Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[KannikaP]

14 minutes ago, ukrules said:

Apparently they want up to 35% more.

Only on the top part of your transfers/earnings.

As said before  000 to 150k = 0%    (Some say 190k for over 65s)

150 - 300k = 5%

300 - 500k = 10% and so on. Easily found online. 

[stat]

1 hour ago, Dogmatix said:

Another issue would be that farangs don't have unique family names like Thais.  So tracking down transactions by all the John Smiths who are tax residents might be challenging.  On the other hand, if you have a debit or credit card issued by your overseas bank that is already providing CRS data, it would be very easy for the bank to provide information on transactions, if the RD should ask for it.

CRS does not include transactional data. It entails sums of monies in accounts like max account balance,current account balance and interest received etc. It does NOT include how much you spend in Thailand vs how much you spend elsewhere. However Visa Thailand COULD be made to deliver the data (unlikely in the next years).

Edited October 10, 2023 by stat

[ukrules]

13 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Only on the top part of your transfers/earnings.

As said before  000 to 150k = 0%    (Some say 190k for over 65s)

150 - 300k = 5%

300 - 500k = 10% and so on. Easily found online. 

Hence the use of 'up to 35% more' - I send 100k Baht a month so 1.2 Million Baht a year as an absolute minimum.

 

This year I'm upgrading my Elite visa so that's an extra 500k Baht on top of this which is sitting in my account.

 

If I wanted to buy something like a house or car then I would need to send extra - that extra will be taxed at the highest rate.

 

I have 2 options at that stage, structure some kind of loan to get the money in, move to some other country for 6.5 months or just don't bother.

 

Right now I'm just not going to bother for a few years and lets see where the chips fall.

 

Also I'm not going to bring in that 100k a month, it will half starting January - I'll send the rest to the Mrs from the foreign bank and use up her allowance too.

 

I pay zero tax anywhere elso so for me it's simple, double tax treaties simply don't apply to me.

 

Also one other thing that most people seem not to have noticed, once you're resident in a country it can be hard to lose that status - this doesn't seem to be the case in Thailand at the moment.

 

For example in the UK you need to make a clean break and the rules are long and complex and they even average the number of days present in the country over a few years.

 

To make it so they can't be a UK resident even if they come for you that average needs to be below 15 days a year for 3 years.

 

If we can get away with just going to Cambodia, Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore, etc for 6.5 months then that is a loophole which many super wealthy Thais will use every few years.

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by ukrules

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, KannikaP said:

Only on the top part of your transfers/earnings.

As said before  000 to 150k = 0%    (Some say 190k for over 65s)

150 - 300k = 5%

300 - 500k = 10% and so on. Easily found online. 

The 190k is an over 65 year olds deduction that is separate and different from the first 150k of the tax tables which is zero rated for tax, for everyone. A 65+ year old person would be allowed a 60k personal care allowance, plus a 190k over 65 years old deduction, plus any other deductions for which they are eligible, eg health insurance premiums. The net of those things would then give a total which is then put to the tax tables, the first 150k is zero rated, the next 150k is taxed at 5%, and so on.

[stat]

28 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I will say that won't happen, current law cannot be made retroactive or pre-dated. As long as you comply with the law of the day, all will be well. If that law changes, comply with the law of the day and all will be well.

Again wrong. The law is the same, just the interpretation changed. Even that happened several times in a country like Germany where a court decision changed the interpretation of tax laws. Here it is even simpler as most people will have transmitted monies they have made as income in the same year and therefore have been taxable even under the old rule.

Edited October 10, 2023 by stat

[KannikaP]

1 minute ago, ukrules said:

Also I'm not going to bring in that 100k a year,

It was 100k A MONTH in your first sentence.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, ukrules said:

Hence the use of 'up to 35% more' - I send 100k Baht a month so 1.2 Million Baht a year.

 

If I wanted to buy something like a house or car then I would need to send extra - that extra will be taxed at the highest rate.

 

I have 2 options at that stage, structure some kind of loan to get the money in, move to some other country for 6.5 months or just don't bother.

 

Right now I'm just not going to bother for a few years and lets see where the chips fall.

 

Also I'm not going to bring in that 100k a year, it will half starting January - I'll send the rest to the Mrs from the foreign bank and use up her allowance too.

 

 

 

 

Er....Tax is not withheld from the transfer at the time it is received by the bank, the process is settled via a tax return at year end. 

[ukrules]

7 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

It was 100k A MONTH in your first sentence.

My mistake, I edited it. It is 100k a month as a minimum.

Sometimes I bring in far more due to lazyness, for example - I want to buy some crypto and keep the foreign bank from knowing about it - just send the money to Thailand and use a Thai crypto exchange - I won't be doing that any more either.

[ukrules]

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Er....Tax is not withheld from the transfer at the time it is received by the bank, the process is settled via a tax return at year end. 

Yes, I know how it works, I've been alive for over 50 years.

 

When you add up all those monthly payments that's what you put on the form for remittance.

 

Your point?

 

I worked out that sending just 50k a month to an account results in a very small tax amount per year - like 20k per person - I can live with that.

Edited October 10, 2023 by ukrules

[KannikaP]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The 190k is an over 65 year olds deduction that is separate and different from the first 150k of the tax tables which is zero rated for tax, for everyone. A 65+ year old person would be allowed a 60k personal care allowance, plus a 190k over 65 years old deduction, plus any other deductions for which they are eligible, eg health insurance premiums. The net of those things would then give a total which is then put to the tax tables, the first 150k is zero rated, the next 150k is taxed at 5%, and so on.

That is very good to know. So 60k per month to the Mrs for looking after/putting up with me, plus 190k for simply being over 65, totalling 250k. Which will then be deducted from say 65k per month = 780k, So tax should be paid on 530k.

150 @ 0%, next 150 @ 5% (7500) then up to 10% on up to 500k (5000) and 15% 0n the last 30k = 4500. Total tax is 17k, or say 1500 per month on 65,000.

Or is my O level maths not correct?

[Mike Lister]

Just now, ukrules said:

Yes, I know how it works, I've been alive for over 50 years.

 

When you add up all those monthly payments that's what you put on the form for remittance.

 

Your point? I worked out that sending just 50k a month an account results in a very small tax amount per year - like 20k per person - I can live with that.

I didn't know what you know and don't know, unlike some posters who know what everyone thinks and believes. It's just that there are posters who seem to think that banks will deduct tax in that way.

[Lorry]

10 minutes ago, stat said:

Again wrong. The law is the same, just the interpretation changed. Even that happened several times in a country like Germany where a court decision changed the interpretation of tax laws. Here it is even simpler as most people will have transmitted monies they have made as income in the same year and therefore have been taxable even under the old rule.

All correct. 

And of course, any law can be retroactive. Happens all of the time.

Example: statute of limitations for all kinds of sexual offences in many Western countries. 

[StayinThailand2much]

22 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Er....Tax is not withheld from the transfer at the time it is received by the bank, the process is settled via a tax return at year end. 

If so, they would need to force, basically, everyone (tax-resident) in Thailand to file a tax return. And, as this is, supposedly, not just aimed at foreigners, every Thai citizen (but also every tourist who enters 3x a year visa-free, and extends their visa each time) would need to do it too - which just won't happen...

Edited October 10, 2023 by StayinThailand2much

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

That is very good to know. So 60k per month to the Mrs for looking after/putting up with me, plus 190k for simply being over 65, totalling 250k. Which will then be deducted from say 65k per month = 780k, So tax should be paid on 530k.

150 @ 0%, next 150 @ 5% (7500) then up to 10% on up to 500k (5000) and 15% 0n the last 30k = 4500. Total tax is 17k, or say 1500 per month on 65,000.

Or is my O level maths not correct?

Both you and your missus are allowed the 60K each, assuming she doesn't file her own return. That's 120k, plus 190k for being alive over age 65, equals 310k.  From your 780k income, deduct 150k which is zero rated, leaves 630k to be taxed....I think! 

[ukrules]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I didn't know what you know and don't know, unlike some posters who know what everyone thinks and believes. It's just that there are posters who seem to think that banks will deduct tax in that way.

Oh yes, I've looked into this in some detail.

 

Using the UOB tax calculator if you put in 50k Baht a month (600k gross / year) you end up with a tax amount of 21,500 a year for both me and the Mrs. Same amount in total, 41k total tax

 

As there are zero deductions due to the completely untaxed status of my funds then I suspect it will be quite a simple form to fill out.

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, StayinThailand2much said:

If so, they would need to force, basically, everyone (tax-resident) in Thailand to file a tax return.

Which is done online and is easy enough to do. The country will probably get to that point one day, or close to, I think. 

[KannikaP]

Just now, Lorry said:

Yes.

Rule of thumb: for 65000 Baht monthly reckon several thousand USD tax per year.

No, you are taxed in Thailand on what BAHT you transfer to the country, nothing to do with USD or exchange rates.

My calculations quite rightly shows that for an over 65 year old, they should pay

Bht 17000 on 65,000 per month.

[ukrules]

1 minute ago, Lorry said:

Yes.

Rule of thumb: for 65000 Baht monthly reckon several thousand USD tax per year.

I guess this is where the Elite visa comes in useful as I don't need to send any money each year at all.

 

When doing the 6.5 months abroad to gain non residency during a single year I could send in enough money to cover all costs for many years to come once the conditions are right.

 

[ukrules]

1 minute ago, KannikaP said:

My calculations quite rightly shows that for an over 65 year old, they should pay

Bht 17000 on 65,000 per month.

17k a year on 65k Baht a month?

[KannikaP]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Both you and your missus are allowed the 60K each, assuming she doesn't file her own return. That's 120k, plus 190k for being alive over age 65, equals 310k.  From your 780k income, deduct 150k which is zero rated, leaves 630k to be taxed....I think! 

My Mrs is only 54. so no allowance for her. 

[Lorry]

26 minutes ago, stat said:

Then live in those countries in the west and pay the tax and stop promoting socialism in other countries. Enough countries in the world that have IMHO a better approach to taxation then the european countries.

Your liberal usage of the word socialism shows you have no idea what socialism really is about. 

 

But we don't want to discuss this here.

It's ok to parachute into Thailand when 65, complain that the infrastructure - paid by Thais - is not up to European standards but refusing to pay tax here?

I know it's not you (at least not on this forum) but many people I know are like this.

I don't pay a lot of tax here - and don't want to - ,  but I don't expect a lot from the Thai government, either. 

 

[Mike Lister]

I've filed returns for the past two years. I receive UK State pension which is potentially taxable and US SSC payments that are excluded by treaty. The amount of tax you have to pay depends not just on the amount but also the source of funds. In my case, I can get to 59, 835 per month tax free. If I want to go to 72,800 per month, it costs me 13,000 in tax which is in the 5% band.

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

My Mrs is only 54. so no allowance for her. 

Your missus is still entitled to the 60K personal care allowance, everyone is. 

[StayinThailand2much]

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Which is done online and is easy enough to do. The country will probably get to that point one day, or close to, I think. 

LOL. Let's hope such website works better than, say, Immigration websites...

[Mike Lister]

Just now, StayinThailand2much said:

LOL. Let's hope such website works better than, say, Immigration websites...

It does, but it's all in Thai.

[Lorry]

I didn't post anything here.

???

Edited October 10, 2023 by Lorry

[KannikaP]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Your missus is still entitled to the 60K personal care allowance, everyone is. 

Sorry, but let me get it right. Everybody! gets a 60k Personal Care Allowance? Even if they are not caring or being cared for. That is TAXFREE. And then the 0%, 5%,!0% etc bands come into play. Yeh?

[Mike Lister]

Just now, KannikaP said:

Sorry, but let me get it right. Everybody! gets a 60k Personal Care Allowance? Even if they are not caring or being cared for. That is TAXFREE. And then the 0%, 5%,!0% etc bands come into play. Yeh?

Yes, read these two pages.

https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html

 

https://sherrings.com/personal-income-tax-rates-thailand.html

[KannikaP]

35 minutes ago, ukrules said:

17k a year on 65k Baht a month?

Well you show me your calculations please.

[ukrules]

19 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Well you show me your calculations please.

I just entered a monthly amount into the UOB calculator which is available here

 

UOB tax calculator : https://www.uobam.co.th/en/tax-calculation

 

Maybe there's some allowances I missed but we're like 45/50 years old so I doubt there's much.