Trump surrenders for historic fourth arrest

[ozimoron]

45 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

That would make it more difficult for anyone to rig the elections and it would also stop the accusations that the elections were rigged (in the future) and people don't exactly keep it a secret for whom they vote for 

Newsflash. Nobody cares about accusations until some proof is provided. Over 60 courts cases have proved that isn't likely to come anytime soon.

 

Show us where the secret ballot isn't widely popular.

Edited September 1, 2023 by ozimoron

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

Yeah, nah., I wouldn't want to be fired because my employer didn't like who I voted for.

That is why anonymous voting is popular.  People can vote in a manner that may upset their employer, their union, their church, their neighbors, their family, etc. without fear.

[TimeMachine]

1 hour ago, rudi49jr said:

So you’re a Trump supporter, and you’re for the little guy. Hmm, how does that work exactly? Are you sure that voting for Trump is good for the little guy? What has he done for the little guy during his presidency?

Remember, Trump is a self-proclaimed billionaire who went bankrupt five (six?) times, stiffing tens of thousands of small contractors (little guys) out of millions and millions of dollars. Trump also managed to run a casino into the ground. Do you know how hard that is? And this is the guy you want running your country?

And by the way, who are “the two mega rich guys squabbling” you mentioned in your post? I see one mega rich guy, Trump, or at least he keeps claiming that he is vastly wealthy. Who’s the other mega rich guy?

Got back from exercise.  Was ok.

 

Now. Think we are off track.  It seems people are rejecting my idea about open source voting because they think Im talking about that to side with Trump. Im siding with the small guy who wants his vote to count wether he votes for Biden or Trump.  In this case Biden wins so you all think I am attacking the voting system to back Trump.  Either way,  if next year Trump wins I will still have the same opinion.  The voting system is not trustable. I wont debate to death with anyone who is better to vote for.  Vote for who you like. 

I just so happen to think Trump can be a better option than Biden who should be in aged care.  Its disgusting he is being encouraged to stay as president despite his mental health issues.

 

I should be able to vote with confidence for who i choose and so should you if you disagree. 

 

So no need to debate about Trump and Biden.   Ill leave them to prove their own worth. But the idea that people dont want to be able to check voting for themselves is just a reaction to support the idea that the vote was not tampered with and Biden won fairly. 

 

Anonyminity is not a problem either way.  You can still be anon in an open source vote.  However if I want my fellow Americans to see my vote I dont have that option in the current system.

 

So forget about Trump and Biden. The idea you trust random members of the public to ensure your vote is handled correctly versus you having control over it.  Id much rather check myself. 

 

Why would you want to continue with the current system.  You can never convince people it is fair without them being able to check for themselves.  Trust us stuff doesnt work any more. 

 

 

[TimeMachine]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

You are assuming that currently anonymous votes can be changed without anyone knowing

I can't assume anything because I can't check anything.

 

Sorry the rest of your wording in yout post I didn't comprehend what you were getting at.  Maybe if you reword it I can try to put your mind at rest as to why open source voting is better than current system for peoples voting confidence

[Bkk Brian]

10 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

Got back from exercise.  Was ok.

 

Now. Think we are off track.  It seems people are rejecting my idea about open source voting because they think Im talking about that to side with Trump. Im siding with the small guy who wants his vote to count wether he votes for Biden or Trump.  In this case Biden wins so you all think I am attacking the voting system to back Trump.  Either way,  if next year Trump wins I will still have the same opinion.  The voting system is not trustable. I wont debate to death with anyone who is better to vote for.  Vote for who you like. 

I just so happen to think Trump can be a better option than Biden who should be in aged care.  Its disgusting he is being encouraged to stay as president despite his mental health issues.

 

I should be able to vote with confidence for who i choose and so should you if you disagree. 

 

So no need to debate about Trump and Biden.   Ill leave them to prove their own worth. But the idea that people dont want to be able to check voting for themselves is just a reaction to support the idea that the vote was not tampered with and Biden won fairly. 

 

Anonyminity is not a problem either way.  You can still be anon in an open source vote.  However if I want my fellow Americans to see my vote I dont have that option in the current system.

 

So forget about Trump and Biden. The idea you trust random members of the public to ensure your vote is handled correctly versus you having control over it.  Id much rather check myself. 

 

Why would you want to continue with the current system.  You can never convince people it is fair without them being able to check for themselves.  Trust us stuff doesnt work any more. 

 

 

You say this:

 

"So no need to debate about Trump and Biden.   Ill leave them to prove their own worth. But the idea that people dont want to be able to check voting for themselves is just a reaction to support the idea that the vote was not tampered with and Biden won fairly."

 

& yet you also state this:

 

"I just so happen to think Trump can be a better option than Biden who should be in aged care.  Its disgusting he is being encouraged to stay as president despite his mental health issues."

 

Which is it to be? Because I think you are wrong, I think its disgusting for Trump to be elected as President over Biden. Happy to name all the reasons but it seems you want to cancel that debate and keep it on your terms only.

 

[TimeMachine]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Good to know you trust the government with that information.

No. The information will be for everyone to see. 

[placeholder]

Just now, TimeMachine said:

No. The information will be for everyone to see. 

Including the government.

[TimeMachine]

5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

You say this:

 

"So no need to debate about Trump and Biden.   Ill leave them to prove their own worth. But the idea that people dont want to be able to check voting for themselves is just a reaction to support the idea that the vote was not tampered with and Biden won fairly."

 

& yet you also state this:

 

"I just so happen to think Trump can be a better option than Biden who should be in aged care.  Its disgusting he is being encouraged to stay as president despite his mental health issues."

 

Which is it to be? Because I think you are wrong, I think its disgusting for Trump to be elected as President over Biden. Happy to name all the reasons but it seems you want to cancel that debate and keep it on your terms only.

 

This is the take away.  Im here to support a free and open vote.  You can throw as much gotcha stuff about trump as you like. 

Stick to the voting questions.  Im happy to clear up any misunderstanding about the voting. 

 

[heybruce]

11 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

Got back from exercise.  Was ok.

 

Now. Think we are off track.  It seems people are rejecting my idea about open source voting because they think Im talking about that to side with Trump. Im siding with the small guy who wants his vote to count wether he votes for Biden or Trump.  In this case Biden wins so you all think I am attacking the voting system to back Trump.  Either way,  if next year Trump wins I will still have the same opinion.  The voting system is not trustable. I wont debate to death with anyone who is better to vote for.  Vote for who you like. 

I just so happen to think Trump can be a better option than Biden who should be in aged care.  Its disgusting he is being encouraged to stay as president despite his mental health issues.

 

I should be able to vote with confidence for who i choose and so should you if you disagree. 

 

So no need to debate about Trump and Biden.   Ill leave them to prove their own worth. But the idea that people dont want to be able to check voting for themselves is just a reaction to support the idea that the vote was not tampered with and Biden won fairly. 

 

Anonyminity is not a problem either way.  You can still be anon in an open source vote.  However if I want my fellow Americans to see my vote I dont have that option in the current system.

 

So forget about Trump and Biden. The idea you trust random members of the public to ensure your vote is handled correctly versus you having control over it.  Id much rather check myself. 

 

Why would you want to continue with the current system.  You can never convince people it is fair without them being able to check for themselves.  Trust us stuff doesnt work any more. 

 

 

I trust that every time I put ten gallons of gas in my truck I'm getting something close to ten gallons.  I trust that any business that was cheating would be caught and pay a heavy penalty.

 

In a similar manner I trust that any attempt at widespread cheating on a scale that would change a national election outcome would be found out and the penalties would be severe.  All attempts to show such widespread cheating have failed.  So I trust the election results are legitimate.

 

Abandoning anonymous voting would not make cheating impossible.  It would change the way cheating would have to be done, but it would still be possible. 

 

Every type of voting requires some element of trust.  It would be very difficult to cheat with electronic counting of votes from a well designed, independently verified system, but it's probably possible (don't ask me how, I haven't a clue).  Cheating with hand counting would also be possible, and would delay the election results by days, or much longer if there are challenges and recounts.  Such delays would leave ample opportunity to spread rumors/conspiracy theories about cheating.

 

No system is perfect.  However in absence of credible evidence that our current system is flawed, I prefer to stick with it.

[TimeMachine]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Including the government.

Yes,  except those who choose anon.  Information and passwords will be encrypted.  If you dont trust encryption then you better close down your internet real quick. 

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

No. The information will be for everyone to see. 

Lots of people have come to regret their public associations with various groups in their facebook and other profiles. Even a retweet can get you fired.

[TimeMachine]

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

I trust that every time I put ten gallons of gas in my truck I'm getting something close to ten gallons.  I trust that any business that was cheating would be caught and pay a heavy penalty.

 

In a similar manner I trust that any attempt at widespread cheating on a scale that would change a national election outcome would be found out and the penalties would be severe.  All attempts to show such widespread cheating have failed.  So I trust the election results are legitimate.

 

Abandoning anonymous voting would not make cheating impossible.  It would change the way cheating would have to be done, but it would still be possible. 

 

Every type of voting requires some element of trust.  It would be very difficult to cheat with electronic counting of votes from a well designed, independently verified system, but it's probably possible (don't ask me how, I haven't a clue).  Cheating with hand counting would also be possible, and would delay the election results by days, or much longer if there are challenges and recounts.  Such delays would leave ample opportunity to spread rumors/conspiracy theories about cheating.

 

No system is perfect.  However in absence of credible evidence that our current system is flawed, I prefer to stick with it.

I cant find a fault in your reasoning.  I would prefer a change myself. 

[placeholder]

26 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

Got back from exercise.  Was ok.

 

Now. Think we are off track.  It seems people are rejecting my idea about open source voting because they think Im talking about that to side with Trump. Im siding with the small guy who wants his vote to count wether he votes for Biden or Trump.  In this case Biden wins so you all think I am attacking the voting system to back Trump.  Either way,  if next year Trump wins I will still have the same opinion.  The voting system is not trustable. I wont debate to death with anyone who is better to vote for.  Vote for who you like. 

I just so happen to think Trump can be a better option than Biden who should be in aged care.  Its disgusting he is being encouraged to stay as president despite his mental health issues.

 

I should be able to vote with confidence for who i choose and so should you if you disagree. 

 

So no need to debate about Trump and Biden.   Ill leave them to prove their own worth. But the idea that people dont want to be able to check voting for themselves is just a reaction to support the idea that the vote was not tampered with and Biden won fairly. 

 

Anonyminity is not a problem either way.  You can still be anon in an open source vote.  However if I want my fellow Americans to see my vote I dont have that option in the current system.

 

So forget about Trump and Biden. The idea you trust random members of the public to ensure your vote is handled correctly versus you having control over it.  Id much rather check myself. 

 

Why would you want to continue with the current system.  You can never convince people it is fair without them being able to check for themselves.  Trust us stuff doesnt work any more. 

 

 

We're thinking that you're siding with Trump because apparently you believe that the results of the elections are legitimately in question.

[heybruce]

10 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

I can't assume anything because I can't check anything.

 

Sorry the rest of your wording in yout post I didn't comprehend what you were getting at.  Maybe if you reword it I can try to put your mind at rest as to why open source voting is better than current system for peoples voting confidence

In a system in which half the voters choose to make their vote known and half choose to vote anonymously, how will you verify the votes of those who choose to vote anonymously?

 

If you can't verify these votes, how do you have a system any different from now?

 

Is that easier to understand?

 

Even if 100% of votes have to be public, how do you prevent coercion before and during the vote and coercion of those doing the count?  What makes you think this open system is cheat-proof?

[TimeMachine]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

We're thinking that you're siding with Trump because apparently you believe that the results of the elections are legitimately in question.

Ive made it clear i thought that I don't know if voting was rigged or not because there is no way to check. 

 

I have an interest in knowing who will be the next president.  A vote is good way to decide rather than all out war. I just give my opinion on who i would like to see out of the two of them. Trump is no spectacular choice mind you. 

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

This is the take away.  Im here to support a free and open vote.  You can throw as much gotcha stuff about trump as you like. 

Stick to the voting questions.  Im happy to clear up any misunderstanding about the voting. 

 

Back to your opinion:

 

30 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

I just so happen to think Trump can be a better option than Biden who should be in aged care.  Its disgusting he is being encouraged to stay as president despite his mental health issues.

You are delusional in that thought, what makes you think Trump can be a better option? What has he offered aside from retribution, threats and false accusations, oh and pleas for donations to help his legal funds.

 

How can a rapist and racist with 91 criminal charges against him be a better option?

[placeholder]

Just now, TimeMachine said:

Ive made it clear i thought that I don't know if voting was rigged or not because there is no way to check. 

 

I have an interest in knowing who will be the next president.  A vote is good way to decide rather than all out war. I just give my opinion on who i would like to see out of the two of them. Trump is no spectacular choice mind you. 

That you say you don't know says it all. There was virtually no valid evidence of rigged voting. The Trump campaign hired 2 teams of forensic experts to look for such evidence. They came up nothing. Instead of proposing solutions for non-existent problems, why don't you investigate how voting systems work instead?

[placeholder]

36 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

I just so happen to think Trump can be a better option than Biden who should be in aged care.  Its disgusting he is being encouraged to stay as president despite his mental health issues.

You give away your real agenda with comments like this.

[TimeMachine]

6 minutes ago, heybruce said:

In a system in which half the voters choose to make their vote known and half choose to vote anonymously, how will you verify the votes of those who choose to vote anonymously?

 

If you can't verify these votes, how do you have a system any different from now?

 

Is that easier to understand?

 

Even if 100% of votes have to be public, how do you prevent coercion before and during the vote and coercion of those doing the count?  What makes you think this open system is cheat-proof?

I will not confirm the vote of the anon voter.  Each one will do that themselves. Of course those that dont care to check will not affect matters. Because there will be enough of  random sample checking to confirm if there are 

 discrepancies . Once a certain amount of discrepancies are found the count for that area can be called to do a revote and inveatigation with proof.  Glorious proof. 

[TimeMachine]

5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Back to your opinion:

 

You are delusional in that thought, what makes you think Trump can be a better option? What has he offered aside from retribution, threats and false accusations, oh and pleas for donations to help his legal funds.

 

How can a rapist and racist with 91 criminal charges against him be a better option?

Ok ok.  I give up with trump.  Haha.  He's a bad bad man.  Very bad.    I know.  But my voting opinions still stands. Clean up voting so nobody charges any more buildings.  Although.  Black and white proof that someone can check themaleves still my not be enough.  In which case.  I should drop the whole idea.  It doesnt matter. People go crazy regardless. 

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

 Clean up voting so nobody charges any more buildings.  

Sure. It was the voting system's fault. And not all the blatant lies told by Trump and his fellow travelers.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, TimeMachine said:

Ok ok.  I give up with trump.  Haha.  He's a bad bad man.  Very bad.    I know.  But my voting opinions still stands. Clean up voting so nobody charges any more buildings.  Although.  Black and white proof that someone can check themaleves still my not be enough.  In which case.  I should drop the whole idea.  It doesnt matter. People go crazy regardless. 

I can think of better words for him, the ones I highlighted were accurate but I suppose bad is good enough coming from you 

[TimeMachine]

12 minutes ago, placeholder said:

That you say you don't know says it all. There was virtually no valid evidence of rigged voting. The Trump campaign hired 2 teams of forensic experts to look for such evidence. They came up nothing. Instead of proposing solutions for non-existent problems, why don't you investigate how voting systems work instead?

Can you show me the evidence it was not rigged?

 Start with my single vote please. Can i see it.  Did it get counted and correctly?

[placeholder]

Just now, TimeMachine said:

Can you show me the evidence it was not rigged?

 Start with my single vote please. Can i see it.  Did it get counted and correctly?

Asking to prove a negative? Ridiculous. And you really blame the voting system for the attack on the Capitol? Remember how Trump pushed the claims that Obama was born in Kenya? And how many Republicans believed that lunacy?

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

Can you show me the evidence it was not rigged?

 Start with my single vote please. Can i see it.  Did it get counted and correctly?

That's not how it works, if you claim something is rigged then you need to find and deliver the evidence to the courts.

[heybruce]

4 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

Can you show me the evidence it was not rigged?

 Start with my single vote please. Can i see it.  Did it get counted and correctly?

"Can you show me the evidence it was not rigged?"

 

Can you show me evidence the Easter Bunny doesn't exist?  Proving a non-existence is impossible.

 

"Start with my single vote please. Can i see it.  Did it get counted and correctly?"

 

In absence of evidence to the contrary, you may safely assume it was counted correctly.

[placeholder]

39 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

No. The information will be for everyone to see. 

It's a loser of an idea anyway. Let's say people can choose to see their votes if they want to. What's to stop the government from creating fake votes? What would stop  stop Trump from claiming fake votes if he lost even if your system were in effect. Come to think of it, what what stop you? Could we prove that fake votes weren't created by the government?

Edited September 1, 2023 by placeholder

[heybruce]

12 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

I will not confirm the vote of the anon voter.  Each one will do that themselves. Of course those that dont care to check will not affect matters. Because there will be enough of  random sample checking to confirm if there are 

 discrepancies . Once a certain amount of discrepancies are found the count for that area can be called to do a revote and inveatigation with proof.  Glorious proof. 

And how would you design a system in which a record is kept of who the anonymous voter voted for that could only be checked by this anonymous voter?

[TimeMachine]

5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

That's not how it works, if you claim something is rigged then you need to find and deliver the evidence to the courts.

And there lies the problem.  How can you gather evidence when there is none. With an open system there will be evidence to support both sides. Nobody can complain and throw bottles then.  

[TimeMachine]

5 minutes ago, heybruce said:

"Can you show me the evidence it was not rigged?"

 

Can you show me evidence the Easter Bunny doesn't exist?  Proving a non-existence is impossible.

 

"Start with my single vote please. Can i see it.  Did it get counted and correctly?"

 

In absence of evidence to the contrary, you may safely assume it was counted correctly.

Open system will magically create the opportunity to find evidence. 

Isnt that great? Whats the downside?