Electricity Meter adding extra Kwh usage. Anybody had this issue and advice on what to do.

[jojothai]

I have a villa in Hua Hin with solar installation hybrid with a 10Kwh battery. This does me for all our needs except aircon overnight.
When PEA found out, they changed the meter to a new digital one, nearly a month ago.

The new meter is consistently adding 2Kwh per day up to 3Kwh, even when there is nobody at the house and I am not taking power from the grid.

 

I know the power produced, consumption, power purchased from grid, battery level, etc from the solar inverter and app.

I have had the solar installation since early December 2022 and records of parameters since then.
On the old PEA meter there was about 10 to 30 Kwh more electricity consumption reading from the monthly meter reading than from the inverter.
Over 6 months, It averaged 20 Kwh per month, and I was not concerned with. 
However now with the new  meter if there is an extra 2Kwh per day or more is 60+ Kwh per month , At 5 baht a Kwh that would be 300 + Baht per month.

I know that i can go to speak to PEA, but do not know what to expect. Has anybody had or know of a similar issue and what was done?
In western countries you can get an independent check done. If it shows extra then the electricity authority has to settle the issue and pay for the independent check.
But if the meter is found to be ok. then the consumer has to pay for the independent check.

I have no idea if there are any rights here concerning this issue. Probably not, but if anybody has knowledge i would be grateful to know.

 

According to thai websites, the meters provided to PEA are supposed to be accurate within certain tolerances.
I do not expect that should include for an extra 2 to 3Kwh per day.

Any advice welcome please.
I do not have anybody else tapping into my supply, there are 2 x 10 cable in and two 16 mmsq cable out to the house.
Meter shown in the attached image.

 

[Eff1n2ret]

I don't know if this is relevant to your case, but when I had solar installed 2.1/2 years ago, I noticed in the first month or so that my elec bill hadn't gone down at all. The reason was found to be the digital meter, which had been fitted a year or two before when a lightning strike blew out the original analogue box. The solar installers admitted that they hadn't thought to check the type of meter when they put the system in. I noticed that very sunny days registered a higher consumption rather than lower. There was a big pow-wow between the installers and PEA, who eventually fitted an analogue meter, problem solved. I don't understand enough about it to offer any explanation why the digital meter was incompatible with the solar installation.

[jojothai]

2 minutes ago, Eff1n2ret said:

There was a big pow-wow between the installers and PEA, who eventually fitted an analogue meter, problem solved. I don't understand enough about it to offer any explanation why the digital meter was incompatible with the solar installation.

Thanks, that's another potential avenue.
They fit the digital meter to prevent any reversing of the meter if you feed in to grid.
That happens with the normal meters.
I can ask if they have an analogue meter that does not reverse on feed in.
I have seen analogue meter on one of the nearby properties with solar and I was told that PEA had already changed it to prevent feed into grid.

[Crossy]

Are you actually exporting to the grid? If so, disable export.

 

Some digital meters have been reported as counting UP if the solar is exporting ????

 

I'm afraid I would trust the calibrated/certified PEA meter more than what your inverter is telling you.

 

EDIT Since you have a hybrid could you turn off the grid power whilst you are away just to verify the meter isn't "creeping"?

[jojothai]

28 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Are you actually exporting to the grid? If so, disable export.

 

Some digital meters have been reported as counting UP if the solar is exporting ????

 

I'm afraid I would trust the calibrated/certified PEA meter more than what your inverter is telling you.

 

EDIT Since you have a hybrid could you turn off the grid power whilst you are away just to verify the meter isn't "creeping"?

Thanks Crossy. Good to hear any suggestions that you have.
I am not exporting power to grid. It is switched off. I have rechecked.

The inverter has been measuring accurately against the previous meter for over 6 months with only a small creep averaging 20Kwh per month. 
That why i have to consider the new meter as a problem. It is measuring 2Kwh  and more a day when we are away from the house and there is negligible power being used from grid, my battery is fully charged all the time when away. Just went away 4 days and came back to find the meter has gone up 12 Kwh.

I have checked the daily graphs from the inverter for power purchased during each of the 4 days and there is some small power shown purchased during the day but negligible only in the order of 50 to 100 Watthours each day.

I have to check all the settings on the inverter to see if i can identify anything that would take power from the grid. I quickly looked and cannot see anything that should.
I am on "zero export to CT" and according to the manual power should not go back to the grid.

I will see if i can turn off power from the grid on the inverter for next time we are away from the house, likely next weekend. I cannot see anything obvious to do this. I can ask the installation company

[Crossy]

You should have a main breaker on your incoming grid supply which you can pull.

 

It is of course possible that your new meter is over-reading, I think PEA do offer a check-meter but you'll have to ask them.

 

We are still on a spinning meter. I have a separate "home brew" monitoring system that uses Hiking electronic meters. That agrees with the PEA meter to within 5-10kWh per month, the guestimate from the inverters is just way off, so far off that I've not actually bothered with it for a couple of years.

[jojothai]

3 minutes ago, jojothai said:

I will see if i can turn off power from the grid on the inverter for next time we are away from the house, likely next weekend. I cannot see anything obvious to do this. I can ask the installation company

I will also switch off all the breakers directly connected in the original distribution board (water heaters , air conditioners, hob and oven) and leave all the breakers on in the solar distribution board. However that should not make any difference.

[jojothai]

6 minutes ago, Crossy said:

You should have a main breaker on your incoming grid supply which you can pull.

 

It is of course possible that your new meter is over-reading, I think PEA do offer a check-meter but you'll have to ask them.

 

We are still on a spinning meter. I have a separate "home brew" monitoring system that uses Hiking electronic meters. That agrees with the PEA meter to within 5-10kWh per month, the guestimate from the inverters is just way off, so far off that I've not actually bothered with it for a couple of years.

Yes, the main breaker still provides to the other circuits I mentioned for airconditioner, water heaters.hob and oven.
all the other circuits go directly from the solar breaker panel.

I think i need to get them to take away the digital meter and put a spinning meter back, but one that does not reverse on feed in. They may want to check the digital meter first.

[Crossy]

2 minutes ago, jojothai said:

I think i need to get them to take away the digital meter and put a spinning meter back, but one that does not reverse on feed in. They may want to check the digital meter first.

 

Others have succeeded in this, so it can't hurt to ask.

 

Your inverter mains-in should be on a breaker from your main panel, opening that would ensure that you are guaranteed that nothing is going out and all your "solar" stuff is purely running on solar.

[gamb00ler]

What is the brand of your inverter?

 

I have a AlphaEss Smile T10-HV-INV inverter.  We are also set to NO EXPORT and have a digital meter.

 

However the software provided by Alpha ESS still shows a small amount of feed-in AKA export.  It amounts to about 2-4 KwH a month.  Coincidentally, our bill shows two meter readings each with a separate usage.  One of the usage figures closely matches what the AlphaESS software shows as our grid consumption and the other is about the same as our feed-in numbers.  Since the "extra" amount is so small I haven't bothered to yet go to PEA and get an explanation.

 

I have concluded that the extra reading is in fact a record of our export.

Edited July 25, 2023 by gamb00ler

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, gamb00ler said:

I have concluded that the extra reading is in fact a record of our export.

 

But you are being billed for it, yes??

 

[jojothai]

1 hour ago, gamb00ler said:

What is the brand of your inverter?

My inverter is Deye SUN-5K-SG03LP1-EU.
 

I see that you have a small export. After what you have said, and what Crossy said earlier I realize that i had not checked any export during the four days away.

i have just checked and the daily graphs show small amounts as "Feed in" totalling about 700 Watt hours a day.
This may be causing a problem with the digital meter as Crossy pointed out.
I have to figure out how to totally stop any feed in to see if it changes things.
Need to look at the inverter instructions. 

[BenStark]

Buy one of these and put it on the wire that goes to the house, then you know if the PEA meter adds anything

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/diymore-ac-50-300v-0-100a-power-energy-meter-kwh-ac-monitor-i3125367961-s11626606840.html?

[jojothai]

37 minutes ago, BenStark said:

Buy one of these and put it on the wire that goes to the house, then you know if the PEA meter adds anything

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/diymore-ac-50-300v-0-100a-power-energy-meter-kwh-ac-monitor-i3125367961-s11626606840.html?

Thanks, the price is not much. Good idea

[gamb00ler]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

But you are being billed for it, yes??

 

Yes, I am.  PEA adds the two usages and bills me for the total.  It's about 10-20 ฿ a month extra

[bluejets]

15 hours ago, jojothai said:

Any advice welcome please.

 Perhaps fit an older style check meter yourself.

Then show PEA

Best part of the old spinning disc is they do not lie........????

Edited July 25, 2023 by bluejets

[jojothai]

Thanks for the comments.

My solar installer had now responded and confirmed that the problem is normally from any feed in.
He has said that many clients are very angry because of the problem and insisting on more solar friendly meters that don’t double charge.

He has said that I should request a TOU meter and that should fix the problem.
They spin just like the old meter.
Have to request at PEA and pay for the TOU and changing the meter.
 

[UWEB]

1 hour ago, jojothai said:

Thanks for the comments.

My solar installer had now responded and confirmed that the problem is normally from any feed in.
He has said that many clients are very angry because of the problem and insisting on more solar friendly meters that don’t double charge.

He has said that I should request a TOU meter and that should fix the problem.
They spin just like the old meter.
Have to request at PEA and pay for the TOU and changing the meter.
 

TOU Meters are digital ones in this days, at least here in Prachuap.

[Crossy]

The correct solution is for PEA to configure their meters and billing software to simply ignore the "export" numbers.

 

Good luck with that ???? 

 

[jojothai]

56 minutes ago, UWEB said:

TOU Meters are digital ones in this days, at least here in Prachuap.

???? Hope they are not only digital here.
I saw this picture of a TOU meter online 

Edited July 26, 2023 by jojothai
add text

[Eff1n2ret]

2 hours ago, jojothai said:

Have to request at PEA and pay for the TOU and changing the meter.

When I had my problem (see above) the solar company put their hands up and admitted that they hadn't checked my type of meter when they did the installation, so they paid PEA to change it. Maybe yours will do the same?

[jojothai]

1 minute ago, Eff1n2ret said:

When I had my problem (see above) the solar company put their hands up and admitted that they hadn't checked my type of meter when they did the installation, so they paid PEA to change it. Maybe yours will do the same?

I had the original meter that was no problem. Nothing discussed or agreed concerning the meter.
So I will have to sort this out with PEA myself.
Its PEA in Hua Hin with their attitude to solar. They said that there was a problem with my consumption too low and came around to check. When they know I have solar, they insist to change the meter. 
Even if i have not been feeding back to grid.
My installers work countrywide and they say that most places have no problem. Its Hua Hin that stands out.
I am currently looking at getting the agreement to sell power to them, so that i can get money back.

[gamb00ler]

@JoJo Thai doesn't a TOU meter need two separate meter readings?  I can only see one on the picture you posted of a TOU meter with a spinning disk.

[Crossy]

4 minutes ago, gamb00ler said:

@JoJo Thai doesn't a TOU meter need two separate meter readings?  I can only see one on the picture you posted of a TOU meter with a spinning disk.

 

Yup, looks like a conventional single-tariff meter to me too.

 

Dual-tariff meters have two sets of numbers.

 

I couldn't find a photo of a Thai one, but this is an old UK E-7 meter.

 

 

[surat04]

TOU meter

[JBChiangRai]

The button on your meter will switch the reading between import & export.  That meter records both figures separately (try reading it yourself, IMP & EXP are displayed in very small letters), If you are only being charged 10-20 baht extra then I don't think they are charging you for your export (their import). There maybe a setting that totals the readings you don't want to leave that displayed.

 

I think your extra 2 KwHr's per day are parasitic loads from your inverter and possibly other devices.  An AVR will cause that and more.

Edited July 26, 2023 by JBChiangRai

[jojothai]

33 minutes ago, gamb00ler said:

@JoJo Thai doesn't a TOU meter need two separate meter readings?  I can only see one on the picture you posted of a TOU meter with a spinning disk.

I noticed but they were  saying it was a picture of A TOU. From the comments it must not be a TOU.
I will find out when i go and ask PEA what they have.
If there are only digital TOU then I may have the same problem with excess Kwh

The digital meter i currently have, has two sets of readings but is only counting on one.
So i assume it must be a TOU, but we have not yet registered for the service.
If the same meter will be used then I still have the problem.
I have to speak to a neighbour. He has solar and they changed the meter to stop feed in,
But his meter is still the old style with the rotating disc. 

I trust that I will find out better when I go to see PEA. However TIT ????

[jojothai]

8 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

The button on your meter will switch the reading between import & export.  That meter records both figures separately (try reading it yourself, IMP & EXP are displayed in very small letters), If you are only being charged 10-20 baht extra then I don't think they are charging you for your export (their import). There maybe a setting that totals the readings you don't want to leave that displayed.

 

I think your extra 2 KwHr's per day are parasitic loads from your inverter and possibly other devices.  An AVR will cause that and more.

understood thanks. I tried the button and it does not seem to do anything.
The meter automatically toggles between two readings, one is reading my consumption the other is zero.
From what i can see on the meter I guess that this may be a TOU meter.

[Crossy]

4 hours ago, jojothai said:

I noticed but they were  saying it was a picture of A TOU. From the comments it must not be a TOU.
I will find out when i go and ask PEA what they have.
If there are only digital TOU then I may have the same problem with excess Kwh

The digital meter i currently have, has two sets of readings but is only counting on one.
So i assume it must be a TOU, but we have not yet registered for the service.
If the same meter will be used then I still have the problem.
I have to speak to a neighbour. He has solar and they changed the meter to stop feed in,
But his meter is still the old style with the rotating disc. 

I trust that I will find out better when I go to see PEA. However TIT ????

 

Why not deliberately turn on export and see if the reading that's changing counts up? OK it will cost you a few Baht, but you have something to go to PEA with.

 

Digital meters can be whatever they're programmed to be. Conventional single-tariff, TOU, Export or both TOU and Export.

 

If you DO have TOU you will be being charged rather more for any daytime consumption than you were before.

[jojothai]

3 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Why not deliberately turn on export and see if the reading that's changing counts up? OK it will cost you a few Baht, but you have something to go to PEA with.

 

Digital meters can be whatever they're programmed to be. Conventional single-tariff, TOU, Export or both TOU and Export.

 

If you DO have TOU you will be being charged rather more for any daytime consumption than you were before.

Thanks Crossy,
The meter clearly has two measuring features and one is not being used at present. Zero from day 1.
The other is the one being measured. I now just have a bill to verify that. Bill only has the one reading charge.
I think my problem is that for some reason there is a small feed in from the inverter during the day.
In theory it should not be happening, but it is. When i look at the real time use on the app, i have seen the arrows  sometimes showing input to grid, negligible so I thought insignificant but that may not be the case. 

 

At present my strategy is to go to PEA and explain the problem. they must already know but probably will not admit it. Cannot go to PEA until about 07 august. have to be in BKK for work meetings each side of the Public Holidays,.
I will ask them what I can do to change the meter and what can I get. What about TOU?