Passenger fined $1,874 after two undeclared McMuffins found in luggage

[Lacessit]

5 hours ago, arithai12 said:

Or you could read the first words of the article "A passenger traveling from Bali, Indonesia to Australia"

Flight time from Bali to Darwin is 2 hours 35 minutes. It was a person who is now on ignore who mentioned a flight time of 9 hours, so I'd say your post is an example of picking nits when you have not bothered to read the full thread, in your eagerness to criticize me. You have just joined said person.

[Lacessit]

On 8/2/2022 at 7:22 AM, Ralf001 said:

FMD can live in cooked meat ?

Certainly can, if the meat is not cooked fully. However, that's not the point. The quarantine laws are spelled out quite clearly multiple times for incoming passengers.

[Lacessit]

On 8/3/2022 at 8:15 AM, BritManToo said:

Seems to me Australia is ruled by tyranny, the fine seems out of all proportion to the offense.

It's not when one considers the cost to whole industries that can be instigated by one moronic traveler.

IIRC, it was the British who introduced rabbits and foxes to Australia, to satisfy their need for upper class pastimes such as hunting. The damage that has been done by those vermin to pastoral land and native species is beyond calculation.

I think it was Oscar Wilde who said fox hunting was the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible.

[JonnyF]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

It's not when one considers the cost to whole industries that can be instigated by one moronic traveler.

IIRC, it was the British who introduced rabbits and foxes to Australia, to satisfy their need for upper class pastimes such as hunting. The damage that has been done by those vermin to pastoral land and native species is beyond calculation.

I think it was Oscar Wilde who said fox hunting was the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible.

It was also the British who introduced Causcasians to Australia. 

 

Mostly prisoners. Which is ironic given that most Australian government authorities now seem to have an obsession with creating an authoritarian police state.

 

Very sad to see the way the place is going. Every time I visit, the urge to return diminishes.

[BritManToo]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

It's not when one considers the cost to whole industries that can be instigated by one moronic traveler.

IIRC, it was the British who introduced rabbits and foxes to Australia, to satisfy their need for upper class pastimes such as hunting. The damage that has been done by those vermin to pastoral land and native species is beyond calculation.

I think it was Oscar Wilde who said fox hunting was the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible.

You feel arriving with a burger in your bag is a similar offense to importing and releasing vermin into the wild?

[KanchanaburiGuy]

6 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

You feel arriving with a burger in your bag is a similar offense to importing and releasing vermin into the wild?

Well, there IS a serious threat of McMuffins running around, tearing up the landscape. And we all know the Sausage McMuffins are the most pernicious of the lot............!

 

*wink*

[KanchanaburiGuy]

As for the OP.........

 

The principle still applies............

 

The Punishment Should Fit the Crime.

 

In my opinion, the proper punishment would be the loss of the goods........... (goods the traveler paid for, but does not get to enjoy)............ and maybe a $25 fine, for failure to declare. 

 

But what they WERE fined? That level of punishment should be reserved for third or fourth offenses by the same traveler.

 

The Punishment Should Fit the Crime!

 

This punishment is way, way, WAY out of proportion to the crime committed!

 

(In my next post, I'll tell the story of a similarly INSANE interpretation of hahaha "the law" that I personally experienced at the U.S./Canadian border, near Vancouver, BC.)

 

 

[Lacessit]

42 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

You feel arriving with a burger in your bag is a similar offense to importing and releasing vermin into the wild?

The rules are there for good reason. If you don't like those rules, or the penalties for breaching them, don't go to Australia.

Incoming passengers get fair warning. You think people with the attention span of a goldfish should get a free pass?

My guess would be importing vermin nowadays would not just be a fine, it would be jail.

[Lacessit]

19 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

As for the OP.........

 

The principle still applies............

 

The Punishment Should Fit the Crime.

 

In my opinion, the proper punishment would be the loss of the goods........... (goods the traveler paid for, but does not get to enjoy)............ and maybe a $25 fine, for failure to declare. 

 

But what they WERE fined? That level of punishment should be reserved for third or fourth offenses by the same traveler.

 

The Punishment Should Fit the Crime!

 

This punishment is way, way, WAY out of proportion to the crime committed!

 

(In my next post, I'll tell the story of a similarly INSANE interpretation of hahaha "the law" that I personally experienced at the U.S./Canadian border, near Vancouver, BC.)

 

 

Confiscation of goods, and a $25 fine. You really think that kind of slap on the wrist is going to have any deterrence?

No doubt your "INSANE" interpretation arose from being a scofflaw, then having to pay for it.

[JonnyF]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

You feel arriving with a burger in your bag is a similar offense to importing and releasing vermin into the wild?

Totally different. Of course.

 

But an excellent example of how laws created with good intentions can be abused by little jobsworths who enjoy bossing people around.

 

Bossing around the very same people who have outperformed them in every aspect of life and just happen to be passing through an international airport where they were lucky enough to find minimum wage employment.

 

Pathetic specimens. If you met them anywhere outside the airport they would be cowering scrotes.

 

[Fat is a type of crazy]

50 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Totally different. Of course.

 

But an excellent example of how laws created with good intentions can be abused by little jobsworths who enjoy bossing people around.

 

Bossing around the very same people who have outperformed them in every aspect of life and just happen to be passing through an international airport where they were lucky enough to find minimum wage employment.

 

Pathetic specimens. If you met them anywhere outside the airport they would be cowering scrotes.

 

Very harsh on Australian Public servants of which I am one. Not that agency. You maybe had one having a bad day, so make all sorts of judgements on a range of staff, doing a good and important job. Never had a problem going through the airport. Everyone friendly. There is a video on the plane telling you to be careful. High alert for beef now. I agree the high dollar amount is pretty harsh but if people  just think about the form they are completing it shouldn't be so hard and no drama will ensue. The potential downside is massive for the Australian economy. 

[KanchanaburiGuy]

My own story, similar in ways to the bizarre experience described in the OP..........

 

----------------

----------------

 

I used to own and operate a Futon Store in Anacortes, Washington, about 70 miles south of the Canadian border. The excellent brand of Futons I carried was called Renelle, which came from Surrey, BC, near Vancouver.

 

Because the factory was only about 100 miles from me, and........

 

Because US Customs would allow me to carry up to $2,000 of commercial goods across the border, duty free, and..........

 

Because I could go up to Vancouver............ a World-Class City!......... on a Friday, and pick up my goods the following Monday morning.............and write-off nearly my whole Vancouver pleasure weekend as a "business expense".............

 

I used to drive my delivery van up fairly regularly to pick up merchandise for my store, then bring it back for about half what the freight charges would've cost. No problem. Easy-peasy! And I'd get a weekend away in Vancouver!

 

But then..............

 

It had become fairly routine that one trip in five, I'd be told to park my van, turn my paperwork in inside, and take a seat. 30-45 minutes would go by sitting with the truckers. Then a Customs Officer would hand my paperwork back and tell me I was free to go. No explanation, but no problems, either.

 

Except for this one time.........

 

I got this one Customs Officer who said, after a 90-minute wait, "You're carrying 'Agricultural Products' and 'Textiles' These require very different documentation and sizable duties!"

 

I responded, "These are not 'Agricultural Products.' They are finished furniture; finished goods. They've been sawn, shaped, assembled, glued, lacquered, and boxed!

 

"And the Futon Mattresses? As 'Textile Products?' No, just like the wood frames, these have their own category as 'finished goods.' They are not 'Textiles.'"

 

This guy............ THIS GUY........... believed that if it was made of wood, it was "Agricultural," and it it was made using fabric, it was a "Textile!" 

 

Now, I know better than to aggravate one of these guys. He gets all the say and I get none. So I politely told him I've made this trip with these same things at least 20 times, with no problems. His reaction? "Well, you've been very lucky, then" (!!!!!)

 

So I asked, "Could you check with a supervisor, just to be sure? Cuz, I'm pretty sure everything I'm carrying has its own category, and that it will show I'm okay." (In fact, I had a copy on the applicable codes with me in my notebook, and had already reviewed them during my 90-minute wait! But I also knew better than to pull out the papers and show the guy up! "See? See?")

 

Could he check with a supervisor? Yes, he could. Two hours later!

 

I've now been waiting in the waiting area gor 3 1/2 hours. I've literally seen dozens of others come and go. But I stayed calm. I stayed patient.

 

Finally, I see my guy talking to another man. They look at the papers, they look at me. At the papers, at me. As I watch the other man, his body language and expression got more and more tense. He's getting mad. He seems really pi$$ed about something. He's looking at my guy like he can't believe the guy. He clearly thinks the guy must be some kind of idiot!

 

The second guy walks into his office and closes the door. I think he went in there to cool down. My guy sits back down at his desk, looking downcast.

 

About two minutes later, the supervisor comes back out of his office, scoops up the paperwork off my guy's desk and waves me up to the counter. He says, "You can go. Sorry for the delay."

 

And that's it. That's all he says! By now, almost 4 hours waiting for something that should not have happened in the first place........... for something that, 4 times out of 5, has just been a wave-through at the outside booth............ and that's all he says! Hahahaha!

 

Sometimes, U.S. Customs is manned by idiots. And sometimes you're gonna get one. And lord help you if you try to argue with them............ cuz they can just make you wait........ and wait......... and wait! And then you're gonna lose, anyway!

 

------------------

------------------

 

Epilogue.............

 

I never got a wave-through at the border again. Every time...............EVERY TIME!............ I came to the border, thereafter, I had to park the van and go inside, where U.S. Customs would review my paperwork........... (30-45 minutes)........... then let me go.

 

I assume........... because of the "incident".......... my embarrassed Customs Officer Red-Flagged my passport, so I could no longer get waved through.

 

I don't know this is true, though. I only know that after that "incident," I never got waved-through again. Not once!

 

Eventually, I got so frustrated and annoyed that I just started having Renelle ship to me, instead, rather than picking up. I only had to eat about 30 bucks per Futon to have them shipped............ but it also cost me my semi-regular "free" trips to Vancouver!

 

That $250 I now had to pay in freight....... was almost exactly what I paid the Crowne Plaza Hotel for a a 3-night "businessman's weekend!" Lol

 

------------------

------------------

 

And how does this relate to the OP?

 

Those supposed "Agricultural Products" I was importing to the U.S. were potentially as "dangerous" to American agriculture......... as those pork sausage patties were to the Australian meat industry.............. exactly ZERO!

 

The Customs Officials.......... (or the laws they are following).......... are just wrong, wrong, WRONG!

 

Those cooked sausage patties were no more a threat to Australia ............ than my lacquered Futons were to America!

 

Pffft!

 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2022 by KanchanaburiGuy

[KanchanaburiGuy]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

Confiscation of goods, and a $25 fine. You really think that kind of slap on the wrist is going to have any deterrence?

No doubt your "INSANE" interpretation arose from being a scofflaw, then having to pay for it.

Actually, my interpretation comes from being sensible.

 

If a person...... or a law...... is incapable of distinguishing between a smuggler and an error......... then both the person and the law deserve to get tossed.

 

A smuggler deserves a hefty fine and maybe even jail, depending.

 

An error deserves, yes, "a slap on the wrist." That is all that's needed for THAT person to learn!*

 

The Punishment Should Fit the Crime.

 

.

 

* (Or perhaps you are under the impression that this "scoflaw smuggler" intended to black-market  their TWO several-hour-old Sausage McMuffins with Egg to an unsuspecting Sausage Farmer............... who would then plant them and grow a couple of fields of tainted sausage patties and "alien" English Muffins?)

Edited August 6, 2022 by KanchanaburiGuy

[KanchanaburiGuy]

1 hour ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

There is a video on the plane telling you to be careful. High alert for beef now.

Now, the McMuffins came from Bali, Indonesia, so maybe it's different, but..........

 

McDonald's Sausage Patties are Pork, not Beef.

 

But maybe, because it's Indonesia, they are made from Beef, instead?

 

Seems to me, if a person is being given a serious warning about Beef.......... but what they have in their bag is Pork, not Beef........... (and fully cooked Pork, at that).......... they might not expect there to be a problem?

 

(Edit:

 

Looked up McDonald's in Bali, Indonesia. Their Sausage Patty in the McMuffin is CHICKEN, not Beef.

 

Apparently, according to the Guardian, the second sandwich had Ham? Still not Beef! Lol)

 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2022 by KanchanaburiGuy

[Fat is a type of crazy]

1 hour ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

Now, the McMuffins came from Bali, Indonesia, so maybe it's different, but..........

 

McDonald's Sausage Patties are Pork, not Beef.

 

But maybe, because it's Indonesia, they are made from Beef, instead?

 

Seems to me, if a person is being given a serious warning about Beef.......... but what they have in their bag is Pork, not Beef........... (and fully cooked Pork, at that).......... they might not expect there to be a problem?

 

(Edit:

 

Looked up McDonald's in Bali, Indonesia. Their Sausage Patty in the McMuffin is CHICKEN, not Beef.

 

Apparently, according to the Guardian, the second sandwich had Ham? Still not Beef! Lol)

 

 

 

To be fair I didn't say it was beef. Noted that there  is a specific high extremely risk of beef from Bali as others pointed out. It looks like foot and mouth disease comes from pigs too so ham may possibly be a risk. The products may be stored next to or cooked along side beef burgers and staff may touch both products. 

As I say, people travelling should and would know from the card handed to all passengers and the video that all meat should be declared. After years of watching the Border Security Australia TV show, which you can watch on youtube,  most fines tend to be lower, e.g. from one to a  few hundred, and they'll often be lenient to first time travellers or old people etc. That fine appears not to be the norm and had been brought in due to the current situation. I agree it's a bit nasty. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Fat is a type of crazy

[Lacessit]

3 hours ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

Actually, my interpretation comes from being sensible.

 

If a person...... or a law...... is incapable of distinguishing between a smuggler and an error......... then both the person and the law deserve to get tossed.

 

A smuggler deserves a hefty fine and maybe even jail, depending.

 

An error deserves, yes, "a slap on the wrist." That is all that's needed for THAT person to learn!*

 

The Punishment Should Fit the Crime.

 

.

 

* (Or perhaps you are under the impression that this "scoflaw smuggler" intended to black-market  their TWO several-hour-old Sausage McMuffins with Egg to an unsuspecting Sausage Farmer............... who would then plant them and grow a couple of fields of tainted sausage patties and "alien" English Muffins?)

At the risk of going off topic, I'll try to explain the principle of deterrence. It's nothing to do with "The punishment should fit the crime".

 

About three months ago, I was fined 500 baht for speeding. A slap on the wrist. The same offense in Australia would have cost me 14,000 baht, plus demerit points.

 

The road death toll in Australia averages about 1150 per year. In Thailand, it is more than 20,000. See where I am going with this?

 

Hopefully, the moron who brought in the McMuffins will now serve as a warning to other morons.

 

Now please explain to me why entire industries should be placed at risk to placate your dubious philosophy. Even Thailand bans the import of meat and meat-based products in passenger luggage.

 

As I remarked to another poster, if you don't like Australian quarantine laws, don't go there. It's not as if morons do not get fair warning.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Lacessit

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

 

 

The road death toll in Australia averages about 1150 per year. In Thailand, it is more than 20,000. See where I am going with this?

 

 

Adelaide ?

[Lacessit]

4 hours ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

My own story, similar in ways to the bizarre experience described in the OP..........

 

----------------

----------------

 

I used to own and operate a Futon Store in Anacortes, Washington, about 70 miles south of the Canadian border. The excellent brand of Futons I carried was called Renelle, which came from Surrey, BC, near Vancouver.

 

Because the factory was only about 100 miles from me, and........

 

Because US Customs would allow me to carry up to $2,000 of commercial goods across the border, duty free, and..........

 

Because I could go up to Vancouver............ a World-Class City!......... on a Friday, and pick up my goods the following Monday morning.............and write-off nearly my whole Vancouver pleasure weekend as a "business expense".............

 

I used to drive my delivery van up fairly regularly to pick up merchandise for my store, then bring it back for about half what the freight charges would've cost. No problem. Easy-peasy! And I'd get a weekend away in Vancouver!

 

But then..............

 

It had become fairly routine that one trip in five, I'd be told to park my van, turn my paperwork in inside, and take a seat. 30-45 minutes would go by sitting with the truckers. Then a Customs Officer would hand my paperwork back and tell me I was free to go. No explanation, but no problems, either.

 

Except for this one time.........

 

I got this one Customs Officer who said, after a 90-minute wait, "You're carrying 'Agricultural Products' and 'Textiles' These require very different documentation and sizable duties!"

 

I responded, "These are not 'Agricultural Products.' They are finished furniture; finished goods. They've been sawn, shaped, assembled, glued, lacquered, and boxed!

 

"And the Futon Mattresses? As 'Textile Products?' No, just like the wood frames, these have their own category as 'finished goods.' They are not 'Textiles.'"

 

This guy............ THIS GUY........... believed that if it was made of wood, it was "Agricultural," and it it was made using fabric, it was a "Textile!" 

 

Now, I know better than to aggravate one of these guys. He gets all the say and I get none. So I politely told him I've made this trip with these same things at least 20 times, with no problems. His reaction? "Well, you've been very lucky, then" (!!!!!)

 

So I asked, "Could you check with a supervisor, just to be sure? Cuz, I'm pretty sure everything I'm carrying has its own category, and that it will show I'm okay." (In fact, I had a copy on the applicable codes with me in my notebook, and had already reviewed them during my 90-minute wait! But I also knew better than to pull out the papers and show the guy up! "See? See?")

 

Could he check with a supervisor? Yes, he could. Two hours later!

 

I've now been waiting in the waiting area gor 3 1/2 hours. I've literally seen dozens of others come and go. But I stayed calm. I stayed patient.

 

Finally, I see my guy talking to another man. They look at the papers, they look at me. At the papers, at me. As I watch the other man, his body language and expression got more and more tense. He's getting mad. He seems really pi$$ed about something. He's looking at my guy like he can't believe the guy. He clearly thinks the guy must be some kind of idiot!

 

The second guy walks into his office and closes the door. I think he went in there to cool down. My guy sits back down at his desk, looking downcast.

 

About two minutes later, the supervisor comes back out of his office, scoops up the paperwork off my guy's desk and waves me up to the counter. He says, "You can go. Sorry for the delay."

 

And that's it. That's all he says! By now, almost 4 hours waiting for something that should not have happened in the first place........... for something that, 4 times out of 5, has just been a wave-through at the outside booth............ and that's all he says! Hahahaha!

 

Sometimes, U.S. Customs is manned by idiots. And sometimes you're gonna get one. And lord help you if you try to argue with them............ cuz they can just make you wait........ and wait......... and wait! And then you're gonna lose, anyway!

 

------------------

------------------

 

Epilogue.............

 

I never got a wave-through at the border again. Every time...............EVERY TIME!............ I came to the border, thereafter, I had to park the van and go inside, where U.S. Customs would review my paperwork........... (30-45 minutes)........... then let me go.

 

I assume........... because of the "incident".......... my embarrassed Customs Officer Red-Flagged my passport, so I could no longer get waved through.

 

I don't know this is true, though. I only know that after that "incident," I never got waved-through again. Not once!

 

Eventually, I got so frustrated and annoyed that I just started having Renelle ship to me, instead, rather than picking up. I only had to eat about 30 bucks per Futon to have them shipped............ but it also cost me my semi-regular "free" trips to Vancouver!

 

That $250 I now had to pay in freight....... was almost exactly what I paid the Crowne Plaza Hotel for a a 3-night "businessman's weekend!" Lol

 

------------------

------------------

 

And how does this relate to the OP?

 

Those supposed "Agricultural Products" I was importing to the U.S. were potentially as "dangerous" to American agriculture......... as those pork sausage patties were to the Australian meat industry.............. exactly ZERO!

 

The Customs Officials.......... (or the laws they are following).......... are just wrong, wrong, WRONG!

 

Those cooked sausage patties were no more a threat to Australia ............ than my lacquered Futons were to America!

 

Pffft!

 

 

 

False equivalence, a bed is not a meat patty. Which, BTW, is beef, not pork in the McMuffins I used to eat.

How do you know those patties are not a threat to the Australian livestock industry? Post your degrees in animal epidemiology, please.

You gave an official some attitude, and did not bring out the paperwork which would have supported your case. Then you're surprised you presumably got red-flagged on future trips.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall when you are going for a visa extension at Immigration.

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

.

How do you know those patties are not a threat to the Australian livestock industry? Post your degrees in animal epidemiology, please.

 

Cooking the meat kills the F&M virus and thus the virus is no longer a threat .

(No degree; websearch )

[stevenl]

6 hours ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

Actually, my interpretation comes from being sensible.

 

If a person...... or a law...... is incapable of distinguishing between a smuggler and an error......... then both the person and the law deserve to get tossed.

 

A smuggler deserves a hefty fine and maybe even jail, depending.

 

An error deserves, yes, "a slap on the wrist." That is all that's needed for THAT person to learn!*

 

The Punishment Should Fit the Crime.

 

.

 

* (Or perhaps you are under the impression that this "scoflaw smuggler" intended to black-market  their TWO several-hour-old Sausage McMuffins with Egg to an unsuspecting Sausage Farmer............... who would then plant them and grow a couple of fields of tainted sausage patties and "alien" English Muffins?)

It is not smuggling though, that would be a financial crime.

It is the threat to livestock and agriculture. 

[Fat is a type of crazy]

2 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Cooking the meat kills the F&M virus and thus the virus is no longer a threat .

(No degree; websearch )

They might come in contact with raw meat in the storage or preparation process. It had been found in other meat coming into Australia from Indonesia the week before in viral fragments which isn't dangerous but a close call. A big fine is appropriate. Think $1874 might be a bit much for a such an error though in my opinion. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Fat is a type of crazy

[Lacessit]

14 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

They might come in contact with raw meat in the storage or preparation process. It had been found in other meat coming into Australia from Indonesia the week before in viral fragments which isn't dangerous but a close call. A big fine is appropriate. Think $1874 might be a bit much for a such an error though in my opinion. 

Thank you for explaining the bleeding obvious to a poster I put on ignore. Everyone claiming cooked meat is no problem makes the assumption said meat is cooked and stored properly. In third world countries with a slip-shod attitude to food hygiene, there are plenty of gastro cases that say otherwise.