Dutch AOW pension question about how marriage affects your pension amount.

[Guitar God]

What happens with your Dutch AOW pension if you're married to a non-Dutch national who has never lived in the Netherlands and has never contributed to the AOW? A Thai wife for example.

According to the AOW, if you are married, you receive the married pension, regardless of where you were married, or if your wife has ever lived in or been a resident of the Netherlands. They didn't say whether you wife gets an additional amount equal to your married pension amount resulting in you getting more money than if you were single, or if you're penalized for being married and you get only the lower married pension instead of the higher single person's pension. 

Right now single pension is €1353.11 per month and married is €920.98 per person per month. If someone were 100% vested and married to a Thai wife who has no connection to the Netherlands, would they receive €1353.11 per month, or €1841.96 a month? 

Are there any people here who worked in the Netherlands and are drawing AOW and have a wife who never lived or worked in the Netherlands? 

Thanks in advance.

[bubblegum]

You will get 920- only! And yes it sucks and is not fair.

[F Groenen]

How does AOW know ? Isn't it only because you had the marriage registered in NL ?
How would one un-register a marriage in NL ? Does that require divorce papers ?
How official/legal are those Thai divorce papers ?
Does anyone have experience of un-registering a Thai marriage in NL ?

[damascase]

1 hour ago, bubblegum said:

You will get 920- only! And yes it sucks and is not fair.

Yes, 920€ only. Even if you are not married, but live/share a household together. 

[damascase]

36 minutes ago, F Groenen said:

How does AOW know ? Isn't it only because you had the marriage registered in NL ?
How would one un-register a marriage in NL ? Does that require divorce papers ?
How official/legal are those Thai divorce papers ?
Does anyone have experience of un-registering a Thai marriage in NL ?

Being married or not is not the issue. One gets the lower amount for sharing a household with another adult.

Edited April 27, 2023 by damascase

[Peterphuket]

You have to visit 'Thailandblog.nl' there you'll find much more info you'll need.

[F Groenen]

52 minutes ago, damascase said:

Being married or not is not the issue. One gets the lower amount for sharing a household with another adult.

And the only way they would know is by you telling them ? I can't imagine the AOW coming for a visit to check.

[ardsong]

@Groenen, please be reminded, that if  you receive AOW, yearly you have to fill a Life certificate and get it approved by the Thai Social Security (TSS) office. That paper has info on your (thai) partner/ wife.

Now I also got last week a new paper, requesting me to specify my yearly income and also the income from my partner/wife. Also that paper needs approval and signature from TSS.

So more and more information on you and your partner/wife is collected.

Edited April 27, 2023 by ardsong
make it more detailed

[Bob12345]

Getting 920 only sounds about right (maybe not fair, but thats another question).

 

They would simply require a Dutch Citizen Number (persoonsnummer) from your wife, which she doesnt have.

For tax purposes it is the same: although you are married and your marriage is registered in The Netherlands, she isn't your fiscal partner because the Dutch IRS does not know her.

[Bob12345]

3 hours ago, F Groenen said:

And the only way they would know is by you telling them ? I can't imagine the AOW coming for a visit to check.

Maybe the AOW simply asks the local government how many people are registered on a certain address.

 

If not, then you could lie and hope they never find out. If they do, some way or the other, you will be fined I suppose for the difference plus a huge markup.

[F Groenen]

2 hours ago, ardsong said:

@Groenen, please be reminded, that if  you receive AOW, yearly you have to fill a Life certificate and get it approved by the Thai Social Security (TSS) office. That paper has info on your (thai) partner/ wife.

Now I also got last week a new paper, requesting me to specify my yearly income and also the income from my partner/wife. Also that paper needs approval and signature from TSS.

So more and more information on you and your partner/wife is collected.

I have a few more years before I can collect AOW. This is very useful details, thank you ardsong.

[Stevemercer]

It is the same system in Australia.

 

If the government files show you are married to a non-citizen, you will get the married pension divided by half. The government makes the assumptiom that your wife has no entitlement to any Dutch benefits, but that she will contribute her own Thai salary/benefits/assets/pensions to the marriage.

 

If you subsequently separate (and/or divorce) you will revert to the single pension.

[jumbo]

I understood from numerous sources for Dutch speakers that the SVB people have contacts here to visit addresses where SVB doubts things submitted correctly to them, as well as SSO staff that are sent to the address. So yes, they have the ability to come and visit the registered address.

" we can't make it more fun'' Leuker kunnen we het niet maken" ????

[Henri]

The rules from SVB are quite complicated. Personally I would not ask information on a public form.

Visit the website from the SVB in NL, there you find all information you want to know. Start with the information "AOW en gezamenlijke huishouding", this brochure you can download in PDF format. There are much more brochures that are useful to download and read.

 

You receive the "married pension" not only when you are married, also when your child reach a certain age, have a live-in housekeeper, and much more.

 

As Groenen said you have to fill every year a Life Certificate which must be approved by the SSO (Social Security Office). The SSO makes a copy from the certificate and your passport and keep this in your personal file they have about you.

 

SVB NL works together with the SSO in Thailand. The way they check if the information on the Life Certificate is true can be done in many ways.

1. SVB send an officer to Thailand and check people together with officers form the SSO and the police in a house visit.

2. The SVB give a list to the SSO with details of people they want to be checked. In that case the SSO checks if your address is correct with immigration and the local amphur. furthermore when they have doubts about anything they will visit neighbors and interrogate them about you and if you really live alone, are not married, etc.

3. The SVB has much more ways to check you, by Dutch law they are allowed your social media accounts, bank accounts (to see if you support another person or make regular payments to a person), and ask the Ministry of Finance for details about you.

 

If appears you have lied about your personal situation you are in deep trouble.

Aside from paying back the difference between the single and the married pension  you will get a fee of 150% and SVB will file a complain about fraud with the Ministry of Justice, which will give you a criminal record for the rest of your life.

 

Aside of the AOW, apply for a DigiD before you receive your pension.

A DigiD save you a lot of hassle in communication with the SVB. sending your Life Certificate back after approval, apply for your AOW, and more.

 

Don't try to fool the SVB, you will lose for sure. It is impossible to hide your Thai wife or girlfriend forever. The SVB has many ways to check you.

 

Sorry for my bad English, I am Dutch and not English.

I have had my problems with the SVB too but was able to solve them. Same like the Ministry of Finance they are not easy to communicate with and you must be able to prove everything.

 

In case you want to know more you can PM me, then I can write in Dutch which is easier. about this subject.

 

Good luck with getting the AOW you are looking for. Henri.

 

[Henri]

2 hours ago, Stevemercer said:

It is the same system in Australia.

 

If the government files show you are married to a non-citizen, you will get the married pension divided by half. The government makes the assumptiom that your wife has no entitlement to any Dutch benefits, but that she will contribute her own Thai salary/benefits/assets/pensions to the marriage.

 

If you subsequently separate (and/or divorce) you will revert to the single pension.

In case you separate you will get a single pension after 3-5 years, not immediately. Probably a difference between Australia and The Netherlands.

[Henri]

3 hours ago, Bob12345 said:

Maybe the AOW simply asks the local government how many people are registered on a certain address.

 

If not, then you could lie and hope they never find out. If they do, some way or the other, you will be fined I suppose for the difference plus a huge markup.

Your information is not true. They have many ways to check if you lied.

When you lied you must pay back the difference over the time you received a pension for a single person. You get a fine of around 150%, you get a criminal record, and in worst cases even an arrest warrant from court and extradition back to The Netherlands..

[Guitar God]

I spoke with a Dutch friend who works for the government (but not for the SVB) and she found this online.

https://www.belastingtips.nl/kennisbank/fiscaaladvies_dossier/emigratie/recht_op_aow_na_emigratie/?fbclid=IwAR3BIIRjPlKtxnWuI1TO1tA7LyfGxtvd5eYMTWTWE07zzj2IESaqFVVmlKU

Foreign partner

Suppose you have emigrated to Spain and are retiring. Your partner is Spanish and is 40 years old, she has never lived or worked in the Netherlands. Your partner can still be insured in the Netherlands for 25 years for her state pension (theory). The supplement for your partner will then be 25 x 2% = 50% (of the married couples with an AOW pension). This percentage is determined at a point in time (when you turn 65) and will then no longer be adjusted. This is strange and incorrect, but that's the law, take advantage of it. When your partner turns 65, the supplement will stop. The allowance also stops in the event of your death.

I have a question for the people who said that I'd just get €920, is this based on personal experience or how you've heard it works or how you think it works? The article my friend found seems to contradict that unless this foreign policy supplement only applies to Dutch nationals but not to residents/past residents with a right to AOW.

[Guitar God]

8 hours ago, ardsong said:

@Groenen, please be reminded, that if  you receive AOW, yearly you have to fill a Life certificate and get it approved by the Thai Social Security (TSS) office. That paper has info on your (thai) partner/ wife.

Now I also got last week a new paper, requesting me to specify my yearly income and also the income from my partner/wife. Also that paper needs approval and signature from TSS.

So more and more information on you and your partner/wife is collected.

It sounds like you're receiving AOW and are married to a Thai who never contributed to the AOW. Does your wife receive anything, or do you just get the married pension for yourself?

I found this at belastingtips. nl which seems to indicate that she should be receiving a supplement. I still don't know if that applies to everyone who has a right to AOW or only Dutch citizens do.
Foreign partner

Suppose you have emigrated to Spain and are retiring. Your partner is Spanish and is 40 years old, she has never lived or worked in the Netherlands. Your partner can still be insured in the Netherlands for 25 years for her state pension (theory). The supplement for your partner will then be 25 x 2% = 50% (of the married couples with an AOW pension). This percentage is determined at a point in time (when you turn 65) and will then no longer be adjusted. This is strange and incorrect, but that's the law, take advantage of it. When your partner turns 65, the supplement will stop. The allowance also stops in the event of your death.

https://www.belastingtips.nl/kennisbank/fiscaaladvies_dossier/emigratie/recht_op_aow_na_emigratie/?fbclid=IwAR3BIIRjPlKtxnWuI1TO1tA7LyfGxtvd5eYMTWTWE07zzj2IESaqFVVmlKU

[Henri]

6 minutes ago, Guitar God said:

It sounds like you're receiving AOW and are married to a Thai who never contributed to the AOW. Does your wife receive anything, or do you just get the married pension for yourself?

I found this at belastingtips. nl which seems to indicate that she should be receiving a supplement. I still don't know if that applies to everyone who has a right to AOW or only Dutch citizens do.
Foreign partner

Suppose you have emigrated to Spain and are retiring. Your partner is Spanish and is 40 years old, she has never lived or worked in the Netherlands. Your partner can still be insured in the Netherlands for 25 years for her state pension (theory). The supplement for your partner will then be 25 x 2% = 50% (of the married couples with an AOW pension). This percentage is determined at a point in time (when you turn 65) and will then no longer be adjusted. This is strange and incorrect, but that's the law, take advantage of it. When your partner turns 65, the supplement will stop. The allowance also stops in the event of your death.

https://www.belastingtips.nl/kennisbank/fiscaaladvies_dossier/emigratie/recht_op_aow_na_emigratie/?fbclid=IwAR3BIIRjPlKtxnWuI1TO1tA7LyfGxtvd5eYMTWTWE07zzj2IESaqFVVmlKU

Spain is part of the EU. There are different rules for the EU and the Schengen area and for the countries in the rest of the world, like Thailand in this case. 

[Guitar God]

Upon further examination it seems that there used to be a "young partner supplement" but at some point prior to 2019 it was done away with in a budget cut. I read an article  in De Telegraaf about a man who lost €300 a month after marrying a Thai. Another commenter wrote "The abolition of the younger partner allowance was a pure cutback. There was no human dimension to it. The government has been calling for years that the state pension will become unaffordable and that is why cutbacks had to be made. This discount has been implemented under the guise of the partner working or having to work. It is irrelevant where one lives, whether the partner is physically able to work and whether work can be found."

[xtrnuno41]

31 minutes ago, Guitar God said:

I spoke with a Dutch friend who works for the government (but not for the SVB) and she found this online.

https://www.belastingtips.nl/kennisbank/fiscaaladvies_dossier/emigratie/recht_op_aow_na_emigratie/?fbclid=IwAR3BIIRjPlKtxnWuI1TO1tA7LyfGxtvd5eYMTWTWE07zzj2IESaqFVVmlKU

Foreign partner

Suppose you have emigrated to Spain and are retiring. Your partner is Spanish and is 40 years old, she has never lived or worked in the Netherlands. Your partner can still be insured in the Netherlands for 25 years for her state pension (theory). The supplement for your partner will then be 25 x 2% = 50% (of the married couples with an AOW pension). This percentage is determined at a point in time (when you turn 65) and will then no longer be adjusted. This is strange and incorrect, but that's the law, take advantage of it. When your partner turns 65, the supplement will stop. The allowance also stops in the event of your death.

I have a question for the people who said that I'd just get €920, is this based on personal experience or how you've heard it works or how you think it works? The article my friend found seems to contradict that unless this foreign policy supplement only applies to Dutch nationals but not to residents/past residents with a right to AOW.

Spanish isnt the same as Thai. Spain is EU ! Different rules, EU rules.

Thailand isnt EU. Tricky headline.

Ýou are married in Thailand or live together, bang, cut in pension, 920 euro's and they dont care if your Thai wife gets any from Thailand, not their problem.

Red about it thailandblog (tb) several cases of cut pension.

See @Henri, had his bad experiences.

Programs working with algorithms and AI giving an outcome and acted to it,  wrong or not.

Just red about visa in tb, denial of visa by AI and they use it everywhere. Machine controls humans. "toeslagen affaire " just another sample.

Another sample, now i got several times , i need to pay in advance income tax, numbers like 95 euro. What the hack, it cant wait? I MUST pay it(asked a person of tax on phone, incredible a human, but that was 2019), if not sanctions will follow, controlled by machine. She didnt say that, but it was obviously.

Machine tells me to do so automatic. Later I could have it back, if machine agrees!

So simple with you, you get less and your wife zip.

 

Also red in TB, Thailand hands over the tax control of Dutch to the Dutch tax section. Meaning more control over you and no more "hanky panky" with paying less tax by Thai tax nr and Thai tax paying. And of course Dutch machines to have remote control over you.

Well come to AI and machine controlling, we are the Borg, we will assimilate you, resistance is futile.

 

[hanssna]

Okay thanks for all the information ( I am Dutch and in around 12 years from now I hope to get my AOW here in Thailand). 

I have another question and maybe some Nederlander here has experience with this (please no guessing); 

I have been working / living here since a long time so according to mijn pensioenoverzicht .nl ( log in with DIGID) I will get around half of my AOW when I turn 68 or so...  since I only spent half my working life in NL.  Let's say this will be 600+ Euro.  Way below the 920 for sure.  Would that be cut even more if I am married to a Thai wife here? That would be a shame..   Or would it remain 600 Euro or so, because it's already much lower than the 920 Euro mentioned?  Anybody here in this situation?  Thanks for any more info on this ???? 

[Guitar God]

1 hour ago, hanssna said:

Okay thanks for all the information ( I am Dutch and in around 12 years from now I hope to get my AOW here in Thailand). 

I have another question and maybe some Nederlander here has experience with this (please no guessing); 

I have been working / living here since a long time so according to mijn pensioenoverzicht .nl ( log in with DIGID) I will get around half of my AOW when I turn 68 or so...  since I only spent half my working life in NL.  Let's say this will be 600+ Euro.  Way below the 920 for sure.  Would that be cut even more if I am married to a Thai wife here? That would be a shame..   Or would it remain 600 Euro or so, because it's already much lower than the 920 Euro mentioned?  Anybody here in this situation?  Thanks for any more info on this ???? 

I have 23 years in the Dutch system and therefore am eligible for 46% of  the fully vested (50 years) AOW pension. If I am single (or married and separated) I'd receive €653 (46% of €1353.11). If I'm married (and not separated and living together as husband and wife) I would receive 46% of €920.98 or €423.65 . I've yet to receive a payment so I can't confirm the amounts but based on answers I've received here and the results of additional research I believe I now have correct and current information.

It is possible to continue to contribute to AOW to build up more years credit when you retire in 12 years. I don't know the specifics but it might be worth contacting AOW to see if there'd be a benefit to your doing that.

[ardsong]

Yep, I do only get 53% of AOW as I have worked almost half my time outside of Nederland. I have a nice pension from my former employer, so the AOW is luckily not the only money I have to live on. I am married to a Thai, who is un-employed without income. Now I get Euro 830 bruto, and euro 754 netto each month.

[Henri]

15 hours ago, hanssna said:

Okay thanks for all the information ( I am Dutch and in around 12 years from now I hope to get my AOW here in Thailand). 

I have another question and maybe some Nederlander here has experience with this (please no guessing); 

I have been working / living here since a long time so according to mijn pensioenoverzicht .nl ( log in with DIGID) I will get around half of my AOW when I turn 68 or so...  since I only spent half my working life in NL.  Let's say this will be 600+ Euro.  Way below the 920 for sure.  Would that be cut even more if I am married to a Thai wife here? That would be a shame..   Or would it remain 600 Euro or so, because it's already much lower than the 920 Euro mentioned?  Anybody here in this situation?  Thanks for any more info on this ???? 

When you are married and have a Thai wife you will receive less Euro indeed.

The calculation is like this: Euro 920 (married pension) - 2% for each year you didn't work and was not insured for the AOW. Besides you have to deduct the tax, withhold in NL, according to the blue table (Blauwe belastingstabel). Then you know the net amount you will receive. You also must use the amounts mentioned without discount (Dutch = zonder loonheffingskorting). Indeed we are treated very unfair for the AOW and tax. After you left NL you not exist anymore, they don't care one iota about you.

 

As example, I worked 34 years in NL before I moved to Thailand. I am not married to a Thai.

My pension per 1 January 2023 is 34x2%=68% of the single pension. Cut 16x2%=32% for the years I didn't work. In case you only have AOW than it is impossible to live from such a small amount.

[Henri]

14 hours ago, Guitar God said:

I have 23 years in the Dutch system and therefore am eligible for 46% of  the fully vested (50 years) AOW pension. If I am single (or married and separated) I'd receive €653 (46% of €1353.11). If I'm married (and not separated and living together as husband and wife) I would receive 46% of €920.98 or €423.65 . I've yet to receive a payment so I can't confirm the amounts but based on answers I've received here and the results of additional research I believe I now have correct and current information.

It is possible to continue to contribute to AOW to build up more years credit when you retire in 12 years. I don't know the specifics but it might be worth contacting AOW to see if there'd be a benefit to your doing that.

No need to contact the SVB. Hanssna quit working too long already.

Indeed it is possible to continue to contribute for the AOW and pay 27 years (50-23 years) to receive a full pension of 100%. But people have to start paying premium to the SVB short time after they stop working.

 

Personally I had done this since the premium is affordable. Unfortunately I read about that possibility 3 years after I quit. So I had to live 19 years from my savings. 3 years In NL and 16 years in Thailand before I received my AOW.

[Bob12345]

On 4/27/2023 at 3:40 PM, Henri said:

Your information is not true. They have many ways to check if you lied.

When you lied you must pay back the difference over the time you received a pension for a single person. You get a fine of around 150%, you get a criminal record, and in worst cases even an arrest warrant from court and extradition back to The Netherlands..

Nowhere do you dispute my information, you just add some more details. My information is still true, you just found it incomplete and wanted to add something like "they have many ways" but give no further explanation. You might have noticed I never talked in absolutes; "this or that will happen", my post was mainly aimed at warning not to lie about your status because the post I reacted on implied they might never know if you dont tell them. 

[hanssna]

Useful information and thanks again Guitar God, ardsong and Henri for the info. My situation is similar to the first two of you, like I said I'll probably receive about half of my AOW in the future (without a pension though, we have our own business).

And Henri is correct as well; I can't pay in myself anymore; somewhere in the past I received letters (through a Dutch address) that I would get a hefty fine if I wouldn't insure myself for health insurance in NL, and deurwaarder threats since I was an NL citizen.

Through a bunch of letters and copies, I proved that I was insured already with the Thai SSO (I have a work permit) and this was waved away.   Years later I thought to check if I could pay in again, but I was already much too late, and cut off,  and couldn't contribute anymore. I called a friend who owns an Assurantiekantoor ( Insurance broker) and he stated the same and said it would be more useful to forget insurance and try some own saving...   

I didn't bother too much, because you never know what it will be in 12 years from now. For 'expats'  certain countries, the AOW will be cut anyway, for example Indonesia and Vietnam (no treaty) interesting to google sometimes.