What is an agnostic in 12-step recovery?

[Andy F]

2 hours ago, likerdup1 said:

 

How is it that you think I'm scaring away newcomers? Have you heard me share in a meeting? Have you witnessed me sponsoring newcomers? (which I do frequently with success). How many active sponsees do you have?

 

I follow the Big Book instructions about how to help newcomers in the chapter "Working with Others". Do you know what it says? It expressly says to NOT talk of God or press spirituality at all in the first meetings with new people. It also says to talk primarily about drinking experience and experience with alcoholism first.

 

Again with criticizing my "understanding" of the literature. My understanding of the literature lines up with the many literature enthusiasts I study it with. The Primary Purpose groups. The Connect the Dots group. The Reconciled Group. The list goes on. There are a growing number of people in AA latching onto the text book for our society called the Big Book. The first 164 pages of the Big Book (the program portion) has not been changed since it's first edition in 1939.

 

Frankly I highly doubt you have studied the literature thoroughly. For instance this business about the "half measures" only applying to the first step. This is nowhere in the literature.

 

All the literature enthusiasts I know have been humble enough to become teachable and have someone show them and help them understand the literature. I am a self taught computer programmer and even I needed to be shown.

 

Come back and tell me when you've actually taken a day or two to go over the program with Big Book or 12 step program teachers such as Joe and Charlie or Bob D or Scott L. Then we can have an intelligent chat about the AA program of recovery.

 

Let me point out. It appears you or a few other "Agnostic AA members" have invented new terminology. Specifically the terms you throw around like "Non God centered spiritual awakening"  "God Awakening"  This is one individual (or perhaps these so called AA secular groups) making up terms and twisting the English language to support their views.

 

"God awakening" Where is that term ever seen in any of the AA literature?

 

Where is the terminology "Non God-centered spiritual awakening" .. I'll bet this stuff was developed by these so called "secular AA" groups that come and go.

 

Since we are using the English language lets just start off with the definition of the most important word in the AA program.

 

SPRITUAL:

1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not material; supernatural.
2. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
3. Not concerned with material or worldly things.

 

So you see BY DEFINITION spirituality has to do with things that are not worldly. For instance Human beings are of this world. 

 

It's read at every meeting.

B) The probably no HUMAN power could have relieved our alcoholism.

 

By the way one pamphlet about the God word does not change the AA way of recovering from alcoholism. To change the AA way to recover they'd need to rewrite the first 164 pages of The Big Book and Twelve and Twelve.

 

 

 

"All fundamentalism is born out of fear" - Lord Soper. A British Methodist minister and peer of the House of Lords.

 

What are you so afraid of that you cling so passionately to your fundamentalist beliefs

 

You can't be that secure in your faith in God if you need to defend it so strongly. You're arrogant and dishonest enough to suggest that I can't be a "real alcoholic" if I haven't worked the twelve steps as per your rigid prescription.

 

You don't know me and you weren't there when I was a homeless drunk on the streets of London. It's doesn't get anymore dishonest then that! If I wasn't a real alcoholic, I wouldn't have kept relapsing for my first 13 years in AA.

 

For all I know, you were a white collar alcoholic with a good career? My career was alcoholism from when I was a young teenager.

 

I have now been sober in AA for twenty five years. At the moment I am sponsoring 4 people through the first 164 pages of the Big Book. Some of my sponsees believe in God and that's fine. I don't interfere with their belief system.

 

My higher power is now universal  consciousness. It is still also still the AA group and the suggestions of an agnostic-friendly sponsor.

 

Your difficulty with the expression "non God centered spiritual awakening" is also dishonest. How many spiritually awakened Buddhists are there in AA? As Buddhists, they don't believe in God. Does that make them any less spiritual?

 

When I encounter fundamentalists in AA, I know that they hide behind fundamentalism because they are not secure in their own belief system.

 

According to tradition 3, we both have a perfect right to be in AA. Lets us then just agree to disagree and "Live and let live"

 

Trust me Likerdup1, I'm a real alcoholic. I now have a life beyond my wildest dreams as an agnostic member of AA.

 

I love Bob D and Joe and Charlie but they never struck me as fanatic members of the AA God squad.

 

There are more and more secular groups forming in AA. These secular members may not have survived in AA without secular groups. Many of us are now old timers and definitely "real alcoholics." Most of us are enjoying a happy and contented sobriety.

 

My first sponsor told me that the third step decision is simply a decision to go on with the rest of the steps. In step 12 we are not promised a God awakening but a spiritual awakening.

 

In my mind, any alcoholic that tries to practise "Love and service" (Dr. Bob) in AA and is actively trying to overcome "Selfishness and self-centeredness" has, in my mind, had a spiritual awakening. This is true whether he believes in God or not.

 

Ever read "The dilemma of no faith" by Bill W? 

 

Have a great 24 brother!

 

PS. By the way, I don't agree with everything in the Big Book. I suppose that must mean I'm not a "real" alcoholic? ????

 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Andy F

[likerdup1]

Of course. Let's Live and Let Live. Ultimately it's who we help along the way that really matters. I have no reason to not believe you.

 

I do have to point out that I did not stoop to name calling in our discussion. Calling me  "fundamentalist" is your opinion. Many people in AA who have been around awhile and managed to stay sober without doing all the steps, without really studying the literature or actually doing 12 step as it's intended like to label people like me.

 

1) Big Book Thumpers

2) Step Nazi's

3) Fundamentalists.

 

I'm not a "fundamentalist".

 

I'm simply a guy who has taken the time to really study AA literature, specifically the literature which contains the program - and follow the program within as designed. No alteration, embellishment needed. Simply got humble and followed the instructions.

 

I have been open minded enough to admit that after 7 year of floundering in meetings, meetings attended my well meaning but uninformed AA's, I needed more help and finally found a sponsor who new what he was talking about. Instead of guys who just wanted to hand me Buddhism books or take me to coffee and talk. Or do the steps the way there sponsors sponsors sponsor did it.

 

My Big Book sponsor took me through the Big Book line by line and I found out something very humbling and down right embarrassing. I had been going to meetings for 7 years and had little idea of the program. I didn't know what AA says alcoholism is. ( Physical Allergy coupled with a Mental Obsession) and how that manifests in an Alcoholic and I had very little idea of how to sponsor anyone.

 

Once I got a qualified Big Book sponsor who new the text and took time to take me through it I finally was on my way to being a recovered alcoholic and really have a spiritual awakening which amounted to a God Consciousness. My  current "experience" of God is it is a benevolent intelligent force in the Universe which when I try to parallel my will to it's gives me not only the miracle of recovery from alcoholism but a way to live sober. I try on a daily basis to parallel my will with it's. Fundamentally the AA way it's to be selfless.

 

Frankly I have not been feeling good about making these posts. it's been a waste of time. Trying to make my point falls on def ears. Not many people are really willing to go all in and be open minded enough to "give themselves completely to the 12 step program". It's only in meetings where I find alcoholics desperate for recovery that I find the kind of open mindedness and willingness that the process requires.

 

Studying the literature and following the instructions as originally designed is the best thing I never did for myself.

 

I humbled myself to the 12 step program. Layed aside my God prejudice, layed aside my atheist and agnostic ideals and became open to experience the Power of a Higher Power.

 

 I'm done here.

Edited March 10, 2023 by likerdup1

[ding]

On 3/10/2023 at 2:25 AM, likerdup1 said:

Glad you have your 38 years. I'll be 30 in a few days. What is it that you do to have not drank in a long time?

 

 

 

I go to lots of meetings, help new people, be of service and work the steps out of the big book and 12x12.

I have a desire to stop drinking still, so I do it.

????

 

[mikebike]

Alcohol was not my issue (cocaine). What I find fascinating about this thread is not one poster has acknowledged that recovery from addiction, by whatever method, is often deeply personal and rarely directly transferable. Even following a somewhat ridge program like AA, everyone's path to recovery is unique to them. 

Edited March 12, 2023 by mikebike