Degree Verification Or Not?

[spice1]

Has anyone heard about the reality of this?

I have heard that it was a rumour and that it couldnt be implemented as the MoE doesnt have the manpower.

A friend of mine, who unfortunately did pass a fake degree through and has now lost his job as the company he

worked for does not want to bear the consequences if it was ever to come back to them, even though they said dont worry about it.

Rumour or real?

[Ijustwannateach]

Real, intermittently. It's better (and legal) to own up to your true qualifications and not get hired than to get caught committing fraud (even if your company/school conspires with you). You're the one who'll pay the piper.

[spice1]

yeah i myself understand that, although some dont.

there is also a post on ajarn stating what i had previously said and was curious to find out if it BS..

[Etrigan]

.....and from where did you hear a rumour that the MoE doesn't have manpower to execute it's duties????

Well here's another rumour for you: The moon is actually made out of cheese.

100% true rumour.

[spice1]

http://www.ajarn.com/Banter/visaworkpermitfaq.htm

and under the question 'What are the current requirements from the Thai Ministry of Education? (last paragraph)

and i suppose you are now going to tell me the cow didnt jump over the moon !

[LPCustom69]

The "roaming work permit" mentioned seems like a good idea to help people from technically breaking the law while working for the same company at a different location.

Real, intermittently. It's better (and legal) to own up to your true qualifications and not get hired than to get caught committing fraud (even if your company/school conspires with you). You're the one who'll pay the piper.

[mopenyang]

Whether or not the MoE has the resources to verify all degrees or the moon is made of cheese or something else and the cow finally did or did not jump over whatever the moon is made of, the fact remains that if you get caught using a fake diploma you run the risk of getting arrested, jailed, fined, deported and blacklisted.

It all comes down to an individual decision with individual consequences.

[PeaceBlondie]

My eyes glazed over shortly after the second half-truth on that Ajarn.com URL you posted, sometime after it said that you have to have a TL (no, not in govt. schools). There are no truths here, no nationally enforced standards. But you must submit a real degree if they ask, not a fake. If your boss tells you to go buy a fake diploma, run away.

You can search this forum for 'degree verification' and you'll find countless comments on how ALMOST ALL SCHOOLS COULDN'T VERIFY A DEGREE. No, the local embassies don't do it. But the schools and agencies can 'verify' it to their satisfaction, even if they couldn't make an international phone call at the right time zone if their career depended on it. It is doubtful that the MoE has the available manpower who actually knows how to verify foreign degrees, enough to verify half the ones that are submitted to them.

[bruceboy]

One of these crooks got caught by immigration using fake certificates to get a work permit at my daughters school. Immigration gave him 7 days to get his sorry arse out of Thailand. In my opinion he should of been taken to court and prosecuted for fraud.

[stevemiddie]

One of these crooks got caught by immigration using fake certificates to get a work permit at my daughters school. Immigration gave him 7 days to get his sorry arse out of Thailand. In my opinion he should of been taken to court and prosecuted for fraud.

hello. I don,t know for sure about this but if someone has been caugfht using fake degrees..............i doubt its been discovered through a verification process.

Its more than likely been discovered when the cops raided all the printing houses in KS road a while ago............and pulled loads of names off the computers.

[tayto]

Plenty of guys throughout the world being caught with fake degrees for sale.

www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030617/nat2.jpg

[idle44mins]

Please don't forget, that nobody is allowed to verify your degree without your written permission!!!!!

Universities are not allowed to give information regarding their former students without a written notice signed by the former student.

[aussiestyle1983]

I'm surprised that you don't hear of too many cases of Thai management working for the schools forging these letters to universities to find out about certain people's credentials...............

[Momo8]

WRONG

If I knew your full name,your birthday,the university you attended and the YEAR you graduated I can check it right now....and this is information is on your CV remember.A written permission is needed if they want a transcript of academic records.Students who are enrolled and have graduated from any institution is public information.

Verifying online is very easy just contact the registrar and punch in the information.Go ahead and try it out by checking your own degree (if you have one)

Edited July 10, 2007 by Momo8

[Scott]

To the best of my knowledge, it isn't the MOE that verifies the degrees, it is the school. I am the one who has to send a letter to the school for verification. In general, I do it by email.

By the way, to date, I've had no trouble getting the information. Some schools are notoriously slow and it has taken months for them to get around to answering, but they do answer.

In order to get the letter to the embassy/consulate for the non-immigrant B, I've had pretty good luck with a copy of the letter or email requesting the information. The reply they want before issuing the Work Permit.

[thomo]

Depends on what/where the school is too, doesn't it?

Government schools, especially in places like Isaan don't dig too deep and don't get any prob's from the man.

Language/International schools etc etc are far more likely to at least dig a little.

The closer to BKK, Phuket etc. the deeper.

From what I've heard.

[PeaceBlondie]

Scott, thanks for the information about how easily you can send emails to the alma mater of the applicant or new employee, even if it sometimes takes months to get a reply. But you're kind of an administrator from the West, fluent in English and in Western academic things. As thomo just stated, when you get out in the sticks or the boondocks, it ain't that easy. Chances are, it has to be done by Khun Sasamapacha, who finished M6 and is illiterate in English and farangspeak; or by Ajarn Wasanatakakakorn, who's too busy to learn how to use the computer that's virus ridden and slower than a sick snail.

I'm spending about ten minutes here myself, at the website of the uni I graduated from in 1882...well, it was a long, long time ago; the uni has changed its name thrice since I finished....and I haven't located the registrar function yet, and I know how to look! Let's see, registrar....11 pages of URL's using the search function...maybe Alumni Associaton....I think that Sasa and Wasana couldn't do it. How long does an average search take you, including writing the email in proper English? Could Sasa in the Thai school learn how to do it in less than 39 minutes, and do it right?

[mopenyang]

Please don't forget, that nobody is allowed to verify your degree without your written permission!!!!!

Universities are not allowed to give information regarding their former students without a written notice signed by the former student.

First of all, that's not true.

Even if it were, don't you think it might cause someone to start asking questions if an applicant for a job refused to permit his prospective employer to verify his academic record? Or at the very least, otherwise negatively affect the applicant's chances for employment?

Edited July 10, 2007 by mopenyang

[PeaceBlondie]

Good point, mopeynang. But let's say I want my Thai school to get verification from my alma mater. Where's the form I sign, that the uni back home will approve? I'm checking again, this time on my son's school, as if I were him or his new employer, and again, I can't find any clue as to where to look to find the format or the procedure. But I do find a way he could create a login ID and request copies of transcripts, to be sent to his employer. But I already have my transcripts, embossed and sealed in the envelope Do the folks who verify degrees know how to read transcripts? Do the unis accept faxes from Thailand of your handwritten attempt at authorizing the school to check your degree? At places like where perhaps you and Scott work, where 23 farang have been employed since the last time they changed office staff, it's doable. I worked at two 3,500 student schools that were over 75 years old, where nobody knew nothing.

[mopenyang]

It's fairly simple, really. Under "Degree Verification," you will find an example here:

http://www.furman.edu/registrar/records.html

Please note that anyone can request such information "unless specifically prohibited by the student."

Almost without exception, there is no reason a legitimate degree holder would want to prohibit a prospective employer from gaining such information or be unable to furnish same.

[Scott]

PB: Of course it might be quite difficult for some of the Thai folks upcountry to verify degrees. But it's their job and their responsibility--it's about ingenuity and utilizing resourcesl--not about any one person having all the skills.

The last couple of people I hired presented me with some interesting challenges:

A police clearance that was written in Korean (at least they said it was a police clearance), and a second one written in Chinese. I had to find someone to translate them.

A science teacher who graduated with a MA degree from a Japanese University. Definitely needed some assistance on getting that one verified.

These people are Thai, they may actually have to ask the Ministry for assistance (or someone else--even another teacher).

I've also run into schools that have changed their names (also gone out of business and been taken over by another school)--These are also challenging, but not necessarily impossible.

There will always be problems with these sorts of things and there will always be unique challenges. There is also the likelihood that someone will encounter a situation where it can't be done. Hey, if we start teaching Arabic and I have a teacher from Iraq--good chance that would be very difficult, maybe impossible--might have to ask for an exemption.

We (and the Thai folks) can't perform miracles. Only do what we are asked to do to the best of our ability.

[Momo8]

Scott a police clearance issued from China to a foreigner is in English/Chinese.

Called a "Notary Certificate of no Criminal Convictions" it is issued from the Public Security Bureau then it goes off to the Notary Office to be officially stamped.Very difficult to get one too,unless you have a record.Are you sure it's a real not a fake?

[Prakanong]

WRONG

If I knew your full name,your birthday,the university you attended and the YEAR you graduated I can check it right now....and this is information is on your CV remember.A written permission is needed if they want a transcript of academic records.Students who are enrolled and have graduated from any institution is public information.

Verifying online is very easy just contact the registrar and punch in the information.Go ahead and try it out by checking your own degree (if you have one)

Which countries are we talking about here?

Just asking as copies of my original documents have been sent back to a UK Uni recently so they can verify them with my previous UK Uni's for entrance to a MBA here in Singapore.

If they could just go online then why ask for originals?

PS: The MoM (Ministry of Manpower) in Singapore also wanted original certificates for my EP although they only verify a small % (samm but growing)

[Prakanong]

It's fairly simple, really. Under "Degree Verification," you will find an example here:

http://www.furman.edu/registrar/records.html

Please note that anyone can request such information "unless specifically prohibited by the student."

Almost without exception, there is no reason a legitimate degree holder would want to prohibit a prospective employer from gaining such information or be unable to furnish same.

Somebody paranoid about identity theft might???

[mopenyang]

It's fairly simple, really. Under "Degree Verification," you will find an example here:

http://www.furman.edu/registrar/records.html

Please note that anyone can request such information "unless specifically prohibited by the student."

Almost without exception, there is no reason a legitimate degree holder would want to prohibit a prospective employer from gaining such information or be unable to furnish same.

Somebody paranoid about identity theft might???

Not the employer's problem and something the applicant is going to have to come to terms with if he or she is serious about getting a lot of jobs these days.

[Scott]

Mopenyang: The police clearance was NOT in English and it was not for a farang. It was for a Chinese Teacher. It could be fake and I wouldn't know it--but I doubt that this lovely young lady has ever done anything remotely wrong in her life!

I think we have a couple of different issues going on. My basic position is that I check this stuff because I am required to check this stuff and get the paperwork together. I am not a police officer, investigator nor a specialist in fraudulent documents. When I interview someone and they present a degree to me, my assumption is that it is genuine. Unless the person is particularly inept or unskilled, I don't care to try to judge their documentation. It's hard enough trying to figure out if they will be a good teacher.

The MOE requires certain documents, so I do what I can to obtain them. A true con and a good con could outmanouver these requirements rather quickly and easily--although I would have to question why for the wages they get.

[Momo8]

Prak,I'm talking about Australia here but since we're tied to the mother land UK I assume it's the same.

You can go online to see the graduates in a particular year but can't get access to transcripts or documents.

[PeaceBlondie]

Okay, so the magic phrase on a google search within a uni website might be "degree verification." I tried that on the four uni websites I checked yesterday when I got nowhere. Only one worked, by taking me to www.studentclearinghouse.org , where I found countless (American) universities listed, including some that did not refer me to that clearing house on their own website. My alma mater is not listed, but its sister schools are. But after ten minutes there, I don't understand the process.

The clearinghouse process costs money, using a credit card (surely the cc of the applicant for the job in Thailand). The instructions for enrolling go on for 8 pages. Now, I have a limited attention span, and I don't do my critical thinking as incredibly well as I once did. But I don't think Khun Sasapacha has a long attention span, or is good at advanced critical thinking.

Another related point, for what it's worth: I have my original degree here, in its original mailing envelope, complete with real ink signatures of four officials, on 8.5x11 paper, which unfortunately is A4 size. But it's as authentic looking as it can be, on hard stock paper and a gold seal. I also have equally authentic original transcripts from the uni, still inside their sealed envelopes from the uni. Would that be good enough for Sasapacha, the MoE, and the MoL?

I apologize for getting wound up about a process that some Westerners assume is an easy walk in the park. Maybe it is easy-peasy. Yet, I cannot see how (outside of the schools in some metro areas that employ ten or more farang teachers) degrees can be verified, by Thais.

One of the sites (possibly my uni) commented that due to privacy rules, nothing could be verified by email.

[mopenyang]

It all comes down to what is eventually accepted as "verification." If it is something as simple as a letter sent directly from the university to the authority requesting the verification, then the easiest way to obtain it is to have the alleged graduate of the university send a letter (or required form) to the university asking for the required information and requesting that it be sent directly back to such and such a person at such and such a company or government agency. There are all kinds of variations of this process, but in my experience (on both sides of the fence) someone who has a legitimate degree has no real problem in obtaining verification of the degree even if it does seem to take too long on occasion.

Scott: I was talking about degree verification in general and not your specific problem.

Edited July 11, 2007 by mopenyang

[Scott]

PB: Sorry, I am really not trying to wind you up or get you excited. Yes, most rural schools would be a real bind trying to do this sort of stuff. My point is simply that it can be done.

In the end, I don't like doing this either because I am not really some kind of investigator. Personally, I think it should be the government officials who do this. It's a lot easier for the MOE to have a "verification branch" and they can decide what and who to check. Check everyone, check no one, check randomly, check every other applicant, check documents that look suspicious (whatever that means). Some lovely lass can sit and cut and past boiler plate language into letters or emails and away it goes.

In general, knowing that there is a chance the documents will get checked, will discourage the very vast majority of people. If they had their act together they would approve first and check at their leisure with a strong indictment that fraudulent document holders will be prosecuted.

I deal with this all the time, so I do some tricks--but not all of them.