Are Expats An Endangered Species?

[chinthee]

doesn't appear to be any thought in here to the small business man .......................

Backbone of any good democracy and the key to building a wealthy and healthy middle class. Simple way to bring lots of normal Thai & Isaan folks into a multitude of industries as part owners. Bring back VC and PE investment, companies get floated on various stockmarkets, all the formerly poor folks with stock options get rich. Rocket science?

[Mid]

Rocket science?

personal reality , a previously fledging restaurant catering to locals , ( office staff at the resorts )

that was employing four locals with all the legalities covered ,

now sits closed .....................

[Prakanong]

doesn't appear to be any thought in here to the small business man .......................

Backbone of any good democracy and the key to building a wealthy and healthy middle class. Simple way to bring lots of normal Thai & Isaan folks into a multitude of industries as part owners. Bring back VC and PE investment, companies get floated on various stockmarkets, all the formerly poor folks with stock options get rich. Rocket science?

Of course the SME is the backbone of every economy - in the UK its something like 90% or the workforce employed there (Or I mis-heard in a lecture the other night).

[JR Texas]

doesn't appear to be any thought in here to the small business man .......................

JR Texas: The xenophobic visa/business rules are have a negative impact on small-scale entrepreneurs who would like to invest in Thailand (that is why they are moving to Vietnam, Philippines, Cambodia). Small-scaled businesses are the backbone of most of the economies on the planet and hire the bulk of workers (over 80% in USA if memory serves). The changes to the visa/business rules are leading to loss of stability.....predictability.........investors do not like that.

The focus on "rich tourists" is misguided and stupid. It serves no purpose and only causes pain, mostly to Thais. Just think of how large the tourism industry is for budget travelers in Thailand.......and all the companies that support the industry.

There is no reason why Thailand can't develop a business/tourism system that creates a win-win situation for "rich" and "non rich." Why most people think you can't have one without the other is a mystery to me.

And any immigration/police officer with a brain can figure out a way to get rid of the truly undesirables........but that takes police work. Phony companies (takes police work to shut them down)........bad guys who break the law (takes police work to find them and remove them).....people that can't afford to live in Thailand (they are forced to leave because they have no money......simple....does not take any police work).

The visa/business rules are stupid beyond imagination and will not make things better for Thais.

[bendix]

I think your reasoning is getting muddled JR Texas. On what evidence are you claiming Thailand no longer welcomes budget travellers? There is a thriving industry dedicated just to them. Just because Thailand is trying to reposition itself as a premium travel destination (luxury resorts, spas etc), doesnt mean it is giving up on its more traditional tourism dollars. Both can live side by side.

But for too long Thailand's reputation in the tourism market has meant two things: sex tourism and backpackers. One can hardly blame them for trying to reposition and attract also the wealthier tourists from both old and new (Korea, China) markets.

The visa laws / business laws are a completely different subject, or they would be if people weren't so intent on becoming marginalised long-term residents using lax tourist visa laws to justify their stay.

Edited July 9, 2007 by bendix

[Mid]

The visa laws / business laws are a completely different subject, or they would be if people weren't so intent on becoming marginalised long-term residents using lax tourist visa laws to justify their stay.

???

the reason for suspension of trade was that only the accountant was making money ..................

that's to say the business was covering costs apart from ................

[bendix]

The visa laws / business laws are a completely different subject, or they would be if people weren't so intent on becoming marginalised long-term residents using lax tourist visa laws to justify their stay.

???

the reason for suspension of trade was that only the accountant was making money ..................

that's to say the business was covering costs apart from ................

I'm sure you know what you're talking about Mid. I'm buggered if I do.

[chinthee]

The visa laws / business laws are a completely different subject, or they would be if people weren't so intent on becoming marginalised long-term residents using lax tourist visa laws to justify their stay.

???

the reason for suspension of trade was that only the accountant was making money ..................

that's to say the business was covering costs apart from ................

I'm sure you know what you're talking about Mid. I'm buggered if I do.

Allow me to translate. Mid is saying that there used to be a nice thriving little business, but because it got bogged down with the 4:1 Thai to farang ratio, it no longer became viable and went out of beezwax.

Comprende?

[JR Texas]

I think your reasoning is getting muddled JR Texas. On what evidence are you claiming Thailand no longer welcomes budget travellers? There is a thriving industry dedicated just to them. Just because Thailand is trying to reposition itself as a premium travel destination (luxury resorts, spas etc), doesnt mean it is giving up on its more traditional tourism dollars. Both can live side by side.

But for too long Thailand's reputation in the tourism market has meant two things: sex tourism and backpackers. One can hardly blame them for trying to reposition and attract also the wealthier tourists from both old and new (Korea, China) markets.

The visa laws / business laws are a completely different subject, or they would be if people weren't so intent on becoming marginalised long-term residents using lax tourist visa laws to justify their stay.

JR Texas: Bendix, do I really have to spell it out for you: "Quality tourists." It is the message that is being sent out......maybe it is not stated in black and white.....but the message and meaning is clear. It is government policy. They should make it clear that they want BOTH rich tourists and all other tourists. A buck is a buck.......right? And the "all other tourists" have lots of bucks because there are far more of them than the rich tourists.

[retiredusn]

Anyone who retires here and who can't live on 50% of their retirement income is asking for a problem. No one knows the future with regards to inflation (other than it will happen; but at what rate?) and of course the baht exchange rate. If you don't have a big cushion you're asking for trouble. For example, if you are retired here and from the USA could you survive an exchange rate of 20baht/dollar? I doubt this will happen but IF IT DOES can you survive?

On the other hand, if you can get your home built here and pay cash for a car and toys then your monthly expenses go down to zilch and you can live great and actually save money each month. Some of the posters here such as GaryA, Dr. Naam, and myself are in this group. I think this is the retirement group targeted by Thai authorities.

I would not live here full-time if I were less than 50 years old UNLESS I had a kick-ass job.

I think the 'endangered species' are those who have been living on the edge and now the edge is crumbling..........

The wife and I (both farang) live and will live in Thailand for a very long time. I am retired on a military pension and even if the bhat goes to 20 too one it is better than living at 1 to 1 in the US

JR Texas: What a horrible and totally boring place this will be if most of the posters here get their wish......it will be like living next to Rush Limbaugh!

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. Where did I say this was "my wish"? I'm only stating what I perceive to be FACTS. IMO there are far too many posters here who cannot see/accept the way things are.

For those who want to live on the edge......fine......just keep your whines to yourself when it all goes pear shaped. I could not sleep well at night knowing I was living in a foreign country and had money problems. I guess to each his own.

the edge crumbles.......the 'short money' sexpats and lager-louts tremble........

[bendix]

[

Allow me to translate. Mid is saying that there used to be a nice thriving little business, but because it got bogged down with the 4:1 Thai to farang ratio, it no longer became viable and went out of beezwax.

Comprende?

Yes, but what's it got to do with my post that it warrants a quote?

Oh . .. . . . . . never mind. I'm bored of the subject now

[Mobi]

Horses for courses, if you dont wish to do that fine, some TOURISTS do!

and not forgetting keeps an awfull lot of ISSAN LADYS WITH 3 KIDS eating and hopefully paying for school which some people didnt get!, unlike some retirees of a different ilk; many with a much higher disposable incomes!!

Here we go again. Just because I state a truth, it is automatically assumed I deplore that truth. Unlike many TV members, I don't have a particular problem with the cheap sex tourists - live and let live, say I, provided they do no harm.

But I do, as already stated, have a problem with the beer-tanked Brits who have imported their particular brand of mindless violence to LOS.

However, in the cold light of day, do you really advocate cheap sex tourism on the grounds that it helps support single parent Issan families, and do you really think that any government would be happy with such a situation?

Time moves on, and there has to be better and more socially acceptable ways of raising the living standards of the poorest amongst us.

BTW there are other ways for those with higher disposable incomes to help those less fortunate than themselves, without having to indulge in sexual gratification at the hands of poor desperate women.

[steveromagnino]

doesn't appear to be any thought in here to the small business man .......................

Backbone of any good democracy and the key to building a wealthy and healthy middle class. Simple way to bring lots of normal Thai & Isaan folks into a multitude of industries as part owners. Bring back VC and PE investment, companies get floated on various stockmarkets, all the formerly poor folks with stock options get rich. Rocket science?

aim of minority foreign ownership is exactly that - problem with it is it tends to breed a group of lazy rich silent majority shareholders; especially when you have concentrated wealth distribution like here in Thailand.

To get poor people onboard; it isn't nearly as easy as some think creating a nation of entrepreneurs; reality is that in most countries a very small minority have any ability as entreprenuers and there are only a few countries worth looking at; I would not have said Singapore or Hong Kong were worthy examples for this; better to look to New Zealand, Australia and Japan for that. In fact, entrepreneurship is alive and well in Thailand; bringing in foreigners to compete directly against the locals is in my opinion a good thing (Porter's competitive intensity stuff) but it must be staged and therein lies the rub; deregulation and open markets are only good if you are ready to compete; the last 10 years of Thailand's development - giving free stuff to poor people, open borders willy nilly for farang kee nok tourists/long stay people, village funds with free money etc has done the poor people NO FAVOURS because the root problems of bad education, lack of skills and chasm between rich and poor has not bee addressed; instead what i consider 'soft money' has been propping up the economy. Getting rid of the lax laws that allowed this to occur will hurt - fact - but I have seen NZ go through a world of pain in the mid 80s and again in the early 90s, leading to some genuine growth in the mid to late 90s and until now.

VC and PE investment - you think this is not happening???! This is a world away from the poor of Issan like you would not believe. If you can name one company or technology that a poor person is likely to own a piece of and get rich from, please share, I am blank.

Anyway, for good environment for VC/PE, there are so many more important things to address - corporate governance; size of the float; market liquidity; transperency; quality communication from government - virtually none of these were addressed during TRT and some were somewhat clarified during the Chuan 2 era - methinks you are overly optimistic to think that the current slightly stricter laws for a few foreigners are in any way going to play a large impact on the development of a successful economy.

I work with plenty of foreigners in MNCs, and have found that most are busy making themselves rich (or not) and certainly not the calibre of expats you might find in Singapore/HK (and I hardly consider some of them to be that good either). The best people have invariably been entreprenuers working on the 'ground floor' so to speak, but how do you get go getters and movers and shakers in when they appear on the surface to be no different to the typical sexpat english teacher/bar owner? It is a question many countries including NZ, USA, Thailand and others struggle with. And Thailand's biggest trouble is the somewhat attractive lower class tends to attract more dregs than quality. Cambodia and Vietnam can look forward to a similar problem soon as they open their borders.

Open the borders to all and get the dregs. We've tried that. And Pattaya etc are testiment to what happens when you do that. Can't help but feel some of the current enforcement is a bit of swatting a fly with a hammer, but it is a move in the right direction when people realise that property and the all powerful tourist are not core drivers of long term success of a country. but how to sort out people like Mid along the way so they can keep working....

Not as easy as posting on TV that is for sure.

Pics or it didn't happen.

Edited July 9, 2007 by steveromagnino

[bendix]

JR Texas: Bendix, do I really have to spell it out for you: "Quality tourists." It is the message that is being sent out......maybe it is not stated in black and white.....but the message and meaning is clear. It is government policy. They should make it clear that they want BOTH rich tourists and all other tourists. A buck is a buck.......right? And the "all other tourists" have lots of bucks because there are far more of them than the rich tourists.

i'm afraid you do, because you're making no sense to me.

Why wouldnt it be a very good government policy for a government to actively seek higher quality, freer spending tourists to supplement those who already come?

Show me a country or major tourist market that WOULDN'T like to actively pursue and market itself to richer tourists? Isn't that the whole point of a business - maximising the returns you can generate from your (in this case, natural) assets?

It is inherently good government policy to position Thailand not only as a paradise for $25 dollar a day backpackers but also as a place where wealthier visitors can also come and spend their hard-earned. Frankly, it would be irresponsible not to.

And Thailand has such a diversity of attractions, that there is room for both.

Anyway, this debate is not about tourism. It's about the prospects for the expat. And it's my view that it is also good government policy to try to rid itself of its 'trash can of the world' image and refine it to something more salubrious.

[chinthee]

doesn't appear to be any thought in here to the small business man .......................

Backbone of any good democracy and the key to building a wealthy and healthy middle class. Simple way to bring lots of normal Thai & Isaan folks into a multitude of industries as part owners. Bring back VC and PE investment, companies get floated on various stockmarkets, all the formerly poor folks with stock options get rich. Rocket science?

aim of minority foreign ownership is exactly that; to get people onboard; it isn't nearly as easy as some think creating a nation of entrepreneurs; reality is that in most countries a very small minority have any ability as entreprenuers and there are only a few countries worth looking at; I would not have said Singapore or Hong Kong were worthy examples for this; better to look to New Zealand, Australia and Japan for that. In fact, entrepreneurship is alive and well in Thailand; bringing in foreigners to compete directly against the locals is in my opinion a good thing (Porter's competitive intensity stuff) but it must be staged and therein lies the rub; deregulation and open markets are only good if you are ready to compete; the last 10 years of Thailand's development - giving free stuff to poor people, open borders willy nilly for farang kee nok tourists/long stay people, village funds with free money etc has done the poor people NO FAVOURS because the root problems of bad education, lack of skills and chasm between rich and poor has not bee addressed; instead what i consider 'soft money' has been propping up the economy. Getting rid of the lax laws that allowed this to occur will hurt - fact - but I have seen NZ go through a world of pain in the mid 80s and again in the early 90s, leading to some genuine growth in the mid to late 90s and until now.

VC and PE investment - you think this is not happening???! This is a world away from the poor of Issan like you would not believe.

There are so many more important things to address - corporate governance; market liquidity; transperency; quality communication from government - virtually none of these were addressed during TRT and some were somewhat clarified during the Chuan 2 era - sadly methinks you are overly optimistic to think that the current slightly stricter laws for a few foreigners are in any way going to play a large impact on the development of a successful economy.

I work with plenty of foreigners in MNCs, and have found that most are busy making themselves rich (or not) and certainly not the calibre of expats you might find in Singapore/HK (and I hardly consider some of them to be that good either). The few best people have invariably been entreprenuers, but how do you get go getters and movers and shakers in when they appear on the surface to be no different to the typical sexpat english teacher/bar owner? It is a question many countries including NZ, USA, Thailand and others struggle with.

Open the borders to all and get the dregs. We've tried that. And Pattaya etc are testiment to what happens when you do that. Can't help but feel some of the current enforcement is a bit of swatting a fly with a hammer, but it is a move in the right direction when people realise that property and the all powerful tourist are not core drivers of long term success of a country.

VC and PE investment - you think this is not happening???! This is a world away from the poor of Issan like you would not believe.

Absolute Bullsh!t. I know the VC and PE business very well, having been the recipient of a number of world class investors in my companies in Asia. Horsesh!t. They are gone from Thailand, without question. They are in India, China & Vietnam, looking at piles of well thought-out business plans, and investing.

I say open the borders to people who KNOW HOW to build great businesses. They will bring the Thai middle class up with them. Stop protecting the Hi-So bangkok families who think they have a monopoly on any business start-ups!

Edited July 9, 2007 by chinthee

[Mid]

but how to sort out people like Mid along the way so they can keep working....

knew someone would fall in , kinda surprised it's you .

I'm fine thanxs ,

my point is more about the four locals who were previously employed , you missed that .

[steveromagnino]

VC and PE investment - you think this is not happening???! This is a world away from the poor of Issan like you would not believe.

Absolute Bullsh!t. I know the VC and PE business very well, having been the recipient of a number of world class investors in my companies in Asia. Horsesh!t. They are gone from Thailand, without question. They are in India, China & Vietnam, looking at piles of well thought-out business plans, and investing.

I say open the borders to people who KNOW HOW to build great businesses. They will bring the Thai middle class up with them. Stop protecting the Hi-So bangkok families who think they have a monopoly on any business start-ups!

So...you are saying that VC and PE used to be running around Issaan pumping money into farm enterprises??

When exactly did this occur??

And you are now telling me that as a result of the changes to VISA regulations for expats, that this stream of cash has dried up; and that the strong baht, political uncertainty and economic downturn (none really related to the visa regulations) are of minor importance?

Funny you should mention this, as my latest client has just brought in a BUNDLE of cash from PE for the property sector; so yeah, VC and PE money is quite relevant to me. And let's see; well one of my other clients just did a major hotel deal and a third I know well is bringing together some parties to get into a very high tech business indeed close to my heart.

I totally agree with the sentiment. Yeah, let's bring in people who know how to build great businesses. With BOI though, it is pretty much an open door right now for the bigger companies; which bit exactly in the new VISA regulations do you think are protecting these so called hi-So bangkok families that so many Farangs seem to dispise (yet probably don't even know) from stopping these foreigners setting up businesses to compete against them? Thailand isn't going to be competitive in all enterprises, that's pretty obvious; so what sudden increase in competitive advantage are we going to develop by changing a few VISA regulations???

Or am I mistaken, is a one man start up bank/duty free chain (a couple of the sectors with plenty of protection for the 'Hi-So' families) suddenly a viable enterprise these days in the City of Smiles. ..... most everything else is open to 49% ownership or more in some sectors, and that hasn't changed at all in recent times, other than a question of enforcement.

Horsepoo indeed. Nice language; you Americans sure have an endearing use of the english language. I can only assume horsepoo is a bad thing from your tone, or it means something isn't true. As a Thai (and therefore, presumably not entrepreneurial and in need of foreign assistance) I can only hope that some kind farang will one day teach me the real english ;_0 complete with idioms involving horses. And kee.

Mid - my concern with keeping people working wasn't with you; it was your staff - I can think of more fun ways for you to spend your time than having to work - cue dramatic music and high speed Mumm sailing.

Edited July 9, 2007 by steveromagnino

[bendix]

I'm very disappointed to hear there is no VC / PE industry in Thailand. I had better go and report that to the very busy bunch of specialist lawyers down on level 24 who tell me they are inundated with work at the moment. I better check their timesheets while I'm at it. I assume they've been filling their time with online poker.

[chinthee]

VC and PE investment - you think this is not happening???! This is a world away from the poor of Issan like you would not believe.

Absolute Bullsh!t. I know the VC and PE business very well, having been the recipient of a number of world class investors in my companies in Asia. Horsesh!t. They are gone from Thailand, without question. They are in India, China & Vietnam, looking at piles of well thought-out business plans, and investing.

I say open the borders to people who KNOW HOW to build great businesses. They will bring the Thai middle class up with them. Stop protecting the Hi-So bangkok families who think they have a monopoly on any business start-ups!

So...you are saying that VC and PE used to be running around Issaan pumping money into farm enterprises??

When exactly did this occur??

And you are now telling me that as a result of the changes to VISA regulations for expats, that this stream of cash has dried up; and that the strong baht, political uncertainty and economic downturn (none really related to the visa regulations) are of minor importance?

Funny you should mention this, as my latest client has just brought in a BUNDLE of cash from PE for the property sector; so yeah, VC and PE money is quite relevant to me. And let's see; well one of my other clients just did a major hotel deal and a third I know well is bringing together some parties to get into a very high tech business indeed close to my heart.

I totally agree with the sentiment. Yeah, let's bring in people who know how to build great businesses. With BOI though, it is pretty much an open door right now for the bigger companies; which bit exactly in the new VISA regulations do you think are protecting these so called hi-So bangkok families that so many Farangs seem to dispise (yet probably don't even know) from stopping these foreigners setting up businesses to compete against them? Thailand isn't going to be competitive in all enterprises, that's pretty obvious; so what sudden increase in competitive advantage are we going to develop by changing a few VISA regulations???

Or am I mistaken, is a one man start up bank/duty free chain (a couple of the sectors with plenty of protection for the 'Hi-So' families) suddenly a viable enterprise these days in the City of Smiles. ..... most everything else is open to 49% ownership or more in some sectors, and that hasn't changed at all in recent times, other than a question of enforcement.

Mid - my concern with keeping people working wasn't with you; it was your staff - I can think of more fun ways for you to spend your time than having to work - cue dramatic music and high speed Mumm sailing.

Steve, buddy, I'm too lazy to consult the Asia Venture Capital Directory, but last time I checked there were, let's see uh...1,000s of funds in HK and SG, and uh, a few in Bangkok, and those were closed. If you're referred to property funds, that's a different animal.

PM me, and I'd be glad to discuss this with you more substantively. I know almost every one of the VC and PE houses in Asia, quite well. No need to bog down this forum.

[chinthee]

I'm very disappointed to hear there is no VC / PE industry in Thailand. I had better go and report that to the very busy bunch of specialist lawyers down on level 24 who tell me they are inundated with work at the moment. I better check their timesheets while I'm at it. I assume they've been filling their time with online poker.

International funds with foreign LP's? I don't think much. I do know of a few large scale buy out deals by big PE firms, but apart from that, I stand by my assertion.

[steveromagnino]

Steve, buddy, I'm too lazy to consult the Asia Venture Capital Directory, but last time I checked there were, let's see uh...1,000s of funds in HK and SG, and uh, a few in Bangkok, and those were closed. If you're referred to property funds, that's a different animal.

PM me, and I'd be glad to discuss this with you more substantively. I know almost every one of the VC and PE houses in Asia, quite well. No need to bog down this forum.

I suspect we are talking at cross purposes here. My own feeling is that Thailand has never been a major destination for these guys; at least not beyond property and distressed assets.

The current deals being down are possibly less than a few years ago, but there are still deals being done in my sphere of business. I don't chalk up any change to being related to expat VISA situation.

My main point is.....lots more to address of greater importance than expat visa situation right now.

And this horsesh!t thing; it is a bad thing right?

[chinthee]

Steve, buddy, I'm too lazy to consult the Asia Venture Capital Directory, but last time I checked there were, let's see uh...1,000s of funds in HK and SG, and uh, a few in Bangkok, and those were closed. If you're referred to property funds, that's a different animal.

PM me, and I'd be glad to discuss this with you more substantively. I know almost every one of the VC and PE houses in Asia, quite well. No need to bog down this forum.

I suspect we are talking at cross purposes here. My own feeling is that Thailand has never been a major destination for these guys; at least not beyond property and distressed assets.

The current deals being down are possibly less than a few years ago, but there are still deals being done in my sphere of business. I don't chalk up any change to being related to expat VISA situation.

My main point is.....lots more to address of greater importance than expat visa situation right now.

And this horsesh!t thing; it is a bad thing right?

Ah, yes, we're reaching common ground, or as they say in music appreciation, a resolved dissonance. so nice to the ears. Yes, your point is well taken, Thailand was never a big destination for these guys because the policies and laws never set up the conditions to allow this. That is my argument. But I really believe Thailand needs this for growth.

And yes, horseshite is normally a bad thing, and I apologized if I made you step in it.

[steveromagnino]

Ah, yes, we're reaching common ground, or as they say in music appreciation, a resolved dissonance. so nice to the ears. Yes, your point is well taken, Thailand was never a big destination for these guys because the policies and laws never set up the conditions to allow this. That is my argument. But I really believe Thailand needs this for growth.

We agree on the end point then. However, I cannot agree with your concept of resolved dissonance. As a MAJOR thelonius Monk fan, I think you will find unresolved dissonance, for music, to be more exciting and interesting to the ear; also described by my musically gifted mother as 'that horrid bebop noise'.

Ruby My Dear. check it yo essay :-)

[vermin on arrival]

I 'fell in love' with Thailand on my first visit to Asia, and moved to Chiang Mai within months. But it's still a developing country with more than its share of problems, even if you're a native Thai citizen. For English teachers, it's the pits. The opening post explains the myriad challenges facing expatriates who might wish to work or retire here. I can't even get friends and family to visit me, and I wouldn't advise anybody to move here unless they already have millions of dollars which they're eager to lose.

Once you get to the higher end expatriates who can afford to live here very comfortably, earn big bucks, buy big houses for their girlfriends, etc., you're talking about rich folks who have 48 other choices of where to settle. Same for teachers: if you're good enough to get a top ranking job here, you've already got a far better job back home.

I agree with you PB. I don't even advise people to come here for a holiday anymore even though it is nice to have visitors; Thailand's tourist industry is overdeveloped, or maybe oversaturated is the better term, and the Thais don't really appreciate tourists anymore. There many more interesting destinations for that now.

Edited July 9, 2007 by vermin on arrival

[chinthee]

Ah, yes, we're reaching common ground, or as they say in music appreciation, a resolved dissonance. so nice to the ears. Yes, your point is well taken, Thailand was never a big destination for these guys because the policies and laws never set up the conditions to allow this. That is my argument. But I really believe Thailand needs this for growth.

We agree on the end point then. However, I cannot agree with your concept of resolved dissonance. As a MAJOR thelonius Monk fan, I think you will find unresolved dissonance, for music, to be more exciting and interesting to the ear; also described by my musically gifted mother as 'that horrid bebop noise'.

Ruby My Dear. check it yo essay :-)

Steve, I'm gonna seriously start to be attracted to you if you're a Monk Fan, and I'm straight and married. But I'm a serious Kind of Blue (Miles Davis) and Charlieyardbird, Coltrane kind of guy. Guess we'll just have to go steady.

[esbobes]

doesn't appear to be any thought in here to the small business man .......................

Backbone of any good democracy and the key to building a wealthy and healthy middle class. Simple way to bring lots of normal Thai & Isaan folks into a multitude of industries as part owners. Bring back VC and PE investment, companies get floated on various stockmarkets, all the formerly poor folks with stock options get rich. Rocket science?

I hear from my Hi-So thai wife the King and Queen of England as well as Tony Blair are now investing in Thailand and they are buying up land in Issan to short a resort for the Super Rich

Soon 1 dollar = 1 baht that way no more poor yanks here

[chinthee]

Mods, if you feel this thread has run its course, please feel free to close it.

Regards

[solo siam]

Most of you guys are just talking about money reasons.

Beaches, Food, Price, Views, Women, Lifestyle, Fun etc...

Have you seen the beaches in Europe or HK/Singapore?

[Jersey_UK]

The focus on "rich tourists" is misguided and stupid. It serves no purpose and only causes pain, mostly to Thais. Just think of how large the tourism industry is for budget travelers in Thailand.......and all the companies that support the industry.

"Quality Tourists".........the Holy Grail of Tourism ..........gets sought after because it seems an easier way of making money and for less hassle (less tourists each paying more money, where could it go wrong??!!).

And also good cover by pretending that the reason your product has become overpriced or uncompetetive or outdated is in the drive for quality Tourists...........and not because folk who would have bought tat only because it was cheap are just not dumb enough to buy the same tat for a higher price. Whether these folk be rich or poor don't make them all dumb.

IMO Thailand has to realise that one of things in Tourism has changed is that many Farang can afford to spend a lot of time on holiday, not just 2 weeks a year and that work patterns in the west allow this by the long since ended concept of "a job for life".......employment mobility does allow for someone to work for 6 or 9 months a year, dump a job and go to Thailand, even if they are self employed. Why would Thailand NOT want these people spending money in Thailand? (even if you can't control what some of them do in their bedrooms).

And not everyone retires at 65 anymore. Some even "retire" for a few years in their 20's, 30's and 40's and then return to work. What is wrong with taking their money off them?

My answer is sell longer Visas! (and folk save on the £ cost and no hassle of doing Visa runs).

Edited July 15, 2007 by Jersey_UK

[Jersey_UK]

Have you seen the beaches in Europe.

Yes.

10 minutes away from me. Of course I never sit on Beaches, that's just for Tourists!

"Jersey - Not in Milton Keynes".