Accelerating melt of ice sheets now 'unmistakable'

[placeholder]

27 minutes ago, Sametboy2019 said:

Milutin Milanković theory.

It happens with or without us here!

 

There is little doubt that the Milankovic cycles account for much if not most of the ice age temperature fluctuations. However, nothing in the record of these cycles has been found to match the abruptness and rapidity of the current situation. In addition, theories ascribing the current sharp rise in temperature to Malenkovic cycles or solar cycles fail to account for the fact that while the lower atmosphere, the troposphere, is heating rapidly, the stratosphere is actually cooling. If the Malenkovic cycles or solar cycles were responsible for global warming, then the stratosphere should be warming too.

But, in fact ,the rise in CO2 and other greenhouse in the lower atmosphere is delaying infrared radiation from reaching the stratosphere. This is why the stratosphere is getting cooler while the troposphere gets warmer.

[nauseus]

48 minutes ago, placeholder said:

There is little doubt that the Milankovic cycles account for much if not most of the ice age temperature fluctuations. However, nothing in the record of these cycles has been found to match the abruptness and rapidity of the current situation. In addition, theories ascribing the current sharp rise in temperature to Malenkovic cycles or solar cycles fail to account for the fact that while the lower atmosphere, the troposphere, is heating rapidly, the stratosphere is actually cooling. If the Malenkovic cycles or solar cycles were responsible for global warming, then the stratosphere should be warming too.

But, in fact ,the rise in CO2 and other greenhouse in the lower atmosphere is delaying infrared radiation from reaching the stratosphere. This is why the stratosphere is getting cooler while the troposphere gets warmer.

Yes. Milankovitch cycles are believed to be at least party affect climate w.r.t. long term (e.g. full blown ice age) fluctuations.

 

However, more recently similar rates of change of the temperature from 1850-present sis occur during the The Little Ice Age, between about 1300 - 1850. In this case temperatures fell, but at a similar rate as they are rising today. Weak sunspot activity (Maunder Minimum) corresponded to the lowest temperatures about 1750.

 

Coincident with the Maunder Minimum, it is likely that the North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO), controlled by the Azores High and  Iceland Low pressure systems had have a significant regional impact. As the name suggests, this anomaly features variations, with one of these variations occurring when both of the pressure systems weaken enough to allow cold air to reach Northern Europe more easily, coincident with this Negative NAO Index. This variation can reduce temperatures by an estimated 2 deg C.

 

Now, the Little Ice Age temperatures dropped only slightly but the level and rate of change of these can be compared with those rising temperatures causing alarm today. Changes in climate also featured to a similar degree. 

 

I'd like to see the return of another Little Ice Age, just to see what would dictate climate and temperature. I think that the focus on GHG's, especially CO, as the cause of all our climate woes should be opened out. It would be really interesting to be able to compare the data if so much forest hadn't been trashed over the last 200 years.

 

https://www.eh-resources.org/little-ice-age/

 

https://www.swpc.noaa.gov/products/solar-cycle-progression

 

https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/access/monitoring/nao/

 

 

[ozimoron]

15 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I did the single best thing I could have done as an individual to save the human race from the consequences of overpopulation, and had no children.

I weep for the children of parents that believe in man made climate change and do nothing to change it except demonstrate that other people have to "do something" ( without ever saying what they should do ), and carry on with their overseas holidays by air and suchlike.

Most people on the planet aren't in a position toi do much if anything individually. It requires a collective effort, not individual action as you keep harping on about. You seem to disdain the poor who can't afford to do anything about it. Many here criticise activists because they don't take sailboats when they travel. That's really a puerile attitude. Them, not you but maybe you could do with some introspection on the human condition instead of just waffling on about how you have solar power.

Edited April 22, 2023 by ozimoron

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Yes. Milankovitch cycles are believed to be at least party affect climate w.r.t. long term (e.g. full blown ice age) fluctuations.

 

However, more recently similar rates of change of the temperature from 1850-present sis occur during the The Little Ice Age, between about 1300 - 1850. In this case temperatures fell, but at a similar rate as they are rising today. Weak sunspot activity (Maunder Minimum) corresponded to the lowest temperatures about 1750.

 

Coincident with the Maunder Minimum, it is likely that the North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO), controlled by the Azores High and  Iceland Low pressure systems had have a significant regional impact. As the name suggests, this anomaly features variations, with one of these variations occurring when both of the pressure systems weaken enough to allow cold air to reach Northern Europe more easily, coincident with this Negative NAO Index. This variation can reduce temperatures by an estimated 2 deg C.

 

Now, the Little Ice Age temperatures dropped only slightly but the level and rate of change of these can be compared with those rising temperatures causing alarm today. Changes in climate also featured to a similar degree. 

 

I'd like to see the return of another Little Ice Age, just to see what would dictate climate and temperature. I think that the focus on GHG's, especially CO, as the cause of all our climate woes should be opened out. It would be really interesting to be able to compare the data if so much forest hadn't been trashed over the last 200 years.

 

https://www.eh-resources.org/little-ice-age/

 

https://www.swpc.noaa.gov/products/solar-cycle-progression

 

https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/access/monitoring/nao/

 

 

However, more recently similar rates of change of the temperature from 1850-present sis occur during the The Little Ice Age, between about 1300 - 1850. In this case temperatures fell, but at a similar rate as they are rising today. Weak sunspot activity (Maunder Minimum) corresponded to the lowest temperatures about 1750.

 

You need to check on the paragraph above because the actual temperature rises do not correspond the the claims:

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_temperature_record

 

Here's an additional chart that the current temp rise is nothing to do with the sun:

 

 

https://climate.nasa.gov/faq/14/is-the-sun-causing-global-warming/

Edited April 22, 2023 by Bkk Brian

[ozimoron]

14 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

You need to check on the paragraph above because the actual temperature rises do not correspond the the claims:

 

Here's an additional chart that the current temp rise is nothing to do with the sun:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the people who are mostly likely to believe that sunspots affect the Earth's climate probably also believe the Earth is flat. Risky I know.

[nauseus]

14 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

However, more recently similar rates of change of the temperature from 1850-present sis occur during the The Little Ice Age, between about 1300 - 1850. In this case temperatures fell, but at a similar rate as they are rising today. Weak sunspot activity (Maunder Minimum) corresponded to the lowest temperatures about 1750.

 

You need to check on the paragraph above because the actual temperature rises do not correspond the the claims:

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_temperature_record

 

Here's an additional chart that the current temp rise is nothing to do with the sun:

 

 

https://climate.nasa.gov/faq/14/is-the-sun-causing-global-warming/

 

You need to refer to the links I supplied.

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the people who are mostly likely to believe that sunspots affect the Earth's climate probably also believe the Earth is flat. Risky I know.

When the bow breaks and all that.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

 

You need to refer to the links I supplied.

I did, you need to refer to the Nasa link and the other link I provided which have the true temperature scales and sun effects

[Isaan sailor]

I’ll wait for China (world’s biggest polluter) to make the first move in CO2 reduction.

[ozimoron]

10 minutes ago, Isaan sailor said:

I’ll wait for China (world’s biggest polluter) to make the first move in CO2 reduction.

China Invests $546 Billion in Clean Energy, Far Surpassing the U.S. China once again topped the world in clean energy investments last year, a trend that could challenge U.S. efforts to develop more homegrown manufacturing

 

China accounted for nearly half of the world's low-carbon spending in 2022, which could challenge U.S. efforts to bolster domestic clean energy manufacturing

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/china-invests-546-billion-in-clean-energy-far-surpassing-the-u-s/

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Yes. Milankovitch cycles are believed to be at least party affect climate w.r.t. long term (e.g. full blown ice age) fluctuations.

 

However, more recently similar rates of change of the temperature from 1850-present sis occur during the The Little Ice Age, between about 1300 - 1850. In this case temperatures fell, but at a similar rate as they are rising today. Weak sunspot activity (Maunder Minimum) corresponded to the lowest temperatures about 1750.

 

Coincident with the Maunder Minimum, it is likely that the North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO), controlled by the Azores High and  Iceland Low pressure systems had have a significant regional impact. As the name suggests, this anomaly features variations, with one of these variations occurring when both of the pressure systems weaken enough to allow cold air to reach Northern Europe more easily, coincident with this Negative NAO Index. This variation can reduce temperatures by an estimated 2 deg C.

 

Now, the Little Ice Age temperatures dropped only slightly but the level and rate of change of these can be compared with those rising temperatures causing alarm today. Changes in climate also featured to a similar degree. 

 

I'd like to see the return of another Little Ice Age, just to see what would dictate climate and temperature. I think that the focus on GHG's, especially CO, as the cause of all our climate woes should be opened out. It would be really interesting to be able to compare the data if so much forest hadn't been trashed over the last 200 years.

 

https://www.eh-resources.org/little-ice-age/

 

https://www.swpc.noaa.gov/products/solar-cycle-progression

 

https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/access/monitoring/nao/

 

 

The problem with invoking the Little Ice Age is that it wasn't global. It was regional From your link:

 

"The Little Ice Age was a period of regionally cold conditions between roughly AD 1300 and 1850. The term “Little Ice Age” is somewhat questionable, because there was no single, well-defined period of prolonged cold. There were two phases of the Little Ice Age, the first beginning around 1290 and continuing until the late 1400s."

https://www.eh-resources.org/little-ice-age/

 

Modern Climate Change Is the Only Worldwide Warming Event of the Past 2,000 Years

The authors of new studies in Nature and Nature Geoscience used evidence of ancient climates gathered around the world, from tree rings to coral reefs, to examine the pace and extent of well-known episodes of warming or cooling over the past 2,000 years. They report that events like the Little Ice Age and Mediaeval Warm Period, driven by natural variability, were actually more regional than global in scope.

In fact, the only time in the past 2,000 years that nearly all of the Earth has undergone significant warming or cooling is the present period of change that began in the 20th century, according to the research of Nathan Steiger, an atmospheric scientist at the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory of Columbia University, and colleagues. 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/modern-climate-change-only-worldwide-warming-event-past-2000-years-180972719/

 

As for the Maunder Minimum

A previous period of low sunspot activity, the Maunder Minimum, lasted 70 years in the late 17th to early 18th century and coincided with part of the ‘Little Ice Age‘ – a period of cooling affecting parts of the globe that lasted around 300 years.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/maunder-minimum-solar-activity-and-the-little-ice-age-new-research/#:~:text=A previous period of low,that lasted around 300 years.

 

But I'm glad you raised the issue of the Maunder minimum. The past several solar cycles have also seen a steep reduction in sunspot activity up to around 2020, as your 2nd link shows.  In fact, scientists have, in the past, detected a weak direct correlation between decreased solar activity and global cooling, So, that should mean, that, if anything, this should be exerting a cooling effect on the climate. In fact, denialists were predicting that global warming would be reversed in the 21st century for this reason. Instead the oceans and troposphere are warming at very rapid rates.

 

 

 

[kwonitoy]

15 hours ago, nauseus said:

A nice and concerned guy he may have been but Carter was not a nuclear physicist.

https://www.cartercenter.org/about/experts/jimmy_carter.html

 

Chosen by Admiral Hyman Rickover for the nuclear submarine program, he was assigned to Schenectady, New York, where he took graduate work at Union College in reactor technology and nuclear physics and served as senior officer of the pre-commissioning crew of the Seawolf, the second nuclear submarine.

 

Close enough for me

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

The problem with invoking the Little Ice Age is that it wasn't global. It was regional From your link:

It's disappointing that we need to relitigate facts with climate change deniers over and over again.

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

It's disappointing that we need to relitigate facts with climate change deniers over and over again.

Well, t nauseus posted links. He was addressing the scientific issues directly. I think he was misinterpreting what the those links showed But he wasn't making irrelevant attacks on the character or lifestyles of prominent people. 

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Well, t nauseus posted links. He was addressing the scientific issues directly. I think he was misinterpreting what the those links showed But he wasn't making irrelevant attacks on the character or lifestyles of prominent people. 

The Little Ice Age and it's relevance to man made global warming has been discussed before. Sad that you need to do it again. Same argument but the doubters still can't get the memo, so to speak.

Edited April 22, 2023 by ozimoron

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

The Little Ice Age and it's relevance to man made global warming has been discussed before.

That I'm aware of. But I don't mind if someone brings it up again. At least it's about the science.

[BangkokReady]

Does anyone know when the data is going to be released from the effect covid had on all this?

 

The complete shut down for two years must have had some effect on emissions, which must have altered the warming in some way.

[ozimoron]

8 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

Does anyone know when the data is going to be released from the effect covid had on all this?

 

The complete shut down for two years must have had some effect on emissions, which must have altered the warming in some way.

Yes, apparently it did. Do you remember seeing those memes with Paris visible from a bedroom window in Alaska or somewhere far away? Seriously, there was a marked improvement in air quality because aircraft weren't flying. I think it would have had a lasting effect at least for a few years like Mt Pinatubo did by cooling the planet for about 2 years.

 

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emmanuelfelton/coronavirus-meme-nature-is-healing-we-are-the-virus

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by ozimoron

[BangkokReady]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Yes, apparently it did. Do you remember seeing those memes with Paris visible from a bedroom window in Alaska or somewhere far away? Seriously, there was a marked improvement in air quality because aircraft weren't flying. I think it would have had a lasting effect at least for a few years like Mt Pinatubo did by cooling the planet for about 2 years.

 

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emmanuelfelton/coronavirus-meme-nature-is-healing-we-are-the-virus

I didn't see any of those, but it seems perfectly logical.

 

What I'm talking about is something like "global warming slowed by X% during the pandemic, due to decreased emissions".

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

I didn't see any of those, but it seems perfectly logical.

 

What I'm talking about is something like "global warming slowed by X% during the pandemic, due to decreased emissions".

You should see a slight dip in the graphs, similar to the dip seen after Mt Pinatubo erupted. It will only be a dip though because flight numbers have returned to normal now.

[JonnyF]

16 hours ago, placeholder said:

How would their hypocrisy be relevant to the science.

As for the rest of what you wrote, once again when someone has nothing germane to answer with, they try to make it personal.

This topic about the scientific evidence that Greennalands and Antarctica's sheets are melting. Not about details of my home life.

You've got nothing.

Thanks for confirming your hypocrisy. 

 

Pontificating on internet forums while people like me make a real difference.

 

You've got nothing of worth. Just links to articles. You're probably driving a diesel truck while posting links to articles where Gates hires people to confirm 99.9% of people agree with him.

 

I'm sure your links will save the planet though :).

 

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Thanks for confirming your hypocrisy. 

 

Pontificating on internet forums while people like me make a real difference.

 

You've got nothing of worth. Just links to articles. You're probably driving a diesel truck while posting links to articles where Gates hires people to confirm 99.9% of people agree with him.

 

I'm sure your links will save the planet though :).

 

Once again making it personal.

 

And even if the personal was relevant, you got any independently confirmable evidence to prove that you are making a real difference?

 

Do you have a problem with the forum rule that requires assertions to be backed up by a link to credible sources? Maybe you should find a venue without such stipulations for you to haunt. In accordance with the rules of this forum I provide links to articles that are themselves from scientific organizations or fro articles that report on the science. 

 

The "evidence" you offer of your personal experience is unproveable and therefore worthless.

[nauseus]

11 hours ago, placeholder said:

The problem with invoking the Little Ice Age is that it wasn't global. It was regional From your link:

 

"The Little Ice Age was a period of regionally cold conditions between roughly AD 1300 and 1850. The term “Little Ice Age” is somewhat questionable, because there was no single, well-defined period of prolonged cold. There were two phases of the Little Ice Age, the first beginning around 1290 and continuing until the late 1400s."

https://www.eh-resources.org/little-ice-age/

 

Modern Climate Change Is the Only Worldwide Warming Event of the Past 2,000 Years

The authors of new studies in Nature and Nature Geoscience used evidence of ancient climates gathered around the world, from tree rings to coral reefs, to examine the pace and extent of well-known episodes of warming or cooling over the past 2,000 years. They report that events like the Little Ice Age and Mediaeval Warm Period, driven by natural variability, were actually more regional than global in scope.

In fact, the only time in the past 2,000 years that nearly all of the Earth has undergone significant warming or cooling is the present period of change that began in the 20th century, according to the research of Nathan Steiger, an atmospheric scientist at the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory of Columbia University, and colleagues. 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/modern-climate-change-only-worldwide-warming-event-past-2000-years-180972719/

 

As for the Maunder Minimum

A previous period of low sunspot activity, the Maunder Minimum, lasted 70 years in the late 17th to early 18th century and coincided with part of the ‘Little Ice Age‘ – a period of cooling affecting parts of the globe that lasted around 300 years.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/maunder-minimum-solar-activity-and-the-little-ice-age-new-research/#:~:text=A previous period of low,that lasted around 300 years.

 

But I'm glad you raised the issue of the Maunder minimum. The past several solar cycles have also seen a steep reduction in sunspot activity up to around 2020, as your 2nd link shows.  In fact, scientists have, in the past, detected a weak direct correlation between decreased solar activity and global cooling, So, that should mean, that, if anything, this should be exerting a cooling effect on the climate. In fact, denialists were predicting that global warming would be reversed in the 21st century for this reason. Instead the oceans and troposphere are warming at very rapid rates.

 

 

 

The Little Ice Age wasn't global but periods of it affected large regions of all continents, with glacial expansion recorded in Europe, New Zealand, Alaska, and the Andes. The term Little Ice Age is well established and accepted. 

 

Sunspot activity during the Maunder minimum was much less than at any time in recent history (from 1850), since when there has been no comparison. When this minimum combined with the North Atlantic Oscillation the cooling effect in Europe was amplified.  

 

I have used this phenomenon to demonstrate that certain conditions or phenomena can prompt cooling at a similar, or even a higher rate, than today's warming.

 

That is all.

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The Little Ice Age wasn't global but periods of it affected large regions of all continents, with glacial expansion recorded in Europe, New Zealand, Alaska, and the Andes. The term Little Ice Age is well established and accepted. 

 

Sunspot activity during the Maunder minimum was much less than at any time in recent history (from 1850), since when there has been no comparison. When this minimum combined with the North Atlantic Oscillation the cooling effect in Europe was amplified.  

 

I have used this phenomenon to demonstrate that certain conditions or phenomena can prompt cooling at a similar, or even a higher rate, than today's warming.

 

That is all.

It's not all, you forgot a link.

[nauseus]

13 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

I did, you need to refer to the Nasa link and the other link I provided which have the true temperature scales and sun effects

Sun effects? Says it all.

[nauseus]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

It's not all, you forgot a link.

Already supplied but here's one just for you:

 

https://www.britannica.com/science/Little-Ice-Age

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The Little Ice Age wasn't global but periods of it affected large regions of all continents, with glacial expansion recorded in Europe, New Zealand, Alaska, and the Andes. The term Little Ice Age is well established and accepted. 

 

Sunspot activity during the Maunder minimum was much less than at any time in recent history (from 1850), since when there has been no comparison. When this minimum combined with the North Atlantic Oscillation the cooling effect in Europe was amplified.  

 

I have used this phenomenon to demonstrate that certain conditions or phenomena can prompt cooling at a similar, or even a higher rate, than today's warming.

 

That is all.

All you've demonstrated is that there are local climatological phenomena that can be long lasting. Nothing about the global phenomenon which is what is being referred to by the terms Anthropogenic Climate Change and Global Warming.

In addition, your claims for the effect of solar activity, and particularly the Maunder Minimum,, on the climate are greatly overblown. The Little Ice age began hundreds of years before the Maunder Minimum and persisted well after it was over. I know that there's a logical fallacy called Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc., After This Therefore Because of This.  But I've never heard of  Ante Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc, Before This Therefore Because of This

 

UNUSUAL VOLCANIC EPISODE RAPIDLY TRIGGERED LITTLE ICE AGE, RESEARCHERS FIND

New evidence from northern ice sheets suggests that volcanic eruptions triggered the multiple-century cool spell known as the Little Ice Age, and pinpoints the start of the climate shift to the final decades of the 13th century. Researchers have long known that the Little Ice Age began sometime after the Middle Ages and lasted into the late 19th century. But, estimates of its onset have ranged from the 13th to the 16th century.

https://news.agu.org/press-release/unusual-volcanic-episode-rapidly-triggered-little-ice-age-researchers-find/

 

The Maunder minimum and the Little Ice Age: an update from recent reconstructions and climate simulations

 Using northern hemisphere surface air temperature reconstructions, the LIA can be most readily defined as an approximately 480 year period spanning AD 1440–1920, although not all of this period was notably cold. While the MM occurred within the much longer LIA period, the timing of the features are not suggestive of causation and should not, in isolation, be used as evidence of significant solar forcing of climate. Climate model simulations suggest multiple factors, particularly volcanic activity, were crucial for causing the cooler temperatures in the northern hemisphere during the LIA. A reduction in total solar irradiance likely contributed to the LIA at a level comparable to changing land use.

https://www.swsc-journal.org/articles/swsc/full_html/2017/01/swsc170014/swsc170014.html

[Yellowtail]

The ice sheets are melting, and the climate is changing such that most of it will become virtually uninhabitable and apparently the ONLY thing we can do wait for solar panels to be developed that work in the dark. 

 

5 Fast Facts about Spent Nuclear Fuel | Department of Energy

 

 

 

 

[ozimoron]

13 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Already supplied but here's one just for you:

 

https://www.britannica.com/science/Little-Ice-Age

I thought as much. This link actually contradicts the assertions you made. They were that it had global effect and was linked to sunspots.

 

For these reasons the Little Ice Age, though synonymous with cold temperatures, can also be characterized broadly as a period when there was an increase in temperature and precipitation variability across many parts of the globe.

 

 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

The ice sheets are melting, and the climate is changing such that most of it will become virtually uninhabitable and apparently the ONLY thing we can do wait for solar panels to be developed that work in the dark. 

 

5 Fast Facts about Spent Nuclear Fuel | Department of Energy

Batteries and wind