Funny read for the guys with Solar

[MJCM]

 

On a more personal note, I am starting to get more envious of you guys and their Solar! The ROI will be less and less

 

[Muhendis]

11 hours ago, MJCM said:

On a more personal note, I am starting to get more envious of you guys and their Solar! The ROI will be less and less

There was also a mention of PEA changing the feed-in tariff in May a few days ago. Can't remember who or when it was said but it was on this forum.

I automatically filed that in the wait and see department of Thai announcements.

If it is true and cost effective I may start looking at the idea of a grid tie setup.

ROI will become more interesting then.

[MJCM]

4 hours ago, Muhendis said:

If it is true and cost effective I may start looking at the idea of a grid tie setup.

Absolutely, but only 1 issue I am seeing is, just have a look how long @Thaifish is already waiting for his smart meter.

 

[Muhendis]

1 minute ago, MJCM said:

Absolutely, but only 1 issue I am seeing is, just have a look how long @Thaifish is already waiting for his smart meter.

 

Yes. Three years and counting if I remember rightly. PEA are not renowned for their high speed service are they.

I had to wait seven years for my proper electricity supply. That was very much a contributory factor in my decision to go off grid solar.

Maybe I should stay off grid until a smart meter is installed.

Would they install a smart meter with grid tie plus documentation to follow later do you think?????

[Will B Good]

5 hours ago, Muhendis said:

There was also a mention of PEA changing the feed-in tariff

Is that 'standing charge' for Brits?

[BritManToo]

30 minutes ago, MJCM said:

Absolutely, but only 1 issue I am seeing is, just have a look how long @Thaifish is already waiting for his smart meter.

 

So go mostly off grid like me ...............

I've split my power supply, so some items are solar and some are grid.

Showers/aircon/double socket in the kitchen running from the grid.

Everything else from solar, the batteries run out about 5am and it switches the house back to grid power until around 9am when the solar takes back control.

 

Hoping I'll be only looking at 200bht/month from the grid in future. 

[Muhendis]

22 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

Is that 'standing charge' for Brits?

I'm not sure what you mean, but 'feed in tariff' relates to the money paid by the electricity company for electricity which is fed back into the grid by a consumer. 

Standing charge is a term which relates to a fixed regular payment for having a utility supply connected to a property and is required to be paid whether utility supply is used or not.

[MJCM]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

the batteries run out about 5am and it switches the house back to grid power until around 9am when the solar takes back control.

You need more batteries

[MJCM]

1 hour ago, Muhendis said:

Standing charge is a term which relates to a fixed regular payment for having a utility supply connected to a property and is required to be paid whether utility supply is used or not.

I believe the standing charge (if I understand @Muhendis correctly) for PEA is 38.22 THB (excl VAT) per month!

 

That said that is if you are a Consumer who is classified under 1.1.2 which is  usage over 150 kWh per month. If you are classified under 1.1.1 (up to 150 kWh) the "standing charge" is 8.19 THB per mont (again exclu VAT)

 

Ps: Here they called it Service Charge

 

Electricity Tariffs Nov61.pdf

 

[Crossy]

19 minutes ago, MJCM said:

You need more batteries

 

And more panels to charge them, IF you can get them at present ???? 

[MJCM]

1 minute ago, Crossy said:

 

And more panels to charge them, IF you can get them at present ???? 

awwwwwwww shortage again, or hoarding???

[Crossy]

Just now, MJCM said:

awwwwwwww shortage again, or hoarding???

 

Loads of sellers are nil stock, if they have stock it's $$$.

 

Covid being blamed of course.

[Muhendis]

5 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

And more panels to charge them, IF you can get them at present ???? 

Not a problem out here in the sticks.

Ruangsangthai in Buriram has 330 Watt panels at 3,300 Baht. That is some price hike from 2,800 a few weeks ago and I bet it's the same stock too. ????

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

And more panels to charge them, IF you can get them at present ???? 

Just had 2x BlueTech 345w panels delivered this afternoon.

3,440bht each inc delivery.

 

And they've just upped the price to 3,800bht each delivered ...............

[MJCM]

17 hours ago, Muhendis said:

Ruangsangthai in Buriram

Did you talk to Moses there, he could maybe make you a deal??

 

A shame that Bob left!!

[Muhendis]

1 hour ago, MJCM said:

Did you talk to Moses there, he could maybe make you a deal??

 

A shame that Bob left!!

Ha Ha

Moses is a good fellow and as helpful as can be but everything I ask him for (because I can't find it) he hasn't got but he can sell me something irrelevantly similar.

[Bandersnatch]

On 3/18/2022 at 4:48 PM, MJCM said:

awwwwwwww shortage again, or hoarding???

????

[Sparktrader]

Solar watch here

[bluejets]

Usually, what goes up in charges, rarely ,if ever, comes down again.

 

Not so with the feed back rate as it has shown to be in Aus.

 

Rate varied and at times went up to around the 10 cent/unit level when gov was pushing for people to install systems.

 

Every July or therabouts, it is re-hashed now down to a lower level, currently around 6.5c/unit.

 

Feed rate is around 20c/unit standard domestic power, 15c for off peak hot water tarif.

 

This is apart from the few who invested large sums initially way back when solar first took off and have a feed back rate of around 44c/unit. (Pollies made a whopping stuff up there)

Most could only afford a 1.5Kw system back then.

This 44c scheme is due to finish very soon.

 

Just saying, thoughts of installing grid tie based on feed back rate at any one time should be aware it can and does, go down.

I get around it in a small fashion by having storage hot water unit on the grid power but disconnect with a timer between the hours of 4pm and 9am next day. There is the odd day when it rains and low solar is produced but overall ok.

[Crossy]

In some areas Oz the supply authorities are also implementing curtailment on domestic solar, the supply authority can turn off export from your solar without your knowledge so you are still making energy, but are neither using nor selling it!

 

 https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2022-02-16/solar-how-is-it-affected-by-renewable-energy-curtailment/100830738

 

A number of mates in Oz have had this problem, many are investigating moving to hybrid systems with local storage rather than grid export/import and taking back control of their energy supplies.

ROI on a hybrid vs export/import isn't wonderful although with the cost of batteries decreasing it's getting better and when curtailment is taken into account it becomes even more attractive (and you have the advantage of UPS functionality so no power cuts).

[KhunLA]

And I thought the USA was F'd up.  So they are forcing people to buy electric, even though they don't need or want to ... ????

 

I guess banning 'off grid' isn't too far away.

 

Y'all elected these people to represent you ... 

Guess I don't even have to ask if there's a law against collecting 'free' rain water ????

[Muhendis]

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:

And I thought the USA was F'd up.  So they are forcing people to buy electric, even though they don't need or want to ... ????

 

I guess banning 'off grid' isn't too far away.

 

Y'all elected these people to represent you ... 

Guess I don't even have to ask if there's a law against collecting 'free' rain water ????

That's one way of looking at it.

 

The problem seems to be that the inverters will send power to the grid at a set voltage which can only happen when the grid voltage is lower than the inverter output voltage. As grid demand becomes less so the grid voltage will rise and at some point will be higher than the inverter output voltage. I think the grid then supplies the inverter/house. People in this situation could apply a bit of ingenuity by fitting a relay to their grid connection which would close to only allow inverter power to go out and open to stop grid power from coming in.  

 

Where the politicians should get involved is controlling the grid generation of fossil fuel electricity.

About 75% of Australian electricity is made by burning coal. That in a country which is well placed for generating solar power. Australia, along with many other countries, is more interested in making big bucks from coal than from helping folks improve the environment.

[bluejets]

On 3/20/2022 at 9:54 AM, Crossy said:

In some areas Oz the supply authorities are also implementing curtailment on domestic solar, the supply authority can turn off export from your solar without your knowledge so you are still making energy, but are neither using nor selling it!

 

 https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2022-02-16/solar-how-is-it-affected-by-renewable-energy-curtailment/100830738

 

A number of mates in Oz have had this problem, many are investigating moving to hybrid systems with local storage rather than grid export/import and taking back control of their energy supplies.

ROI on a hybrid vs export/import isn't wonderful although with the cost of batteries decreasing it's getting better and when curtailment is taken into account it becomes even more attractive (and you have the advantage of UPS functionality so no power cuts).

Most I've spoken too, even some of the larger companies who provide battery systems, seem to think it is a bad long term move going to battery.

Cost is the most obvious, along with the "warranty".

Government require in some instances a 20 year term which some well established supplier/installers tend to be a bit nervous about.

 

Same as when I first installed my system, so called warranty via the installer non existent (left town, went bust, whatever) when my inverter went belly up last year.

Luckily there was a manufacturer supplier in Melbourne who kept details and sent me a new unit.

Another one of those not what you know but who moments....????

Also as I am a registered contractor/licenced lecky, they allowed me to replace the unit and gave me $150 into the bargain for my time.

 

Ergon popped an external wireless monitor on my sw bd last year (an install I could have refused btw)  but although there is a smart meter they can switch off the feed-back, it appears so far that this has not been the case. They've been doing it for donkey's years with off peak and night rate tariff.

Can imagine why Ergon need the access and control just the same.

 

We're up in Qld. but also can't imagine them ever shutting down anything in South Aus., they need all the help they can get. Now with greenies getting their way with coal fired stations, I'd say the same will apply with solar feed back.

 

[bluejets]

On 3/20/2022 at 6:21 PM, Muhendis said:

The problem seems to be that the inverters will send power to the grid at a set voltage which can only happen when the grid voltage is lower than the inverter output voltage.

Are you SURE about this statement...???

[Crossy]

On 3/20/2022 at 3:21 PM, Muhendis said:

The problem seems to be that the inverters will send power to the grid at a set voltage which can only happen when the grid voltage is lower than the inverter output voltage.

 

Our GTIs will happily ramp up their output voltage until they either reach the available power, the set export power limit or the set maximum grid voltage. 

 

Of course if the grid is lightly loaded and thus already a bit high we run out of voltage headroom before reaching the available export power or the export power limit limit at which point any available power remaining is simply not used (and the panel voltage rises).

[Crossy]

44 minutes ago, bluejets said:

Most I've spoken too, even some of the larger companies who provide battery systems, seem to think it is a bad long term move going to battery.

 

It's definitely "horses for courses".

 

The grid can only absorb so much power, if there's more available than is being used then they either have to shut down the exporting systems, or store the excess energy. Of course one option is rather cheaper for the energy companies than the other.

 

If my system was being regularly curtailed I would certainly be looking at storing (or using) the available excess. How viable that would be based upon cost-benefit would depend upon multiple factors.

 

Here in sunny Thailand I'm quite happy to spend the $$$ which I didn't spend on a "professional" installation (which would allow me to legally export/re-import my excess) on an ESS which will let me keep that energy within the boundaries of my property and then let me use it later. I know that one day I'll end up with an electronic meter at which point the unofficial net-metering will end, so I aim at being ready.

 

As a bonus I get UPS functionality that keeps everything but the big pumps and water heaters alive when a cement truck takes out a line of power poles.

 

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, bluejets said:

Most I've spoken too, even some of the larger companies who provide battery systems, seem to think it is a bad long term move going to battery.

Cost is the most obvious, along with the "warranty".

Don't know why, cells are fairly easy to obtain.

If 1 (3.2V) in 16 (48V) goes wrong, it's very simple and cheap to replace.

 

In some countries which have different night/day rates for electricity, it'd probably be worthwhile buying batteries to charge from the grid at cheap rate, then run your house in the day. No need to have solar panels.

[Muhendis]

5 hours ago, bluejets said:

Are you SURE about this statement...???

Yes, but I made some knowledge assumptions which on reflection I should have included.

 

Why does the grid voltage vary?

Grid voltage varies because power generation has some complex issues like making sure that thousands of tonnes of turbine is kept running at the right speed (±0.5Hz in UK) and switching additional outputs on and off as and when load fluctuations dictate and as anticipated. There's nothing much any of us can do about that.

 

If local grid power requirements are high and could do with an extra 500kW or so, your little old wall mounted grid tied inverter would, to put it mildly, get very smelly very quickly and possibly die. The inverter power output is therefore kept to levels which would not cause the inverter to die. Output voltage/grid voltage difference and hence current flow will be maintained so as not to overload the inverter. It is also assumed that there is enough power from solar to allow the inverter to start limiting.

 

At a certain point, the inverter reaches it's maximum set voltage limit even though the grid voltage may go higher. That is when the inverter feed-in reduces. When the grid voltage and the inverter voltage are equal, feed-in power ceases. If the grid voltage then rises above the inverter maximum output voltage, current may flow from the grid into the inverter and charge batteries and/or power the house.

[Muhendis]

4 hours ago, Crossy said:

Of course if the grid is lightly loaded and thus already a bit high we run out of voltage headroom before reaching the available export power or the export power limit limit at which point any available power remaining is simply not used (and the panel voltage rises).

So does this mean that the grid is effectively disconnected?

Many inverters use the grid for battery charging or to run the house in the absence of solar.

[Crossy]

10 minutes ago, Muhendis said:

So does this mean that the grid is effectively disconnected?

 

No, it just means the inverter is exactly balancing its output against local consumption, so grid power is zero.

 

If there's no solar the inverter is quite happily importing for local usage and battery charging if you have it configured like that.