By raft and on foot, migrants cross Rio Grande from Mexico to Texas

Chomper Higgot · July 25, 2022

37 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

There's an old business adage that comes to mind here...........

"When a business starts to pay for things........... they go out of business."

What that means, of course, is that businesses get all the money they use to pay for things from their customers. If they start having to use their own money to pay for things, it means they are losing money!

Now there are lots of situational exceptions to this, I agree. But it is nonetheless generally true.

So, I must ask..........

Aren't the "fines & penalties" you're talking about a lot like Trump's Chinese Tariffs? Isn't it the CONSUMER that winds up paying for all of that........... not the country/business that you're supposedly trying to punish?

Now I totally agree that if we're going to take all this seriously, there needs to be a serious crackdown on employers who hire Illegal Aliens and Undocumented Workers.

But you seem to be gleefully ignoring the significant and impactful Cause and Effect consequences that inevitably come from doing this. And I see no attempt to consider what Unintended Consequences may result from using such heavy-handed and narrowly-focused enforcement schemes.

No, not at all.

Businesses that remain in business by breaking the law don’t belong in business.

If a food producer gets caught using banned substances in its food production to cut costs it gets fined, perhaps the business owner goes to prison.

The idea of holding people and businesses accountable to the law is not new.

Chomper Higgot · July 25, 2022

2 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

Well now..........

A lot of those illegal workers came to America because of the cruel and inhumane situations that already exist in their home countries. And a lot of them work like dogs to scrape together a few dollars here and a few dollars there........... so they can send a little money home with the hope of keeping their families from becoming completely destitute!

So............

While you're thinking about saving these workers---these people---from being ravaged by unfair and predatory employers............

.............are you also giving any thought to the possibility that by taking away their jobs......... we may also be taking away the only thing that is keeping the worker.s........and their families.......... out of abject poverty and destitution?

As I asked in my first post in this thread............. Does your compassion have a Nationality? Does your sense of compassion stop at the border?

Because a lot of those "Illegal Workers" aren't coming here for the life they can build HERE. They are doing it to try to save their families THERE!

Hogwash.

Providing easily accessible legal means for immigrants to do the work the US economy needs immigrants to do is not an impossible task

And away with you and your eagerness to assign to me arguments I have mot made.

I have frequently posted on the causes of migration to the US, including poverty, violence and fear of persecution in their original homelands.

You are late to the party with your newly found concern for immigrants.

heybruce · July 25, 2022

3 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Money. Meat, fruit and veges are cheap in the US because of the reliance on illegal labor. Along with farm subsidies, the illegal labor enables US agricultural products to compete internationally.

Correct. Some industries such as meat processing, might be able to increase prices to cover the cost of wages high enough to attract legal residents, but many farms could not. All over the world rich nations bring in labor from poor nations to harvest produce and vegetables, but the civilized rich nations do it through legal guest worker programs. The US should do the same.

2 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

According to this article, about 12% of overall farm costs are due to labour costs. This rises to nearly 40% for tree fruits and nuts (they are the highest).

https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor/#:~:text=According to data from the 2017 Census of Agriculture%2C wages,fruit and tree nut operations.

Now, assuming that illegals make up 40% of all farm labour, such as in California, we can do a bit of math. Let's assume that illegal workers make only half of what legal workers do. If they are replaced with legal workers, cost will rise by:

Illegal workers make up 40% of the 40% labor cost. So 16%. Now, if double that to hire people, that would be a 16% increase in total cost. And that is for the most labor intensive crops (apples, nuts, etc). Cost of food rises by 16% for the end consumer.

On a regular farm wiere labor is 12% of total cost, it would mean an increase of ... OK, assume 40% of workers areillegal, that means 4.8% of the cost is illegal labor. So again, the cost of farm goods would rise by about 5%.

Not much to pay in order for legal residents to work, and to help Americans.

"Let's assume that illegal workers make only half of what legal workers do."

Apparently you assume that doubling the wages paid will attract enough workers to the seasonal, zero benefit jobs of harvesting crops. I seriously doubt it would attract enough of them.

heybruce · July 25, 2022

50 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

There's an old business adage that comes to mind here...........

"When a business starts to pay for things........... they go out of business."

What that means, of course, is that businesses get all the money they use to pay for things from their customers. If they start having to use their own money to pay for things, it means they are losing money!

Now there are lots of situational exceptions to this, I agree. But it is nonetheless generally true.

So, I must ask..........

Aren't the "fines & penalties" you're talking about a lot like Trump's Chinese Tariffs? Isn't it the CONSUMER that winds up paying for all of that........... not the country/business that you're supposedly trying to punish?

Now I totally agree that if we're going to take all this seriously, there needs to be a serious crackdown on employers who hire Illegal Aliens and Undocumented Workers.

But you seem to be gleefully ignoring the significant and impactful Cause and Effect consequences that inevitably come from doing this. And I see no attempt to consider what Unintended Consequences may result from using such heavy-handed and narrowly-focused enforcement schemes.

"And I see no attempt to consider what Unintended Consequences may result from using such heavy-handed and narrowly-focused enforcement schemes."

To be clear, are you arguing against heavy-handed and narrowly-focused enforcement schemes against illegal immigrants as well? Or are you ok with using such tactics against the immigrants but opposed to using them on the businesses that hire them?

Also, outside of farming, most illegal immigrants are working in restaurants, hotels, car washes, yard care, and other non-essential businesses that people can live without. What's wrong with requiring people to pay more for such luxuries?

However if doing without immigrant labor does present an unacceptable risk and burden to the country, the correct response is to make it easier for immigrants to work in the country legally.

Credo · July 25, 2022

I think there is a lot of confusion about how it works when employing an undocumented person. Most companies require a lot of information before employing someone. If the salary is $15 an hour, an undocumented can't really go in and say, 'hey, I'll work for $7.50'. What happens is they use illegally obtained documents to gain employment. They will be getting the $15 an hour. They will have taxes, social security, etc. taken out of their pay.

It becomes a little more problematic if a company contracts with an independent company for employees. Then the original company is not the employer, the independent company is the employer and pays the wages. In that case, it's harder to determine whether or not the independent contractor actually paid the full wages.

Small independent companies involved in jobs such as building contractors, landscaping companies and other small independent businesses can more easily hire illegals. Some of these contractors employ people as day labor.

The overall impact on wages has to do with the availability of those who will work for $15 an hour and bigger employers are reluctant to raise wages because they have a supply of workers at $15.

There was a thread that sort of addresses how this works. It doesn't identify anyone as undocumented but it shows how labor laws are avoided by a large employer. In this situation it involved employing children.

https://aseannow.com/topic/1266853-exclusive-hyundai-subsidiary-has-used-child-labor-at-alabama-factory/

heybruce · July 25, 2022

21 minutes ago, Credo said:

I think there is a lot of confusion about how it works when employing an undocumented person. Most companies require a lot of information before employing someone. If the salary is $15 an hour, an undocumented can't really go in and say, 'hey, I'll work for $7.50'. What happens is they use illegally obtained documents to gain employment. They will be getting the $15 an hour. They will have taxes, social security, etc. taken out of their pay.

It becomes a little more problematic if a company contracts with an independent company for employees. Then the original company is not the employer, the independent company is the employer and pays the wages. In that case, it's harder to determine whether or not the independent contractor actually paid the full wages.

Small independent companies involved in jobs such as building contractors, landscaping companies and other small independent businesses can more easily hire illegals. Some of these contractors employ people as day labor.

The overall impact on wages has to do with the availability of those who will work for $15 an hour and bigger employers are reluctant to raise wages because they have a supply of workers at $15.

There was a thread that sort of addresses how this works. It doesn't identify anyone as undocumented but it shows how labor laws are avoided by a large employer. In this situation it involved employing children.

https://aseannow.com/topic/1266853-exclusive-hyundai-subsidiary-has-used-child-labor-at-alabama-factory/

Maybe off topic, but it is very common for manufacturing industries to "comply" with labor laws by subcontracting the dirty work.

Long ago when I was young I worked for a company that did maintenance for a pulp wood mill. We did the work that the mill didn't want the union workers with medical benefits doing. The work was hard, dirty, dangerous (I got many chemical burns), demeaning (when I worked on the garbage truck I had to ride in the back with the garbage) and sometimes illegal (covering up safety violations after someone was killed on the job). However it paid one and a half times the minimum wage, and at the time I couldn't walk away from that much money.

I sympathize with people who will do what it takes to earn honest money. That includes the illegal immigrants.

KanchanaburiGuy · July 27, 2022

On 7/25/2022 at 11:02 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

And away with you and your eagerness to assign to me arguments I have not made.

This being something I simply have not done.

I merely responded to what you DID say........... and pointed out there are consequences that flow from your stated position; consequences that you seem to be either completely oblivious to............. or completely unconcerned by.

KanchanaburiGuy · July 27, 2022

On 7/25/2022 at 11:02 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

Hogwash.

Providing easily accessible legal means for immigrants to do the work the US economy needs immigrants to do is not an impossible task

And away with you and your eagerness to assign to me arguments I have mot made.

I have frequently posted on the causes of migration to the US, including poverty, violence and fear of persecution in their original homelands.

You are late to the party with your newly found concern for immigrants.

Lol

You say........... "Away with you and your eagerness to assign to me arguments I have mot [sic] made." (Which, of course, I didn't do)

But then, you close your post with..........

"You are late to the party with your newly found concern for immigrants"........

...........when you have absolutely no idea how long I've had "concern for immigrants." None whatsoever!

Fact is, I'm 64 years old, and before January of this year when I first logged in to AseanNow........... you had no idea I even existed!

Personally, I try hard not to play the "Do as I say, not as I do" game, that you have demostrated so successfully here.

Now.......... what do they call that, again? Hippocratic? Hypnotic? Hippopotamus?

Oh that's right, it's.............

KanchanaburiGuy · July 27, 2022

On 7/25/2022 at 11:13 PM, heybruce said:

"And I see no attempt to consider what Unintended Consequences may result from using such heavy-handed and narrowly-focused enforcement schemes."

To be clear, are you arguing against heavy-handed and narrowly-focused enforcement schemes against illegal immigrants as well? Or are you ok with using such tactics against the immigrants but opposed to using them on the businesses that hire them?

Also, outside of farming, most illegal immigrants are working in restaurants, hotels, car washes, yard care, and other non-essential businesses that people can live without. What's wrong with requiring people to pay more for such luxuries?

However if doing without immigrant labor does present an unacceptable risk and burden to the country, the correct response is to make it easier for immigrants to work in the country legally.

To be clear, I'm not arguing against "heavy-handed and narrowly-focused enforcement schemes" (my words)........AT ALL! Not with regard to employers, and not with regard to Illegal Workers.

Indeed, if you read the paragraph that immediately precedes the one where you found my quote........... that should be readily apparent.

What I HAVE tried to argue is that just because people keep ignoring the real-life problems of Cause & Effect and Unintended Consequences that will inevitably result from their short, pithy, black & white "answers"........... it doesn't mean those things are not real; that some people will not wind up being SEVERELY and perhaps TRAGICALLY affected by them! And not just the workers themselves, but their families, too!

KanchanaburiGuy · July 27, 2022

On 7/25/2022 at 11:42 PM, heybruce said:

Maybe off topic, but it is very common for manufacturing industries to "comply" with labor laws by subcontracting the dirty work.

Long ago when I was young I worked for a company that did maintenance for a pulp wood mill. We did the work that the mill didn't want the union workers with medical benefits doing. The work was hard, dirty, dangerous (I got many chemical burns), demeaning (when I worked on the garbage truck I had to ride in the back with the garbage) and sometimes illegal (covering up safety violations after someone was killed on the job). However it paid one and a half times the minimum wage, and at the time I couldn't walk away from that much money.

I sympathize with people who will do what it takes to earn honest money. That includes the illegal immigrants.

A lot if times, it has nothing to do with what the employer wants. It ISN'T that they don't want to pay the union workers union wages to do the menial jobs. It is frequently prohibited by the union itself, in the contract.

In my whopping 21 days as a teamster in the "Bottlers Union" working at Anhueser Busch in Van Nuys, California............ I worked in Quality Control.

One night, I finished up all the work I had been assigned roughly a hour and a half before the end of my shift. I figured, no problem! I'll pick up a broom or something! But oh, no, no, no!

If I, as a Quality Control "bottler," did clean-up work.......... then the guy whose job it was to clean floors......... might lose his job!

Indeed, one night I got read the "riot act" because I picked up a case of 24 bottles and brought it into the lab to QC!

"Oh no! No, no, no! You can't do that!"

As a QC worker, I was not ALLOWED to carry a full case! If I needed cases brought into the lab, I needed to contact a supervisor, and the supervisor would assign a "bottler" to carry the cases in. This could take a couple of hours, though.

So, what WAS I allowed to carry, so our productivity wasnt completely tanked? I was allowed to take one

bottle or can out of the case, carry in the 23 bottles or cans remaining, then go back outside and get the one more!

Because it was a BOTTLER'S job to carry full cases, not Quality Control's job! And if QC starts doing a Bottler's job.......... the company might decide to get rid of some "Bottlers!"

Believe me, none of this came from THE COMPANY! This was all THE UNION!

The point is........

A lot of times, the company gets THE BLAME............. but the company is not THE PROBLEM!

Chomper Higgot · July 27, 2022

1 hour ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

Lol

You say........... "Away with you and your eagerness to assign to me arguments I have mot [sic] made." (Which, of course, I didn't do)

But then, you close your post with..........

"You are late to the party with your newly found concern for immigrants"........

...........when you have absolutely no idea how long I've had "concern for immigrants." None whatsoever!

Fact is, I'm 64 years old, and before January of this year when I first logged in to AseanNow........... you had no idea I even existed!

Personally, I try hard not to play the "Do as I say, not as I do" game, that you have demostrated so successfully here.

Now.......... what do they call that, again? Hippocratic? Hypnotic? Hippopotamus?

Oh that's right, it's.............

You reminded me of happier times, thank you.

But before you go, didn’t you make assumptions about my position on matters for which you had no knowledge?

Yes you did.

heybruce · July 28, 2022

15 hours ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

A lot if times, it has nothing to do with what the employer wants. It ISN'T that they don't want to pay the union workers union wages to do the menial jobs. It is frequently prohibited by the union itself, in the contract.

In my whopping 21 days as a teamster in the "Bottlers Union" working at Anhueser Busch in Van Nuys, California............ I worked in Quality Control.

One night, I finished up all the work I had been assigned roughly a hour and a half before the end of my shift. I figured, no problem! I'll pick up a broom or something! But oh, no, no, no!

If I, as a Quality Control "bottler," did clean-up work.......... then the guy whose job it was to clean floors......... might lose his job!

Indeed, one night I got read the "riot act" because I picked up a case of 24 bottles and brought it into the lab to QC!

"Oh no! No, no, no! You can't do that!"

As a QC worker, I was not ALLOWED to carry a full case! If I needed cases brought into the lab, I needed to contact a supervisor, and the supervisor would assign a "bottler" to carry the cases in. This could take a couple of hours, though.

So, what WAS I allowed to carry, so our productivity wasnt completely tanked? I was allowed to take one

bottle or can out of the case, carry in the 23 bottles or cans remaining, then go back outside and get the one more!

Because it was a BOTTLER'S job to carry full cases, not Quality Control's job! And if QC starts doing a Bottler's job.......... the company might decide to get rid of some "Bottlers!"

Believe me, none of this came from THE COMPANY! This was all THE UNION!

The point is........

A lot of times, the company gets THE BLAME............. but the company is not THE PROBLEM!

Irrelevant diversion. The union's strict enforcement of job duties has nothing to do with industries hiring contractors that ignore health and safety laws and that hire illegal immigrants.

Unless you are arguing that the industries should be allowed to ignore health and safety laws and also allowed to hire illegal immigrants, which would eliminate the need for the contractors.

EVENKEEL · July 30, 2022

biden finally understands a wall is needed in certain areas.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/biden-administration-fill-border-wall-gaps-yuma-arizona-rcna40567

EVENKEEL · July 31, 2022

Our system was inundated with those who were seeking shelter because of the callousness of the states that pushed them out. We’re here. We’re receiving them, and everyone is going to have to be on board,” Adams said earlier this week.

He added, “Our schools are going to be impacted, our healthcare system is going to be impacted, our infrastructure is going to be impacted. But we’re going to be willing to do our job – We’re going to do our job, and we’re going to need all New Yorkers to be with us.”

https://ijr.com/dc-mayor-national-guards-help-address-humanitarian-crisis-involving-illegal-immigrants/

NYC and DC are only receiving a small fraction of illegals crossing daily. Now think of the impact the border states are facing with dealing with 100's of thousands of illegals.

KanchanaburiGuy · July 31, 2022

On 7/28/2022 at 7:08 AM, heybruce said:

Irrelevant diversion. The union's strict enforcement of job duties has nothing to do with industries hiring contractors that ignore health and safety laws and that hire illegal immigrants.

Unless you are arguing that the industries should be allowed to ignore health and safety laws and also allowed to hire illegal immigrants, which would eliminate the need for the contractors.

A union's "strict enforcement of job duties" is sometimes exactly why companies hire outside contractors.

When hiring outside contractors, the expectation is to hire professionals who will behave professionally.

Making sure the contractor is following health and safety regulations and hiring legal workers............. is the CONTRACTOR'S job, NOT the hiring company's! That, after all, is what they're getting paid for!

You hire professionals so you don't have to watch over every detail and supervise every action. That's exactly why you hire them!

heybruce · July 31, 2022

1 hour ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

A union's "strict enforcement of job duties" is sometimes exactly why companies hire outside contractors.

When hiring outside contractors, the expectation is to hire professionals who will behave professionally.

Making sure the contractor is following health and safety regulations and hiring legal workers............. is the CONTRACTOR'S job, NOT the hiring company's! That, after all, is what they're getting paid for!

You hire professionals so you don't have to watch over every detail and supervise every action. That's exactly why you hire them!

"A union's "strict enforcement of job duties" is sometimes exactly why companies hire outside contractors."

Sometimes, but it is rarely the driving factor. Companies don't want to pay union wages and benefits for jobs they can contract out for less money and zero benefits.

"Making sure the contractor is following health and safety regulations and hiring legal workers............. is the CONTRACTOR'S job, NOT the hiring company's! That, after all, is what they're getting paid for!"

Yes, and that's why companies like to contract out dangerous work to smaller companies who know how to get away with breaking the rules. As I posted earlier, it is a way for them to "comply" with labor laws.

"You hire professionals so you don't have to watch over every detail and supervise every action."

Sometimes, but at the immigrant level you hire professionals who will take the heat for the hiring company if things go south.

If a farmer contracts out the labor for harvest, he has contracted out responsibility for any illegal labor hired. If the farm is raided (unlikely in Florida, where I have been stuck for some time; I've not read or heard anything about an INS raid for years. This even though Florida's Governor has a fire and brimstone anti-illegals image.)

The places where this sort of thing happens are usually places where the contractor is well-wired into the local political system. If they can avoid killing the illegal immigrants they bring into the country in a highly visible way, they can usually get away with other crimes with a slap on the wrist. But if there is little enforcement of the laws against hiring illegal immigrants, they are unlikely to suffer even that inconvenience.

So we're back to the situation of demand for labor on one side of the border, supply of labor on the other side, and little enforcement of laws against those who hire illegal immigrants.

StayinThailand2much · July 31, 2022

On 7/20/2022 at 4:56 PM, Mac Mickmanus said:

Why are there so many people wanting to go to the USA , when there are Americans living in tent cities ?

The age-old belief that 'money grows on trees' in the West. Also, the lack of knowledge about housing crisis and high living costs. Yes, wages may be twice** what they are in Mexico, but housing and other living costs are four times** as much (**example!). - Do these people google what life is like 'up north' before heading there? I don't think so...

placeholder · July 31, 2022

11 hours ago, StayinThailand2much said:

The age-old belief that 'money grows on trees' in the West. Also, the lack of knowledge about housing crisis and high living costs. Yes, wages may be twice** what they are in Mexico, but housing and other living costs are four times** as much (**example!). - Do these people google what life is like 'up north' before heading there? I don't think so...

Really? Because they don't have friends and relatives who have preceded them there? So the USA is just a big black box to them? What you don't seem to know is that not only do Mexicans and Central Americans come to the US but they also return to their own countries. Not so long ago a lot more Mexicans were returning than coming to the USA.

Mexicans decline to less than half the U.S. unauthorized immigrant population for the first time

The number of Mexican unauthorized immigrants in the United States declined so sharply over the past decade that they no longer are the majority of those living in the country illegally, according to new Pew Research Center estimates based on government data. In 2017, there were 10.5 million unauthorized immigrants in the U.S., including 4.9 million Mexicans.

The decrease in the Mexican born was the major factor driving down the overall population of unauthorized immigrants in the U.S., which in 2017 was 1.7 million below its peak of 12.2 million in 2007.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/12/us-unauthorized-immigrant-population-2017/

This decrease has been going on for some time:

More Mexicans Leaving Than Coming to the U.S.

Net Loss of 140,000 from 2009 to 2014; Family Reunification Top Reason for Return

https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-to-the-u-s/

StayinThailand2much · August 2, 2022

On 7/31/2022 at 11:43 PM, placeholder said:

Really? Because they don't have friends and relatives who have preceded them there?

Fair enough. If you have relatives and friends who take you in, meaning you live there for free, and employers who will hire you anyway, even if it is illegal, then it is a win-win, of course.

KanchanaburiGuy · August 2, 2022

On 7/31/2022 at 11:43 PM, placeholder said:

Really? Because they don't have friends and relatives who have preceded them there? So the USA is just a big black box to them? What you don't seem to know is that not only do Mexicans and Central Americans come to the US but they also return to their own countries. Not so long ago a lot more Mexicans were returning than coming to the USA.

Mexicans decline to less than half the U.S. unauthorized immigrant population for the first time

The number of Mexican unauthorized immigrants in the United States declined so sharply over the past decade that they no longer are the majority of those living in the country illegally, according to new Pew Research Center estimates based on government data. In 2017, there were 10.5 million unauthorized immigrants in the U.S., including 4.9 million Mexicans.

The decrease in the Mexican born was the major factor driving down the overall population of unauthorized immigrants in the U.S., which in 2017 was 1.7 million below its peak of 12.2 million in 2007.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/12/us-unauthorized-immigrant-population-2017/

This decrease has been going on for some time:

More Mexicans Leaving Than Coming to the U.S.

Net Loss of 140,000 from 2009 to 2014; Family Reunification Top Reason for Return

https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-to-the-u-s/

It is interesting to note that in the timeframes mentioned in the quoted articles........... (2009 to 2014 in one; 2007 to 2017 in the other)............ there were some interesting changes that occurred.

For example:

Pew Research's window 2009 to 2014 when a "net loss" of 140,000 Mexican Illegals is highlighted.......... also had 5 of the 6 highest years of court ordered deportations in the history of the country. (Roughly 400,000 per year)

(These are called "Removals," which are court-ordered and compulsory.)

So yes, Mexicans were "leaving." But apparently, it wasn't so much that they were "leaving," as they were getting thrown out!

-----------------

At roughly the same time.........

The number of what might be called "voluntary" expulsions dropped precipitously, from about 800,000 per year, to less than 170,000.

(These are called "Returns," which have confirmation that the Illegal Aliens have left the country, but occurred without needing a court-order. We might consider these.......... "Caught, then allowed to leave.")

----------------

https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/yearbook/2019/table39

-----------------

So........

While "court-ordered and compulsory" expulsions were at their peak........... the number of Illegal Aliens leaving "voluntarily" ["Returns"] dropped like a stone.......... (800,000--1.5 million to under 200,000).......... and has never come back up!

A look at the chart in the link will show that the number of "Returns" in 2019............ was roughly only 10-15% of what it had been, not that many years ago!

It also suggests the drop in Illegal Aliens overall........... and of "Mexicans" in particular............. has been the result of "court-ordered and compulsory" expulsions............. NOT because they have been leaving "voluntarily."

At least, that's what it looks like to me.

Thoughts?

placeholder · August 2, 2022

7 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

It is interesting to note that in the timeframes mentioned in the quoted articles........... (2009 to 2014 in one; 2007 to 2017 in the other)............ there were some interesting changes that occurred.

For example:

Pew Research's window 2009 to 2014 when a "net loss" of 140,000 Mexican Illegals is highlighted.......... also had 5 of the 6 highest years of court ordered deportations in the history of the country. (Roughly 400,000 per year)

(These are called "Removals," which are court-ordered and compulsory.)

So yes, Mexicans were "leaving." But apparently, it wasn't so much that they were "leaving," as they were getting thrown out!

-----------------

At roughly the same time.........

The number of what might be called "voluntary" expulsions dropped precipitously, from about 800,000 per year, to less than 170,000.

(These are called "Returns," which have confirmation that the Illegal Aliens have left the country, but occurred without needing a court-order. We might consider these.......... "Caught, then allowed to leave.")

----------------

https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/yearbook/2019/table39

-----------------

So........

While "court-ordered and compulsory" expulsions were at their peak........... the number of Illegal Aliens leaving "voluntarily" ["Returns"] dropped like a stone.......... (800,000 to under 200,000).......... and has never come back up!

A look at the chart in the link will show that the number of "Returns" in 2019............ was roughly only 10-15% of what it had been, not that many years ago!

It also suggests the drop in Illegal Aliens overall........... and of "Mexicans" in particular............. has been the result of "court-ordered and compulsory" expulsions............. NOT because they have been leaving "voluntarily."

At least, that's what it looks like to me.

Thoughts?

The Pew article I cited was about Mexicans, not all undocumented aliens. The percentage of undocumented aliens in the US who were Mexican declined to less than half. Unless the Immigration service was focusing on extraditing only Mexicans, which seems unlikely, than some other factor has to be invoked.

KanchanaburiGuy · August 2, 2022

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

The Pew article I cited was about Mexicans, not all undocumented aliens. The percentage of undocumented aliens in the US who were Mexican declined to less than half. Unless the Immigration service was focusing on extraditing only Mexicans, which seems unlikely, than some other factor has to be invoked.

Do you know......

Was Mexicans representing "less than half" of Illegal Aliens because the numerator went down.......... or because the denominator went up?

Either of those two changes could result in Mexicans becoming "less than half."

Do you know?

Did you even ask?

candide · August 2, 2022

2 hours ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

It is interesting to note that in the timeframes mentioned in the quoted articles........... (2009 to 2014 in one; 2007 to 2017 in the other)............ there were some interesting changes that occurred.

For example:

Pew Research's window 2009 to 2014 when a "net loss" of 140,000 Mexican Illegals is highlighted.......... also had 5 of the 6 highest years of court ordered deportations in the history of the country. (Roughly 400,000 per year)

(These are called "Removals," which are court-ordered and compulsory.)

So yes, Mexicans were "leaving." But apparently, it wasn't so much that they were "leaving," as they were getting thrown out!

-----------------

At roughly the same time.........

The number of what might be called "voluntary" expulsions dropped precipitously, from about 800,000 per year, to less than 170,000.

(These are called "Returns," which have confirmation that the Illegal Aliens have left the country, but occurred without needing a court-order. We might consider these.......... "Caught, then allowed to leave.")

----------------

https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/yearbook/2019/table39

-----------------

So........

While "court-ordered and compulsory" expulsions were at their peak........... the number of Illegal Aliens leaving "voluntarily" ["Returns"] dropped like a stone.......... (800,000--1.5 million to under 200,000).......... and has never come back up!

A look at the chart in the link will show that the number of "Returns" in 2019............ was roughly only 10-15% of what it had been, not that many years ago!

It also suggests the drop in Illegal Aliens overall........... and of "Mexicans" in particular............. has been the result of "court-ordered and compulsory" expulsions............. NOT because they have been leaving "voluntarily."

At least, that's what it looks like to me.

Thoughts?

A better job situation and wage level (thanks to ALENA?) probably played à role. Now it's increasingly coming from poorer and more disturbed countries in Central American.

placeholder · August 2, 2022

6 hours ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

Do you know......

Was Mexicans representing "less than half" of Illegal Aliens because the numerator went down.......... or because the denominator went up?

Either of those two changes could result in Mexicans becoming "less than half."

Do you know?

Did you even ask?

Information in the article noted the not only did the total number of illegals in the US decline but the percentage of Mexicans out of all illegals remaining declined as well.

What does that tell you?

Did you even read the article?

EVENKEEL · August 30, 2022

"The Biden administration caused the surge, made the border less safe and is flagrantly violating the very federal laws they swore to uphold. The Biden administration is putting hard-working border patrol agents in impossible and untenable positions — risking their lives and safety, and I want to thank Chief Ortiz for testifying truthfully at his deposition," Moody said.

Moody is Florida's AG

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/border-patrol-chief-says-border-crisis-caused-bidens-no-consequences-policies-illegal-migrants

placeholder · August 30, 2022

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

"The Biden administration caused the surge, made the border less safe and is flagrantly violating the very federal laws they swore to uphold. The Biden administration is putting hard-working border patrol agents in impossible and untenable positions — risking their lives and safety, and I want to thank Chief Ortiz for testifying truthfully at his deposition," Moody said.

Moody is Florida's AG

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/border-patrol-chief-says-border-crisis-caused-bidens-no-consequences-policies-illegal-migrants

If ever there was a non-partisan Attorney General it's Ashely Brook Moody

Ashley Brooke Moody (born March 28, 1975) is an American attorney and politician serving as the Florida attorney general since January 2019.

During her tenure as Florida attorney general, Moody has supported lawsuits to invalidate the Affordable Care Act, advocated against restoration of voting rights for former felons, and opposed the legalization of recreational marijuana. Moody was a significant surrogate of then-President Donald Trump in Florida during the 2020 presidential election, and joined in the Texas v. Pennsylvania lawsuit, which sought to overturn the results of the election.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Moody

EVENKEEL · August 30, 2022

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

If ever there was a non-partisan Attorney General it's Ashely Brook Moody

Ashley Brooke Moody (born March 28, 1975) is an American attorney and politician serving as the Florida attorney general since January 2019.

During her tenure as Florida attorney general, Moody has supported lawsuits to invalidate the Affordable Care Act, advocated against restoration of voting rights for former felons, and opposed the legalization of recreational marijuana. Moody was a significant surrogate of then-President Donald Trump in Florida during the 2020 presidential election, and joined in the Texas v. Pennsylvania lawsuit, which sought to overturn the results of the election.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Moody

Maybe next time check out the link, see what Chief Ortiz has to say.

Chomper Higgot · August 30, 2022

On 7/31/2022 at 7:29 AM, EVENKEEL said:

Our system was inundated with those who were seeking shelter because of the callousness of the states that pushed them out. We’re here. We’re receiving them, and everyone is going to have to be on board,” Adams said earlier this week.

He added, “Our schools are going to be impacted, our healthcare system is going to be impacted, our infrastructure is going to be impacted. But we’re going to be willing to do our job – We’re going to do our job, and we’re going to need all New Yorkers to be with us.”

https://ijr.com/dc-mayor-national-guards-help-address-humanitarian-crisis-involving-illegal-immigrants/

NYC and DC are only receiving a small fraction of illegals crossing daily. Now think of the impact the border states are facing with dealing with 100's of thousands of illegals.

What impact?

Cheap Labour employed by local businesses, getting your yard work done, staff for a golf course?

NYC is responding by providing the means to integrate these new comers, it’s a long time NYC practice.

Unlike Texas, scapegoating people who contribute to the Texan economy.

Fix the power grid and quit scapegoating people dealing the American Dream.

Chomper Higgot · August 30, 2022

46 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Maybe next time check out the link, see what Chief Ortiz has to say.

Say about what, his agents destroying water left by people concerned about other human beings dying of thirst in the desert?

EVENKEEL · August 30, 2022

31 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Say about what, his agents destroying water left by people concerned about other human beings dying of thirst in the desert?

Please post a link to back that up,

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By raft and on foot, migrants cross Rio Grande from Mexico to Texas

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