China?

[meemiathai]

I have always felt the air quality of BKK is better than HK's.

[meemiathai]

A Chinese gf of mine from Hainan was surprised when I told her it was the US who defeated the Japanese in WWII, she had been taught at school that it was the Chinese communist who fought the Japanese away.

[chinthee]

A Chinese gf of mine from Hainan was surprised when I told her it was the US who defeated the Japanese in WWII, she had been taught at school that it was the Chinese communist who fought the Japanese away.

Yes, and JR Texas does have a point about the history books in China being written with an anti-Japanese slant (no racist pun intended). But I suppose we can expect a lot of carryover from the years of propaganda-style writings.

[artao]

Why not explain? Tell us more about you and China.

You mean there is no corruption? Have you heard of the June 4th Massacre? How?

I think you need to put the Tiananmen protests in historical perspective. First, it was not, as some books and articles tend to suggest, an isolated event. There had been student protests (sometimes on a very large scale) almost every other year since the beginning of the reforms (78 or 81, certainly not Nixon's visit, or it would mean that the end of the CR and the Gang of Four episode were part of the opening of China).

More precisely, students from large universities (esp those in Beijing, ie Beida, Qinghua, Renda…) had been major actors in all pro democracy movements between 78 and 81, and then there had been student demonstrations almost every year, the largest ones in 83 and in the winter 86-87. All these movements can be found in chinese and western papers of the time. The students of 89 thus came at the end of a long tradition of student protests. In general these movements remained limited to students, they did last for several weeks, sometimes months (I remember that in 83 they lasted for months), and invariably ended with a police crackdown, a couple of arrests, and amnesty for the others.

In 1989, it started just the same way, some agitation on campuses which dated from the events in in 87, then some clumsy attempt by the authorities to take advantage of the mourning of Hu Yaobang (who had led the Communist Youth) to rally the students. This provoked a first series of demonstrations (in April) where you could already hear slogans which would soon reappear on a larger scale.

Then there was an apparent lull, during which agitation grew in universities, and a full scale movement by the end of April. Up to this point, 89 was not really different than previous movements. What changed, though, was that the government sent very mixed signals (in my opinion, because there was a debate at the top), saying first it would negociate, and then proclaiming martial law, that the students somehow dragged non students in the protest (that was a first, and it did scare the leaders), and that the reaction was much more violent in the end.

As for the student demands, I think they fell into three categories :

1- There was a very practical demand for free student unions, ie right of association in the campuses. This had been a repeated demand on all campuses since the early 80s, and it is interesting to note that the first things which appeared (and those which were fought hardest in the ensuing repression) were independent student unions.

2- There was a more general demand about democracy/political reforms. Again, this demand was not a new thing in 1989. Since 1981, in fact, there always was a current, both among students and intellectuals, and inside the party, which demanded that political reforms (multipartism, moves towards more democratic systems) go along with economic reform. And in 1988 and 1989, some leaders, like Zhao Ziyang, had sent signals that this "fifth modernisation" might arrive soon.

3- Finally, there was one specific theme in 1989, which was equality and corruption, basically, the idea that sons of leaders/party members should abide the law.

The request for democracy has been caricatured as "down with the PRC" by both chinese and western media, but if you want to reduce it to one slogan, it would be "political reform now". This was not just the new position of a few students, but a long standing current in chinese politics, which had supporters among students, but also in the rest of the population and even inside the government. I believe the very strong stand taken by the government (no, tanks weren't absolutely necessary) partly served the purpose of showing everybody that this "option" was now closed.

And in fact, the explanation done after 89 (in the many "summer classes", reminiscent of Mao times, which sprouted again in work units and schools….) insisted on the four fundamental princibles (四項基本原則), ie keeping the polical system unchanged.

I think getting this perspective is important if you want to get some insight on 1989 and its role in modern chinese history.

As for the Goddess of Democracy, it appeared at a very late stage. Original student demands called for discussions, and many government leaders (Zhao Ziyang, but also the major of Beijing, Chen Xitong, I think, and others) visited them and negociated. In fact, by the 20th of May, many students considered that a peaceful solution was about to be found. The main negociator on the government side was Zhao Ziyang, then. What I think happened was that Zhao offered a number of token gestures and reforms in exchange of the end of the movement and this was accepted, but Zhao did not manage to have his reforms passed in Zhongnanhai.

As a result, on one evening (20th?), as students were on the square, waiting for the announcement of reforms, and the end of the movement, they were greeted by the proclamation of martial law, and the use (by Yuan Mu, the speaker of the People Congress) of the words 動亂 « trouble/chaos » and then 暴亂 « rebellion/chaos ».

At that point, many students realised that the whole thing would turn bad. More vocal leaders appeared, and symbolic gestures, like the statue, became common. By that time, hopes of peaceful solution were gone.

As for the consequences of the protests and crackdown, I believe the economic consequences were very small. At best, it slowed China's growth for a year, but then, it was a relatively localised movement, which concerned more the intellectual sphere than the economic one.

But anyway, like all political movements, 1989 was a pretty idealist movement. These never are efficient in the short term, especially when they fail. Was the 4th of May movement efficient, were the first attempts to fight opium in China efficient?

The real consequences of 89 will need some more time to be understood.

[artao]

A Chinese gf of mine from Hainan was surprised when I told her it was the US who defeated the Japanese in WWII, she had been taught at school that it was the Chinese communist who fought the Japanese away.

I am also surprised about hearing that!

How can show that the US who defeated the Japanese in WWII?

China's school dosen't say it was the Chinese communist who fought the Japanese away. It was all Chinese, including oversea Chinese, and just foreigners, have fought the Japanese away.

[artao]

I was so surprised to see so many members continuously accuse PRC government for human rights, democracy, etc. But why can't we focus on the tragedies done by foreigners?! It is the PRC government that makes China one of the center of the world. However, some countries wanted to halt China from developing, so they spread out the cons of PRC. Let's see what foreign power had done to poor Chinese people:

1. Hailanpao Massacre: 1856 7,000 Chinese died

Hailanpao used to be a Chinese city of Qing dynasty. It locates on the north bank of Heilongjiang River. Before 1856, there were 64 Chinese cities and towns to the north of Heilongjiang, but in the Russia-China Beijing treaty, these areas were given to Russia. The Russian forced the Chinese citizens to leave their land, but more than 50,000 didn't. In order to drive the Chinese to the south bank of Heilongjiang, Russian soldiers arrested 7,000 Chinese residents and killed them and threw the bodies into the Heilongjiang River at Hailanpao. Russians renamed Hailanpao as Blagovescensk and finally drove the Chinese to the south. Other large Chinese cities such as Miaojie, Boli, and Haishenwai were also occupied by the Russians and were given Russian names.

2. Lushun Massacre: 1894 15,000 Chinese died

Lushun is a port city locates in Liaoning province. During the Sino-Japanese War in 1894, Japanese army seized Lushun. The cruel Japanese soldiers killed 15,000 Chinese in this city, and only left 20 of the citizens to bury the dead! After one day's killing, Lushun left nobody.

3. Beijing Massacre: 1900 5,000 Chinese died

After the Boxers' movement, foreign armies occupied Beijing. These countries include: Britain, France, German, Belgium, US, Japan, Italy, Austria. To defend Beijing, Qing and Boxers' army had a fierce battle outside Guangqu Gate with the allies. Finally, Guangqu Gate was destroyed by canons. The allied army poured into Beijing from Guangqu Gate. They killed every living thing as they marched along the streets, including dogs and cats. More than 3,000 Beijingers were killed. Now, there is a place in Beijing called "Suan Shi Kou", which means the allies' killing ended here. In their occupance of Beijing, they continued to kill Boxers, so totally 5,000 Beijing citizens were killed.

4. Nanjing Massacre: 1937, 300,000 Chinese died

Japanese occupied Shanghai and Nanjing in 1937. That time, Nanjing was the capital of ROC. The Japanese armies began killing and raping in Nanjing. There used to be a "killing race" between two Japanese generals. One of them killed 101 unarmed citizens a day, while the other killed 106! Thousands of Chinese poured into US embassy to shelter. The total died were more than 300,000.

5. Huabei Massacre: 1938-1942, countless Chinese died

During 1938-1942, the situation in China changed. The Japanese cannot sustain long because the rebels in China were numrous. In order to conquer the Chinese people, the Japanese began "Three empty policy", which is, kill everybody, burn down every house, grab every property. This policy was mainly taken in Huabei Plain. Hebei counties such as Wuji, Xingtang, Xinle, Gaocheng, Shenze, etc. were the target of the Japanese. When Japanese army occupied a village, no one will be alive! The total amount of victims cannot be estimated. At the surrender of the Japanese, there were hundreds of "Nobody" villages in Hebei province.

I think no single right can be more important than the right to live. When members began to criticize Chinese government, please do not forget these tragedies in Chinese history. We do not want these things to happen, and we want to keep along well with other nations.

[LaoPo]

A Chinese gf of mine from Hainan was surprised when I told her it was the US who defeated the Japanese in WWII, she had been taught at school that it was the Chinese communist who fought the Japanese away.

Yes, and JR Texas does have a point about the history books in China being written with an anti-Japanese slant (no racist pun intended). But I suppose we can expect a lot of carryover from the years of propaganda-style writings.

1. Almost every country in the world write their own-perspective history books....Japan is the ultimate with their denials about WWII and the massacres they committed; they even 'can't find' 'PROVE' about the sex-slave girls or the so-called 'Comfort Girls' who had to work as sex slaves (including European and Australian girls) for thousands and thousands of Japanese soldiers....talking about rape.... shame on them.

2. I can't blame the Chinese for having an anti-Japanese sentiment for this, especially because of the Japanese categorically denials of their shameful acts during WWII and previous years.

3. At least the Germans have admitted and (apologized for) their shame and sorrow for the enormous monstreous war Hitler cs created in Europe and far beyond...

LaoPo

[meemiathai]

I was so surprised to see so many members continuously accuse PRC government for human rights, democracy, etc. But why can't we focus on the tragedies done by foreigners?! It is the PRC government that makes China one of the center of the world. However, some countries wanted to halt China from developing, so they spread out the cons of PRC. Let's see what foreign power had done to poor Chinese people:

snipped

I am very happy to see you trying to post and communicate here.

Now, so far I have not seen any members here who are farangs(老外) really making accusations against the PRC's government. It was me who is half chinese half farang living in HK for 38yrs who was making negative comments. And to clariy, I was not accusing the government. As I have said earlier, I actually thought the government has been doing its best. I don't even think democracy would be a good idea for china especially at this very moment.

What I was actually unhappy about is, the situation now of how the chinese people are treating their own. The selfishness, greediness and cruelness of the chinese people themselves. Not the government. I guess the reality that there are 1.2 billion people trying to survive, it does turn their nature into something like that. But I am not sure. It does seem to me though that chinese people in general have a high IQ but are very very stupid when it comes to looking ahead. In other words they are quite short-sighted comparing with westerners. Also, they are not very concerned with quality but quantity.

Look at the Communist Party, what is good for China is not the most important thing, for each individual, it is a battlefield for power. And even for the leaders, each step they make has got to be careful. If you make a wrong move, others are there to with the excuse and would grab the power away from you. So, it is not easy even for leaders.

Don't get the impression that I hate China because I am critizing. I don't hate anyone.

Hope to see you post again and let us understand more.

But honestly was what I was accusing true?

[meemiathai]

A Chinese gf of mine from Hainan was surprised when I told her it was the US who defeated the Japanese in WWII, she had been taught at school that it was the Chinese communist who fought the Japanese away.

Yes, and JR Texas does have a point about the history books in China being written with an anti-Japanese slant (no racist pun intended). But I suppose we can expect a lot of carryover from the years of propaganda-style writings.

1. Almost every country in the world write their own-perspective history books....Japan is the ultimate with their denials about WWII and the massacres they committed; they even 'can't find' 'PROVE' about the sex-slave girls or the so-called 'Comfort Girls' who had to work as sex slaves (including European and Australian girls) for thousands and thousands of Japanese soldiers....talking about rape.... shame on them.

2. I can't blame the Chinese for having an anti-Japanese sentiment for this, especially because of the Japanese categorically denials of their shameful acts during WWII and previous years.

3. At least the Germans have admitted and (apologized for) their shame and sorrow for the enormous monstreous war Hitler cs created in Europe and far beyond...

LaoPo

Fully agreed.

I don't think the chinese government has really tried to create anti-japanese sentiments among its people. It is rather the inappropriate behaviour of the japanese government trying to deny what they have done(by altering history books) that has made the people (including myself) angry.

But Japanese products are so damm good! All chinese people want them!

[JR Texas]

A Chinese gf of mine from Hainan was surprised when I told her it was the US who defeated the Japanese in WWII, she had been taught at school that it was the Chinese communist who fought the Japanese away.

Yes, and JR Texas does have a point about the history books in China being written with an anti-Japanese slant (no racist pun intended). But I suppose we can expect a lot of carryover from the years of propaganda-style writings.

1. Almost every country in the world write their own-perspective history books....Japan is the ultimate with their denials about WWII and the massacres they committed; they even 'can't find' 'PROVE' about the sex-slave girls or the so-called 'Comfort Girls' who had to work as sex slaves (including European and Australian girls) for thousands and thousands of Japanese soldiers....talking about rape.... shame on them.

2. I can't blame the Chinese for having an anti-Japanese sentiment for this, especially because of the Japanese categorically denials of their shameful acts during WWII and previous years.

3. At least the Germans have admitted and (apologized for) their shame and sorrow for the enormous monstreous war Hitler cs created in Europe and far beyond...

LaoPo

Fully agreed.

I don't think the chinese government has really tried to create anti-japanese sentiments among its people. It is rather the inappropriate behaviour of the japanese government trying to deny what they have done(by altering history books) that has made the people (including myself) angry.

But Japanese products are so damm good! All chinese people want them!

JR Texas: The Chinese posters obviously know more than me......but I think your point is that xenophobia towards the Japanese does not need encouragement by the PRC elites. No doubt, grandfathers told fathers about the Japanese atrocities and fathers told today's sons. So, the flame is there..........

BUT, during my time in China the mainstream mass media constantly reminded viewers/readers of the atrocities committed by the Japanese during WWII, and we know who controls the mainstream mass media. I saw it on TV (daily affair), in the newspapers, and on printed posters in many strategic locations, even on the university grounds. So, my point is that the elites do want to keep the flame burning even hotter than it would without their input.

I talked with hundreds of students about this issue........I pointed out to them that the people they were so angry at are dead.....long since dead........and that the majority of Japanese youths have forgotten about it and perhaps they should also forget about it. (Fell on deaf ears.)

I also told them about what we (USA) did to Japan during WWII (the big bomb....two of them). And I pointed out that most Japanese youths do not carry around a grudge or feel hatred towards the USA, even after what we did to them. (Again.....fell on deaf ears.)

One thing I am curious about........and I would like to get an answer from the Chinese posters that are reading this........is what those speakers disguised as rocks and other things are telling the students in the morning and evening......how much propaganda is being spewed by them? I know they have them at virtually all Chinese schools......even at the university level. If they are saying: "Hate the Japanese over and over again......then we have a partial explanation as to why the feud continues."

Of course, the Japanese Govt. is partially at fault (I say partially because the Chinese soldiers were not angels during WWII) and should formally apologize and make the Chinese people believe it......maybe stop visiting that shrine in Japan devoted to the "heroes" during WWII (keeps pissing the Chinese off).

PEACE!

[chinthee]

A Chinese gf of mine from Hainan was surprised when I told her it was the US who defeated the Japanese in WWII, she had been taught at school that it was the Chinese communist who fought the Japanese away.

Yes, and JR Texas does have a point about the history books in China being written with an anti-Japanese slant (no racist pun intended). But I suppose we can expect a lot of carryover from the years of propaganda-style writings.

1. Almost every country in the world write their own-perspective history books....Japan is the ultimate with their denials about WWII and the massacres they committed; they even 'can't find' 'PROVE' about the sex-slave girls or the so-called 'Comfort Girls' who had to work as sex slaves (including European and Australian girls) for thousands and thousands of Japanese soldiers....talking about rape.... shame on them.

2. I can't blame the Chinese for having an anti-Japanese sentiment for this, especially because of the Japanese categorically denials of their shameful acts during WWII and previous years.

3. At least the Germans have admitted and (apologized for) their shame and sorrow for the enormous monstreous war Hitler cs created in Europe and far beyond...

LaoPo

Fully agreed.

I don't think the chinese government has really tried to create anti-japanese sentiments among its people. It is rather the inappropriate behaviour of the japanese government trying to deny what they have done(by altering history books) that has made the people (including myself) angry.

But Japanese products are so damm good! All chinese people want them!

JR Texas: The Chinese posters obviously know more than me......but I think your point is that xenophobia towards the Japanese does not need encouragement by the PRC elites. No doubt, grandfathers told fathers about the Japanese atrocities and fathers told today's sons. So, the flame is there..........

BUT, during my time in China the mainstream mass media constantly reminded viewers/readers of the atrocities committed by the Japanese during WWII, and we know who controls the mainstream mass media. I saw it on TV (daily affair), in the newspapers, and on printed posters in many strategic locations, even on the university grounds. So, my point is that the elites do want to keep the flame burning even hotter than it would without their input.

I talked with hundreds of students about this issue........I pointed out to them that the people they were so angry at are dead.....long since dead........and that the majority of Japanese youths have forgotten about it and perhaps they should also forget about it. (Fell on deaf ears.)

I also told them about what we (USA) did to Japan during WWII (the big bomb....two of them). And I pointed out that most Japanese youths do not carry around a grudge or feel hatred towards the USA, even after what we did to them. (Again.....fell on deaf ears.)

One thing I am curious about........and I would like to get an answer from the Chinese posters that are reading this........is what those speakers disguised as rocks and other things are telling the students in the morning and evening......how much propaganda is being spewed by them? I know they have them at virtually all Chinese schools......even at the university level. If they are saying: "Hate the Japanese over and over again......then we have a partial explanation as to why the feud continues."

Of course, the Japanese Govt. is partially at fault (I say partially because the Chinese soldiers were not angels during WWII) and should formally apologize and make the Chinese people believe it......maybe stop visiting that shrine in Japan devoted to the "heroes" during WWII (keeps pissing the Chinese off).

PEACE!

JR, I'm not Chinese, but have spent so much time in the country that I could almost be. Apart from that claim, I will tell you about a project that required me to station in Nanjing for about 3 months once. It was a big infrastructure investment project, and I was welcomed into the family of the factories, school, karaoke, etc.. I can tell you that the hatred and resentment runs to the bone and core of every person in that region at least, and they do pass this down to every child. And this was about 10 years ago. Maybe things have changed today but I doubt it.

[LaoPo]

A Chinese gf of mine from Hainan was surprised when I told her it was the US who defeated the Japanese in WWII, she had been taught at school that it was the Chinese communist who fought the Japanese away.

Yes, and JR Texas does have a point about the history books in China being written with an anti-Japanese slant (no racist pun intended). But I suppose we can expect a lot of carryover from the years of propaganda-style writings.

1. Almost every country in the world write their own-perspective history books....Japan is the ultimate with their denials about WWII and the massacres they committed; they even 'can't find' 'PROVE' about the sex-slave girls or the so-called 'Comfort Girls' who had to work as sex slaves (including European and Australian girls) for thousands and thousands of Japanese soldiers....talking about rape.... shame on them.

2. I can't blame the Chinese for having an anti-Japanese sentiment for this, especially because of the Japanese categorically denials of their shameful acts during WWII and previous years.

3. At least the Germans have admitted and (apologized for) their shame and sorrow for the enormous monstreous war Hitler cs created in Europe and far beyond...

LaoPo

Fully agreed.

I don't think the chinese government has really tried to create anti-japanese sentiments among its people. It is rather the inappropriate behaviour of the japanese government trying to deny what they have done(by altering history books) that has made the people (including myself) angry.

But Japanese products are so damm good! All chinese people want them!

JR Texas: The Chinese posters obviously know more than me......but I think your point is that xenophobia towards the Japanese does not need encouragement by the PRC elites. No doubt, grandfathers told fathers about the Japanese atrocities and fathers told today's sons. So, the flame is there..........

BUT, during my time in China the mainstream mass media constantly reminded viewers/readers of the atrocities committed by the Japanese during WWII, and we know who controls the mainstream mass media. I saw it on TV (daily affair), in the newspapers, and on printed posters in many strategic locations, even on the university grounds. So, my point is that the elites do want to keep the flame burning even hotter than it would without their input.

I talked with hundreds of students about this issue........I pointed out to them that the people they were so angry at are dead.....long since dead........and that the majority of Japanese youths have forgotten about it and perhaps they should also forget about it. (Fell on deaf ears.)

I also told them about what we (USA) did to Japan during WWII (the big bomb....two of them). And I pointed out that most Japanese youths do not carry around a grudge or feel hatred towards the USA, even after what we did to them. (Again.....fell on deaf ears.)

One thing I am curious about........and I would like to get an answer from the Chinese posters that are reading this........is what those speakers disguised as rocks and other things are telling the students in the morning and evening......how much propaganda is being spewed by them? I know they have them at virtually all Chinese schools......even at the university level. If they are saying: "Hate the Japanese over and over again......then we have a partial explanation as to why the feud continues."

Of course, the Japanese Govt. is partially at fault (I say partially because the Chinese soldiers were not angels during WWII) and should formally apologize and make the Chinese people believe it......maybe stop visiting that shrine in Japan devoted to the "heroes" during WWII (keeps pissing the Chinese off).

PEACE!

JR: maybe the Chinese people and government would be less harsh on the Japanese IF Japan would have been more honest to their own population AND China and paid respect and sorrow....ask for forgivingness for their behaviour.

(saving) face is extremely important in both countries as you know, and exactly THAT (lack of honesty and paying respect) is making the Chinese feel still bad about that behaviour.

And, it will continue to be so untill the Japanese pay their respect and ask for forgivingness; IF and WHEN that will be is the big question...

And, maybe the Chinese soldiers weren't angels during WWII also, but they didn't commit massacres (amongst civilians) in Japan, did they?

LaoPo

[JR Texas]

A Chinese gf of mine from Hainan was surprised when I told her it was the US who defeated the Japanese in WWII, she had been taught at school that it was the Chinese communist who fought the Japanese away.

Yes, and JR Texas does have a point about the history books in China being written with an anti-Japanese slant (no racist pun intended). But I suppose we can expect a lot of carryover from the years of propaganda-style writings.

1. Almost every country in the world write their own-perspective history books....Japan is the ultimate with their denials about WWII and the massacres they committed; they even 'can't find' 'PROVE' about the sex-slave girls or the so-called 'Comfort Girls' who had to work as sex slaves (including European and Australian girls) for thousands and thousands of Japanese soldiers....talking about rape.... shame on them.

2. I can't blame the Chinese for having an anti-Japanese sentiment for this, especially because of the Japanese categorically denials of their shameful acts during WWII and previous years.

3. At least the Germans have admitted and (apologized for) their shame and sorrow for the enormous monstreous war Hitler cs created in Europe and far beyond...

LaoPo

Fully agreed.

I don't think the chinese government has really tried to create anti-japanese sentiments among its people. It is rather the inappropriate behaviour of the japanese government trying to deny what they have done(by altering history books) that has made the people (including myself) angry.

But Japanese products are so damm good! All chinese people want them!

JR Texas: The Chinese posters obviously know more than me......but I think your point is that xenophobia towards the Japanese does not need encouragement by the PRC elites. No doubt, grandfathers told fathers about the Japanese atrocities and fathers told today's sons. So, the flame is there..........

BUT, during my time in China the mainstream mass media constantly reminded viewers/readers of the atrocities committed by the Japanese during WWII, and we know who controls the mainstream mass media. I saw it on TV (daily affair), in the newspapers, and on printed posters in many strategic locations, even on the university grounds. So, my point is that the elites do want to keep the flame burning even hotter than it would without their input.

I talked with hundreds of students about this issue........I pointed out to them that the people they were so angry at are dead.....long since dead........and that the majority of Japanese youths have forgotten about it and perhaps they should also forget about it. (Fell on deaf ears.)

I also told them about what we (USA) did to Japan during WWII (the big bomb....two of them). And I pointed out that most Japanese youths do not carry around a grudge or feel hatred towards the USA, even after what we did to them. (Again.....fell on deaf ears.)

One thing I am curious about........and I would like to get an answer from the Chinese posters that are reading this........is what those speakers disguised as rocks and other things are telling the students in the morning and evening......how much propaganda is being spewed by them? I know they have them at virtually all Chinese schools......even at the university level. If they are saying: "Hate the Japanese over and over again......then we have a partial explanation as to why the feud continues."

Of course, the Japanese Govt. is partially at fault (I say partially because the Chinese soldiers were not angels during WWII) and should formally apologize and make the Chinese people believe it......maybe stop visiting that shrine in Japan devoted to the "heroes" during WWII (keeps pissing the Chinese off).

PEACE!

JR: maybe the Chinese people and government would be less harsh on the Japanese IF Japan would have been more honest to their own population AND China and paid respect and sorrow....ask for forgivingness for their behaviour.

(saving) face is extremely important in both countries as you know, and exactly THAT (lack of honesty and paying respect) is making the Chinese feel still bad about that behaviour.

And, it will continue to be so untill the Japanese pay their respect and ask for forgivingness; IF and WHEN that will be is the big question...

And, maybe the Chinese soldiers weren't angels during WWII also, but they didn't commit massacres (amongst civilians) in Japan, did they?

LaoPo

JR Texas: Yes, I think the Japanese Govt. needs to submit a genuine, formal apology in a way that the Chinese Govt. can acccept.......it is my understanding that the Japanese Govt. has submitted an apology, but it was not in a way that was received by the Chinese as authentic. My point about atrocities is that all wars involve atrocities.....it is the nature of war. Obviously, the Japanese did horrible things on Chinese soil during WWII.

[j_cheung]

I was so surprised to see so many members continuously accuse PRC government for human rights, democracy, etc. But why can't we focus on the tragedies done by foreigners?! It is the PRC government that makes China one of the center of the world. However, some countries wanted to halt China from developing, so they spread out the cons of PRC. Let's see what foreign power had done to poor Chinese people:

snipped

I am very happy to see you trying to post and communicate here.

Now, so far I have not seen any members here who are farangs(老外) really making accusations against the PRC's government. It was me who is half chinese half farang living in HK for 38yrs who was making negative comments. And to clariy, I was not accusing the government. As I have said earlier, I actually thought the government has been doing its best. I don't even think democracy would be a good idea for china especially at this very moment.

What I was actually unhappy about is, the situation now of how the chinese people are treating their own. The selfishness, greediness and cruelness of the chinese people themselves. Not the government. I guess the reality that there are 1.2 billion people trying to survive, it does turn their nature into something like that. But I am not sure. It does seem to me though that chinese people in general have a high IQ but are very very stupid when it comes to looking ahead. In other words they are quite short-sighted comparing with westerners. Also, they are not very concerned with quality but quantity.

Look at the Communist Party, what is good for China is not the most important thing, for each individual, it is a battlefield for power. And even for the leaders, each step they make has got to be careful. If you make a wrong move, others are there to with the excuse and would grab the power away from you. So, it is not easy even for leaders.

Don't get the impression that I hate China because I am critizing. I don't hate anyone.

Hope to see you post again and let us understand more.

But honestly was what I was accusing true?

After what China has been through at the turn of last century, I believe that most today are more concerned about improving and enriching themselves than in any popular idealistic movement to "save the motherland". Just look at how they engorge themselves at evening meals, muscle their way on public transports or recklessly drive on roadways today. Everyone is in a big rush to get whatever they can either to forget their dreaded past or to secure anything that could be taken away at a political whilm tomorrow. It will take time and patience to re-establish a sense of balance.

Since many lost or never had anything of value after the Cultural Revolution, materialistic quantity counts more than aesthetic quality. Beggars can't be choosers. Having said that, isn't such short-term opportunism and long-range flexibility that enpowered the first generation of post-war overseas Chinese tycoons as well?

[meemiathai]

You are quite right, I supposed.

[meemiathai]

Actually I am planning to only spend holidays in China for the following few years and to see it myself what it really is like. There are lots of places I would like to see.

[bendix]

There's no way I would live somewhere with such an appalling human rights record, particularly on the arbitrary use of the death penalty. I find the whole 'China fixation' appalling and fervently hope one day that the so-called economic miracle the western world jerks itself off over collapses and China once again becomes a bemusing side issue in world affairs.

[chinthee]

There's no way I would live somewhere with such an appalling human rights record, particularly on the arbitrary use of the death penalty. I find the whole 'China fixation' appalling and fervently hope one day that the so-called economic miracle the western world jerks itself off over collapses and China once again becomes a bemusing side issue in world affairs.

Anyone have that graphic of the flying pig?

[j_cheung]

There's no way I would live somewhere with such an appalling human rights record, particularly on the arbitrary use of the death penalty. I find the whole 'China fixation' appalling and fervently hope one day that the so-called economic miracle the western world jerks itself off over collapses and China once again becomes a bemusing side issue in world affairs.

And if that dreadful day comes, do you think the West (with its countless factories & plants based in the Pearl & Yangzi River Deltas) can escape unscathed? ... Let alone a resource exporting country like Thailand? Be careful of what you wish for ...

[bendix]

The world survived perfectly well without Chinese demand for decades and decades. We can do so again. There is always the resource hungry India to pick up the slack and they, so far as I know, are not in the habit of parading petty criminals around crowded football stadiums, inciting the crowds to bay for blood, before putting a bullet in the back of their heads and selling their body parts for transplants.

Civilised society my arse.

[ThaiPauly]

They say Kunming is very nice at this time of year...or anytime of year for that matter!!

[meemiathai]

I can't understand, Bendix, you want the whole race to go to hel_l? You don't think that there are good and bad people within every race? You like to see even good people suffer? You mentioned the charity work you did helping thai people so would you not do it if they were chinese? Do you treat everyone regardless of race fairly?

[chinthee]

I can't understand, Bendix, you want the whole race to go to hel_l? You don't think that there are good and bad people within every race? You like to see even good people suffer? You mentioned the charity work you did helping thai people so would you not do it if they were chinese? Do you treat everyone regardless of race fairly?

Meemaithai, please don't clutter up this very productive thread responding to such utter nonsense. Thanks.

[nonthaburial]

I can not understand why the ranters carry on as they do, their input certainly does not help the op in his quest of whether or he he should go to China.

But it does very clearly show that racism is still alive and kicking !!

[meemiathai]

I can't understand, Bendix, you want the whole race to go to hel_l? You don't think that there are good and bad people within every race? You like to see even good people suffer? You mentioned the charity work you did helping thai people so would you not do it if they were chinese? Do you treat everyone regardless of race fairly?

Meemaithai, please don't clutter up this very productive thread responding to such utter nonsense. Thanks.

Point taken.

But I think everyone's post is important. If it is true words, then I think there should be as much attention to be paid and hopefully through discussions new perspectives can be made. Perhaps the world tomorrow would be a better place?

[bendix]

I can't understand, Bendix, you want the whole race to go to hel_l? You don't think that there are good and bad people within every race? You like to see even good people suffer? You mentioned the charity work you did helping thai people so would you not do it if they were chinese? Do you treat everyone regardless of race fairly?

Huh?

What has race got to do with it? My comments have nothing to do with race and I resent the slur. I'm talking about a morally corrupt dictatorial and callous regime which suppresses the political, civil, religious and human rights of its billion+ people.

There are no good people at the top of the Chinese leadership. There are, instead, career dictators and auto-didacts.

That is why i hope the regime falls in upon itself and why I abhor the hypocracy of the western world who get morally sanctimonious and imposes trade sanctions on relatively innocuous countries like Cuba, yet wet themselves when it comes to do business with this bunch of thugs.

Still, as Mao himself once said, 'Why let bad politics spoil good business," huh?

Edited June 26, 2007 by bendix

[chinthee]

This will get bloody if I roll up my sleeves. I haven't decided if I'm in the mood yet, but sometimes I enjoy snacking on young, inexperienced and uninformed zealots.

[ashacat]

What has race got to do with it? My comments have nothing to do with race and I resent the slur. I'm talking about a morally corrupt dictatorial and callous regime which suppresses the political, civil, religious and human rights of its billion+ people.

There are no good people at the top of the Chinese leadership. There are, instead, career dictators and auto-didacts.

That is why i hope the regime falls in upon itself and why I abhor the hypocricy of the western world who get morally sanctimonious and imposes trade sanctions on relatively innocuous countries like Cuba, yet wet themselves when it comes to do business with this bunch of thugs.

Still, as Mao himself once said, 'Why let bad politics spoil good business," huh?

Great post. I wholeheartedly agree with your views.

[artao]

The world survived perfectly well without Chinese demand for decades and decades. We can do so again. There is always the resource hungry India to pick up the slack and they, so far as I know, are not in the habit of parading petty criminals around crowded football stadiums, inciting the crowds to bay for blood, before putting a bullet in the back of their heads and selling their body parts for transplants.

Civilised society my arse.

Maybe he thinks China has nothing with merit, but Chinese civilization has survived for 5000 years, longer than any other. Those adversaries of China in history disappeared one by one.....

[bkkmei]

Just wanted to add a few things:

- People seem much more patriotic now - especially anti-Japanese. I think this hatred is stirred up by the govt at convenient times to channel the unrest of those missing out on the economic miracle (I think this is what JR Texas said).

- I don't know if it was in the news in Thailand, but I was in HK this June 4th, when a Chengdu newspaper 'accidentally' printed a tribute to the mothers of the Tiananmen massacred. Their explanation? The person responsible for editing the ad didn't know what was being referred to. That's either a great excuse or very very sad.

My personal relationship with China is one of extremes: I either love it or hate it!!

can't agree with you.

1) anti-Japanese is not stirred up by the govt but the govt lets it alone.

2) as far as the Chengdu newspaper 's report, it is meaningless, just coincident in number:64. the newspaper as follows:

artao - thanks for posting the extract. I read though that the editors were questioned about the ad and some were sacked too. Is that true? And if so, then is it really meaningless? (If not true, then I guess the foreign media overreacted?)

as for the anti-Japanese sentiment - sure there is enough ingrained hatred and sometimes, actions by the Japanese government can certainly be seen as provocative. But when I was there in the 90s, there were loads of Japanese students on campus and I never heard of any anti-J feeling towards them. (My roommate was Japanese and she expressed shame at what she had learnt about wartime atrocities whilst she was in China). I don't know if now people are allowed to be more vocal and demonstrative on these 'safer' issues i.e. anti-J feeling, versus taboo subjects e.g. anti-Communist, which is why you get these big demos, Japanese students being beaten up etc. I think the govt now sees those recent demos/riots as getting all a bit out of hand...

meemiathai: I can't agree: the air seems so much fresher in HK than in BKK! (Note 'seems' - not sure if it actually 'is'!)