New Political Party Ready To Launch

[blaze]

Does the fact that the junta will not allow a specific party, regardless of how popular it is, (or unpopular in some circles) to 'gain control' not worry you? Why bother with elections at all then?

Sorry to sound pedantic- but the essential principle underlying democracy is that while I might believe that a certain party, should it attain power, will destroy the country- I agree to defend the right of the majority to elect that party and for that party to serve out its term in accordance with law.

Theoretically I agree with you, but you are arguing from a purist standpoint and this simply isn't the type of democracy we have here (yet). Realistically, if the PPP gains power we will be back to a group that will have no problem dismantling any constitution and all checks and balances. At the end of the day, there will be little difference between what the junta has done and what that group will do. However, if the next government is a different one, then there is a chance that this country will move forward. Sometimes the ends justifies the means.

Well please explain just what kind of democracy it is wherein a party, if elected by a majority of the population, must meet with the approval of the military- and not a military, I might add, that has distinguished itself with advanced training in the arts of economic and social engineering- let aqlone keeping its money grabbing paws out of the system it is supposed to be protecting and not enriching itself from- before it can assume power.

The possession of the biggest arsenal in the land does not qualify a specific group of people to determine what is and what is not in the nation's best interest.

Though it certainly helps them secure what is in their OWN best interest.

That's NO kind of democracy. That is a dictatorship with a bunch of stooges doing the army's bidding.

And yes, I certainly have heard the notion that 'the means justify the ends'- in connection with Guantanamo Bay.

Edited October 26, 2007 by blaze

[blaze]

For the moment I think this debate is a bit premature as I feel once the clock run past a certain point where the PPP/TRT can’t regroup they will be disqualified one way or the other for being proxies of club 111.

Samak has already been silenced internally to a certain extent as you don’t hear much about being a proxy any more. I would not doubt there is some damage control underway via Thaksin money to avoid the above mentioned fate.

The documents in question recently in the news would tend to support that based on the time frame the documents came to light. Samak was up in Isaan getting disrespected around September 25 and announcing he was proud to be Thaksin’s proxy just around the other date. I think it is fair to say the fuse has been lit and all that is left is the explosion.

Personally I think the Junta would quite like to see PPP run and be defeated, which is entirely feasible. However, if they think there is a chance PPP may actaully win I wouldnt want to second guess what their reaction may be. Lets wait until when MPs can no longer jump ship then it should be relatively easy to predict how things will go as sitting MPs rarely lose and this is even more so the case up country where PPP is strong.

If you step back several steps and look at the very big picture, nearly all the changes in laws are directed at seeing that ‘a’ Thaksin does not happen again. The PPP/TRT are trying for all their worth to make it happen again.

This alone makes it very difficult for the old ways to happen and forces them to play by the rules (at least on the surface). I agree when they day comes and goes where the MP’s can’t jump ship is when the fuse will find the powder.

As for the junta wanting to see the PPP/TRT go down in defeat in the polls, you can bet there will be all kinds of crying and bad mouthing going on. “It’s not fair” seems to be a common phrase I have heard from them in the past. Then they more than likely they will try to organize their own coup would be the next step based on how they think. There is no way they plan to wait out the remainder of the five years.

Yes the new charter was written to try and avoid a new T. Maybe that will work and maybe not. However, I just feel that the Junta would prefer to see PPP beaten electorally in what can be seen internationally as a reasonably fair election rather than by red carding them out of existence or banning them. However, I wouldnt want to bet on the Junta not employing the other options if it looks like PPP could win. That the Junta would like to see PPP beaten electorally probably sets the battleground now. PPP try to play up tricks against them to make the election look unfair and to get sympathey while the Junta try to play up PPP's use of money to buy thsoe unbeatable ex-MPs with a tad of vote buying. There will also no doubt be attempts to transfer sitting MPs away from various parties. What it really shows is neither side is willing to leave this totally to the vagaries of any kind of fair election. Both sides will use every trick they can to win the power struggle. Just notice the singular lack of policies by most to notice how this is about rounding up tied votes rather than appealing to people to vote a policy platform.

I disagree that the new charter was wrtitten to try to avoid a new T.

It was written to try to establish Thailand as a Constitutional Monarchy under the protection of the military. For as long as that can last.

It was sold to the middle and upper classes and indeed the more gullable in the international community- as trying to avoid a new T.

It is, I think, wrong to assume that once the remnants of the PPP/TRT Thaksin cabal are out of the picture that the military would welcome a fully functioning democracy- any party- any individuals or policies that differ substantially from those backed by the military will not happen. Yes there will be crumbs- the odd officer here and there tried for blatantly mafia behavior, loud protests from some generals about small policy issues- but anything that really threatens the good of the nation - as determined by the military- will not be premitte.

From here on in- there is only one government. The stooges who will allowed and used to present a democratic face to the world will understand that. If they don't- the senate will make damned short work of them.

And the money politics will go on- what will not be permitted will be a real change in the direction of Thai society- which. with education left to fester, the working poor (most of the country) deprived of any semblence of power, and an economy which will continue to trade cheap labor for foreign investment- will be backwards.

Edited October 26, 2007 by blaze

[John K]

Blaze, I think it is fair to say it does more than just one thing. Your point is just as valid. I think if we go back and look at some of the clippings over the past year there will be supporting evidence for both and more.

[blaze]

Blaze, I think it is fair to say it does more than just one thing. Your point is just as valid. I think if we go back and look at some of the clippings over the past year there will be supporting evidence for both and more.

WHAT does more than just one thing? The coup? Certainly it does. Many things. It puts the military back on the footing that it has felt robbed of for the last 80 years- by constitutionally assuring it a role for in politics. It has set a precedent as a relatively benign event, thus preparing the public for more happy holidays like that on Sept 19, last year. It has institutionally ensured that the majority will not develop a voice independent of that which the military has assigned them. Oh- and it got rid of Thaksin in the process. Which may be important to some on this board- but in the big picture, - well who remembers the name of the elected PM that General Franco 'saved' Spain from?

Edited October 26, 2007 by blaze

[Plus]

PPP is nothing but reincarnation of the banned TRT and they should not be allowed to run in the first place.

If you say that it was a military decision I would strongly disagree - TRT fully deserved to be dissolved for what they've done during last elections.

Back in the PAD days I argued that the rule of law should come before the vote count and I will say it again. The law must come first, without it it's not a democracy, it's a jungle.

PPP is trying to circumvent the law banning TRT and its execs in all possible ways and try to officially run as Thaksin's nominee party. So far they haven't been legally caught yet but they are not fooling anyone and sooner or later they'll face the music just like TRT did.

I agree with Hammered that on one hand it would probably be better if they lost in elections, but if it means that they managed to undermine strict rules in the new Consitution it would be a pyrrhic victory.

[blaze]

PPP is nothing but reincarnation of the banned TRT and they should not be allowed to run in the first place.

If you say that it was a military decision I would strongly disagree - TRT fully deserved to be dissolved for what they've done during last elections.

Back in the PAD days I argued that the rule of law should come before the vote count and I will say it again. The law must come first, without it it's not a democracy, it's a jungle.

PPP is trying to circumvent the law banning TRT and its execs in all possible ways and try to officially run as Thaksin's nominee party. So far they haven't been legally caught yet but they are not fooling anyone and sooner or later they'll face the music just like TRT did.

I agree with Hammered that on one hand it would probably be better if they lost in elections, but if it means that they managed to undermine strict rules in the new Consitution it would be a pyrrhic victory.

It is not up to you nor I to decide whether or not the PPP 'should' be allowed to run. (that is, if we truly believe in the rule of law).That is the EC's job- and the courts. By permitting them to run in the coming election, the law says that they WILL, if they secure the requisite number of votes and unless electoral shenanigans can be proved, form the next government.

Anyway, I expect the PPP can't win outright- but if they were to, the army has plans to make sure that they never form a government- perhaps arresting Samak for one thing or another right after the results are declared. It's a dirty dirty game- and will show once and for all just how phoney this coup's claim to want to advance the cause of democracy was. (If they have dirt on Samak- or the PPP, so as to ensure that a lot of votes aren't wasted, why not take action now? Well, because that's the intent- to channel all anti coup votes into one camp and THEN- burn down the camp.)

By allowing him to lead the PPP, and then arresting him, the military will manage to invalidate the votes of most of those who opposed their charter and in fact the coup. It would be interesting to see how that plays- internationally as well as at home. But as said, I doubt the PPP will get that far.

The so called 'secret documents' have adequately demonstrated that the army has no intention of turning democracy loose on the people- or vice verca.

[Old Man River]

It's a dirty dirty game- and will show once and for all just how phoney this coup's claim to want to advance the cause of democracy was.

You sound as if politics is clean where you come from. It isn't. Its a dirty, dirty game wherever you are from.

[sriracha john]

The so called 'secret documents' have adequately demonstrated that the army has no intention of turning democracy loose on the people- or vice verca.

When is Samak releasing these documents he has to the general public so that we may truly decide if they "adequately demonstrate" anything?

[blaze]

The so called 'secret documents' have adequately demonstrated that the army has no intention of turning democracy loose on the people- or vice verca.

When is Samak releasing these documents he has to the general public so that we may truly decide if they "adequately demonstrate" anything?

Both the Nation and the Post have included, in the last two days, highlights of the documents- for whatever reason, both those organs seem to accept their veracity. Perhaps they pulled them from Thaksin's website.

[blaze]

It's a dirty dirty game- and will show once and for all just how phoney this coup's claim to want to advance the cause of democracy was.

You sound as if politics is clean where you come from. It isn't. Its a dirty, dirty game wherever you are from.

I can't recall the last time in my country that the army permitted a party to run for government- and then nullified it's win by arresting the leader of the party. IF that is, in fact the way that a PPP win would play out.

It is not me who makes it sound like politics is clean in the west- it is those whose cynicism about the dirty nature of Thai politics prompts them to give up entirely on the ideals of democracy and welcome a sham form of politics where the military and not the ballot box is the final determinant in who governs.

[hammered]

It's a dirty dirty game- and will show once and for all just how phoney this coup's claim to want to advance the cause of democracy was.

You sound as if politics is clean where you come from. It isn't. Its a dirty, dirty game wherever you are from.

I can't recall the last time in my country that the army permitted a party to run for government- and then nullified it's win by arresting the leader of the party. IF that is, in fact the way that a PPP win would play out.

It is not me who makes it sound like politics is clean in the west- it is those whose cynicism about the dirty nature of Thai politics prompts them to give up entirely on the ideals of democracy and welcome a sham form of politics where the military and not the ballot box is the final determinant in who governs.

Thailand has been seen as a partial democracy for quite a long time. It will porbably remain this way for some time to come as nobody on any side of this power struggle is interested in really empowering people beyond anything further than some new or revised kind of patronage system. The power struggle is all about who gets to pull all the strings behind the partial democracy: either the military (in the acsendency right now) or the Thaksinistas (in the ascendency before), and who wins can still change. Nothing to do with eductaing people to the level where they can make informed decisions, or democracy or any of that stuff although both sides want to feature elections quite highly.

[sriracha john]

The so called 'secret documents' have adequately demonstrated that the army has no intention of turning democracy loose on the people- or vice verca.

When is Samak releasing these documents he has to the general public so that we may truly decide if they "adequately demonstrate" anything?

Both the Nation and the Post have included, in the last two days, highlights of the documents- for whatever reason, both those organs seem to accept their veracity. Perhaps they pulled them from Thaksin's website.

So we are expected to believe that the Army is going to assassinate Samak and that he chose not to flee the country in mortal fear for his life the very day he found out about it, but instead holds a press conferences in his garden? :D

Edited October 27, 2007 by sriracha john

[blaze]

The so called 'secret documents' have adequately demonstrated that the army has no intention of turning democracy loose on the people- or vice verca.

When is Samak releasing these documents he has to the general public so that we may truly decide if they "adequately demonstrate" anything?

Both the Nation and the Post have included, in the last two days, highlights of the documents- for whatever reason, both those organs seem to accept their veracity. Perhaps they pulled them from Thaksin's website.

So we are expected to believe that the Army is going to assassinate Samak and that he chose not to flee the country in mortal fear for his life the very day he found out about it, but instead holds a press conferences in his garden? :D

I wasn't aware that the documents contain a plan to assassinate Samak- or that anyone has made that claim- however, summarizing the document's contents, Samak did say, "It would be pointed out that should the PPP win the election, the corruption charges against the party leader would prevent him becoming the next prime minister..."

It is odd that this claim has not been flat out disputed by those in the government that have seen the document.

[Tony Clifton]

It is also odd that he's allowed to run and act as party leader while he's already under a suspended two year jail sentence and very likely to be found guilty of corruption with the fire truck purchase.

[sriracha john]

Samak claimed the mission entailed getting the media to misinform the public and to belittle the party’s populist policies and even involved "getting rid of certain members."

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=122899

The so called 'secret documents' have adequately demonstrated that the army has no intention of turning democracy loose on the people- or vice verca.

When is Samak releasing these documents he has to the general public so that we may truly decide if they "adequately demonstrate" anything?

Both the Nation and the Post have included, in the last two days, highlights of the documents- for whatever reason, both those organs seem to accept their veracity. Perhaps they pulled them from Thaksin's website.

So we are expected to believe that the Army is going to assassinate Samak and that he chose not to flee the country in mortal fear for his life the very day he found out about it, but instead holds a press conferences in his garden? :D

I wasn't aware that the documents contain a plan to assassinate Samak- or that anyone has made that claim

As per above and more:

The Defense Minister confirms that the army will not try to assassinate the People's Power party leader after he came out to uncover the junta's classified documents, containing orders to related state agencies to prevent the People's Power party from returning to power.

- Thailand Outlook

[hammered]

The so called 'secret documents' have adequately demonstrated that the army has no intention of turning democracy loose on the people- or vice verca.

When is Samak releasing these documents he has to the general public so that we may truly decide if they "adequately demonstrate" anything?

Both the Nation and the Post have included, in the last two days, highlights of the documents- for whatever reason, both those organs seem to accept their veracity. Perhaps they pulled them from Thaksin's website.

So we are expected to believe that the Army is going to assassinate Samak and that he chose not to flee the country in mortal fear for his life the very day he found out about it, but instead holds a press conferences in his garden? :D

I wasn't aware that the documents contain a plan to assassinate Samak- or that anyone has made that claim- however, summarizing the document's contents, Samak did say, "It would be pointed out that should the PPP win the election, the corruption charges against the party leader would prevent him becoming the next prime minister..."

It is odd that this claim has not been flat out disputed by those in the government that have seen the document.

]

The fact is if we believe in the law Samak's own statement could well be true. If his appeal goes down he wont be able to lead the country, if his party wins. This may also be why nobody will deny what everyone understands could happen because of a legal case. It is wrong to try to preempt a legal case and in this whatever we think of them the authorities are acting correctly. It may even be that the serial human rights abuser Samak was selected to be the leader of the T mans party because there was a fairly good chance that at some point he would be banned due to an outstanding case that was initiated before he became the proxy leader of PPP. This would certainly fit with the we are victims meme currently in vogue at PPP central. Why would a serious politcal party choose someone to lead it who was only able to run by dint of an appeal and who had already been found guilty by a court?

By the way it was Samak during his statement who suggested he may be assasinated, but that fits with his usual political melodramatic style. Somewhat ironic too when Samak goes on about fear of the authorities assassinating him considering his past links to a massacre.

Edited October 27, 2007 by hammered

[blaze]

The so called 'secret documents' have adequately demonstrated that the army has no intention of turning democracy loose on the people- or vice verca.

When is Samak releasing these documents he has to the general public so that we may truly decide if they "adequately demonstrate" anything?

Both the Nation and the Post have included, in the last two days, highlights of the documents- for whatever reason, both those organs seem to accept their veracity. Perhaps they pulled them from Thaksin's website.

So we are expected to believe that the Army is going to assassinate Samak and that he chose not to flee the country in mortal fear for his life the very day he found out about it, but instead holds a press conferences in his garden? :D

I wasn't aware that the documents contain a plan to assassinate Samak- or that anyone has made that claim- however, summarizing the document's contents, Samak did say, "It would be pointed out that should the PPP win the election, the corruption charges against the party leader would prevent him becoming the next prime minister..."

It is odd that this claim has not been flat out disputed by those in the government that have seen the document.

]

The fact is if we believe in the law Samak's own statement could well be true. If his appeal goes down he wont be able to lead the country, if his party wins. This may also be why nobody will deny what everyone understands could happen because of a legal case. It is wrong to try to preempt a legal case and in this whatever we think of them the authorities are acting correctly. It may even be that the serial human rights abuser Samak was selected to be the leader of the T mans party because there was a fairly good chance that at some point he would be banned due to an outstanding case that was initiated before he became the proxy leader of PPP. This would certainly fit with the we are victims meme currently in vogue at PPP central. Why would a serious politcal party choose someone to lead it who was only able to run by dint of an appeal and who had already been found guilty by a court?

By the way it was Samak during his statement who suggested he may be assasinated, but that fits with his usual political melodramatic style. Somewhat ironic too when Samak goes on about fear of the authorities assassinating him considering his past links to a massacre.

Would it not be more fair to those who will vote PPP to clear all possible legal obstructions to Samak becoming PM before the poll. IF they (the courts, police, army) have enough on Samak to prosecute why delay- I understand the courts are full- but surely if the person might possibly become the next prime minister of the country, that case could be expedited.

Unless, as so often is the case in Thailand- the potential for prosecution is part of the weaponry to be unleashed on political enemies- and the threat of prosecution offers either a bargaining tool- or a post dated bomb to be triggered when it best serves the powers. (who ever the powers might be).

Also I still don't know where the assasination claim was made (the post link doesn't work for me). Certainly there are more ways of "getting rid" of an opponent than assassinating him- imprisonment being one. But regardless- whether or not Samak sincerely believes that he might be assassinated- it's not like assainations are not part of the political weaponry commonly deployed at election time in this fair land (remember - which election was it- when about seventy canvassers were slaughtered- about 15 years ago or so).

Edited October 27, 2007 by blaze

[hammered]

The so called 'secret documents' have adequately demonstrated that the army has no intention of turning democracy loose on the people- or vice verca.

When is Samak releasing these documents he has to the general public so that we may truly decide if they "adequately demonstrate" anything?

Both the Nation and the Post have included, in the last two days, highlights of the documents- for whatever reason, both those organs seem to accept their veracity. Perhaps they pulled them from Thaksin's website.

So we are expected to believe that the Army is going to assassinate Samak and that he chose not to flee the country in mortal fear for his life the very day he found out about it, but instead holds a press conferences in his garden? :D

I wasn't aware that the documents contain a plan to assassinate Samak- or that anyone has made that claim- however, summarizing the document's contents, Samak did say, "It would be pointed out that should the PPP win the election, the corruption charges against the party leader would prevent him becoming the next prime minister..."

It is odd that this claim has not been flat out disputed by those in the government that have seen the document.

]

The fact is if we believe in the law Samak's own statement could well be true. If his appeal goes down he wont be able to lead the country, if his party wins. This may also be why nobody will deny what everyone understands could happen because of a legal case. It is wrong to try to preempt a legal case and in this whatever we think of them the authorities are acting correctly. It may even be that the serial human rights abuser Samak was selected to be the leader of the T mans party because there was a fairly good chance that at some point he would be banned due to an outstanding case that was initiated before he became the proxy leader of PPP. This would certainly fit with the we are victims meme currently in vogue at PPP central. Why would a serious politcal party choose someone to lead it who was only able to run by dint of an appeal and who had already been found guilty by a court?

By the way it was Samak during his statement who suggested he may be assasinated, but that fits with his usual political melodramatic style. Somewhat ironic too when Samak goes on about fear of the authorities assassinating him considering his past links to a massacre.

Would it not be more fair to those who will vote PPP to clear all possible legal obstructions to Samak becoming PM before the poll. IF they (the courts, police, army) have enough on Samak to prosecute why delay- I understand the courts are full- but surely if the person might possibly become the next prime minister of the country, that case could be expedited.

Unless, as so often is the case in Thailand- the potential for prosecution is part of the weaponry to be unleashed on political enemies- and the threat of prosecution offers either a bargaining tool- or a post dated bomb to be triggered when it best serves the powers. (who ever the powers might be).

Also I still don't know where the assasination claim was made (the post link doesn't work for me). Certainly there are more ways of "getting rid" of an opponent than assassinating him- imprisonment being one. But regardless- whether or not Samak sincerely believes that he might be assassinated- it's not like assainations are not part of the political weaponry commonly deployed at election time in this fair land (remember - which election was it- when about seventy canvassers were slaughtered- about 15 years ago or so).

The problem with this is that he has been found guilty by a court already. Under Thai law if he appeals he is not banned until the end of the appeal process and now that means potentially two more courts. It could take ages, but this is not unusuakl in Thailand the cynical will tell you this actually is to favour the defendent so he may remain free for up to a decde while the cases progress and then finally get cleared on some techniciality when the case is no longer in vogue or to bne so old it is easy to claim health grounds to postpone a decision forever. Maybe it could theoretically be expedited but that would probably need the agreement of the courts, prosecution and defence and that is unlikely. It may have been easier if Thailand just had a law that said you were banned when found guilty rather than with the appeals being allowed to keep it hanging for a long time. I honestly think this all just part of the politcal game rememeber this case and the appeal process were known about long before he was selected as leader. What responsible oparty would select someone already found guilty to be its leader? PPP certainly had better and more honest candidates such as Chatchuron and didnt need to select someone with such a tainted record let alone a currently standing conviction.

[sriracha john]

The so called 'secret documents' have adequately demonstrated that the army has no intention of turning democracy loose on the people- or vice verca.

When is Samak releasing these documents he has to the general public so that we may truly decide if they "adequately demonstrate" anything?

Both the Nation and the Post have included, in the last two days, highlights of the documents- for whatever reason, both those organs seem to accept their veracity. Perhaps they pulled them from Thaksin's website.

So we are expected to believe that the Army is going to assassinate Samak and that he chose not to flee the country in mortal fear for his life the very day he found out about it, but instead holds a press conferences in his garden? :D

I wasn't aware that the documents contain a plan to assassinate Samak- or that anyone has made that claim- however, summarizing the document's contents, Samak did say, "It would be pointed out that should the PPP win the election, the corruption charges against the party leader would prevent him becoming the next prime minister..."

It is odd that this claim has not been flat out disputed by those in the government that have seen the document.

]

The fact is if we believe in the law Samak's own statement could well be true. If his appeal goes down he wont be able to lead the country, if his party wins. This may also be why nobody will deny what everyone understands could happen because of a legal case. It is wrong to try to preempt a legal case and in this whatever we think of them the authorities are acting correctly. It may even be that the serial human rights abuser Samak was selected to be the leader of the T mans party because there was a fairly good chance that at some point he would be banned due to an outstanding case that was initiated before he became the proxy leader of PPP. This would certainly fit with the we are victims meme currently in vogue at PPP central. Why would a serious politcal party choose someone to lead it who was only able to run by dint of an appeal and who had already been found guilty by a court?

By the way it was Samak during his statement who suggested he may be assasinated, but that fits with his usual political melodramatic style. Somewhat ironic too when Samak goes on about fear of the authorities assassinating him considering his past links to a massacre.

Would it not be more fair to those who will vote PPP to clear all possible legal obstructions to Samak becoming PM before the poll. IF they (the courts, police, army) have enough on Samak to prosecute why delay- I understand the courts are full- but surely if the person might possibly become the next prime minister of the country, that case could be expedited.

Unless, as so often is the case in Thailand- the potential for prosecution is part of the weaponry to be unleashed on political enemies- and the threat of prosecution offers either a bargaining tool- or a post dated bomb to be triggered when it best serves the powers. (who ever the powers might be).

Also I still don't know where the assasination claim was made (the post link doesn't work for me). Certainly there are more ways of "getting rid" of an opponent than assassinating him- imprisonment being one. But regardless- whether or not Samak sincerely believes that he might be assassinated- it's not like assainations are not part of the political weaponry commonly deployed at election time in this fair land (remember - which election was it- when about seventy canvassers were slaughtered- about 15 years ago or so).

Which is exactly why IF the claims by Samak were plausible, he'd have been on the first AirAsia flight out of the country, as any prudent person would do.

More info:

PPP members in the northern province of Phrae linked the murder of the president of the provincial administration organisation on Monday with aims to undermine the party.

http://etna.mcot.net/query.php?nid=32361

As for the rest of the documents contents... from Radio Singapore International:

For more on this, Melanie Yip spoke with Bangkok-based political commentator, Nattakorn Devakula.

ND: But he (Surayud Chulanont) also said that if you looked at the wordings of the documents carefully, it does not specify that the army or the Council for National Security would be using tactics to go after the People Power Party. So basically, he said that the documents are authentic but he said if you read it carefully, it does not say anything about how the army would be using tactics to ensure that the People Power Party does not come into office. I read the documents. It is kind of ambiguous in a way. It has got the main two or three pages and they submitted kind of an attachment to it declaring the outlines of what to do in the upcoming campaign during the election season. It does not say specifically that it wants to get rid of the People Party Party, it does not indicate that at all.

[John K]

Legal but unfitting for Thaksin to advise PPP

(BangkokPost.com) - It is not against the law that ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra be adviser of People's Power party but it is inappropriate for him to do so, Election Commission secretary-general Sutthipol Thaweechaikarn said Saturday.

Mr Sutthipol said Mr Thaksin is among 111 executives of the now-defunct Thai Rak Thai party who have been banned from politics for five years because of electoral fraud, so he should show his spirit by not supporting any political parties to prevent problems.

However, he said it depends solely on Mr Thaksin whether he should show the spirit by not showing his support for political parties.

More here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=123033

[blaze]

The so called 'secret documents' have adequately demonstrated that the army has no intention of turning democracy loose on the people- or vice verca.

When is Samak releasing these documents he has to the general public so that we may truly decide if they "adequately demonstrate" anything?

Both the Nation and the Post have included, in the last two days, highlights of the documents- for whatever reason, both those organs seem to accept their veracity. Perhaps they pulled them from Thaksin's website.

So we are expected to believe that the Army is going to assassinate Samak and that he chose not to flee the country in mortal fear for his life the very day he found out about it, but instead holds a press conferences in his garden? :D

I wasn't aware that the documents contain a plan to assassinate Samak- or that anyone has made that claim- however, summarizing the document's contents, Samak did say, "It would be pointed out that should the PPP win the election, the corruption charges against the party leader would prevent him becoming the next prime minister..."

It is odd that this claim has not been flat out disputed by those in the government that have seen the document.

]

The fact is if we believe in the law Samak's own statement could well be true. If his appeal goes down he wont be able to lead the country, if his party wins. This may also be why nobody will deny what everyone understands could happen because of a legal case. It is wrong to try to preempt a legal case and in this whatever we think of them the authorities are acting correctly. It may even be that the serial human rights abuser Samak was selected to be the leader of the T mans party because there was a fairly good chance that at some point he would be banned due to an outstanding case that was initiated before he became the proxy leader of PPP. This would certainly fit with the we are victims meme currently in vogue at PPP central. Why would a serious politcal party choose someone to lead it who was only able to run by dint of an appeal and who had already been found guilty by a court?

By the way it was Samak during his statement who suggested he may be assasinated, but that fits with his usual political melodramatic style. Somewhat ironic too when Samak goes on about fear of the authorities assassinating him considering his past links to a massacre.

Would it not be more fair to those who will vote PPP to clear all possible legal obstructions to Samak becoming PM before the poll. IF they (the courts, police, army) have enough on Samak to prosecute why delay- I understand the courts are full- but surely if the person might possibly become the next prime minister of the country, that case could be expedited.

Unless, as so often is the case in Thailand- the potential for prosecution is part of the weaponry to be unleashed on political enemies- and the threat of prosecution offers either a bargaining tool- or a post dated bomb to be triggered when it best serves the powers. (who ever the powers might be).

Also I still don't know where the assasination claim was made (the post link doesn't work for me). Certainly there are more ways of "getting rid" of an opponent than assassinating him- imprisonment being one. But regardless- whether or not Samak sincerely believes that he might be assassinated- it's not like assainations are not part of the political weaponry commonly deployed at election time in this fair land (remember - which election was it- when about seventy canvassers were slaughtered- about 15 years ago or so).

Which is exactly why IF the claims by Samak were plausible, he'd have been on the first AirAsia flight out of the country, as any prudent person would do.

More info:

PPP members in the northern province of Phrae linked the murder of the president of the provincial administration organisation on Monday with aims to undermine the party.

<a href="http://etna.mcot.net/query.php?nid=32361" target="_blank">http://etna.mcot.net/query.php?nid=32361</a>

As for the rest of the documents contents... from Radio Singapore International:

For more on this, Melanie Yip spoke with Bangkok-based political commentator, Nattakorn Devakula.

ND: But he (Surayud Chulanont) also said that if you looked at the wordings of the documents carefully, it does not specify that the army or the Council for National Security would be using tactics to go after the People Power Party. So basically, he said that the documents are authentic but he said if you read it carefully, it does not say anything about how the army would be using tactics to ensure that the People Power Party does not come into office. I read the documents. It is kind of ambiguous in a way. It has got the main two or three pages and they submitted kind of an attachment to it declaring the outlines of what to do in the upcoming campaign during the election season. It does not say specifically that it wants to get rid of the People Party Party, it does not indicate that at all.

ND says the docs are ambiguous? Well they couldn't be much more vague and ambiguous than his statement above- is he not permitted by law to state what is in the docs if he has seen them? I mean, he can tell us the number of pages- and that's it- aside from denying a claim that nobody has made. (that the docs outline a plan to 'get rid' of the PPP).

In the 'key point's' synopsis of the document published in the Post and the Nation, there was no mention of 'getting rid' of the PPP. Only of launching a vigorous propaganda crusade against the it.

I don't know where Samak got his idea that were he to win the election, he would be immediately arrested and thus, disqualified from taking office. A simple denial that such an threat is specifically contained in the document ,by either a journalist who has seen the documents, or a government official, would help clear the air. Or better yet- a word by word reprinting of the document.

Edited October 28, 2007 by blaze

[sriracha john]

Here's more on the assassination front... and a lot more on the papers in general and Samak specifically:

Classified documents might be Samak's undoing

Samak Sundaravej's revelation regarding the so-called classified documents supposedly issued by the Council for National Security was supposed to be a major political slam dunk for him, forcing the military junta to retreat quickly from a plan to stop the People Power Party in its bid to regain power for Thaksin Shinawatra.

It looked this way after the first day of Samak's revelation. It was in fact suspected that he was being above board when he lamented possibly being a victim of political assassination.

The public was shocked, to a certain extent, to learn that classified documents of such significance were leaked through certain channels to the People Power Party, which declared itself to be Thaksin's political nominee party at the time of its inception. The shock was deepened by the fact that it was Samak who made the disclosure.

Samak's rhetoric and tantrums have lowered the public's belief in the authenticity of the documents considerably.

Judging from Samak's track record when it comes to revealing documents in and outside the House of Representatives throughout his political career, a strong possibility exists that the papers were either doctored or fake.

Critics have regarded Samak as a politician who cries wolf, with several libel suits against him to back this claim. He came very close to serving jail time for libel and defamation suits and he is currently appealing another libel suit, which marked him for a two-year jail term.

With his long experience in gutter politics, Samak should have sensed that there was something odd with the documents and that someone might have set him up for more trouble with military authorities and the Election Commission.

In fact, the September 19 military coup was staged to boot out Thaksin and his cronies from power following years of corruption scandals and self-serving activities. Any campaign to uproot the remnants of the deposed leader's regime would not be unusual. Such campaigns are necessary, but the Surayud government did not pursue this mission, much to the dismay of the CNS leaders.

In other countries with a cut-throat political tradition, purges of corrupt politicians are usually bloody and brutal. In Thailand's case, not a single shot was fired and no blood was spilled. Even so, democracy-loving people condemned it without looking at the big picture.

What happened after the initial excitement of Samak's disclosure? The CNS came out with a denial initially. Then Surayud admitted that the papers might have been genuine, for reasons only he knows, with a senior military figure later pointing to the possibility that the documents might have been doctored and adapted to cause harm to the armed forces.

Samak must have realized that such documents, which seemed to give him an obvious upper hand, might eventually turn out to be false. After the uproar, the Election Commission (EC) was curious as to whether the classified documents were authentic, particularly as they related to Samak's claim that he might have been marked for death.

The EC demanded to see the papers and the People Power Party was initially happy to let the EC investigate. After sensing the possibility that the papers might be false, the party delayed a meeting with the EC. They wanted more time to study the papers and discuss its consequences.

For those who understand the mechanisms of entrapment and disinformation, it is not difficult to convert authentic classified documents into doctored or fake ones to circumvent an inconvenient truth, so to speak. Samak's papers, which he thought had given him the upper hand, have put him in a precarious situation.

Samak must have sensed again that he could have been set up. That's why he refused to show up with the documents at the EC's office. The People Power Party assigned a political greenhorn to handle the messenger's task, but decided later to postpone the submission.

If the papers were doctored and Samak's claims were his own exaggerations, he and his party would be in serious trouble. Making false allegations for the benefit of political campaigns could lead to a trial by the Constitution Tribunal. What the verdict would be is anybody's guess, but surely this would not be pleasant for Samak and the People Power Party.

That's why Samak has become quiet after his big show, something seemingly unusual for a man of his character and habits. The political slam dunk might see the outspoken and combative politician, now long past his time, lying flat on the floor to be laughed at by political watchers.

A call for a free and fair election is wishful thinking, especially with the complicated and cumbersome rules set by the EC. With more than 60 parties registered, it is impossible for government officials, the media and others to put all contenders on a level playing field.

Unfair practices began with the inception of the political parties. Those parties with big money are competing with also-rans with negligible campaign funds who simply joined the race to see themselves in contention.

The world of politics is unfair. Neutrality is non-existent. Yet some people still demand to have the impossible.

- Sopon Onkgara, Sidelines, The Nation

[blaze]

Here's more on the assassination front... and a lot more on the papers in general and Samak specifically:

Classified documents might be Samak's undoing

Samak Sundaravej's revelation regarding the so-called classified documents supposedly issued by the Council for National Security was supposed to be a major political slam dunk for him, forcing the military junta to retreat quickly from a plan to stop the People Power Party in its bid to regain power for Thaksin Shinawatra.

It looked this way after the first day of Samak's revelation. It was in fact suspected that he was being above board when he lamented possibly being a victim of political assassination.

The public was shocked, to a certain extent, to learn that classified documents of such significance were leaked through certain channels to the People Power Party, which declared itself to be Thaksin's political nominee party at the time of its inception. The shock was deepened by the fact that it was Samak who made the disclosure.

Samak's rhetoric and tantrums have lowered the public's belief in the authenticity of the documents considerably.

Judging from Samak's track record when it comes to revealing documents in and outside the House of Representatives throughout his political career, a strong possibility exists that the papers were either doctored or fake.

Critics have regarded Samak as a politician who cries wolf, with several libel suits against him to back this claim. He came very close to serving jail time for libel and defamation suits and he is currently appealing another libel suit, which marked him for a two-year jail term.

With his long experience in gutter politics, Samak should have sensed that there was something odd with the documents and that someone might have set him up for more trouble with military authorities and the Election Commission.

In fact, the September 19 military coup was staged to boot out Thaksin and his cronies from power following years of corruption scandals and self-serving activities. Any campaign to uproot the remnants of the deposed leader's regime would not be unusual. Such campaigns are necessary, but the Surayud government did not pursue this mission, much to the dismay of the CNS leaders.

In other countries with a cut-throat political tradition, purges of corrupt politicians are usually bloody and brutal. In Thailand's case, not a single shot was fired and no blood was spilled. Even so, democracy-loving people condemned it without looking at the big picture.

What happened after the initial excitement of Samak's disclosure? The CNS came out with a denial initially. Then Surayud admitted that the papers might have been genuine, for reasons only he knows, with a senior military figure later pointing to the possibility that the documents might have been doctored and adapted to cause harm to the armed forces.

Samak must have realized that such documents, which seemed to give him an obvious upper hand, might eventually turn out to be false. After the uproar, the Election Commission (EC) was curious as to whether the classified documents were authentic, particularly as they related to Samak's claim that he might have been marked for death.

The EC demanded to see the papers and the People Power Party was initially happy to let the EC investigate. After sensing the possibility that the papers might be false, the party delayed a meeting with the EC. They wanted more time to study the papers and discuss its consequences.

For those who understand the mechanisms of entrapment and disinformation, it is not difficult to convert authentic classified documents into doctored or fake ones to circumvent an inconvenient truth, so to speak. Samak's papers, which he thought had given him the upper hand, have put him in a precarious situation.

Samak must have sensed again that he could have been set up. That's why he refused to show up with the documents at the EC's office. The People Power Party assigned a political greenhorn to handle the messenger's task, but decided later to postpone the submission.

If the papers were doctored and Samak's claims were his own exaggerations, he and his party would be in serious trouble. Making false allegations for the benefit of political campaigns could lead to a trial by the Constitution Tribunal. What the verdict would be is anybody's guess, but surely this would not be pleasant for Samak and the People Power Party.

That's why Samak has become quiet after his big show, something seemingly unusual for a man of his character and habits. The political slam dunk might see the outspoken and combative politician, now long past his time, lying flat on the floor to be laughed at by political watchers.

A call for a free and fair election is wishful thinking, especially with the complicated and cumbersome rules set by the EC. With more than 60 parties registered, it is impossible for government officials, the media and others to put all contenders on a level playing field.

Unfair practices began with the inception of the political parties. Those parties with big money are competing with also-rans with negligible campaign funds who simply joined the race to see themselves in contention.

The world of politics is unfair. Neutrality is non-existent. Yet some people still demand to have the impossible.

- Sopon Onkgara, Sidelines, The Nation

Nothing but conjecture.

When will we get to see a translation of the docs.

But that the government is not amenable to a PPP win- should be of no surprise what soever. Nor should it come as a surprise IF we were to find out that soldiers throughout the company had been assigned the role- or voluntarily taking it on- of

'educating' the populace about Democracy (that Democracy means voting for any party except the PPP). The interesting doc- would be one that outlines procedures to ensure that the PPP enjoy the same level of protection as all other parties, and that details just how the army will enthusiastically accomodate a PPP win. Now that doc would raise eyebrows.

OH- and about 'assassination' as used in that story- 'political assasination' can be, like 'character assasination' a figure of speech- meaning only the killing of one's politcal carreer. And given Samak's penchant for hyperbole- I wouldn't be surprised if that is what he is doing. Though- any polititian in Thailand runs the risk of being assasinated in the most meaningful sense of the word.

Edited October 28, 2007 by blaze

[sriracha john]

Here's more on the assassination front... and a lot more on the papers in general and Samak specifically:

Classified documents might be Samak's undoing

Samak must have realized that such documents, which seemed to give him an obvious upper hand, might eventually turn out to be false. After the uproar, the Election Commission (EC) was curious as to whether the classified documents were authentic, particularly as they related to Samak's claim that he might have been marked for death.

The EC demanded to see the papers and the People Power Party was initially happy to let the EC investigate. After sensing the possibility that the papers might be false, the party delayed a meeting with the EC. They wanted more time to study the papers and discuss its consequences.

Samak must have sensed again that he could have been set up. That's why he refused to show up with the documents at the EC's office. The People Power Party assigned a political greenhorn to handle the messenger's task, but decided later to postpone the submission.

Nothing but conjecture.

When will we get to see a translation of the docs.

But that the government is not amenable to a PPP win- should be of no surprise what soever. Nor should it come as a surprise IF we were to find out that soldiers throughout the company had been assigned the role- or voluntarily taking it on- of

'educating' the populace about Democracy (that Democracy means voting for any party except the PPP). The interesting doc- would be one that outlines procedures to ensure that the PPP enjoy the same level of protection as all other parties, and that details just how the army will enthusiastically accomodate a PPP win. Now that doc would raise eyebrows.

OH- and about 'assassination' as used in that story- 'political assasination' can be, like 'character assasination' a figure of speech- meaning only the killing of one's politcal carreer. And given Samak's penchant for hyperbole- I wouldn't be surprised if that is what he is doing. Though- any polititian in Thailand runs the risk of being assasinated in the most meaningful sense of the word.

2nd reference to assassination highlighted so as to not be confused with a figure of speech that the 1st reference can be interpreted as.

Interesting the PPP has STILL NOT turned over the documents to the EC... that alone is highly suspicious of their authenticity.

[blaze]

Here's more on the assassination front... and a lot more on the papers in general and Samak specifically:

Classified documents might be Samak's undoing

Samak must have realized that such documents, which seemed to give him an obvious upper hand, might eventually turn out to be false. After the uproar, the Election Commission (EC) was curious as to whether the classified documents were authentic, particularly as they related to Samak's claim that he might have been marked for death.

The EC demanded to see the papers and the People Power Party was initially happy to let the EC investigate. After sensing the possibility that the papers might be false, the party delayed a meeting with the EC. They wanted more time to study the papers and discuss its consequences.

Samak must have sensed again that he could have been set up. That's why he refused to show up with the documents at the EC's office. The People Power Party assigned a political greenhorn to handle the messenger's task, but decided later to postpone the submission.

Nothing but conjecture.

When will we get to see a translation of the docs.

But that the government is not amenable to a PPP win- should be of no surprise what soever. Nor should it come as a surprise IF we were to find out that soldiers throughout the company had been assigned the role- or voluntarily taking it on- of

'educating' the populace about Democracy (that Democracy means voting for any party except the PPP). The interesting doc- would be one that outlines procedures to ensure that the PPP enjoy the same level of protection as all other parties, and that details just how the army will enthusiastically accomodate a PPP win. Now that doc would raise eyebrows.

OH- and about 'assassination' as used in that story- 'political assasination' can be, like 'character assasination' a figure of speech- meaning only the killing of one's politcal carreer. And given Samak's penchant for hyperbole- I wouldn't be surprised if that is what he is doing. Though- any polititian in Thailand runs the risk of being assasinated in the most meaningful sense of the word.

2nd reference to assassination highlighted so as to not be confused with a figure of speech that the 1st reference can be interpreted as.

Interesting the PPP has STILL NOT turned over the documents to the EC... that alone is highly suspicious of their authenticity.

Again- if Samak made such a claim, and I certainly wouldn't be surprised if he did- can anyone provide me with a link to that conversation. All we have here is a pundit interpreting Samak's words (rightly or perhaps wrongly) as being 'marked for death'. He might well have said that- but I'd like to see a direct quote- especially if he (Samak) claims this specific threat was written into the 'secret document'.

If Samak said, the doc outlines a plan to destroy me politically- and one reporter interprets this to mean- ahh- the doc claims plans to 'get rid' of Samak and another takes that to a higher plane and says, it's a plan to assasinate Samak, then what we have is, (typically) shoddy - no- rotten- journalism.

As I said, Samak may well have claimed that his murder was in the offing (excuse the pun)= but I'd like to see the original statement in its proper context.

Has the PPP turned the documents over to the press? If not, why not? And as far as them not turning the docs over to the EC- well remember the delay in turning over the evidence of judge tampering re the TRT dissolution case. Who knows. But the media should demand to see and then reprint these docs. They have become a political hot potato- if they are as benign as claimed by the reporter above, (and by Sarauyth) then the junta comes across unscathed. And the suggestion that these docs were doctored by the PPP will also be put to rest. Both 'sides' win.

[John K]

This was Friday but perhaps not posted.

PPP hands classified documents to EC

(BangkokPost.com) - Danuporn Punakan of People Power party (PPP) submitted the classified documents that detail Council for National Security's plans to prevent PPP from rising to power to Election Commission (EC) on Friday for probe.

PPP spokesman Kuthep Saikrachang said the party assigned Mr Danuporn to hand the documents at 1pm so the EC can prove whether the documents are authentic.

Mr Kuthep accused Deputy Prime Minister Sonthi Boonyaratkalin, who was CNS chairman at the time, to have ordered the suppression plan.

EC secretary-general Sutthipol Thaweechaikarn vowed to give a fair investigation into the case.

More here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/p...l.php?id=123007

[John K]

If the documents were fake and given to the PPP, it certainly was a well thought out plan. The PPP is not hard to figure out so to bait them knowing their response required some tactical thinking to get the right response. So far the only player I have seen that shows that level of thinking is Sonthi.

It actually is quite brilliant if that turns out to be the case, it reminds me of a police sting operation.

[blaze]

If the documents were fake and given to the PPP, it certainly was a well thought out plan. The PPP is not hard to figure out so to bait them knowing their response required some tactical thinking to get the right response. So far the only player I have seen that shows that level of thinking is Sonthi.

It actually is quite brilliant if that turns out to be the case, it reminds me of a police sting operation.

I don't have a clue what it is you are suggesting- that Sonthi wrote up a document purported to be from Sonthi implicating Sonthi in a campaign to discredit the PPP and then leaked that document to the PPP so that they (the PPP) would accuse Sonthi of a campaign to discredit the PPP? Huh? That may well sound like a sting operation - as conducted by the Keystone Cops.

[blaze]

This was Friday but perhaps not posted.

PPP hands classified documents to EC

(BangkokPost.com) - Danuporn Punakan of People Power party (PPP) submitted the classified documents that detail Council for National Security's plans to prevent PPP from rising to power to Election Commission (EC) on Friday for probe.

PPP spokesman Kuthep Saikrachang said the party assigned Mr Danuporn to hand the documents at 1pm so the EC can prove whether the documents are authentic.

Mr Kuthep accused Deputy Prime Minister Sonthi Boonyaratkalin, who was CNS chairman at the time, to have ordered the suppression plan.

EC secretary-general Sutthipol Thaweechaikarn vowed to give a fair investigation into the case.

More here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/p...l.php?id=123007

A fascinating statement from an EC official:

"If we look into the documents and do not find they contain anything illegal, the matter will end," he said. "If not, we will trace where the documents come from."

But he didn't say what the EC would do if the documents are found to come from exactly where they are purported to come from- the CNS.

In other words, if there is nothing illegal in the documents, then their authenticity is mysteriously confirmed.

If however, something illegal is found in them, then there will be a full investigation into their authenticiy.

But he didn't say what course the EC would take if that investigation showed the docs to be authentic.

[hammered]

This was Friday but perhaps not posted.

PPP hands classified documents to EC

(BangkokPost.com) - Danuporn Punakan of People Power party (PPP) submitted the classified documents that detail Council for National Security's plans to prevent PPP from rising to power to Election Commission (EC) on Friday for probe.

PPP spokesman Kuthep Saikrachang said the party assigned Mr Danuporn to hand the documents at 1pm so the EC can prove whether the documents are authentic.

Mr Kuthep accused Deputy Prime Minister Sonthi Boonyaratkalin, who was CNS chairman at the time, to have ordered the suppression plan.

EC secretary-general Sutthipol Thaweechaikarn vowed to give a fair investigation into the case.

More here: <a href="http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/p...l.php?id=123007" target="_blank">http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/p...l.php?id=123007</a>

A fascinating statement from an EC official:

"If we look into the documents and do not find they contain anything illegal, the matter will end," he said. "If not, we will trace where the documents come from."

But he didn't say what the EC would do if the documents are found to come from exactly where they are purported to come from- the CNS.

In other words, if there is nothing illegal in the documents, then their authenticity is mysteriously confirmed.

If however, something illegal is found in them, then there will be a full investigation into their authenticiy.

But he didn't say what course the EC would take if that investigation showed the docs to be authentic.

It could also be as simple as if there is nothing illegal then the EC does not have the power or need to investigate, which does not confirm the authenticity or other. If there is soemthing illegal then the first step is to find where the docs came from ie confirm the authenticity as claimed or of course otherwise and it would be pointless to speculate on what will happen beyond this. All speculation of course. Having seen countless documets and tapes produced in Thai politcs to bring down someone or other over the years I personally prefer to just see teh case out. They rarely if ever get to the point of being proven.