Gym Training - how often?

[ozimoron]

I've been going to the gym most days for a few months now. Recently I have read that too much training can cause mitochondrial damage if more frequent than 3 or 4 times a week.

 

My routine is to work a different muscle group each day for an hour. Push, pull and then legs on different days. I average a day off a week so I train each muscle group twice a week. I do abdominal exercises every day on the machine. I still only have a one pack but push about 75 pounds on the ab machine. I have a light build aka skinny except for the pot gut.

 

I've been wondering if the potential damage occurs in particular muscles which get over worked or whether it refers to the whole body? In other words does my routine constitute twice a week training for each muscle group and therefore within advisable limits or is it 6 times a week and too often, putting me at risk.

 

I recently took 2 weeks off due to an unrelated minor back injury and then songkran. I'm now back training and notice that my push strength has actually improved even with that time off while my pull strength is slightly lower, particularly chin ups which I find the most challenging. I set the machine to compensate about half my body weight.

 

Appreciate any insights and general advice. I'm nearly 69 and never been a gym rat, mostly just walking a lot. And other unspecified aerobic activity. I probably have more muscle mass now than at any time in my life. I don't suffer muscle soreness on subsequent days after training since the first week or two.

 

--------------------------

 

Strength training can help protect the brain from degeneration

 

Brawn can be good for the brain in at-risk old people

 

For the first time, an intervention - lifting weights - has been able to slow and even halt degeneration, over a long period, in brain areas particularly vulnerable to Alzheimer's disease.

 

https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2020/02/11/strength-training-can-help-protect-the-brain-from-degeneration.html

Edited April 26, 2023 by ozimoron

[LaosLover]

I'm a beginner compared to you (age 70), but I just surfed this topic at some length last night.

 

A really good source was an academic paper mentioned in the 9 page cholesterol thread that you were active in.

 

The consensus is that 4 or 6 is better than 3, but not 100% better. It's very diminishing returns. Relatedly, a book on weightlifting for oldies that I found helpful said that the third workout of the week only knocks you up by 20%, not 33%.

 

My big take away is that training improvement is a funnel-shaped process -you can only squeeze so much of it into any given length of time, just like you can only absorb so much protein.

 

On the upside, it seems that beginners do get a bonus-boost in growth by piling it on when starting training from ground zero. There's even a term for it, Beginner's Gains.

 

I just started training six days a week for 5 days now. First three days had me lying down a bit. Recently, I have a lot more energy -and a lot more desire to lift.

 

Long may it last. But my bit of googling suggests that's about 3 months, 6 if I'm lucky.

 

 

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, LaosLover said:

I'm a beginner compared to you (age 70), but I just surfed this topic at some length last night.

 

A really good source was an academic paper mentioned in the 9 page cholesterol thread that you were active in.

 

The consensus is that 4 or 6 is better than 3, but not 100% better. It's very diminishing returns. Relatedly, a book on weightlifting for oldies that I found helpful said that the third workout of the week only knocks you up by 20%, not 33%.

 

My big take away is that training improvement is a funnel-shaped process -you can only squeeze so much of it into any given length of time, just like you can only absorb so much protein.

 

On the upside, it seems that beginners do get a bonus-boost in growth by piling it on when starting training from ground zero. There's even a term for it, Beginner's Gains.

 

I just started training six days a week for 5 days now. First three days had me lying down a bit. Recently, I have a lot more energy -and a lot more desire to lift.

 

Long may it last. But my bit of googling suggests that's about 3 months, 6 if I'm lucky.

That's great. I also train on an empty stomach soon after I wake up. It can be a struggle to convince myself to go but I always feel better afterwards and mild ailments tend to go away during training. I did also read recently that it's not necessary to go to failure but one or two reps away from it to prevent injury. At out age preventing injury is more important that rapid muscle gains.

 

My favourite source of YT advice is this guy. On his advice I stopped intermittent fasting after a few months. It didn't seem to make much difference. I accept that limiting carbs is sufficient.

 

https://www.youtube.com/@DrBradStanfield

[bignok]

52 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

My routine is to work a different muscle group each day for an hour.

Too much for a beginner. Train full body 1 hr a time 3 times a week. 3 sets of 8 to 12 reps each exercise.

 

6 days a week split routine is for pros.

[Fat is a type of crazy]

For me 50 minutes to an hour 3 times a week is effective but a little light but leaves your body feeling relaxed and normal. Four pushes you that bit further and is better overall but does leave my body a bit tight and stressed. So for me 4 times a week mixed with, if possible, 10 to 15 minutes daily stretching yoga, and on other days you can do other stuff to stretch your body in a less pressurised way. I have a garden so can do that sort of stuff or walks or maybe a relaxed bike ride. I am surprised that that type of casual exercise seems to counter the stresses of gym unless you get too tired. 6 times a tough workout would be way too much for me. 

 

[BigStar]

More is less.

 

Your present method follows the traditional Arnold bodybuilding approach, all that trainers know in Thailand, beloved of fitness sites selling plans, schedules, and apps.

 

It works, of course, but high volume isn't necessary or safe. I wouldn't do it. Protecting the joints and staying in the game long-term is a particular issue for the elderly. Attracting babes at the beach is a complete non-starter.

 

 

As Steve Maxwell says, strength training should prevent injuries, not create them. All older trainees should read his

 

Dear Over-45 Trainee…

 

Much more efficient and safer, as Steve Maxwell obliquely references, would be to follow the Arthur Jones/Mike Mentzer/Ken Hutchins principles, popularized in the recent decade by Doug McGuff. Lighter weights, slow lifting, fewer sets & reps. Functional fitness with the benefits of fitness to your healthspan.

 

TUL (Time Under Load) is the key principle. You may have to read the well-documented Body By Science by Doug McGuff to convince yourself of this. But he talks benefits of resistance training while mentioning HIT in Area Under the Curve: Physiolgic Headroom Across a Lifetime.

 

Dr. Mercola's more specific here: Dr. Mercola Discusses Super Slow Workout. And he knows what he's talking about. Note that with intensity, the need to perform traditional cardio becomes much less important.

 

So, a couple of times a week of a full body routine will suffice. Can be done in 30 min, but, practically speaking, an hour is more realistic. There's setting up, loading and unloading plates, staying hydrated, and extra exercise beyond the big 5. Attention to the rotator cuff, face pulls, dead hangs, hyperextensions, reverse hypers, reverse flys, dropsets, etc.

 

Things not to worry much about (SHOCK)

 

- the order of the exercises. Yes, try to follow the optimal order. But if the machine or bench is busy, don't wait, do something else. Try to be complementary. You were going to do an overhead raise. Do a lat pulldown instead and (hopefully) then the raise. Rest very little between sets, keep that heart rate up. The sitting around playing with mobile phones, occupying a machine 30 min, you see all the time is ridiculous. A workout is just that: work. Business, same as your diet. Lifting intensely is harder than that all that rapid pumping up and down, using momentum, and stopping at 80%. Mentally, too. 

 

- progress. You try to make sure that you're going to absolute failure within 6 - 8 reps. If you don't hit it exactly, so what. You did a few more.???? You maxed out and you're going to be as strong as you can be at your age anyway.

 

- losing weight via exercise. Ain't gon' happen; exercise tends to make you eat more. Diet's the way, and low carb, high protein is complementary. You need more protein anyway, old boy.

 

 

- cardio. If you lift intensely, a few vigorous walks per week, if that, should suffice. I probably overdo it with 10 min of intervals (3 x 30 sec) on a recumbent bike after lifting. P. D. Mangan does only one interval. I should do mine on an alternate day, but I don't wanna bother going back to the gym. I'm not a bodybuilder.

 

End exhausted. Think of George Sheehan, 74, at the end of a marathon.

 

 

Meanwhile, my numbers are still all good and my V02max (calculated) is 44, superior for my age.

 

Recent article of interest:

 

 

--No Time to Lift? Designing Time-Efficient Training Programs for Strength and Hypertrophy: A Narrative Review

 

That article isn't addressed to seniors. P. D. Mangan, 68, does only one set per exercise, twice a week. NO anabolics, no TRT, as is obvious. Not a bodybuilder but a fitness trainer.  

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by BigStar

[ozimoron]

22 minutes ago, BigStar said:

More is less.

 

Your present method follows the traditional Arnold bodybuilding approach, all that trainers know in Thailand, beloved of fitness sites selling plans, schedules, and apps.

 

It works, of course, but high volume isn't necessary or safe. I wouldn't do it. Protecting the joints and staying in the game long-term is a particular issue for the elderly. Attracting babes at the beach is a complete non-starter.

 

 

As Steve Maxwell says, strength training should prevent injuries, not create them. All older trainees should read his

 

Dear Over-45 Trainee…

 

Much more efficient and safer, as Steve Maxwell obliquely references, would be to follow the Arthur Jones/Mike Mentzer/Ken Hutchins principles, popularized in the recent decade by Doug McGuff. Lighter weights, slow lifting, fewer sets & reps. Functional fitness with the benefits of fitness to your healthspan.

 

TUL (Time Under Load) is the key principle. You may have to read the well-documented Body By Science by Doug McGuff to convince yourself of this. But he talks benefits of resistance training while mentioning HIT in Area Under the Curve: Physiolgic Headroom Across a Lifetime.

 

Dr. Mercola's more specific here: Dr. Mercola Discusses Super Slow Workout. And he knows what he's talking about. Note that with intensity, the need to perform traditional cardio becomes much less important.

 

So, a couple of times a week of a full body routine will suffice. Can be done in 30 min, but, practically speaking, an hour is more realistic. There's setting up, loading and unloading plates, staying hydrated, and extra exercise beyond the big 5. Attention to the rotator cuff, face pulls, dead hangs, hyperextensions, reverse hypers, reverse flys, dropsets, etc.

 

Things not to worry much about (SHOCK)

 

- the order of the exercises. Yes, try to follow the optimal order. But if the machine or bench is busy, don't wait, do something else. Try to be complementary. You were going to do an overhead raise. Do a lat pulldown instead and (hopefully) then the raise. Rest very little between sets, keep that heart rate up. The sitting around playing with mobile phones, occupying a machine 30 min, you see all the time is ridiculous. A workout is just that: work. Business, same as your diet. Lifting intensely is harder than that all that rapid pumping up and down, using momentum, and stopping at 80%. Mentally, too. 

 

- progress. You try to make sure that you're going to absolute failure within 6 - 8 reps. If you don't hit it exactly, so what. You did a few more.???? You maxed out and you're going to be as strong as you can be at your age anyway.

 

- losing weight via exercise. Ain't gon' happen; exercise tends to make you eat more. Diet's the way, and low carb, high protein is complementary. You need more protein anyway, old boy.

 

 

- cardio. If you lift intensely, a few vigorous walks per week, if that, should suffice. I probably overdo it with 10 min of intervals (3 x 30 sec) on a recumbent bike after lifting. P. D. Mangan does only one interval. I should do mine on an alternate day, but I don't wanna bother going back to the gym. I'm not a bodybuilder.

 

End exhausted. Think of George Sheehan, 74, at the end of a marathon.

 

 

Meanwhile, my numbers are still all good and my V02max (calculated) is 44, superior for my age.

 

Recent article of interest:

 

 

--No Time to Lift? Designing Time-Efficient Training Programs for Strength and Hypertrophy: A Narrative Review

 

That article isn't addressed to seniors. P. D. Mangan, 68, does only one set per exercise, twice a week. NO anabolics, no TRT, as is obvious. Not a bodybuilder but a fitness trainer.  

 

Yeah I got all that except that I've had no trouble or joint pain with the standard 10 to 12 reps in 3 sets. ZI don't push the weight too hard. I have read that going to absolute failure is dangerous and that one or 2 reps short of failure works as well. The goal is to be breathless as I understand it. I'm not looking to be charles atlas, just fit and healthy.

[BigStar]

26 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Yeah I got all that except that I've had no trouble or joint pain with the standard 10 to 12 reps in 3 sets.

But, you see,

 

5 hours ago, ozimoron said:

I'm nearly 69 and never been a gym rat, mostly just walking a lot.

Babies never have joint problems. Reminds me of that scene in Jurassic Park,

 

 

You're fine until you're not fine, and then you have a problem you really wish you didn't have. So, no, you don't got all that yet.???? Go read the fitness forums, as I do. In fact, you don't know why you're doing a time-wasting 3 sets of 10 - 12 of relatively fast pumping except that a Thai trainer told you to do it. Probably better to do the research (consult the BBC) or apply common sense.

 

Or roll the dice: Genetics Voodoo and Fate are very highly regarded on the forum. Who cares? You were informed, anyway.

 

I do think that if you know everything already, as I  expected, you shouldn't be pretending to ask for insights and advice here.

Edited April 26, 2023 by BigStar

[ozimoron]

8 minutes ago, BigStar said:

But, you see,

 

Babies never have joint problems. Reminds me of that scene in Jurassic Park,

 

 

You're fine until you're not fine, and then you have a problem you really wish you didn't have. So, no, you don't got all that yet.???? Go read the fitness forums, as I do. In fact, you don't know why you're doing a time-wasting 3 sets of 10 - 12 of relatively fast pumping except that a Thai trainer told you to do it. Probably better to do the research (consult the BBC) or apply common sense.

 

Or roll the dice: Genetics Voodoo and Fate are very highly regarded on the forum. Who cares? You were informed, anyway.

 

I do think that if you know everything already, as I  expected, you shouldn't be pretending to ask for insights and advice here.

I'm kinda over your holier than thou attitude tbh.

[BigStar]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

I'm kinda over your holier than thou attitude tbh.

Good. Then you can address my points specifically and document the reasons behind your own smug practice. ???? You're big on science, I know.

[BangkokReady]

I don't know much about mitochondrial damage, but if you exercise too much you can "overtrain" and see less "gains", or pick up an injury.  You're probably training too much and that is why you feel stronger when you go back to it.  It think there's a name for when you take a break and come back stronger, but it escapes me now.  But it doesn't mean that you can train something like one week on and two weeks off.

 

It might be better to think carefully about how long you want to rest each muscle group rather than what you want to exercise each day.  I think a lot of weight lifters hit each muscle group less than twice a week, with some opting for once a week, organising the days they do things based on what days they want to do other things, and factoring in rest days.

 

Try one day a week for each muscle group.  Often people do something like chest and arms, shoulders and back, legs and core.  But you can look a little more into how to split your weight training up.

 

It's definitely worth reading up on how to weight train, even if you aren't looking to body-build and simply want to gain some strength.  There's a definite science to it, at whatever level.  The main difference is number of reps and maybe the speed.  (Although you should always aim to maintain control and safety.)

 

When it comes to cardio, you can be a bit more regular, but you still need to rest a little.  It also has an effect on how much muscle you can pack on.  If you want to body build, then cardio will attack your gains.

 

One thing you can do, if you love to go every day, is a thing called active rest, where you go to the gym, take it easy on the bike or walk for a while on the treadmill, very low effort but still nice, then have a stretch.  It's similar to resting, as you are really exerting yourself, but you are still being active.

 

One important thing is to really listen to your body.  If it tells you not to work out because something hurts, rest until it doesn't hurt anymore.  But also remember that sometimes you can get rid of a pain by exercising.  But it's a different kind of pain.  Muscle tightness vs muscle strain.

 

Always warm up and warm down on the cross trainer, then do full body stretches at the end of your workout.

[Walker88]

Maybe this topic is already dead, but just in case.....

 

If you are not feeling fatigued, then you are not working out too much. If you were damaging your mitochondria, it would evidence itself in low energy levels, quick tiring, and general fatigue. You should be okay.

 

There is so much new research regarding the benefits of exercise and the best way to exercise. I follow a lot of folks like Dr Peter Attia, Dr Andy Galpin, Dr Andrew Huberman and others, as they seem on top of the latest research.

 

Peter Attia claims that bar none, strenuous exercise is the #1 thing a person can do to increase longevity and healthspan. Exercise should combine both cardio and heavy resistance training.

 

I'm a lifelong gym rat, doing roughly the same routines I did when in school and university playing sports. I was lucky to have done many things right, and with new research I just tweak my routine a little. This is what I tend to do:

 

Gym days are 3 per week, though on "off days" I might run stairs, do pushups and situps, do planks, etc.

 

This is a bit controversial, but I do not stretch before weights. I use low weight at first and move slowly to fire the muscles and warm the joints and ligaments. Some research indicates stretching before lifting is more likely to lead to injury. After I know I've fired the muscles, I move up the weights with each successive set. My last set is usually something I can do maybe 3-5 reps max. I try to lift to within a rep or two of failure.

 

Exercises include bench, a variety of dumbbell exercises that work every muscle in the shoulder, leg presses, lat pulldowns, dead lifts, farmer's walk, sled pushes.

 

I never sought bulk, but my goal was always strength and stamina. Bulk has only a loose association with strength. More important is the number of mitochondria per muscle cell. I used to do the bench with defensive lineman, who outweighed me by 50+ kgs, but our lifts used the same weights (I was a wide receiver in American football, a point guard in basketball, and a sprinter + high jumper in track.) I needed explosiveness, so that is how I lifted. One needs to be a bit careful lifting the way I do, because injury is more likely when explosion is the goal, but overtime one's body adjusts to (maybe) being out of proper position. (Ido Portal suggests doing some things with purposely bad form because it trains the body to adjust for what happens normally in the course of sport or even work around the house. Rarely is one in perfect position when going up for a rebound or pass, or lifting heavy boxes off a shelf.)

 

Explosive exercise using high weights does many things for the body. It results in higher production of testosterone and HGH. It stresses mitochondria so they become more efficient. It produces lots of lactate, which has an amazing property of helping restore the blood-brain barrier, something that deteriorates with age and allows all sorts of nasty things to get through. Lactate seems to signal the epithelial walls along the blood-brain barrier to repair themselves. So---go for the burn. The body also can use lactate for fuel, as it reconstitutes it into ATP.

 

A workout should involve about 30% of the time in anaerobic activity, or Zone 4. If your heat rate max is 170 bpm, that means spending time in the 130-160 range out to max out hormone production and lactate.

 

Having a good cardiovascular system, which strenuous exercise promotes, also just helps feed the brain. Despite being maybe 1-2% of total body weight, the brain uses 25% of all energy. It makes sense to keep the tubes working well.

 

As for diet, the better in shape one is, the more carbohydrates are necessary. This flies in the face of keto, but remember most people who go on a keto diet are not in good shape. Someone in the top 10% in terms of fitness burns through first phosphocreatine, then carbs/glucose.

 

For those out of shape, the equation calories in = calories out for weight maintenance is not exactly right, but the more in shape someone is, the closer that equation fits.

 

Another interesting aspect of exercise is that it can make up for poor sleep. A sedentary person who sleeps poorly tends to see a rise is blood glucose and can become pre-diabetic or Type II diabetic (which greatly increases the chances for everything from heart disease to cancer to dementia). Strenuous exercise seems to reduce the glucose effects of poor sleep. Of course quality sleep is the goal, but this also means that exercise is a must even when one has slept poorly. No excuses.

 

Supplements can play a part on the margin. Most sports physicians now recommend everyone supplement with creatine, as it not only helps with workouts, but also seems to have some benefits for cognition. Many also recommend collagen peptides, as these help maintain ligaments and tendons. Another highly recommended supplement is Omega 3.

 

Personally, I take 5gms/day of creatine, I mix collagen peptides into a protein shake, I spread out about 2 gm/kg of body weight of protein throughout the day (Dr Valter Longo argues against too much protein, as it triggers mTor, but amino acids stay in the bloodstream for maybe an hour, so the time between last meal and breakfast is plenty of time to let mTor settle down). I also take Omega 3, zinc in the morning and magnesium before sleep, tart cherry extract before sleep, a combo of NAC and glycine (usually late afternoon or before sleep, as too close to a workout can rob some of the benefits of the exercise), and I cycle ashwagandha to keep cortisol levels down (again, except soon after exercise).

 

All of this seems to work. I've never had the flu, but I did test positive for Covid for 2 days. I haven't had a common cold in maybe 20 years. My BP is 105/70, resting heart rate is 55, body fat is 12%, VO2 Max is 46, and fasting blood glucose about 65-70. Some is genetics, but I like to think most is because I am extremely disciplined about my gym work.

 

Finally, I would forget your concerns about hurting your mitochondria. Your body will tell you. You must already be in good shape, so just keep doing what you do and enjoy the longest healthspan possible.