NON-O without "access" to children/mother

[SuperSaiyan]

1 hour ago, GinBoy2 said:

You say you haven't seen them in Three years.

 

Did they learn as babies to speak your language, or do you speak Thai?

 

If not you are going to be in a very tough spot, neither of you will be able to communicate.

 

Regardless of the visa stuff, have you considered how hard this will be if they don't speak your language, and you theirs?

 

I have lived with them together for 8 years. Also replied already.

 

On 5/25/2023 at 12:17 PM, SuperSaiyan said:

The children not seeing me for 3 years is obviously bad, the biggest fear is that they won't even understand me. But why not try to connect anyway, for the children's sake. If it completely fails, I could move on anyway.

 

[SuperSaiyan]

1 hour ago, d4dang said:

I went through all the legal processes at the time 18 years ago for about 4 years. My legal rep was a retired judge who was respected. I have a daughter and he told me that was a problem as daughters end up with mothers while sons end up with fathers and this seems to be a precedent official or not. Custody agreements are rarely enforced. Having a son should improve your odds. My info is dated so it may no longer be valid or? My daughter now lives in India with her mother and Indian husband. I hope you will succeed and enjoy many years with your kid/s. I have not seen my daughter for 14 years.

 

Yeah, I heard similar stuff - could be hearsay though. I don't want to go into a legal battle as I don't see a point. The children live with their grandparents and I don't want to kidnap them, even if I would get custody rights. I am looking forward for a harmonic solution, ie. paying child support to grandmother and visiting them / they visit me and then go from there. I am also being realistic, if it doesn't work out then they have my contacts and that's the end of that story. I don't want to sound indifferent and not caring but it wasn't my choice to break up this family, so me trying to connect now while it's possible for me is my last effort.

[RedCardinal]

18 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Regards the ME Non O based on Thai family....

Was that ever available?

Yes, it was.  I used this for many years as I was frequently travelling and it suited my profile best.  I was issued with these in Europe and Malaysia up to about 3 years ago.

 

18 hours ago, BritTim said:

At one time, it was available in Penang, but required financial proof. It is unclear if they still do them.

I inquired recently, and they apparently do not.  Only SE, and then advise to get extension in-country.

[RedCardinal]

10 hours ago, SuperSaiyan said:

I am looking forward for a harmonic solution, ie. paying child support to grandmother and visiting them / they visit me and then go from there. I am also being realistic, if it doesn't work out then they have my contacts and that's the end of that story. I don't want to sound indifferent and not caring but it wasn't my choice to break up this family, so me trying to connect now while it's possible for me is my last effort.

This actually might work if you live in the same Immigration area AND the grandparents agree to support your visa arrangements.  The wildcard in all of this is whether Immigration will accept that the grandparents are the legal guardians or not, and whether they insist on the compliance of the mother.  However this works out I wish you and your children well.  

 

Just to note that @ubonjoe provided many answers over the years to my problems, and I only yesterday noticed the very sad announcement that he had recently passed away.  He was truly a kind soul, and his knowledge and wisdom will be sorely missed.  RIP.

[RedCardinal]

19 hours ago, SuperSaiyan said:

What was the proof that your son was living in Bangkok? Is his Tabien Baan in Bangkok or just took the statement "he's living in BKK" as what it is? And where did you apply then at the end?

Sorry, I missed these replies earlier.

 

At one time I explained my situation to 2 IOs in Phuket Immigration when I last applied for an extension.  They were empathetic and helpful.    I was asked to provide a letter from my son's school in Bangkok, which did not cause any issue.  My extension was granted, but I suspect some finer details about living arrangements etc. were less pronounced in the application.  The child and mother housebook copies were also required, but these are from a different region altogether.  They are required however, so you'll need them.

 

On a recent quest to convert from Tourist to Non-O the IO I dealt with (who was also very friendly and helpful), really seemed to focus in on family situation, despite my son's mother explaining the situation.  The IO kept referring to my "wife" and wanted to speak with the mother on different occasions.  At times it felt like the approach was similar to a marriage visa application. 

 

19 hours ago, SuperSaiyan said:

I don't know if I have shared custody, I just have the legitimization. I might get it translate but I doubt it will change anything regarding how to approach long stay visa.

I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that a married father and mother have joint custody/guardianship of their shared children.  In the case of unmarried parents, legitimization bestows the same legal arrangement regarding custody.  Under Thai law (again, my understanding) both recognised parents have joint custody unless a court has determined otherwise.  Enforcement of that law is almost unheard of IME.

 

But things can get very fuzzy very quickly.  The foreign volunteers at Phuket have a website (well done to them BTW) which includes a "Custodian Visa", but they state that it's only available if the foreign parent has sole custody.  I do remember @ubonjoe telling me that no such provision existed in the Immigration Act.  He also mentioned that their was no restriction requiring the child to live exclusively at the same address as the Alien.  But of course we all know that Immigration policies don't always strictly follow the letter of the law.

  

19 hours ago, SuperSaiyan said:

But I also don't want to be dependent on her in any way - this would probably lead to more problems. In the end, she might give me an ID card incorrectly signed on purpose and the consulate staff would ask me if I forged the signature (happened the last time in Penang).

In this case, I think you're going to be in a very difficult position.  Unless the grandparents have become the legal guardians, you're unlikely to get anywhere without the consent of the legal guardian.  I'm not a legal expert (I'll emphasise this yet again), but right now that appears to be the mother, despite the kids living with the grandparents.  I don't know your situation, but FWIW if it were me I'd focus on the grandparents initially, and trying to work out a solution with them.  It might mean building a relationship over a year or 2 - paying support, school fees etc. - and then trying to leverage that to get an amicable solution regarding joint or sole custody.  I'd also find a good lawyer ASAP just to help define the best approach.  I'm lucky in that I have some leverage over my son's mother since I pay for literally everything, and she has an interest in keeping it this way.  That's not uncommon here (I've heard many stories of mothers handing over sole custody in return for large payments, sadly), and in your case you may just have to accept a hostile visa environment for a year or 2 for the sake of your children.  I again wish you all the best with this. 

[Delight]

 I got this from an official website. Non 'O' seems to me the simple way to solve the OP's problem

2. O VISA CONDITIONS

2.1 O Visa is valid for 90 days from the date of issuance. Travellers must enter Thailand within the said 90-day period. They will be allowed to stay in Thailand for a period of up to 90 days, counting from the date of entry. During the 90-day period of stay, if they wish to leave and re-enter Thailand, they are required to apply for a re-entry permit (single or multiple) before departure. If they leave Thailand without a re-entry permit, the current stay permit shall be considered void.

2.2 Extention of visa is possible. Those qualified may obtain an additional one-year stay permit, counting from the date of entry to Thailand. The extension of stay is at the discretion of the immigration officer. Extension application can be made at the Office of Immigration Bureau. Please visit www.immigration.go.th for more information)

2.3 If the O Visa holder breaches the entry conditions, the stay permit will be revoked and he/she will be prohibited from entering Thailand in the future.

[RedCardinal]

57 minutes ago, Delight said:

Non 'O' seems to me the simple way to solve the OP's problem

Why bother posting this?  You've clearly made no effort to read the OP or understand the context of his problem.  Your post adds nothing of value whatsoever.

[SuperSaiyan]

1 hour ago, RedCardinal said:

At one time I explained my situation to 2 IOs in Phuket Immigration when I last applied for an extension.  They were empathetic and helpful.    I was asked to provide a letter from my son's school in Bangkok, which did not cause any issue.  My extension was granted, but I suspect some finer details about living arrangements etc. were less pronounced in the application.  The child and mother housebook copies were also required, but these are from a different region altogether.  They are required however, so you'll need them.

I had similar experiences over the years and it was always differently each visit or different IO. Yes, luckily I still have copies of the house book, even signed. The only think missing is the mother and/or signed ID card copy from her. (and the child, which may be possible to get from the grandparents). However, as noted already, it might work completely without that,... or it won't.

 

 

1 hour ago, RedCardinal said:

On a recent quest to convert from Tourist to Non-O the IO I dealt with (who was also very friendly and helpful), really seemed to focus in on family situation, despite my son's mother explaining the situation.  The IO kept referring to my "wife" and wanted to speak with the mother on different occasions.  At times it felt like the approach was similar to a marriage visa application. 

 

The times I went alone - as far as I can remember, I was mostly doing the first 60 day extensions of a fresh NON O by myself without any mother/child accompanying me - there was never a question about the mother, but the last time I went (after maybe 6-7x times) the IO asked for my son, not the mother. But once we did the yearly visa, they absolutely insisted on everything and some more.

 

They were always very friendly, except once, but that was 10+ years ago and a combination of me overstaying a week or so and losing my passport and both BKK and Phuket couldn't or didn't want to find me in the system and despite me telling them I am overstaying kicking me out of the office. Well, that's another long story.

 

 

1 hour ago, RedCardinal said:

I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that a married father and mother have joint custody/guardianship of their shared children.  In the case of unmarried parents, legitimization bestows the same legal arrangement regarding custody.  Under Thai law (again, my understanding) both recognised parents have joint custody unless a court has determined otherwise.  Enforcement of that law is almost unheard of IME.

Exactly as you put it, "Enforcement of that law is almost unheard of IME." - so I don't consider going the legal route fruitful. Also, the uncle told me already that "we don't want you to take them away" as I offered to take them to my country for better education. So, this doesn't seem to be a practicable, or healthy, approach.

 

 

1 hour ago, RedCardinal said:

  

In this case, I think you're going to be in a very difficult position.  Unless the grandparents have become the legal guardians, you're unlikely to get anywhere without the consent of the legal guardian.  I'm not a legal expert (I'll emphasise this yet again), but right now that appears to be the mother, despite the kids living with the grandparents.  I don't know your situation, but FWIW if it were me I'd focus on the grandparents initially, and trying to work out a solution with them.  It might mean building a relationship over a year or 2 - paying support, school fees etc. - and then trying to leverage that to get an amicable solution regarding joint or sole custody.  I'd also find a good lawyer ASAP just to help define the best approach.  I'm lucky in that I have some leverage over my son's mother since I pay for literally everything, and she has an interest in keeping it this way.  That's not uncommon here (I've heard many stories of mothers handing over sole custody in return for large payments, sadly), and in your case you may just have to accept a hostile visa environment for a year or 2 for the sake of your children.  I again wish you all the best with this. 

 

Well, there is a maybe. I paid around 300,000 THB school fees per year and the mother still decided it would be better to have them live in rural Nakon Nowhere and attend the small village school where they are indoctrinated and learn absolutely nothing.

 

I doubt that they changed anything legal wise, the reason they live with the grandparents are probably that the mother is working somewhere else, and from what I understand the face loss of the breakup is so great that she just won't live there. The uncle told me that the mother doesn't send money as well (unsure, could be negotiation for my support).

 

I had a good relationship with the grandparents (as far as it was possible without language understanding) and at the time of the breakup I lived at their home for a month alone and the grandmother cooked for me every day and told me that "don't worry, it's your home as well".

 

What I hope is that I can basically do the NON-O 90 days (without extending) and repeating it indefinitely, while trying the 60 day extension together with my child once I built more trust + the other options, ED visa and agent route. Including the grandmother in an IO meeting could go wrong as they are very fearful of authority and in the end she might agree with the IO on whatever he says even it might not be true - Thai culture thing.

[john donson]

if you can afford it,  ELITE VISA...

 

for a parent of Thai child visa, which immigration does not even have full or correct info available, you will need to have a child living with you or shared custody...

 

but as you are not married, no divorce and no shared custody

 

forget AGENTS, I was quoted 65k years ago to 'help' and still wanted me to forward them all the info... which if you have all documents, you don't need them

 

my ex was also a big pain in the butt... divorce with agreement in court

 

she knew she could just ignore everything she had promised me, like giving me the needed docs for my extension, no penalties for her.

 

The court clerk said:  she is in her right, she does not have to provide you any documents,  wtf, we agreed this in court or I would  have not agreed with the divorce papers she signed...

 

good luck

 

[john donson]

On 5/25/2023 at 11:41 PM, rattlesnake said:

I would ask an agent to sort it out for me.

agents in this case will ask a lot of money and all documents... I would be surprised they could pull this one off legally peope are quick with replies... no reading first that OP was never married but advising, with your marriage certificate...

 

people who reply first have any idea or experience? I do... specially after divorce and a non co-operating ex-wife made my life extreme difficult...

 

I got shared custody, wanted full, but ex opposed that, but had no interest in seeing her child... just for the fun of trying to get me out of the country...

 

daughters go to the mother?  nope... my daughter stayed full time with me, ex did not want to see her child and child did not want to see that devil mother...

 

 

[john donson]

sole custody... impossible in thailand as a judge will always rule for shared, in the benefit of the kids... but as no marriage, no judge either...

 

bad lawyers might offer to try for lots of money, wasted... they want to be paid in gold... 100k for a petition pf one page, to the court when my ex did not respect the agreement, with off course, ZERO promises for success... and you pay in advance...

 

you have money? 1 million for 20 years seems and ok deal, to be able to stay in Thailand, near your children and try to build a relationship again

 

unless the ex does not want and pulls a restrain order against you or pay some dudes in the village where your child lives, to interfere...  she might not send money to support her child, but she might pay for the above...

 

I could not use money with my ex to get anything done, as she had plenty herself and her main goal was to try to interfere contact with my child in any way possible...

 

 

[john donson]

On 5/26/2023 at 3:26 PM, RedCardinal said:

My situation is different, but there are some similarities.  My most recent experience might be of some value.  Here's my context:

* I'm in Phuket

* never married my son's mother

* legitimised my son via Family Court when he was ~2

* relationship ended ~7 years ago

* son is now 10 and lives in Bangkok

* I maintain both son and mother, and see him frequently + on talking terms with his mother

 

First thing - location within Thailand matters.  Different Immigration offices seem to make up their own rules.  I'm in Phuket, and when I applied for Non-O based on Thai family, they expected him to be in this region also.  He had to accompany me to Immigration to apply for my most recent visa (in-country switch from tourist to Non-O) and on previous extension applications.   At one time a couple of years ago the Phuket IOs suggested I go to Bangkok since that was my son's location, but Bangkok IOs said I needed to apply in Phuket where I was registered.  Go-figure...  So residing in the same Immigration area as your kids may be beneficial.

Immigration also wanted a video call from me with son in my home.  This was possible, but they gave the distinct impression they expect him to be fully resident in the same home.  My understanding of the visa regulations is that joint custody should be respected, but my experience with various IOs over the years is that it creates friction in the visa application process.  Maybe not always the case, but you're subject to the sole discretion of the individual IO you get the pleasure of dealing with on any given day.

 

Immigration did want mother's ID. signed etc. along with house book of mother and child.  Again, this seems counter-intuitive since my visa should have no relationship to the child's mother.  My court documents show I have joint legal custody.  But you will get nowhere trying to argue with IOs.  They also requested evidence from my son's school of attendance.  I wasn't asked to prove I paid his fees or otherwise supporting him, although providing that would have been easy enough.  Again, the mindset they approach this with is that everyone is living together as a family.  Introducing joint custody opens a can of worms IME.

 

I expect you're going to have a lot of trouble jumping through hoops to even get an initial visa in-country.  It may be easier from an embassy/consulate, and I think will likely issue a SE Non-O with the docs you mentioned.  My recent inquiries to nearby Thai embassies/consulates regarding ME Non-O based on Thai family all drew blanks.  So it seems that ME for this visa class may be no longer issued.

 

Getting an extension is probably your sole solution longer-term, and that will likely require at least some interaction and accommodation from the mother.  Without that, you may be faced with a long and expensive legal trek in order to meet Immigration requirements for the issuance of a long term visa/extension. 

I feel for you.  I expect you're in for a very rough time ahead based on the info you've shared.  Getting good legal advice now rather than later might shorten the journey you're just beginning.  Don't expect any assistance from Immigration.  I've met good/empathetic IOs, but the entire system is a bureaucratic nightmare which cares more about document checklists than the people it's supposed to serve.

very good and realistic info

 

except the IO in my case, first time they denied my extension, laughed and said, just go back to your home country... I explained the mother has no intention of taking care of the child, met with devil LAUGH...  extension denied... no empathy, no sympathy...   went to embassy abroad as those losers right in front of me did not want to help...  my ex aunt worked for immigration so there might have been extra red tape against me as custody was a real battle...  ex out for revenge..  but off course, where could I complain I was threated unfairly, even provide all documents officially demanded... pushing to use an agent... but none could even help as this is not as easy as a retirement visa...

 

shared custody...  this is what most judges rule... hardly ever sole custody...what immigration wants to see...  ex was hostile, immigration hostile... 

 

corrupt lawyers like to prey on people also... giving false hope to try to get sole custody, 100k they were asking, quoted a dozen to be sure... off course, with zero promise of success, but they could try... payment upfront off course... long battles in court or many visits at 30k per once + 5k at least in transport on top and VAT...

 

[SuperSaiyan]

2 hours ago, john donson said:

my ex was also a big pain in the butt... divorce with agreement in court

 

she knew she could just ignore everything she had promised me, like giving me the needed docs for my extension, no penalties for her.

 

The court clerk said:  she is in her right, she does not have to provide you any documents,  wtf, we agreed this in court or I would  have not agreed with the divorce papers she signed...

That's unfortunate to hear and I agree that going to court will be pointless.

 

2 hours ago, john donson said:

good luck

 

Thank you!

Edited May 27, 2023 by SuperSaiyan