What's eating my tomatoes?

[djayz]

Despite having sprayed my tomato plants at the beginning of the week (with Neem oil), I found these critters eating away happily the very next day! 

What are they and how can the be deterred - organically that is. I have picked every single one of them off the plants (and damaged leaves too), but that is quite time consuming. Any organic alternatives? 

Oddly enough, they don't seem to have attacked every plant - just the odd one here and there, but I don't want them spreading. 

 

 

[pitufikken]

Google lens is your friend.

Spodoptera eridania.

  It is very fond of young plants. And is widespread in Florida as well, eating tomato leaves. Hope you can get rid of the critters.

[cooked]

You might want to try with diluted wood vinegar, I got rid of caterpillars on my "Maraa kie nuk" (sour melon) applying this.

[drtreelove]

On 12/7/2022 at 6:04 PM, pitufikken said:

Google lens is your friend.

Spodoptera eridania.

  It is very fond of young plants. And is widespread in Florida as well, eating tomato leaves. Hope you can get rid of the critters.

Looks right. Larva of a moth.  Arthropod insects from the order Lepidoptera have 4 stages of complete metamorphosis (that Iearned sometime ago in ancient history and a college entomology class) Which comes first? adult, eggs, larvae (feeding stage), then pupa (cocoon stage). 

 

Chasing an active advanced infestation with neem substances will likely be futile, as you may have discovered. Neem products, like azadirachtin concentrate is best as a preventive. Neem chemistry for pest management is best a repellent, reproductive disruptor, and anti-feedant.  So if you learn to montitor more astutely, and see moths flying around your plants, you can spray aza and they won't be as likely to lay eggs on your plants (eggs that hatch into hungry little worms that feed, grow and defoliate), If your monitoring is a little later in the game, you look for egg cases on the underside of leaves. First and second instar caterpillars are tiny and really hard to see unless you know what you're looking for, but if you find them, that is an excellent stage to use the wood vinegar that Cooked suggested, or if you hate the smell of vinegar like I do, or are not sure of the dosage (vinegar is phytotoxic at higher concentrations), then you can consider insecticidal soap, or B.t. =Bacillus thuringiencis., a biological control.  Later instars are bigger, thougher, and harder to deal with, but your mechanical control (picking them off) is an excellent method for a few small plants like tomatoes. Trees are a different story. 

 

The next level, and the very best pest management approach is total IPM prevention methods, including good soil and water managment. Get on board with SFW (soil-food-web) science and practices, enhance the soil and foliar microbiome that provides natural resistance to pests and diseases. Then you don't need biopesticides at all.  

 

Healthy Plants Are Resistant to Insects and Disease

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNm08atn6tY

 

Why insects do not (and cannot) attack healthy plants | Dr. Thomas Dykstra | Regenerative Ag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnNOvA3diDU

 

How Insect Pests Identify Unhealthy Plants with Dr. Tom Dykstra

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pbFc7JR4qI

[djayz]

7 hours ago, drtreelove said:

If your monitoring is a little later in the game,

That's exactly what happened. Had to return to BKK for a few days and that's when they got a foothold. Been an uphill battle since to get them under control. 

Thanks again for the helpful info. 

[drtreelove]

I'm curious. What product are you calling 'neem oil'.  Please post or PM a photo of the container label. 

 

There are various product formulations that are derived from 'neem seed oil extract', and some from other parts of the neem tree.  There are two common products in the US, where much of my experience is based.  The most common is 70% neem oil (Clarified Hydrophobic Extract of Neem Oil), which has insecticide, miticide and fungicide properties, and is extremely popular and widely sold in garden centers. And then the aza products that are more potent as insect and mite repellents,  but not fungicidal. Aza products are much more expensive. Neem oil is more affordable and very useful for preventive managment or for early intervention, with an astute monitoring program that does not allow advanced infestations to occur. 

 

There is a lot of misunderstanding and wrong expectations around the use of neem products, as well as other organic program compatible pest and disease management substances. I hear a lot of people say they don't work, but its usually because they really don't understand and know how to use them. They think its a direct substitute for chemical insecticides.  But in fact with "organic" biopesticides, there needs to be a completely different approach and expectations than with chemical pesticides. "Prevention" and "suppression"  are the key terms, and biopesticides are only adjuvants within a comprehensive preventive management program, involving growing conditions, compatible plantings, soil and water management. Pest "eradication" is in the realm of the "exterminators", and that takes some seriously harsh chemistry, with consequences.  It's kind of like - are you going to be careless and get Covid, and then try to cure it, or are you going to learn and be smart with a preventive approach and not get it at all in the first place. 

 

IPM ('integrated pest management', or I like the term 'intelligent plant management') takes more study and understanding of nature and all the factors of why pests are attracted to certain plants at certain times and how to discourage and minimize damaging infestations.  Eradication is the less intelligent and less environmentally responsible, reactive approach of waiting for an active infestation and then trying to identify the pest and how to kill it. That advanced infestation stage is when neem doesn't work very well and you have to go for the big guns.  

Neem Based Insecticides.pdf

[djayz]

On 12/11/2022 at 7:27 AM, drtreelove said:

Please post or PM a photo of the container label. 

The photos / file is corrupt. Will try again later. 

Neem oil.html

[djayz]

On 12/11/2022 at 7:27 AM, drtreelove said:

I'm curious. What product are you calling 'neem oil'.  Please post or PM a photo of the container label. 

This here. 

[drtreelove]

I believe that the product pictured is not neem oil or a neem seed extract product at all, but rather a surfactant (spreader-sticker) to be used as an adjuvant with their other neem products. ("leaf catcher" may be a poor translation for a "sticker" surfactant that is standard practice for use with some pesticide products.) Some of the reviews posted confirm that this is not a bio-pesticide itself. 

 

I'm not sure why a 'sticker' would be needed with a true neem oil product, because usually an oil like this has sticker properties itself. Unless what I suspect is that their "neem oil" is not really an oil, but an EC (emulsifiable concentrate) or a water soluble Aza concentrate like the product called 'Soluneem' in India, 'Azasol' in the US ( popular with canna growers for budworm and mite control, no residual oil residue on consumable flowers). 

Its really difficult to sort through product descriptions and labels and active ingredients for products in Thailand. 

"Neem oil", like the term 'organic' means different things to different people and is widely misunderstood and misused. There is a wide variety of active ingredients and the percentages of those a.i.'s contained in the formulations available. 

In general, what I've seen in Thailand is primarily Azadirachtin concentrates with very low % a.i. compared with aza concentrates in the US. Note the repeat application interval of 5 days. A higher % a.i. would be more like 10 to 14 days residual effectiveness. 

 

I found this description of the product on Lazada:

Product details of Neem Power Bio-Life (Leaf Catcher) Size 1,000 cc.

• td {border: 1.0px solid #cccccc;}br {mso-data-placement: same-cell;}td {border: 1.0px solid #cccccc;}br {mso-data-placement: same-cell;}" bi Olife, a leaf binder, enhances the performance of neem oil."

Bio-Life (leaf binder) is a solution to enhance the performance of neem oil.

how to use

Use Bio-Life as a solution, mix with Bionem (neem oil) at the rate of 10 cc. of Bionem (neem oil) mixed with 20 cc. of Bio-Life (leaf binder) stir well and mix with 20 liters of water. be sprayed over the plant leaves in the beginning of the leaves In the initial stage, spray 5 days apart per time, 2-3 times in a row.

 

[djayz]

7 hours ago, drtreelove said:

I believe that the product pictured is not neem oil or a neem seed extract product at all, but rather a surfactant (spreader-sticker) to be used as an adjuvant with their other neem products. ("leaf catcher" may be a poor translation for a "sticker" surfactant that is standard practice for use with some pesticide products.) Some of the reviews posted confirm that this is not a bio-pesticide itself. 

 

I'm not sure why a 'sticker' would be needed with a true neem oil product, because usually an oil like this has sticker properties itself. Unless what I suspect is that their "neem oil" is not really an oil, but an EC (emulsifiable concentrate) or a water soluble Aza concentrate like the product called 'Soluneem' in India, 'Azasol' in the US ( popular with canna growers for budworm and mite control, no residual oil residue on consumable flowers). 

Its really difficult to sort through product descriptions and labels and active ingredients for products in Thailand. 

"Neem oil", like the term 'organic' means different things to different people and is widely misunderstood and misused. There is a wide variety of active ingredients and the percentages of those a.i.'s contained in the formulations available. 

In general, what I've seen in Thailand is primarily Azadirachtin concentrates with very low % a.i. compared with aza concentrates in the US. Note the repeat application interval of 5 days. A higher % a.i. would be more like 10 to 14 days residual effectiveness. 

 

I found this description of the product on Lazada:

Product details of Neem Power Bio-Life (Leaf Catcher) Size 1,000 cc.

• td {border: 1.0px solid #cccccc;}br {mso-data-placement: same-cell;}td {border: 1.0px solid #cccccc;}br {mso-data-placement: same-cell;}" bi Olife, a leaf binder, enhances the performance of neem oil."

Bio-Life (leaf binder) is a solution to enhance the performance of neem oil.

how to use

Use Bio-Life as a solution, mix with Bionem (neem oil) at the rate of 10 cc. of Bionem (neem oil) mixed with 20 cc. of Bio-Life (leaf binder) stir well and mix with 20 liters of water. be sprayed over the plant leaves in the beginning of the leaves In the initial stage, spray 5 days apart per time, 2-3 times in a row.

 

That explains the relatively poor performance of this product... 

Thank you. 

[drtreelove]

On 12/21/2022 at 3:37 PM, djayz said:

That explains the relatively poor performance of this product... 

Thank you. 

Attached label is for a true Azadirachtin concentrate from Thai Neem Co. But its like 1000 baht for one liter. And note the 0.1% a.i. (yes that's zero point one percent) Whereas Neemix that I use in the US is 4.5% aza 

Neemix 4.5 - Insect Growth Regulators - Certis Biologicals

 

and AzaSol is 6% 

AzaSol – Water Soluble Bio-Insecticide from Neem

 

Organic-program-compatible bio-pesticides, biological controls and botanicals, to be effective, must be used in the context of an IPM comprehensive preventive management program, including soil fertility and water management, monitoring and early intervention. And organic growers need to recognize that botanicals don't have residual effectiveness like many of the synthetic chemicals do, repeat applications are required. 

 

Better yet is to get on board with Soil Food Web awareness, soil fertility / biology enhancement, which is where natural resistance to pests and diseases can be achieved.  

[drtreelove]

Another aspect of this, for those who are interested, is that truth in advertising and full disclosure of ingredients is not a strong point in Thai labeling and marketing of products.  While searching for the Bio Live label and ingredients, I  came across products labeled as 'neem oil' that had fine print with a.i.'s of abamectin, cypermethrin and other synthetic chemical ingredients. 

 

So of course the terms 'organic' and 'neem oil' commands a knee jerk attraction for the well intended organic grower (and a higher price), and the impressive immediate knock down of an advanced pest infestation will get repeat buyers and believers. 

 

But if you are commited to an organic program, let the buyer beware, and read the fine print, if they even bother to disclose the real chemistry in the product.