple basic things first I need a pull-up bar and a bench first.

 

I have dumbbells already. I don't like tread mills instead I go out for an hour a day walking on a hill with my dogs.  

 

I like to do 100 repps of a given exercise with light dumbbells (currently 5KG)

[robblok]

12 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

The article is a good one and I agree with most of it.

 

But I liked this quote best:

 

"I do 7k rows on a rowing machine"

 

I have an unused downstairs room that I am thinking about turning in to a home gym. But i will start with simple basic things first I need a pull-up bar and a bench first.

 

I have dumbbells already. I don't like tread mills instead I go out for an hour a day walking on a hill with my dogs.  

 

I like to do 100 repps of a given exercise with light dumbbells (currently 5KG)

Whatever works best, i mean an hour a day of walking with dogs is certainly more fun then a treadmill. Im in BKK so i cant go for long walks. I just row on my rowing machine and do some weightlifting in my home gym 3 times a week. 

 

You should look at decathlon for your pull up bar. This is a great machine for little money and you can do your pull ups abs and triceps

https://www.decathlon.co.th/en/p/8503464/online-exclusive/weight-training-dips-station-900

[bbko]

IMO, there's no money to be made by telling others to just eat smaller portions of healthy food and exercise more. 

So the so called experts need to come up with some new fad diet every few years; Keto, Atkins, South Beach, Paleo, Jenny Craig, etc, then make money selling books, speeches, seminars, tutorials, counseling, blah blah blah. 

Eat small portions of healthy food & exercise regularly, problem solved (for most people). 

[robblok]

21 minutes ago, bbko said:

IMO, there's no money to be made by telling others to just eat smaller portions of healthy food and exercise more. 

So the so called experts need to come up with some new fad diet every few years; Keto, Atkins, South Beach, Paleo, Jenny Craig, etc, then make money selling books, speeches, seminars, tutorials, counseling, blah blah blah. 

Eat small portions of healthy food & exercise regularly, problem solved (for most people). 

Indeed, but most people dont want to eat less or healthy foods.

 

Same goes for exercise the fitness influencers come up with the most crazy workouts and exercises. Why because they need new content.

[TravelerEastWest]

8 hours ago, robblok said:

Whatever works best, i mean an hour a day of walking with dogs is certainly more fun then a treadmill. Im in BKK so i cant go for long walks. I just row on my rowing machine and do some weightlifting in my home gym 3 times a week. 

 

You should look at decathlon for your pull up bar. This is a great machine for little money and you can do your pull ups abs and triceps

https://www.decathlon.co.th/en/p/8503464/online-exclusive/weight-training-dips-station-900

Attached are Ginger and Max my exercise partners. 

 

I have two teenagers in high school now so I have some stress on occasion but after I walk with my dogs I have zero stress...

 

I am in the Chiang Mai area and there's a new Decathlon store so I can go and take a look thank you for the suggestion.

 

"Indeed, but most people dont want to eat less or healthy foods."

 

Sadly true. Once I thought of opening a nonprofit cafe which would have one simple whole food plant based meal a day at a low cost. My wife looked at me and said I was crazy almost no one will eat what I eat at any price... I gave up that idea...

 

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by TravelerEastWest

[robblok]

On 3/18/2022 at 8:59 PM, TravelerEastWest said:

Attached are Ginger and Max my exercise partners. 

 

I have two teenagers in high school now so I have some stress on occasion but after I walk with my dogs I have zero stress...

 

I am in the Chiang Mai area and there's a new Decathlon store so I can go and take a look thank you for the suggestion.

 

"Indeed, but most people dont want to eat less or healthy foods."

 

Sadly true. Once I thought of opening a nonprofit cafe which would have one simple whole food plant based meal a day at a low cost. My wife looked at me and said I was crazy almost no one will eat what I eat at any price... I gave up that idea...

 

 

For me weightlifting removes my stress. I work behind a computer so i need some exercise. Weight lifting is it for me. The cardio on the rowing machine that i do in the morning is just for health and fat loss. But certainly not my favorite thing to do.

 

I got a nice concept 2 rower and hook it up to an rowing app and tablet. Then upload my data to the concept website. I am happy to see that my resting heartrate and my exercise heartrate are dropping. Before when I only lifted weights and did stuff like deadlifts id be panting like crazy (still but less if really heavy) cardio did help me with that. 

 

I think cardio and weights both have their benefits. I dislike cardio but enjoy weights. But everyone has their preference.

[TravelerEastWest]

Robblok,

 

I am impressed with your charts!

 

My wife wants to go shopping in person for the pull-up station so we will go to the nearby Decathlon shop. Also one more shop I think it is called 360fitness?

[robblok]

Depending on what you want it might be a good shop. An other shop is gymware.com (makes things on order). If you need any advice let me know. But that pull up station is nice. I like it for abs and dips.

[robblok]

32 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Robblok,

 

I am impressed with your charts!

 

My wife wants to go shopping in person for the pull-up station so we will go to the nearby Decathlon shop. Also one more shop I think it is called 360fitness?

I like concept 2 rowers i think the price value ratio is great. I mean you buy one for a lifetime. It is also easy to store. But I can't really do easy sessions with it. I always seem to have to push it hard.

 

What is it your looking for ? I might be able to advise as i got my own home gym too. 

[TravelerEastWest]

I used to go to a gym in Chiang Mai called Day Gym which was great they had all sorts of equipment (no classes ) then when COVID came I stayed home...

 

So far I am walking with the dogs an hour a day seven days a week on a hill.

 

Everyday I do light dumbbells (only 5KG as I am not strong and I do a 100 repps of each exercise) I have 8kg weights also which soon I will start to use. Later I will buy 10KG dumbbells.

 

I change the exercise daily to work different muscles.

 

I also do daily lots of leg lifts and situps and similar ab work outs.

 

Not much stretching but a bit everyday.

 

I am not looking for large muscles but just overall fitness and feeling good.

 

The pull-up station was a request from my wife and kids. But I will use it if I can - at the gym I used an assisted pull up station which I liked very much.

 

After the pull-up station I will probably buy an adjustable bench. The gymware.com website had a nice one.

 

[robblok]

26 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

I used to go to a gym in Chiang Mai called Day Gym which was great they had all sorts of equipment (no classes ) then when COVID came I stayed home...

 

So far I am walking with the dogs an hour a day seven days a week on a hill.

 

Everyday I do light dumbbells (only 5KG as I am not strong and I do a 100 repps of each exercise) I have 8kg weights also which soon I will start to use. Later I will buy 10KG dumbbells.

 

I change the exercise daily to work different muscles.

 

I also do daily lots of leg lifts and situps and similar ab work outs.

 

Not much stretching but a bit everyday.

 

I am not looking for large muscles but just overall fitness and feeling good.

 

The pull-up station was a request from my wife and kids. But I will use it if I can - at the gym I used an assisted pull up station which I liked very much.

 

After the pull-up station I will probably buy an adjustable bench. The gymware.com website had a nice one.

 

Not trying to insult you or anything but people really have the wrong idea. You don't get big muscles easy. You need to really put in effort and it wont happen overnight. Its easier to lose weight then to build muscle.

 

You certainly won't build any muscle with 100 reps, (unless split in 4 or 5 reps of less then 20).

 

Also some exercises are easy with 5kg others are really heavy with it.

 

I don't know your age but there are also like straps that help you with body weight exercises if you have a bar like that pull up system i showed you. Then you have those TX straps bands and can doe body weight exercises with it. That might be something for you. 

https://www.decathlon.co.th/en/p/8559625/bodyweight-accessories/suspension-trainer-dst-100-blue-red

 

but this one you need to combine with an anchoring point.

[TravelerEastWest]

Yes, you are correct big muscles are not easy - I am not interested in big muscles- only feeling good and being healthy. Some toning would be good and small muscle gains are good.

 

Not interested in straps. I like to keep things simple.

 

Yes, I split my 100 reps into groups of 10 to 20.

 

I am 62.

[robblok]

8 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Yes, you are correct big muscles are not easy - I am not interested in big muscles- only feeling good and being healthy. Some toning would be good and small muscle gains are good.

 

Not interested in straps. I like to keep things simple.

 

Yes, I split my 100 reps into groups of 10 to 20.

 

I am 62.

The thing is toning does not exist. You exercise the same for small muscles as for big muscles. With relatively heavy weights that challenge you. The toning comes from losing fat not from exercising with light weights. The only difference between big muscles and small toned muscles is the time and effort you invest. Not the exercises or the weights and the toning comes from diet and fat loss. Muscle just looks better when there is little fat on it. That is the toned look.

 

At your age you would be challenged to build muscle anyway, what i showed wer enot straps but more a suspension kind of trainer. So you could use your bodyweight for exercises (a cheap solution for a home gym)

 

Standard id say get a bench and a barbell, but im not sure you would like that or would be able to use it. Anyway they have enough at decathlon just look at what you like. Just keep in mind even to build small muscles you need to do say 10-16 reps but the last rep must be so heavy that you cant do 3 more of them. 

 

[TravelerEastWest]

Interesting!

 

The main thng is that I am having fun exercising and feeling good...

 

I think the ideal body type would be Frank Zane not Arnold or other big guys...

https://frankzane.com/

[robblok]

6 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Interesting!

 

The main thng is that I am having fun exercising and feeling good...

 

I think the ideal body type would be Frank Zane not Arnold or other big guys...

https://frankzane.com/

I would definitely consider Frank Zane as big (muscle wise).  How he looked is not something that 99.9% of us could ever achieve. Steroids or not. The guy had good genetics, probably some steroids too. But I would consider his body muscular. 

'

I never wanted to look like Arnold, besides no matter how hard i would train I would not reach it. Its like doing biking and expecting to be as fast as Lance Armstrong.

 

Genetics count (plus of course training / food and steroids) But even if us mere mortals do all the same as these great guys we will never get there. 

[TravelerEastWest]

Frank Zane claims to have not taken steroids.

 

I have watched several of his videos and he seems like a nice person and honest...

 

What do you think of the quality of exercise equipment from Lazada like this one which costs less than the Decathlon version:

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/bg-pull-up-station-chin-up-cu102-i2505842712-s8868079192.html?spm=a2o4m.searchlist.list.19.1e04acabNAN4ig&search=1 

[robblok]

20 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Frank Zane claims to have not taken steroids.

 

I have watched several of his videos and he seems like a nice person and honest...

 

What do you think of the quality of exercise equipment from Lazada like this one which costs less than the Decathlon version:

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/bg-pull-up-station-chin-up-cu102-i2505842712-s8868079192.html?spm=a2o4m.searchlist.list.19.1e04acabNAN4ig&search=1 

I think we can forget about his claim. I mean Lance Armstrong also claimed he did not use steroids. Most of the top bodybuilders (and actors and influencers) all use steroids. Don't be fooled.  

 

That one does not have the back padding for ABs. Personally I also think its not high enough. But if you want to save money its a good thing. I find the price really low.

[TravelerEastWest]

Thank you for your thoughts on the less expensive one.

 

It is hard to tell the steel quality from a photo...

 

I saw lance Armstrong being interviewed on the Rich Roll show and he didn't look very trustworthy but Frank Zane seems like a very nice person and I believe him...

[Sparktrader]

On 3/25/2022 at 9:49 PM, TravelerEastWest said:

Thank you for your thoughts on the less expensive one.

 

It is hard to tell the steel quality from a photo...

 

I saw lance Armstrong being interviewed on the Rich Roll show and he didn't look very trustworthy but Frank Zane seems like a very nice person and I believe him...

Nice guys lol

 

Arnold used roids

[robblok]

39 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Nice guys lol

 

Arnold used roids

Most top bodybuilders (if not all) used roids. Does not make it any less impressive. (myself not a fan of that kind of size though but talking about what they have accomplished)  I think most top athletes use roids. Not to mention loads of instagram influencers about fitness who claim to be natural. 

 

I have no problems if someone takes steroids only if they lie about it as that creates false expectations. Roids not magic you still need to work your ass off and eat right. I think steroids are quite common in top sports. 

 

I think a lot of people have the idea that taking roids magically changes everything. While it certainly helps a lot these guys would not be where they are without their genetics and hard work. Steroids are just a part of it it does not mean they don't work hard.

 

I mean im sure that if you or i take them we wont be able to bike as fast as Lance Armstrong or get as Big as Arnold. Genetics, and working your ass off and talent and eating right are all needed. Roids alone will never be enough.

 

I know a guy who took winstrol (oral steroid) while he trained with me. For some reason the other guy that trained with me not on winstrol got as strong and gained as much muscle. The guy who took winstrol had a bad diet did not sleep enough. He did workout but it still did nt beat the other guy who had better genetics and better lifestyle. 

 

Steroids can certainly help, but are not magic. But a lot more magic then the supplements though ????

 

I am on TRT (low dose of test) to stay in normal high range. (of younger guys)  It certainly gives me an advantage over other people my age. Not as much though if I were to take bodybuilder doses but still useful for older guys. Testosterone is a steroid won't help much with weight loss though it will help you keep your muscles easier (if you still exercise).

 

Some people even say that taking testorone will help how calories are used (to build muscle instead of storing as fat). Not sure how much truth there is in that but its called nutrient partitioning. 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by robblok

[TravelerEastWest]

I ordered the dip/chinup station from Decathalon after looking at it in the store - good quality as in heavy metal that does not move around and the fit and finish looks good.

 

it should arrive on Saturday.

 

Now I have to cleanup my extra room and get it ready.

 

About steroids I am sure taht you are correct but I still think Frank Zane is honest and didn't take them.