Airport Hotel Monopoly

[tonythailand]

The only hotel in the airport is screwing its customers hard. Arrived weary at the check-in, and the receptionist scribbled a price down, which, I was shocked, 12,400 per night.I asked for the real rate, explained that I missed my flight,and was looking for Thai price, I explained I know the score, downtown Bkk, many for 1,000 to 2,000 bt. she scribbled down 7300,bt I want promo price please, "this is five star" she snooted,I asked her for a copy of the tarrif, "we dont have one" and I certainly souldn't see one on display. I said, I only stay in five star! Last week in Korat, 1300, perfect! Having gained a bit of ground , I smiled as she scribbled down 4,700.I accepted, and once I got the key, whispered to her,all the 5 star hotels I have stayed, they didn't use scraps of scribbled paper,and always displayed a tarrif.

Went to the room, weary and gaggin for a Heineken,couldn't afford to pay the mini-bar prices......small can.....200++ =235bt a can, but I was in luck, It was happy hour in the bar, two Heineken for 333++ =395bt. I had 10 minutes to get to the bar, before the happy event finished, then it was costing 395 for one glass of draft!

I contacted the manager to confirm the prices, and he told me it was 5 star,I explained, if he paid his Thai staff 20,000 a month I will pay his prices,It amounts to this, each glass of Heineken purchased,pays for 2 staff for their 12 hours of hard work, in actual fact, they are costing the hotel about 15 baht a day.The manager was aware of that fact, so, I said there are Pimps in the Capital that would be proud of them mark-ups, and to which,I accused him and their company of being morally disgracefull and that they were equal to pimps for exploitation. After a silence he apologised ,and he had no say in the situation. Just don't miss your flight is my advice,and if you want a taxi outside the airport, dont follow the arrows, its 50bt to get one , and guess where the 50bt goes.....in the direction of Manchester we believe, go up to the 4th floor, and get one outside. Extortion from the minute you land, what does the T.A.T have to say ???

[bendix]

You DO understand the relationship between supply and price, don't you?

Where there is extensive demand and limited supply, the price can be whatever the market will bear. It's not that difficult a concept.

Two things will change that. The demand either dries up, or the supply increases to take care of high demand.

Read Keynes. It might help.

[samran]

extortion is when someone holds a gun to your head and demands payment, lest something unpleasant happens to you.

So far as I can see, you mentioned no gun in your story, so you eventually paid what you wanted to, and the hotel took what it was ultimately happy to accept. It appears that perhaps you need to read up a little bit more on the concept of "discrimanatory pricing". It is a legit economic concept and is used everywhere from airline to...wait for it..hotels (though you may know the concept better from how little old ladies and kiddies are charged less for the cinema that you are).

Those who book in advance or for 'low' periods get the lowest price. Those who turn up late get charged the maximum rate, as their ability to negotiate a deal is small and their range of options are smaller.

So...if you dare humour me, what was the point of your post??

Was it:

a) in a round about way, were you trying to imply that all Thai's are rip of merchants and can't be trusted (especially poor helpless farangs)? A bit of a Thailand bash so to speak...

to campaign that all hotels should stop being businesses and start subsidising your inabilty to plan ahead?

c) a really bad attempt to convince me that there exists a true 5 star hotel in Korat?

d) an even worse attempt to convince me that there is a genuine 5 star hotel out there that charges 2000 baht per night?? or

e) an attempt to show you really don't understand economics, as practiced the world over.

Do enlighten me.....

[Brew]

c) a really bad attempt to convince me that there exists a true 5 star hotel in Korat?

think the only 5-star hotel in Northeastern Thailand is in Khon Kaen (see below)

d) an even worse attempt to convince me that there is a genuine 5 star hotel out there that charges 2000 baht per night??

http://sofitelkhonkaen.com

if you book through internet, it should be around 2200 Bt including V.A.T. and service charge

Edited July 15, 2007 by Brew

[samran]

I've stayed at the Sofitel Khon Kaen, and while it is nice, it ain't 5 star.

[solo siam]

The only hotel in the airport is screwing its customers hard. Arrived weary at the check-in, and the receptionist scribbled a price down, which, I was shocked, 12,400 per night.I asked for the real rate, explained that I missed my flight,and was looking for Thai price, I explained I know the score, downtown Bkk, many for 1,000 to 2,000 bt. she scribbled down 7300,bt I want promo price please, "this is five star" she snooted,I asked her for a copy of the tarrif, "we dont have one" and I certainly souldn't see one on display. I said, I only stay in five star! Last week in Korat, 1300, perfect! Having gained a bit of ground , I smiled as she scribbled down 4,700.I accepted, and once I got the key, whispered to her,all the 5 star hotels I have stayed, they didn't use scraps of scribbled paper,and always displayed a tarrif.

Went to the room, weary and gaggin for a Heineken,couldn't afford to pay the mini-bar prices......small can.....200++ =235bt a can, but I was in luck, It was happy hour in the bar, two Heineken for 333++ =395bt. I had 10 minutes to get to the bar, before the happy event finished, then it was costing 395 for one glass of draft!

I contacted the manager to confirm the prices, and he told me it was 5 star,I explained, if he paid his Thai staff 20,000 a month I will pay his prices,It amounts to this, each glass of Heineken purchased,pays for 2 staff for their 12 hours of hard work, in actual fact, they are costing the hotel about 15 baht a day.The manager was aware of that fact, so, I said there are Pimps in the Capital that would be proud of them mark-ups, and to which,I accused him and their company of being morally disgracefull and that they were equal to pimps for exploitation. After a silence he apologised ,and he had no say in the situation. Just don't miss your flight is my advice,and if you want a taxi outside the airport, dont follow the arrows, its 50bt to get one , and guess where the 50bt goes.....in the direction of Manchester we believe, go up to the 4th floor, and get one outside. Extortion from the minute you land, what does the T.A.T have to say ???

I doubt that Korat has a 5* Hotel. The rest of the stuff is just standard for Airports and Airport Hotels, have you flown before?

[TheWalkingMan]

The only hotel in the airport is screwing its customers hard. Arrived weary at the check-in, and the receptionist scribbled a price down, which, I was shocked, 12,400 per night....

I asked her for a copy of the tarrif, "we dont have one" and I certainly souldn't see one on display. I said, I only stay in five star! Last week in Korat, 1300, perfect! Having gained a bit of ground , I smiled as she scribbled down 4,700.I accepted, and once I got the key, whispered to her,all the 5 star hotels I have stayed, they didn't use scraps of scribbled paper,and always displayed a tarrif.

A first walk-in rate quote of 12,400 Baht per night. Jeez, talk about a suckers price. I think that price is higher than the Novotel Hotel website.

Actually I think the OP has at least one valid complaint/point.

No copy of the current tariff? Even some of the low quality guest houses have printed tariffs. For the front desk of a 5 star hotel to rely on pen scratchings to provide a price quote looks bad. What type of front desk service should be expected from a 5 star hotel. Sounds like some parts of the place is not up to snuff to be called 5 star.

TheWalkingMan

[Krub]

I've stayed at the Sofitel Khon Kaen, and while it is nice, it ain't 5 star.

If it is not 5 star it certainly feels and looks like a 5 star

Great hotel and great value

[tartempion]

You DO understand the relationship between supply and price, don't you?

Where there is extensive demand and limited supply, the price can be whatever the market will bear. It's not that difficult a concept.

Two things will change that. The demand either dries up, or the supply increases to take care of high demand.

Read Keynes. It might help.

Keynes ideas Don't work in Thailand, You should know that

To the OP: do your homework, easy to find some place for 1k baht around the airport with free pick-up.

(Queen Garden resort, Grand Inncome hotel)

[Monroe]

Ohh geez, I remember staying at the Airport Hotel a few years back with my father. He ended up paying around 250 USD for a night's stay and maybe an extra 50 for food.

Looking back on it, the price wasn't too outrageous, just high for Thailand and to their defense, the service was decent.

Also, you should understand that shouting at a manager will not get you anywhere, because the people above him make the rules--as far out of reach as they are, they can rarely ever be questioned--and they want to swindle of all they can.

This isn't a Thai thing, this can be applied throughout the world.

[Soju]

extortion is when someone holds a gun to your head and demands payment, lest something unpleasant happens to you.

So far as I can see, you mentioned no gun in your story, so you eventually paid what you wanted to, and the hotel took what it was ultimately happy to accept. It appears that perhaps you need to read up a little bit more on the concept of "discrimanatory pricing". It is a legit economic concept and is used everywhere from airline to...wait for it..hotels (though you may know the concept better from how little old ladies and kiddies are charged less for the cinema that you are).

Those who book in advance or for 'low' periods get the lowest price. Those who turn up late get charged the maximum rate, as their ability to negotiate a deal is small and their range of options are smaller.

So...if you dare humour me, what was the point of your post??

Was it:

a) in a round about way, were you trying to imply that all Thai's are rip of merchants and can't be trusted (especially poor helpless farangs)? A bit of a Thailand bash so to speak...

b ) to campaign that all hotels should stop being businesses and start subsidising your inabilty to plan ahead?

c) a really bad attempt to convince me that there exists a true 5 star hotel in Korat?

d) an even worse attempt to convince me that there is a genuine 5 star hotel out there that charges 2000 baht per night?? or

e) an attempt to show you really don't understand economics, as practiced the world over.

Do enlighten me.....

a) I don't see how anyone could interpret the OP as a Thailand bash, but whatever.

d) According to the official website for Accor Hotels, Asia, the company that owns the Novotel, Sofitel, and other hotels, the Novotel Suvarnabhumi is a 4-star hotel, while the Sofitel Raja Orchid Khon Kaen is a 5-star hotel. Ratings are obviously very subjective, but I would consider the Sofitel a 5-star, though certainly there are other 5-star hotels which are superior to it. It is far above the typical 4-star hotel. I think most, but not all, hotel reviews would likely place the hotel in the 5-star category. Both the Novotel Suvarnabhumi, and the Sofitel Khon Kaen can be had for about the same price if you plan ahead - 2,200 THB per night.

b ) Being that according to their official website, the rack-rate at the Novotel Suvarnabhumi is only 8,500 THB per night, and that they refused to show him their rate card, clearly the staff at the hotel were trying to scam the OP. There is no excuse for not planning ahead, but in the case of the OP, he specifically states he missed his flight and so needed the hotel because of that. So no need to get on his case for not planning ahead. We've all been in similar situations before and appreciate not being scammed because of some situation where we were not able to plan ahead as per normal.

c) I've never been to Korat, but have my doubts that there are any hotels there that I would call 5-stars. Again though that is someone's personal opinion as to the rating. I wouldn't be surprised to find a 4-star hotel there though, and if so would expect a 4-star hotel to likely cost in the same neighborhood as the OP states. Being the Novotel Suvarnabhumi is only a 4-star hotel, he may very well have stayed at a similar hotel in Korat for 1,300 THB as stated.

There have been several reports of shenanigans going on at the Novotel Suvarnabhumi, including illegally charging extra for "early checkout" and illegally winning the contract to be the sole airport hotel. It seems they've simply paid a fee to use the Novotel name and be associated with the chain, but run by a bunch of crooks and hopefully Accor Hotels will catch on to their scams and revoke their license to use their name. As it is they're giving the entire chain a bad name, which in my experience is normally very good in their standards and their honesty.

I think the OP does have a valid gripe being he was forced into this situation due missing his flight. Had he planned ahead of time on overnighting in Bangkok, then I wouldn't have much sympathy for him, though regardless of the situation do definitely agree that the Novotel Suvarnabhumi is being run by a bunch of shysters.

One of the definitions of extortion is, "an exorbitant charge", which very much is appropriate in the way the OP used the term. Your definition of the term is a very limited definition.

To the OP: I'd write a letter to the president of Accor Hotels if I was you and report this situation. If they get enough complaints they may take action against the hotel.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Soju

[bendix]

The only half-decent hotel in Korat is the Royal Princess which (I think I'm right in saying) is part of the Dusit group. It's 4 star at best and even that is stretching a point. I'd say 3.5 star is more accurate.

[ashacat]

OP: Although I agree that the prices they quoted you are extremely expensive (especially when compared to comparable hotels throughout the country) you will find that it is not too out of line with other airport hotels. The same thing goes for the price of a beer (395 Baht), again very expensive, but as other people have stated; it is simply a case of supply and demand (albiet a pretty cheeky mark up!) If you were so disgusted with the price of a drink from the bar, my advice would be not to drink there.

[think_too_mut]

You DO understand the relationship between supply and price, don't you?

Where there is extensive demand and limited supply, the price can be whatever the market will bear. It's not that difficult a concept.

Two things will change that. The demand either dries up, or the supply increases to take care of high demand.

Read Keynes. It might help.

Handy, but it's a nonsense in this situation.

Novotel chain of hotels would not jack up their prices because there are no other hotels in the area. They would cut on promotions and deals but they won't do what is happening here.

Novotel is the only hotel in 30km radius in Glen Waverly, in Melbourne outskirts, many factories there, hundreds of business travelers but no price fluctuations although they could fill 500 rooms, not only 200 that they have.

Seven years on, the price is still identical.

What we have here is a plain 3rd World robbery committed by all staff, led and commanded by their manager.

It should be reported to Novotel Headquarters.

Novotel does not let local managers practice their understanding of Keynes on incoming guests.

Edited July 16, 2007 by think_too_mut

[Soju]

Good post, Think_too_mut. I wouldn't be surprised though if the decision to commit robbery doesn't extend all the way up to the very top of the company, Universal Hospitality Joint Venture, which owns the right to run the hotel. A thread about their illegal contract can be found here. You would expect this type of thing from a small sole-proprietor guesthouse, where they thought they could get away with charging 4x the going rate, not from a major hotel chain. Novotel and Sofitel are my preferred hotel choices wherever I go world-wide, and I've never run across a single one where they tried to jackup the price beyond the rack rate.

It is common practice to ask first for the rack rate if the hotel is nearly full and they think they can get away with it - not just Novotel, but other big chains as well, then perhaps come down if they realize they can't get that price. I accept that business practice - the same as is present in many other industries, airlines included. But asking for a 50% premium over the rack rate is, as you say, simply robbery. They know that a lot of business travelers come through there where the company will pay and so it seems they purposely start out with a price much higher than their official rack rate, knowing that many customers won't think twice about it and just get the room regardless of the rate.

I can understand the hotel charging double the rack rate of similar hotels in Bangkok, being they're at the airport - the same as what happens around the world at airports. That isn't the issue. It's the price gouging over and above their published rack rates which is the problem.

[lomatopo]

Both the Novotel Suvarnabhumi, and the Sofitel Khon Kaen can be had for about the same price if you plan ahead - 2,200 THB per night.

I think that 2,200 THB rate (exclusive of VAT) is for a four (4) hour stay, no overnight stay. 4,000 THB (again, exclusive of VAT) is the cheapest full night rate I've seen on this property (Novotel Suvarnabhumi). My guess is that the true rack rate is probably the 12,400 figure, and of course almost no one ever pays the rack rate.

[Minburi]

I have seen something similar. We called the Rama Gardens from Hong KOng as we boarded our Thai Air flight that was getting in very late 11 p.m or so and asked about room rates and was told 2400 baht and there were rooms which was fine. After clearing customs and such we got the Taxi to the Rama Gardens and was told that the room rate was 7300 Thai baht. I know I know I should have booked a room and such. I just felt they were rail roading us as it was so late and thought we were desperate. Which we were not. I just wanted a room with A.C on the first night close to the old airport. In the end we just got in the taxi and went out to Min Buri to our house and got my fix of A.C in the Taxi and had to settle with a Fan.

[Soju]

You're right, my mistake, that 2,200 THB rate was just the 4-hour stay, not overnight...I should have read it more carefully. But according to their website, www.acccorhotels-asia.com, 8,500 THB is the rack rate. Their rack rate may fluctuate some depending on the season, as many hotels do, but this being low season now I wouldn't expect the rack rate to go up by 50%. My experience has been that they'll always quote you the same rack rate as they show on their website. They shouldn't be having multiple rack rates, depending on how much they think the customer is willing to pay.

[tonythailand]

My post,was intended to be friendly and informative, however, some senior members, one in particular, ......(not clever, just plain rude, I suggest you refrain in future ) have chosen to chastise me for my stupidity.I surrender to your wisdom and "Hotel-Guru" status,accept my apologies.I normally stay in the Holiday Inn, in Silom, through choice, and I have many options to wander around, outside, and I am not restricted ! I have options. Hence my referral to "monopoly" Secondly, the 5 star I referred to in Korat,was indeed the newly refurbished Thani.Ok not perhaps officially 5*, but my official rating would be double of that of the airport,because of the quality and pure hospitality 100% and no scamming, If the Guru's prefer to mark them on fixtures and fittings, ok you win,sorry,again.

Thirdly, if you would like to check the "missed flights"book at passport control, there are many many thousands of names in it, do you suppose they were naive for not booking in advance.Furthermore, immigration, and, one of the ticket sales staff refered, no, "usherred" us in the direction of the airport hotel, advising us of the 2,000bt price tag.This was confirmed,by the manager of the hotel, but it refered to their sister hotel in Bang-Na. Oh dear, how stupid of me to not realise.........T I T

Edited July 16, 2007 by tonythailand

[TheWalkingMan]

Just for laughs I checked out the Novotel Hotel website and this is some of what I found.

Type | Full Rate| Best Unrestricted Rate | Promotion

Suite 12,000 | 8,500 | 9,600

Executive 9,700 | 6,200 | 7,300

Deluxe 8,500 | 5,000 | 6,100

4hr day rate - 2,200 (no overnight)

Day use only - 4,500 (no overnight)

I always thought that rates from hotel company websites were usually the worst places to book as they contained the highest prices.

So that initial quote of 12,400 Baht was just a bit more than the Full Rate for a suite.

TheWalkingMan

[chuchok]

on the ratestogodotcom web site,rate is US$176...and that is booking it today!!!

Novotel..Airport

[bendix]

Handy, but it's a nonsense in this situation.

Novotel chain of hotels would not jack up their prices because there are no other hotels in the area. They would cut on promotions and deals but they won't do what is happening here.

Novotel is the only hotel in 30km radius in Glen Waverly, in Melbourne outskirts, many factories there, hundreds of business travelers but no price fluctuations although they could fill 500 rooms, not only 200 that they have.

Seven years on, the price is still identical.

What we have here is a plain 3rd World robbery committed by all staff, led and commanded by their manager.

It should be reported to Novotel Headquarters.

Novotel does not let local managers practice their understanding of Keynes on incoming guests.

Let's try this again. It's simple supply and demand. The punter wants the room, the hotel wants to maximise revenue. Rack rates have nothing to do with it and I would imagine Novotel management would be delighted an enterprising hotel receptionist sought to maximise profits and then, when the demand appeared to fade away, adjusted the price downwards.

But let's come back to rack rates. You mention Glen Waverly. While that's very fascinating, let's talk about hotels in Sydney during the Olympics which capitalised on the demand for rooms by blowing their rack rates out of the water. It's normal commercial practice.

When i do consulting work, I usually aim to get around 5000 baht an hour. It seems a fair rate. However, if I think the client can afford it and is wants me enough to pay it, I will gladly quote a rate double that. What in principle is wrong with that? If I see the client running away from my quote I will make a commercial decision to either let him go or, if I need the income, adjust my price to the market.

Having said all that, samran . . . how about you and me investing in a hotel at the airport together? We could make a killing on gullible fools.

[chuchok]

Handy, but it's a nonsense in this situation.

Novotel chain of hotels would not jack up their prices because there are no other hotels in the area. They would cut on promotions and deals but they won't do what is happening here.

Novotel is the only hotel in 30km radius in Glen Waverly, in Melbourne outskirts, many factories there, hundreds of business travelers but no price fluctuations although they could fill 500 rooms, not only 200 that they have.

Seven years on, the price is still identical.

What we have here is a plain 3rd World robbery committed by all staff, led and commanded by their manager.

It should be reported to Novotel Headquarters.

Novotel does not let local managers practice their understanding of Keynes on incoming guests.

Let's try this again. It's simple supply and demand. The punter wants the room, the hotel wants to maximise revenue. Rack rates have nothing to do with it and I would imagine Novotel management would be delighted an enterprising hotel receptionist sought to maximise profits and then, when the demand appeared to fade away, adjusted the price downwards.

But let's come back to rack rates. You mention Glen Waverly. While that's very fascinating, let's talk about hotels in Sydney during the Olympics which capitalised on the demand for rooms by blowing their rack rates out of the water. It's normal commercial practice.

When i do consulting work, I usually aim to get around 5000 baht an hour. It seems a fair rate. However, if I think the client can afford it and is wants me enough to pay it, I will gladly quote a rate double that. What in principle is wrong with that? If I see the client running away from my quote I will make a commercial decision to either let him go or, if I need the income, adjust my price to the market.

Having said all that, samran . . . how about you and me investing in a hotel at the airport together? We could make a killing on gullible fools.

There is certainly nothing wrong with charging what the market will stand,but you are comparing apples with grapes.....

If you charged a customer THB5000 and hour,all fine and good,but if that person u are dealing with changes companies and at the knew company (That you do business for as well),he finds out that you have been charging THB10k an hour for similar work...bet the <deleted> hits the fan then.

At the end of the day with Novotel,they probably don't give a rats arse as they have a captive market and probably prey on people who miss flights etc.

[think_too_mut]

Let's try this again. It's simple supply and demand. The punter wants the room, the hotel wants to maximise revenue. Rack rates have nothing to do with it and I would imagine Novotel management would be delighted an enterprising hotel receptionist sought to maximise profits and then, when the demand appeared to fade away, adjusted the price downwards.

Enough to demonstrate how little you know about corporates.

Mickey mouse comp that is engaging you could be just the right shelter.

[bendix]

If you charged a customer THB5000 and hour,all fine and good,but if that person u are dealing with changes companies and at the knew company (That you do business for as well),he finds out that you have been charging THB10k an hour for similar work...bet the <deleted> hits the fan then.

Shit hit the fan? No it wouldn't. It would need one of two things: either an adjustment that the market is now better informed than before and so a downward price movement is necessary, OR the new client would decide that I'm either worth it or I'm not. And there would be subsequent negotiation.

It's normal business practice.

[bendix]

Enough to demonstrate how little you know about corporates.

Mickey mouse comp that is engaging you could be just the right shelter.

My dear fellow. You're probably right. You usually are.

By the way, the 'mickey mouse comp' that i signed a consulting agreement with just today is a Big Four audit/management consultancy firm with offices in over 100 countries. I did some work for them last month at 5000 an hour to get in the door. My new agreement is 50 hours per month at 6000 an hour, with associated penalty clauses or bonus payments subject to results.

But, hey, I'll pass them your regards.

[think_too_mut]

Enough to demonstrate how little you know about corporates.

Mickey mouse comp that is engaging you could be just the right shelter.

My dear fellow. You're probably right. You usually are.

By the way, the 'mickey mouse comp' that i signed a consulting agreement with just today is a Big Four audit/management consultancy firm with offices in over 100 countries. I did some work for them last month at 5000 an hour to get in the door. My new agreement is 50 hours per month at 6000 an hour, with associated penalty clauses or bonus payments subject to results.

But, hey, I'll pass them your regards.

You are spreading more of it now.

No reputable company would ever let their pawns talk money with the clients. It's set somewhere upstream.

If they dare, all the chain goes out the door. Meaning, you, your manager, his manager... exactly what the robbers at Suvarnabhumi Novotel have done, according to the OP. A blatant breach of (Novotel) corporate integrity.

More amusement for the public about robbing clients? Would "top 4" know more than anyone else? I doubt.

[bendix]

Have you ever stayed in a hotel that isn't Nana Hotel? Have you never walked into a lobby late in the evening, and asked for the rate and been told, say, 4000 baht and then, when they realise you are happy to walk away, the rate falls to 3000?

is that what you mean by 'pawns' talking dollars to their clients?

You DO realise, don't you, when ten people are checking out in the morning, it's highly likely not one of them paid the same price? Same on a plane . . .

As for your last sentence, i have no idea what point you're trying to make. Who is robbing clients? A seller names his price - a client chooses to accept or not. If a seller sees the client wants your services, puts the prices up accordingly and the client accepts, who is being robbed?

The fact that you use the term 'top 4' tells me all i need to know about your familiarity with big business ;-)

Edited July 16, 2007 by bendix

[chuchok]

If you charged a customer THB5000 and hour,all fine and good,but if that person u are dealing with changes companies and at the knew company (That you do business for as well),he finds out that you have been charging THB10k an hour for similar work...bet the <deleted> hits the fan then.

Shit hit the fan? No it wouldn't. It would need one of two things: either an adjustment that the market is now better informed than before and so a downward price movement is necessary, OR the new client would decide that I'm either worth it or I'm not. And there would be subsequent negotiation.

It's normal business practice.

If the client was clued up and the market hadn't moved, he/she wouldn't stand for any of your "The market is now better informed weazel speak" I've been in that situation many times before.Unless you are very,very good at your job and have built up a very good relationship with your customer,then I would guess the win/loss would be around 50/50.

Whatever you want to call the above example,most people can see it for what it is...a deception as to what is the current market rate is.

Edited July 16, 2007 by chuchok

[chinthee]

I must be older than some of you. When I first started in business it was just the end of the "top 8." It then went to the "top 6." Now all the bean counters are on one hand.