How are you liking your days without enough immigrant labor, Florida?

 

The demagoguery of political leaders has consequences — and as draconian state immigration laws take effect and are enforced in the state, employers are learning just how good they had it before Gov. Ron DeSantis anointed himself border czar.

A South Florida no-party-affiliation voter tells me a story that perfectly illustrates business owners’ predicament in a state once a sanctuary for the undocumented, and now imposing one of the strictest anti-immigrant laws in the nation.

He needs to remodel his home’s entire irrigation system, a big job, but the owner of the company he has contracted — a die-hard supporter of brothers-in-prejudice former President Trump and DeSantis — can’t get the job done.

 

Two reasons for the drama: He has lost almost all of his long-time employers to E-verify, which forces him to send for governmental review the immigration status of his employees — or face punishment that can escalate from a $500 civil fine to jail time for repeat offenders.

Before the Florida Legislature, at DeSantis’ behest, passed the laws that severely punish people who hire, drive or assist undocumented immigrants, the irrigation contractor was simply doing what a lot of agricultural, service and construction businesses do: ignoring the immigration status of his laborers.

Looking the other way. Getting jobs done.

 

FULL STORY

 

Duh Santis strikes again.

The US birth rate is 1.64 , to replace all those who die it would need a replacement birth rate of 2.1.

  Most countries in the world are faced with a similar problem of a declining and aging population. 

  The US had so far, the advantage over other countries that it is considered to be a desirable destination to immigrate too.

Florida's birth rate is below the national average partly because it is a retirement destination with a large percentage of people past their reproductive age.  

The US is shooting itself on the foot with all these Immigration demagoguery from the right,  , And Florida in particular being a republican dominated state. 

  

Edited September 23, 20232 yr by sirineou

Winter is coming, when the freezing northern part of the 48 and Canada depends on the southern for all sorts of produce.  This idea that the migrants will forsake DeSantisland has been around since spring, maybe now we'll see.

 

Well bobble head Ron has had his rear kicked by Mickey Mouse now he’s wrecking the Florida agriculture industry didn't Disney pull out costing Florida 2 billion a while back I wonder what this is going to cost with the loss of agricultural revenue not to mention all the folks that will be driven out of business losing the farm 

Well, do you have to give him some sort of credit for pulling a stunt that's going to hurt citizens and businesses of Florida. There's a lot of repair work necessary to recover from the last hurricane. And, apparently, a lot less workers to get the job done.

Anyway, it's going to be a useful object lesson on how much of the US economy actually depends on undocumented aliens.

Him and DT have the same presidential election platform: "Because I WANT TO BE PRESIDENT!"  Not much to discuss there, nothing to clarify, nothing hidden.

 

4 hours ago, sirineou said:

The US birth rate is 1.64 , to replace all those who die it would need a replacement birth rate of 2.1.

......

The US is shooting itself on the foot with all these Immigration demagoguery from the right,  , And Florida in particular being a republican dominated state.   

I don't guess it hurts that they're importing millions of future voters whose demographic has demonstrated a tendency to vote Blue...  Instead of taking their chances with immigrants of a much higher education level and earning capability from, for example, Thailand.  Or Malaysia.  Or India.  Or the Phils.  But they'd probably be more likely to vote Red, and we can't have that.

 

If the USA has a population problem, wouldn't it make more sense to open up and let in a lot more college educated and/or highly skilled people, even if we had to pay the $750 airfare to get them in?  That's a whole lot cheaper than the $2000+ a month we're paying in bennies for families with no specialized skills and likely to stay on the dole for a looooong time.

 

I'm all for increasing legal immigration.  But the US is attractive enough that we can be very selective about who qualifies.  And still get millions of highly skilled people who would give their eyeteeth to come.  Or we can throw the southern border wide open and let just anyone in.

 

Edited September 23, 20232 yr by impulse

The hypocrisy is incredible.  The employers vote for anti-immigrant candidates then acted shocked when one of the candidates actually implements anti-immigrant measures. 

 

"And he’s not alone bad-mouthing the governor — and still singing the praises of Trump, who he feels understands him better because he, too, hires foreign workers to operate his resorts, condo towers and golf courses."

 

Apparently they think every anti-immigrant candidate should talk big but continue to allow the employment of illegals.  For the most part, the assumption has been correct.  Clearly they hate it when they get what they voted for.

2 hours ago, impulse said:

I don't guess it hurts that they're importing millions of future voters whose demographic has demonstrated a tendency to vote Blue...

If republicans did not sell out to their "base" and instead made decisions based on human decency and the republicanism of Abraham Lincoln , they could also get  their fare share of the vote of that "demographic"

 

2 hours ago, impulse said:

Instead of taking their chances with immigrants of a much higher education level

Because we all know that there is nothing that immigrants of a much higher ducatoon level  Love, than the honest work of picking produce ,cutting grass. and the carefree life of the migrant worker  ????

2 hours ago, impulse said:

Thailand.  Or Malaysia.  Or India.  Or the Phils.  But they'd probably be more likely to vote Red, and we can't have that.

ASIANS VOTE PREDOMINANTLY DEMOCRATIC . !!!!  

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/05/25/asian-voters-in-the-u-s-tend-to-be-democratic-but-vietnamese-american-voters-are-an-exception/#:~:text=Asian voters in the U.S.,American voters are an exception&text=About half of Vietnamese American,groups in the United States.

 

As to the rest of your editorializing ,

Please refer to my comment concerning Educated immigrants picking fruit, With the  additional question,

                Why can't we have both? as indeed we do!!

 

Edited September 23, 20232 yr by sirineou

An off-topic post has been removed please see our  Community Standards .

3 hours ago, impulse said:

I don't guess it hurts that they're importing millions of future voters whose demographic has demonstrated a tendency to vote Blue...  Instead of taking their chances with immigrants of a much higher education level and earning capability from, for example, Thailand.  Or Malaysia.  Or India.  Or the Phils.  But they'd probably be more likely to vote Red, and we can't have that.

 

If the USA has a population problem, wouldn't it make more sense to open up and let in a lot more college educated and/or highly skilled people, even if we had to pay the $750 airfare to get them in?  That's a whole lot cheaper than the $2000+ a month we're paying in bennies for families with no specialized skills and likely to stay on the dole for a looooong time.

 

I'm all for increasing legal immigration.  But the US is attractive enough that we can be very selective about who qualifies.  And still get millions of highly skilled people who would give their eyeteeth to come.  Or we can throw the southern border wide open and let just anyone in.

 

"If the USA has a population problem, wouldn't it make more sense to open up and let in a lot more college educated and/or highly skilled people, even if we had to pay the $750 airfare to get them in?"

 

Yes!  Yes!  Yes!  It would make perfect sense!

 

You know what would make even more perfect sense?  To greatly expand immigration for all skill levels!  The best, brightest, most ambitious and hardest working people all over the world want to come to the US to work.  That would not only grow our economy, increase our tax base and alleviate retirement funding problems, it would remove the incentive to come to the country illegally.  Why enter illegally if one can do so legally?

 

We have an incredible opportunity and we are wasting it.  It used to be the Democrats who resisted increasing legal immigration, but the Republicans have taken the lead and made the subject so toxic that no party or candidate is calling for it.  The OP is making it clear that the people crying "Oh my god, immigrants!" want those immigrants available when there is work to be done.  It's insane.

 

Can I assume you are not one of those paranoid types panicking about "diluting" American culture with brown people from "sh*thole countries"?  Because there are a lot of them, and the most passionate ones seem to be MAGA people.

 

Edited September 23, 20232 yr by heybruce

I find it interesting that the people who want to impeach President Biden for the situation at the border with Mexico have nothing to say about this topic.  

 

It's not surprising, the article identifies the hypocrisy of the anti-immigrant crowd, but interesting and informative.

On 9/23/2023 at 8:50 AM, impulse said:

I don't guess it hurts that they're importing millions of future voters whose demographic has demonstrated a tendency to vote Blue...  Instead of taking their chances with immigrants of a much higher education level and earning capability from, for example, Thailand.  Or Malaysia.  Or India.  Or the Phils.  But they'd probably be more likely to vote Red, and we can't have that.

 

If the USA has a population problem, wouldn't it make more sense to open up and let in a lot more college educated and/or highly skilled people, even if we had to pay the $750 airfare to get them in?  That's a whole lot cheaper than the $2000+ a month we're paying in bennies for families with no specialized skills and likely to stay on the dole for a looooong time.

 

I'm all for increasing legal immigration.  But the US is attractive enough that we can be very selective about who qualifies.  And still get millions of highly skilled people who would give their eyeteeth to come.  Or we can throw the southern border wide open and let just anyone in.

 

The cohesion of the U.S. social system (despite a very competitive work environment) has always relied on the following:

- the latest wave of immigration usually starts with small jobs,

- it allows the previous waves (or their children) to go up the social ladder (I.e. they become supervisors, open businesses, study, etc...),

- then a new wave arrives and takes the small jobs, etc...

2 hours ago, candide said:

The cohesion of the U.S. social system (despite a very competitive work environment) has always relied on the following:

- the latest wave of immigration usually starts with small jobs,

- it allows the previous waves (or their children) to go up the social ladder (I.e. they become supervisors, open businesses, study, etc...),

- then a new wave arrives and takes the small jobs, etc...

Spot on it’s what I’ve witnessed it’s also one of the bedrock things that makes me proud of my country it is also (the horror)exactly what makes America great ???? 

The idea of illegal immigrants doing the "stoop labour", as another poster put it, is a myth. They make up less than a third of agricultural workers in the US, and far less in other kinds of labour. There are millions of Americans who are choosing to sit on the sidelines and collect a cheque from Uncle Sugar. They need to be given incentive to get back into the workforce. 

16 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

The idea of illegal immigrants doing the "stoop labour", as another poster put it, is a myth. They make up less than a third of agricultural workers in the US, and far less in other kinds of labour. There are millions of Americans who are choosing to sit on the sidelines and collect a cheque from Uncle Sugar. They need to be given incentive to get back into the workforce. 

Yet, if the legal immigrants (who may have been illegal previously), are added, It's nearly 50% and more for crop agriculture (57%).

It also depends which type of agriculture (product and type of farm) and where.

"In many states where agriculture is especially important, immigrants make up even larger shares of the farm workforce. In California, immigrants make up more than 80 percent of the state’s agricultural workforce. Other states like, Washington State (72.6%), Florida (65.4%), and Oregon (60.7%), also have higher than average shares of immigrants in their agricultural workforce."

(To compare with 16.5% in Minesota)

 

https://research.newamericaneconomy.org/report/immigration-and-agriculture/

3 minutes ago, candide said:

Yet, if the legal immigrants (who may have been illegal previously), are added, It's nearly 50% and more for crop agriculture (57%).

It also depends which type of agriculture (product and type of farm) and where.

"In many states where agriculture is especially important, immigrants make up even larger shares of the farm workforce. In California, immigrants make up more than 80 percent of the state’s agricultural workforce. Other states like, Washington State (72.6%), Florida (65.4%), and Oregon (60.7%), also have higher than average shares of immigrants in their agricultural workforce."

(To compare with 16.5% in Minesota)

 

https://research.newamericaneconomy.org/report/immigration-and-agriculture/

True, but you have to distinguish between legal residents and illegal immigrants. Nothing wrong with expanding visa programmes to get more workers IMHO, as long as it is regulated and the workers are vetted. But letting thousands of people pour over the border every day is not a solution to America's labour market woes.  

Think about poor New York City, where it costs upwards of $300 per night to feed and house illegal immigrants in hotels across the city.  That adds up to 8-9000 bucks per month per family that are in the system. I am sure that regular Americans who are down on their luck would LOVE to be treated that way. 

On 9/23/2023 at 4:54 PM, heybruce said:

"If the USA has a population problem, wouldn't it make more sense to open up and let in a lot more college educated and/or highly skilled people, even if we had to pay the $750 airfare to get them in?"

 

Yes!  Yes!  Yes!  It would make perfect sense!

 

You know what would make even more perfect sense?  To greatly expand immigration for all skill levels!  The best, brightest, most ambitious and hardest working people all over the world want to come to the US to work.  That would not only grow our economy, increase our tax base and alleviate retirement funding problems, it would remove the incentive to come to the country illegally.  Why enter illegally if one can do so legally?

 

We have an incredible opportunity and we are wasting it.  It used to be the Democrats who resisted increasing legal immigration, but the Republicans have taken the lead and made the subject so toxic that no party or candidate is calling for it.  The OP is making it clear that the people crying "Oh my god, immigrants!" want those immigrants available when there is work to be done.  It's insane.

 

Can I assume you are not one of those paranoid types panicking about "diluting" American culture with brown people from "sh*thole countries"?  Because there are a lot of them, and the most passionate ones seem to be MAGA people.

 

Good luck with your yard work.

40 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

The idea of illegal immigrants doing the "stoop labour", as another poster put it, is a myth. They make up less than a third of agricultural workers in the US, and far less in other kinds of labour. There are millions of Americans who are choosing to sit on the sidelines and collect a cheque from Uncle Sugar. They need to be giv

I think part of that incentive would be to offer a living wage for those jobs.  The cost of the labor component of food production probably pales in comparison with the cost of land, cost of seed, cost of fertilizer, cost of farm implements, cost of water, cost of trucking, cost of retailing, and profit percentage.  I suspect doubling the picking wages would add less than 10% on the cost of a carrot.  (I stand to be corrected on that by someone with one of their quick links)

 

But as long as we're letting thousands of potential cheap labor in every day, what's the chances that's going to happen?  Competing with people who have never made over $10 a day in their lives is a non starter for most Americans.  And I don't blame them.

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Good luck with your yard work.

I do my own.  Also cut my neighbors on both sides.  Good exercise and neighborly relations.  (That's when I'm not in China like I'm stuck right now for personal reasons).

 

Edit:  I hired a buddy of mine, originally from Wisconsin (with a complexion to match) to cut it in my absence.

 

Edited September 26, 20232 yr by impulse

17 minutes ago, impulse said:

I do my own.  Also cut my neighbors on both sides.  Good exercise and neighborly relations.  (That's when I'm not in China like I'm stuck right now for personal reasons).

 

Edit:  I hired a buddy of mine, originally from Wisconsin (with a complexion to match) to cut it in my absence.

 

Good for you.

 

But don’t get to pretending Immigrants are doing the grunt work across agriculture, industry, the construction industry and private home contracting.

 

Get up and about at 5am in any American town or city and the folk you see heading out to work are largely immigrants.

 

 

18 minutes ago, impulse said:

I think part of that incentive would be to offer a living wage for those jobs.  The cost of the labor component of food production probably pales in comparison with the cost of land, cost of seed, cost of fertilizer, cost of farm implements, cost of water, cost of trucking, cost of retailing, and profit percentage.  I suspect doubling the picking wages would add less than 10% on the cost of a carrot.  (I stand to be corrected on that by someone with one of their quick links)

 

But as long as we're letting thousands of potential cheap labor in every day, what's the chances that's going to happen?  Competing with people who have never made over $10 a day in their lives is a non starter for most Americans.  And I don't blame them.

You are close to correct. According to this study, about 10% of the cost of agricultural products is labor. So, a $3 head of lettuce includes 30 cents of labour.

 

https://www.epi.org/blog/how-much-would-it-cost-consumers-to-give-farmworkers-a-significant-raise-a-40-increase-in-pay-would-cost-just-25-per-household/

 

So, we could even double the pay for ag workers and still only increase the price of fresh foods by 10%. Doubling the pay would be a great incentive to get people working, even in tough jobs like these. And, for the average family, that would cost about an extra $60 per year on their grocery bill, or $5 a month. And for that extra money, they could be assured that their food was harvested by legal workers who were fully protected by labour laws and not exploited.

 

A small price to pay for such a noble goal.

 

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

The idea of illegal immigrants doing the "stoop labour", as another poster put it, is a myth. They make up less than a third of agricultural workers in the US, and far less in other kinds of labour. There are millions of Americans who are choosing to sit on the sidelines and collect a cheque from Uncle Sugar. They need to be given incentive to get back into the workforce. 

Exact numbers are difficult to come by, but "less than a third" is a ridiculous underestimate.

 

"As recently as 2019, almost half—or 48.9 percent—of all agricultural workers were foreign-born and more than one-fourth (27.3 percent) were undocumented. Among workers in crop production, the share of foreign-born workers is even higher. In 2019, almost 57 percent of crop production workers were immigrants, including 36.4 percent who were undocumented."  https://research.newamericaneconomy.org/report/immigration-and-agriculture/

 

"Immigrant farmworkers make up an estimated 73% of agriculture workers in the United States. Farm labor is absolutely essential work that puts food on our tables across the country, powers the economy and supports our communities, from dairy farms in Wisconsin to strawberry fields in Florida and apple orchards in Washington. All together, food and agriculture sector is a $1.053 trillion industry.^{"  https://www.fwd.us/news/immigrant-farmworkers-and-americas-food-production-5-things-to-know/}

 

^{Why do you have such an aversion to providing sources for your claims?}

Edited September 26, 20232 yr by heybruce

1 minute ago, heybruce said:

Exact numbers are difficult to come by, but "less than a third" is a ridiculous underestimate.

 

"As recently as 2019, almost half—or 48.9 percent—of all agricultural workers were foreign-born and more than one-fourth (27.3 percent) were undocumented. Among workers in crop production, the share of foreign-born workers is even higher. In 2019, almost 57 percent of crop production workers were immigrants, including 36.4 percent who were undocumented."  https://research.newamericaneconomy.org/report/immigration-and-agriculture/

 

"Immigrant farmworkers make up an estimated 73% of agriculture workers in the United States. Farm labor is absolutely essential work that puts food on our tables across the country, powers the economy and supports our communities, from dairy farms in Wisconsin to strawberry fields in Florida and apple orchards in Washington. All together, food and agriculture sector is a $1.053 trillion industry.^{"  https://www.fwd.us/news/immigrant-farmworkers-and-americas-food-production-5-things-to-know/}

 

^{Why do you have such an aversion to providing sources for your claims?}

Thank you for proving my point. I said, "less than a third of farm workers are illegal immigrants". Your link said 27% of all ag workers are undocumented. So I was erring in the wrong direction by overestimating.  Sorry about that...

23 minutes ago, impulse said:

I think part of that incentive would be to offer a living wage for those jobs.  The cost of the labor component of food production probably pales in comparison with the cost of land, cost of seed, cost of fertilizer, cost of farm implements, cost of water, cost of trucking, cost of retailing, and profit percentage.  I suspect doubling the picking wages would add less than 10% on the cost of a carrot.  (I stand to be corrected on that by someone with one of their quick links)

 

But as long as we're letting thousands of potential cheap labor in every day, what's the chances that's going to happen?  Competing with people who have never made over $10 a day in their lives is a non starter for most Americans.  And I don't blame them.

Will you stop with the speculation and do a little research before posting? 

 

"Farmers have been struggling to fill these positions; in 2019, 56% of California farmers reported being unable to find all the workers they needed over the last five years.

This is partly because, even when wages and benefits are increased, there are still not enough U.S. citizens applying."  https://www.fwd.us/news/immigrant-farmworkers-and-americas-food-production-5-things-to-know/

 

"According to data from the 2017 Census of Agriculture, wages and salaries plus contract labor costs represented just 12 percent of production expenses for all farms, but 43 percent for greenhouse and nursery operations and 39 percent for fruit and tree nut operations."  https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor

5 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Thank you for proving my point. I said, "less than a third of farm workers are illegal immigrants". Your link said 27% of all ag workers are undocumented. So I was erring in the wrong direction by overestimating.  Sorry about that...

And that 27% is clearly not enough, since farmers still can't find enough workers.

 

Also, one source puts the foreign born at 49%, the other at 73%.  I suspect the difference is in how seasonal workers are counted.

Edited September 26, 20232 yr by heybruce

Hmm ... 

... the law makes it hard for criminal to live in the state

... the law makes employers offer a decent wage to those law abiding USA citizens that need, want to work at a fair salary.

 

Law was passed by and for USA citizens of FL for 'their' protection.

 

Maybe we should ignore all the gun & drug laws.   Oh wait, I think many states have, and how has that turned out?

 

Maybe FL can lower the price of goods stolen to be considered a felony, down to a misdemeanor.   How's that worked out California and other states?

 

If you don't want to enforce the laws, don't make them or repeal them.

 

Apparently those that care & vote, like it just the way it is.  If you don't live in FL, why do you care?

Edited September 26, 20232 yr by KhunLA

11 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

You are close to correct. According to this study, about 10% of the cost of agricultural products is labor. So, a $3 head of lettuce includes 30 cents of labour.

 

https://www.epi.org/blog/how-much-would-it-cost-consumers-to-give-farmworkers-a-significant-raise-a-40-increase-in-pay-would-cost-just-25-per-household/

 

So, we could even double the pay for ag workers and still only increase the price of fresh foods by 10%. Doubling the pay would be a great incentive to get people working, even in tough jobs like these. And, for the average family, that would cost about an extra $60 per year on their grocery bill, or $5 a month. And for that extra money, they could be assured that their food was harvested by legal workers who were fully protected by labour laws and not exploited.

 

A small price to pay for such a noble goal.

 

Harvesting grains (the food we eat too much of) is largely mechanized.  Harvesting fruits and vegetables (the food we don't eat enough of) is labor intensive.  You want to make the healthy food significantly more expensive.

 

 

9 minutes ago, heybruce said:

And that 27% is clearly not enough, since farmers still can't find enough workers.

 

Also, one source puts the foreign born at 49%, the other at 73%.  I suspect the difference is in how seasonal workers are counted.

Yes, like I said, there is a difference between legal visa holders/immgrants and illegal workers. It is a very important distinction.  The latter are much more vulnerable to exploitation and can easily fall through the cracks. But I was not wrong in my statement, as you asserted. Something like a third of ag workers are illegal immigrants.