Deceiving The 4 Thai Employee/foreigner Condition

[s_kates81]

helllo everyone,

I m a self employed guy and holding a workpermit working as MD in my own company.As u all know,that if we document 4 thai employees,we have to do the social insurance for them.What a waste of Money ! Right now,i have just 2 thai employees.and i m paying the money for the social insurance for them.But in order to have my visa extended for 1 year,I have to find 2 more thai names to document and do the social insurance for them.Ok,never mind.Say,my visa expires in November.So i was thinking to document the 2 more thai employees in October,so that in November,I can fulfil the immigration condition,and as soon as my visa gets extended.say In December or January,I will get the two thai employee names out from the company,so no need paying social insurance anymore for them.! and employee them again october everyyear and getting them out december or January ! Just wanna confirm Indo-Siam or sunbelt if it's a good idea !

[Dutchy2]

helllo everyone,

I m a self employed guy and holding a workpermit working as MD in my own company.As u all know,that if we document 4 thai employees,we have to do the social insurance for them.What a waste of Money ! Right now,i have just 2 thai employees.and i m paying the money for the social insurance for them.But in order to have my visa extended for 1 year,I have to find 2 more thai names to document and do the social insurance for them.Ok,never mind.Say,my visa expires in November.So i was thinking to document the 2 more thai employees in October,so that in November,I can fulfil the immigration condition,and as soon as my visa gets extended.say In December or January,I will get the two thai employee names out from the company,so no need paying social insurance anymore for them.! and employee them again october everyyear and getting them out december or January ! Just wanna confirm Indo-Siam or sunbelt if it's a good idea !

I'd be interested in hearing their opinions and your experience. There are many loopholes in Thai law and they are there to be used, in war and love everyting is allowed they used to say in the Netherlands. We do need some creative thinking in order to be able to stay with our family.

Good luck,

Dutchy

[Sunbelt Asia]

Your plan works in theory but how bout when the Thai government comes around to see the four Thai employees in your office? Myopinion is you’re just better to do a non immigrant multi entry visa with your work permit. Totally legal and no need to worry about ghost employees. Lots less hassle too.

Note: The above is intended to provide general information only. The contents do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon as such. If legal advice or other expert assistance is required, the services of competent Thai professionals should be sought. Our firm employs eight such individuals and when you come to our office, If you like, you're able to meet a licensed lawyer for your legal needs. The first meeting is always a free consultation.

www.sunbeltasia.com

[s_kates81]

you are right Dutchy ! i think so. already in thai system they force us foreigners to pay unfair taxes and a lot of discriminations.They force us to pay and they don't like to pay.

[s_kates81]

I heard that multi entry NON B visas are no longer being issued.Isn't it?

[davethailand]

you are right Dutchy ! i think so. already in thai system they force us foreigners to pay unfair taxes and a lot of discriminations.They force us to pay and they don't like to pay.

That may be true, but come on, how much are we talking per month for 2 thai employee's? peanuts, same goes for us paying too much tax as you say.

Are you better off here or in your home country?

Exactly!

just pay the legal taxes and carry on with living here with a work permit!.

Alot of farangs would give their right arm to have one.

force us foreigners to pay unfair taxes and a lot of discriminations.They force us to pay and they don't like to pay.

We live in their country, follow their rules and enjoy.

(agreed to a limit)

[Sunbelt Asia]

I heard that multi entry NON B visas are no longer being issued.Isn't it?

With a work permit in SE Asia countries or other countries like Australia, UK and USA it is before you have the work permit.

www.sunbeltasia.com

[Indo-Siam]

Hi -

I am not 100% percent sure of this in execution, but I believe this is the intended practice: come time for renewal of one-year entry permit extension by reason of employment, you must submit the most recent three month's receipts and pay-in rosters for social fund contributions for Thai employees - and Immigration will only count those employees who show up on the three consective month's pay-ins.

Suppesedly, this practice is specifically aimed at preventing the short-term hiring of employees just to meet the momentary requirement.

So - that is my input. We have followed this practice, with 100% success. But I do not know how virgorously this is enforced.

I had drinks this evening with my deepest inside contact within the Thai government. He told me that the month of July will see a very intense crackdown on low-life farang, with the intention of driving them out of Thailand. He said that this will be a campaign on par with the anti-drug campaign early in 2004, that slaughtered literally thousands of Thais. I am still trying to decide whether to take him seriously. I have had two long-term farang "associates" in Thailand approach me in the past week in order to "get legal" - both speak fluent Thai, both are married to Thais, and both have been here for more than nine years in "loosely documented" status - one has long-term contacts with members of the Thai Royal family, and the other one is married to a mid-level Thai Changwat official in the outskirts of Bangkok. Lining these inputs up, I see a potential bloodbath coming in July, for all the "flakey" ex-pat residents. I am waiting to see what happens.

I think that July 2004 will not be the time to try to slide anything past the official rules.

Good luck!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[s_kates81]

thanks sunbelt.what should i get,a mulltiple entry or a single entry NON-B? I am easily qualified for the 1 year Extension of NON B

[s_kates81]

thanks for your input steve.As u said of July 2004,then instead of driving the farangs out,the government won't be facing them getting multiple entries Non immigrant visas and 3 months border run?I think the government should rather make it easy for the qualified expatriates to get 1 year visa so that govt. can get tax from them.Instead of making them getting getting multiple entries and quarterly visa runs.No need to meet the high salary scale,no need to meet 4 employees,bla bla.what do u say !

[s_kates81]

morever.steve,is it a fixed amount salary for an thai employee that we must pay them or document them.For instance,the remaining two employees,we document the thais who are not graduated such as the office keeper,and normal sales person,and fix the salary for them 2000B per person?is it possible.About the other twos,they are real working employees and I have fixed the salary 4500 for accountant and 4000 for another sales representative.

?

[qwertyuiop]

morever.steve,is it a fixed amount salary for an thai employee that we must pay them or document them.For instance,the remaining two employees,we document the thais who are not graduated such as the office keeper,and normal sales person,and fix the salary for them 2000B per person?is it possible.About the other twos,they are real working employees and I have fixed the salary 4500 for accountant and 4000 for another sales representative.

?

Personally I doubt that this will work as there are legal minimum wages in force for thai workers. I do not have the exact figures to hand but i am sure that someone will soon.

My understanding is that he rate is a daily rate and varies according to the location. It is posted on some government website probably the ministry of labour

IE the legal daily wage is greater in Bangkok than the North East.

For Bangkok the wage comes to somewhere around the 5000 baht per month.

As it is a daily rate it would depend somewhat on how many days they worked per week whether 5/6

2000 baht per month would obviously be below that figure and should set off an alarm somewhere in officialdom. If it is acted upon is of course another story.

Also i am unsure as to the position of having part-time staff and how this would come into the equation.

i hope that the above is of some use until other posts follows

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Hi -

I am not 100% percent sure of this in execution, but I believe this is the intended practice: come time for renewal of one-year entry permit extension by reason of employment, you must submit the most recent three month's receipts and pay-in rosters for social fund contributions for Thai employees - and Immigration will only count those employees who show up on the three consective month's pay-ins.

Suppesedly, this practice is specifically aimed at preventing the short-term hiring of employees just to meet the momentary requirement.

So - that is my input. We have followed this practice, with 100% success. But I do not know how virgorously this is enforced.

I had drinks this evening with my deepest inside contact within the Thai government. He told me that the month of July will see a very intense crackdown on low-life farang, with the intention of driving them out of Thailand. He said that this will be a campaign on par with the anti-drug campaign early in 2004, that slaughtered literally thousands of Thais. I am still trying to decide whether to take him seriously. I have had two long-term farang "associates" in Thailand approach me in the past week in order to "get legal" - both speak fluent Thai, both are married to Thais, and both have been here for more than nine years in "loosely documented" status - one has long-term contacts with members of the Thai Royal family, and the other one is married to a mid-level Thai Changwat official in the outskirts of Bangkok. Lining these inputs up, I see a potential bloodbath coming in July, for all the "flakey" ex-pat residents. I am waiting to see what happens.

I think that July 2004 will not be the time to try to slide anything past the official rules.

Good luck!

Steve

Indo-Siam

This is the same tale we have been hearing from Immigration for a year now. They have started toughening on the issue of Tourist Visa's already.

[Sunbelt Asia]

what should i get,a mulltiple entry or a single entry NON-B? I am easily qualified for the 1 year Extension of NON B

If you qualify... by employing 4 Thai Employees making 5,100 a month( per 1 foreigner), having 2 million Baht registered capital with 1 million of that being working capital, getting paid the salary per month required

Japanese, American, Canadian, 60,000 baht;

Europeans and Australians, 50,000 baht;

Koreans, Taiwanese, Hong Kong Chinese, Singaporeans, Malaysians, British National Overseas passport holders, 45,000 baht;

Indians, Middle Easterners, mainland Chinese, Indonesians, Filipinos, 35,000 baht:

Laos, Burmese, Vietnamese, Cambodian and all Africans, 25,000 baht.

Newspaper journalist will be eligible for one-year renewals with a monthly income as low as 20,000 baht

then get a single entry and then apply for the extension.

If you don't meet those requirements, then look at legal ways of working, paying tax and living in Thailand. Such as having a work permit and doing visa runs every 90 days. Then you would want a multi entry visa. You still have a potential pitfall, your company will be under close scrutiny, when your work permit is up for renewal on the annual (not extension every 90 days). They are looking if it’s trading, profitable, paying tax, how many Thais are employed. These and many other factors go into their determination to renew your work permit on a yearly basis.

www.sunbeltasia.com

[Indo-Siam]

In practical execution, here is what I have observed with respect to the need for four Thai employees per farang long-term extension:

They check two things. One is the social fund pay-in receipts. So - you really must be paying in 10% of salary (5% withheld, 5% matching employer contribution) for four Thai employees at minimum wage. That is, you need actual receipts that this money was transferred to the government. They do not check what amount, if any, was actually given to the employees. I know the minimum daily wage rates - highest in Phuket, at 168 baht perd ay - then Bangkok area, at 165 baht per day. I advise our clients to simply pay 6,000 baht - meaning 600 baht per month actually has to flow to government, per head.

The second thing that they check is that an Immigration field inspector actually visits the registered office address, and expects to see you and your four Thai employees there. He will check identity documents, and take a photo of your assembled group. If you are not present when he visits, he will ask that you be summoned - and that you "muster your troops." If you have a reasonable explanation for why an employee is not available, that is OK - but he then requires that the missing individual report to Immigration headquarters within an agreed-upon period of time, to sign on at your case file. This practice applies to a certain jurisdiction - outside that jurisdiction, Immigration tasks the local police to perform these checks - and standards vary, depending on the situation.

It is certainly not official, but it is my impression that if you reasonably go through the motions, Immigration more or less expects start-up companies to have one or two shadowy employees - but by the time you have been around for awhile, you need to have created at least four Thai jobs.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam Group

[sohaib1]

Thanks Steve.I stay in Surin and i have my company registered here.The salary and daily wages here are not as much as bangkok.So i pay 4500/employee.and send the social insurance for that amount/employee.I think it shouldn't be any problem.what do u think?

[Sunbelt Asia]

Minimum wage is 133 Baht per day for Surin. So that is ok for 4,500 per month.

www.sunbeltasia.com