Sleep problems

[nigelforbes]

On 4/7/2023 at 12:21 PM, Sheryl said:

Quick dissolve sublingual melatonin works well for me with middle of the night/too early morning  waking.  I keep it by the bedside. Takes about 10-15 minutes and I'm back asleep. Need to have at least 3 hours left to sleep before taking though, or else I will have trouble getting up.

 

I use Natrol brand 5 mg, you van get it on Lazada

 

 

 

Is this safe for over age 65 years to use for extended periods?

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, nigelforbes said:

Is this safe for over age 65 years to use for extended periods?

Yes as far as anyone knows.

 

It is a natural substance in the human body.

 

Some countries (including US) categorize it as a supplement rather than a drug.

[nigelforbes]

4 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Yes as far as anyone knows.

 

It is a natural substance in the human body.

 

Some countries (including US) categorize it as a supplement rather than a drug.

Thanks. The reason I asked is because I am taking Circadin 2mg  which is prolonged release melatonin and the guidance is to use for short period only. 

 

https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/product/2809/pil

[ozimoron]

Cherries and tart cherry juice contain melatonin. Insanely expensive in Thailand though.

[Irrumator]

On 4/7/2023 at 12:37 PM, Adumbration said:

I had a very similar problem to you.  But I found a cure using 100% pure coconut massage oil that you can buy in most supermarkets in Thailand.  It most effective when rubbed on you by a girl aged between 18 to 22.

How about an almost 54 year old wife, a 6 years professionally trained masseuse who thinks bending my arms up my back and my legs across each other and digging her elbows in?  Do you think that might work?  ????

[Irrumator]

On 4/7/2023 at 1:18 PM, Sheryl said:

https://www.lazada.co.th/natrol/?spm=a2o4m.searchlist.funnel_filter.4.3fa92184L8xCdF&q=melatonin&_keyori=ss&from=input&catalog_redirect_tag=true

 

My wife's family grow kratom on their farm.  I've tried the odd half leaf but felt nothing.

Any idea of dosage?

[Irrumator]

On 4/7/2023 at 2:36 PM, indyo said:

I solved a similar issue for my 80 years old father with cbd oil(10%), 20mg cbd before bed time worked great. 

I can get CBD oil through my wife's biochemist sister. Might give it a shot.  Thanks

[Irrumator]

On 4/7/2023 at 6:19 PM, spidermike007 said:

4 MG. of Rivotril is alot. You might want to try CBD oil. High potency. I hear it works great, and it is now easy to find here. 

I can get  CBD oil through my biochemist sister in  law.  Might well try it.  Any idea of dosage?

[Irrumator]

On 4/8/2023 at 4:02 AM, mstevens said:

Intermittent fasting and not eating for a few hours before bed is great advice. For me, personally, I have found exercising before bed actually keeps me away although I am sure for others like yourself, it works well. My understanding is that research shows exercise in the morning is actually best for most people to help with sleep.

I have been doing keto and intermittent fasting for 6 years, (lost 55 kgs and kept it off)   and never eat after 5.30 pm, so I doubt it's that.  

[Irrumator]

21 hours ago, robblok said:

That might be the problem when i did keto i my sleeping problems got worse. 

Been doing keto for almost 6 years and this problem only started about 4 - 6 weeks ago.  

[connda]

On 4/7/2023 at 1:21 PM, Sheryl said:

These are all benzos and tolerance (and addiction) develops with constant use. Continually raising the dose just gets you in deeper trouble.

 

You have already developed tolerance (and would suffer withdrawal effects if you tried to stop on your own - do so under medical supervision). Which is why it no longer works.

 

For anyone else taking or thinking of taking these drugs a good rule of thumb is:  Not more than 2-3 times a week and never 2 nights in a row

 

 

 

 

And if you're hooked and want to try to withdraw on your own using a taper, the Ashton Manual is your source and tapering schedules.  Work with a doctor who can supply you with what you will need (which is eventually diazepam with has a long half-life).
Like Sheryl, I don't recommend the use of benzos unless you can control your use and use it prudently.

[connda]

On 4/7/2023 at 3:17 PM, homeseeker said:

Thank you, Sheryl. Worth a try.

My doctor gave me Lorazepam but melatonin more natural....right?

 

Lorazepam is a benzodiazepine (drug that is addictive if you don't control your usage). 
Melatonin is a natural hormone found in the body that promotes sleep.

The problem with Lorazepam is that it has a relatively short half-life (6 to 8 hours).  If you use it continually you may start to find that you suddenly feel anxious for no reason in the middle of the day, especially if you start developing a tolerance for Lorazepam (which eventually will happen over time with continual use) and you have to bump the dose up to get to sleep.  When you start using Lorazepam in the middle of the day to counter the anxiety - you're hooked.  If you try to stop Cold Turkey you'll have very unpleasant symptoms of withdrawal up to and including seizures if you are taking heavy dosages to put you to sleep and to counter-act anxiety during the day.
At that point you need to taper off the drug and stop using it entirely.
In my own opinion benzodiazepines like Diazepam which have a long half-life are a better choice for sleep. But like Sheryl said and I agree with - don't use it every night.  I might use Diazepam once a week or every two weeks (or not at all during the month).  I've got a lot of experience with benzos (legally prescribed) and I know the nature of this class of drugs and use them sparingly.
With that said, I've seen people become addicted with legal prescriptions given to them by a GP. Why? Because most doctors who prescribe them DON'T understand the nature of this class of drugs personally and they over-prescribe.  Like prescribing a benzo with a very short half-life for sleep.  Like I mentioned, after continual use, when it wears off in the middle of the day you'll eventually experience bouts of anxiousness. The day you use the same drug to counter the anxiousness - you have a problem.  I'd say the majority of GPs who prescribe benzos don't have a clue regarding their long-term effect.  And best of luck finding a GP who can help you taper.  You'll either need to go into a drug program or if you have the will-power you use the Ashton Manual to taper off - and then quit permanently because benzo are not for you.  Read and heed.  Using benzos is an exercise in Tickling The Dragon.  One wrong choice and you get burnt.

Edited April 9, 2023 by connda

[connda]

43 minutes ago, connda said:

And if you're hooked and want to try to withdraw on your own using a taper, the Ashton Manual is your source and tapering schedules.  Work with a doctor who can supply you with what you will need (which is eventually diazepam with has a long half-life).
Like Sheryl, I don't recommend the use of benzos unless you can control your use and use it prudently.

Link to the Ashton Manual:
https://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/
 

[spidermike007]

11 hours ago, Irrumator said:

I can get  CBD oil through my biochemist sister in  law.  Might well try it.  Any idea of dosage?

You have to get the strongest possible. I think that is High Potency CBD Oil (3,000-12,000MG). That is per bottle. Start off with a smaller amount per night. Perhaps 50mg. See how that works. 

[Irrumator]

2 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

You have to get the strongest possible. I think that is High Potency CBD Oil (3,000-12,000MG). That is per bottle. Start off with a smaller amount per night. Perhaps 50mg. See how that works. 

Great, I'll get the wife to call the sister later tonight

[Jingthing]

15 hours ago, Irrumator said:

I can get  CBD oil through my biochemist sister in  law.  Might well try it.  Any idea of dosage?

You want "full spectrum" CBD which yes does have a small amount of THC. Not enough to get you high, but again, you do want full spectrum.

Also if you do it habitually you'll develop a tolerance and will require increased dosages.

[Lucky Bones]

On 4/7/2023 at 2:47 PM, bkk6060 said:

If a person does not have a sex partner, masturbation before bed time seems to work well to help with sleep.

My wife says "Don't Touch Me".

Sleep arrives easy after that.

Mia Noi is good mid afternoon.????????

 

[connda]

On 4/8/2023 at 7:42 AM, Irrumator said:

I've never taken a non prescription drug in my life, such as cannabis and don't intend to start now at my age.

You can go to a doctor in Thailand and have cannabis prescribed. 

Edited April 9, 2023 by connda

[3NUMBAS]

very common as everyone is staring at screen all day 

[Sheryl]

Bickering/flaming posts have been removed,

[Irrumator]

@Sheryl, one thing Id like to ask about as you appear to be medically qualified.

I saw the shrink at Sritanya as a followup to my sleep problems and not only did she suggest I take 4 mgs of clonazepam (I thought a lot) but she also prescribed 'Mealin 30 (mianserin Hcl 30 mgs).  She explained it was a TCA but with the side effect of making people very drowsy so she was prescribing it 'off-book' to see if it would help.

 

In a few words, it didn't.  I still woke at 3 am or so but felt terrible.  I tried it for about 10 days but the side effects were really bad.  I was like a zombie until 11 am or 12 noon, couldn't think straight,. was irritable and tetchy.   When I got up I stumbled from roof to room, having to hold on to handrails and door jambs.

My wife says I wasn't the same person she's know for 15 years and I felt it. I stopped after day 10 even though I know I am supposed to let it run for 2 to 3 4 weeks but I just knew I wasn't right.

 

My gross motor control was all over the place, I was stumbling, dropping things or missed when trying to pick them up.

My fine motor control was the same - couldn't tie shoelaces properly, handwriting was like a  year olds, couldn't really grasp a pen etc. 

 

Any  thoughts/comments/ etc?  It was nasty stuff and I couldn't see me taking it for a month.  I'd rather stay awake.  

 

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Irrumator

[jvs]

On 4/8/2023 at 5:32 PM, Sheryl said:

Yes as far as anyone knows.

 

It is a natural substance in the human body.

 

Some countries (including US) categorize it as a supplement rather than a drug.

Sheryl,what do you think about using Cannabis?

It helps me a lot to sleep and it is legal now so worth a try before

using chemical sleeping aids?

I use once or twice a week and i do not have the idea i am getting depended on it,been using now for four years or so.

[Sheryl]

56 minutes ago, jvs said:

Sheryl,what do you think about using Cannabis?

It helps me a lot to sleep and it is legal now so worth a try before

using chemical sleeping aids?

I use once or twice a week and i do not have the idea i am getting depended on it,been using now for four years or so.

Cannabis is also a chemical.

 

Some people say it works. For others, it does not.

 

Using only once or twice a week is not going to cause dependence

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, Irrumator said:

@Sheryl, one thing Id like to ask about as you appear to be medically qualified.

I saw the shrink at Sritanya as a followup to my sleep problems and not only did she suggest I take 4 mgs of clonazepam (I thought a lot) but she also prescribed 'Mealin 30 (mianserin Hcl 30 mgs).  She explained it was a TCA but with the side effect of making people very drowsy so she was prescribing it 'off-book' to see if it would help.

 

In a few words, it didn't.  I still woke at 3 am or so but felt terrible.  I tried it for about 10 days but the side effects were really bad.  I was like a zombie until 11 am or 12 noon, couldn't think straight,. was irritable and tetchy.   When I got up I stumbled from roof to room, having to hold on to handrails and door jambs.

My wife says I wasn't the same person she's know for 15 years and I felt it. I stopped after day 10 even though I know I am supposed to let it run for 2 to 3 4 weeks but I just knew I wasn't right.

 

My gross motor control was all over the place, I was stumbling, dropping things or missed when trying to pick them up.

My fine motor control was the same - couldn't tie shoelaces properly, handwriting was like a  year olds, couldn't really grasp a pen etc. 

 

Any  thoughts/comments/ etc?  It was nasty stuff and I couldn't see me taking it for a month.  I'd rather stay awake.  

 

 

 

 

Obviously, listen to your body (and mind) and do nto take this.

 

I occasionally have run across Thai doctors giving serious psych meds as off label approach to insomnia. Usually not a good idea.

[Irrumator]

13 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Obviously, listen to your body (and mind) and do nto take this.

 

I occasionally have run across Thai doctors giving serious psych meds as off label approach to insomnia. Usually not a good idea.

Yes my thoughts exactly.  I could tell within 2-3 days it wasn't helping.  

[Irrumator]

What I have decided to do is to just go with it, because trying to fight the early waking just makes it worse.  

If I wake at say 2 or 3 am, I just get up, make a pint mug or 3 of strong tea and get on the PC.  I stay  on until I get tired, which is not often.  I can get so much done!   Catching up on emails and social media, a lot of writing and watching Netflix.

I try to get back to bed after 9 and have a nap or wait until the early afternoon..

Seem to be working out OK so far and I've cut out all pre-bed alcohol too.  

 

[BigStar]

8 hours ago, Irrumator said:

What I have decided to do is to just go with it, because trying to fight the early waking just makes it worse.  

You mean, getting off the benzos?

 

8 hours ago, Irrumator said:

If I wake at say 2 or 3 am, I just get up, make a pint mug or 3 of strong tea and get on the PC.  I stay  on until I get tired, which is not often.

Strong tea = caffeine. How about chamomile tea?

 

I've tried @Sheryl's suggestion about having a fast-acting melatonin if I wake up early. That seems to work.