Moment Range Rover explodes before £20m multi-storey structure collapses - sparking travel chaos for up to 50,000 passengers

[Chomper Higgot]

17 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

That's great. You can provide the links then when you disprove what's in the video.

 

I'm waiting...

I don’t need to disprove any videos.

 

You made a statement.

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

So we should expect more serious fires in car parks, shopping malls etc. as more EV's hit the market.

I’ve explained what is wrong with that statement.

 

 A battery fire and a fuel tank fire are two different scenarios, one has a great deal more fuel which has the unfortunate habit of evaporating into an flammable/explosive gas, creating pool fires and flammable fuel flows.

 

Anti EV videos don’t address any of those facts.

 

Incidentally, does YouTube award any recognized fire safety or fire safety design qualifications and if so how many videos does one have to watch to get the award?

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Chomper Higgot

[JonnyF]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I don’t need to disprove any videos.

How fortunate. Given that you can't dispute the facts. ????

 

EV fires are harder to extinguish than ICE fires. If you think that's a good thing, crack on and save the planet with all that child mined Lithium. 

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara

 

 

Don't forget to save up for the insurance though.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/net-zero/insuring-electric-car-reasons-why-nightmare-costs-cover/

 

[Screaming]

Can you image if the entire garage was filled with Lithium battery vehicles. There would be a total meltdown of this garage. No EVs for me.

[soalbundy]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

 

They don't specifically state the Diesel car was the Range Rover, but diesel does not to my knowledge explode by itself, which is why it is a preferable fuel for tanks.

 

It was one of our cheaper models.

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, Screaming said:

Can you image if the entire garage was filled with Lithium battery vehicles. There would be a total meltdown of this garage. No EVs for me.

Would a fire starting in an EV have produced enough heat and hot gasses to cause the fire flashover that occurred in this instance?

 

 

[JonnyF]

5 minutes ago, Screaming said:

Can you image if the entire garage was filled with Lithium battery vehicles. There would be a total meltdown of this garage. No EVs for me.

Not to mention the release of chemicals.

 

https://theconversation.com/what-causes-lithium-ion-battery-fires-why-are-they-so-intense-and-how-should-they-be-fought-an-expert-explains-214470

 

 

A small price to pay for pontificating about your virtue at an Islington cafe.

[JonnyF]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Would a fire starting in an EV have produced enough heat and hot gasses to cause the fire flashover that occurred in this instance?

 

 

Given that EV fires can be around 1000 degrees hotter than ICE, the answer is obviously Yes.

 

https://core.verisk.com/Insights/Emerging-Issues/Articles/2023/August/Week-4/Electric-Vehicle-Fire-Risk

 

[Georgealbert]

10 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Not to mention the release of chemicals.

 

https://theconversation.com/what-causes-lithium-ion-battery-fires-why-are-they-so-intense-and-how-should-they-be-fought-an-expert-explains-214470

 

 

A small price to pay for pontificating about your virtue at an Islington cafe.

All fires produce hazardous gases, hence why fire service wear SCBA.

 

Below is what you expect in smoke. Smoke and fire gases kill most people in fires. 

 

 

[ArnieP]

Luton Airport flights returning to normal after car park fire https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67086566

[JonnyF]

20 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Would a fire starting in an EV have produced enough heat and hot gasses to cause the fire flashover that occurred in this instance?

 

 

Seems like it was a hybrid. Range Rover Sport Diesel Hybrid to be exact.

 

When diesel burns it creates thick clouds of black smoke.

 

 

Electric car fires look more like this.

 

 

Here is the Range Rover that caused the fire. Almost certainly a hybrid given the location of the fire on the car and the bright flames and greyish blueish smoke.

 

 

Diesel doesn't burn very easily, it's one of the reasons they use it in tanks.

 

 

[Georgealbert]

10 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Seems like it was a hybrid. Range Rover Sport Diesel Hybrid to be exact.

 

When diesel burns it creates thick clouds of black smoke.

 

 

Electric car fires look more like this.

 

 

Here is the Range Rover that caused the fire. Almost certainly a hybrid given the location of the fire on the car and the bright flames and greyish blueish smoke.

 

 

Diesel doesn't burn very easily, it's one of the reasons they use it in tanks.

 

 

What was burning in this fire was the whole cars, fittings, seating, fuel, oil, brake fluid, etc. and some of the fittings, lighting, wall claddings, in the car park.

 

Your posts continue to show you have no knowledge of how a fire develops. You have no understanding of heat development, smoke/fire gases, floshover, smoke explosions, defensive and offensive fire fighting techniques, passive and active fire safety/protection measure and incident command.

 

You don’t want facts, because you seem to think your knowledge is superior.  5555

 

Do real research, not find a few video that fit your narrow view.

[Chomper Higgot]

40 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Given that EV fires can be around 1000 degrees hotter than ICE, the answer is obviously Yes.

 

https://core.verisk.com/Insights/Emerging-Issues/Articles/2023/August/Week-4/Electric-Vehicle-Fire-Risk

 

Not quite so obvious Jonny.

 

There are other factors, how much hot gas is produced? which is a product of available fuel.

 

Are any flammable gasses (un burned or partially burned fuels) released and insufficient quantity to reach a flammable or explosive limit? Again a product of the fuels available.

 

Where is the heat of the fire concentrated? Does is spread in, for example a pool fire or is it contained within the shell of the vehicle?

 

Even intense heats pose considerably less risk of a fire spreading where they do not have access to sufficient fuels or are contained within a chassis that obstructs radiated heat transmission.

 

 

[Tug]

4 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Not quite so obvious Jonny.

 

There are other factors, how much hot gas is produced? which is a product of available fuel.

 

Are any flammable gasses (un burned or partially burned fuels) released and insufficient quantity to reach a flammable or explosive limit? Again a product of the fuels available.

 

Where is the heat of the fire concentrated? Does is spread in, for example a pool fire or is it contained within the shell of the vehicle?

 

Even intense heats pose considerably less risk of a fire spreading where they do not have access to sufficient fuels or are contained within a chassis that obstructs radiated heat transmission.

 

 

I agree about the flashover being caused by petroleum fuels in the cars but the fact remains one of the problems with EVs is we don’t have an efficient way to extinguish a fire when they do burn.those batteries store an incredible amount of energy it’s a problem without a good solution at this time.

[nauseus]

10 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

 

They don't specifically state the Diesel car was the Range Rover, but diesel does not to my knowledge explode by itself, which is why it is a preferable fuel for tanks.

 

Exactly. How many diesel cars has anyone seen explode? Ever.

Answers on extremely small postcards, please.

 

Sounds like the CC crew trying to make sure an EV is not the culprit.

 

[nauseus]

8 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

That would only be true if EV’s contain more fuel for any fire that occurs.

 

The Energy/Fuel/Oxygen Fire Triangle for an EV has higher Energy but less fuel than an ICV which transports its energy as liquid/gas fuel.

 

 

LIB's don't respect the traditional fire triangle. Thermal runaway occurs after a rapid self-heating of a cell, featuring an exothermic chemical reaction between the +ve and -ve electrodes (of different chemical compounds) of the cell. These reactions produce gases, which pressurize and then escape, often as exploding fuel.

 

Nasty stuff lithium.

[bendejo]

17 hours ago, Crossy said:

Oops, no sprinklers!!!

 

Meanwhile in "third-world" Thailand!!

But do we know that they will function when needed?

 

[Georgealbert]

8 hours ago, nauseus said:

LIB's don't respect the traditional fire triangle. Thermal runaway occurs after a rapid self-heating of a cell, featuring an exothermic chemical reaction between the +ve and -ve electrodes (of different chemical compounds) of the cell. These reactions produce gases, which pressurize and then escape, often as exploding fuel.

 

Nasty stuff lithium.

Interesting claim, can you supply a link to the research that shows this.

 

The fire  triangle/tetrahedron is a basic understanding of a fire and how to extinguish it.

 

Below is a research paper that shows how the three traditional boundaries apply in a lithium battery fire.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8102908/#:~:text=The main conditions for ignition,O2%2C ignition and T ignition.

[BritManToo]

17 hours ago, Georgealbert said:

As a recent retired senior fire officer, with just under 40 years experience, and over 1000 fire investigations, it is nice to be lectured by a bar stool expert.

Doubt you had much experience of EV fires as they've only been around a couple of years.

[Chomper Higgot]

9 hours ago, nauseus said:

LIB's don't respect the traditional fire triangle. Thermal runaway occurs after a rapid self-heating of a cell, featuring an exothermic chemical reaction between the +ve and -ve electrodes (of different chemical compounds) of the cell. These reactions produce gases, which pressurize and then escape, often as exploding fuel.

 

Nasty stuff lithium.

How does that change the calculation of which is the more serious fire?

 

Battery + Flammable Contents of Vehicle v Fuel System + Flammable Contents of Vehicle.

EV and CE fires have both shared and differing characteristics.

 

Containment of the fire is in particular different.

 

Both produce toxic and high temperature gasses, but CE fires add pooling/flowing of fuel and flammable/explosive fuel vapor clouds.

 

[Social Media]

flame and response removed.

[Georgealbert]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Doubt you had much experience of EV fires as they've only been around a couple of years.

EV1 was 1996, lithium batteries have been use since the 1990s.

 

NFCC (National Fire Chief. Council) have multi working group on all new risks and technologies, things are discussed with the motor industry. Guidelines, procedures and operational techniques are released to all fire services, through either SOPs, manuals or bulletins.

 

So I probably have more knowledge and experience than most on the thread.

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, Georgealbert said:

Interesting claim, can you supply a link to the research that shows this.

 

The fire  triangle/tetrahedron is a basic understanding of a fire and how to extinguish it.

 

Below is a research paper that shows how the three traditional boundaries apply in a lithium battery fire.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8102908/#:~:text=The main conditions for ignition,O2%2C ignition and T ignition.

Your own linked paper seems to agree with what I said (in far more detail of course).

 

I see that you include the word tetrahedron. That is the big difference it seems.

[BritManToo]

8 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

EV1 was 1996, lithium batteries have been use since the 1990s.

 

NFCC (National Fire Chief. Council) have multi working group on all new risks and technologies, things are discussed with the motor industry. Guidelines, procedures and operational techniques are released to all fire services, through either SOPs, manuals or bulletins.

 

So I probably have more knowledge and experience than most on the thread.

How many EV fires have you put out?

[Georgealbert]

3 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

How many EV fires have you put out?

 

3 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

How many EV fires have you put out?

Sorry never keep a count. I tried to work out once, that i have been to over 10000 emergency incidents over my career.

 

Minor fires, like cars, whatever fuel, are not something you remember.

 

I have investigated 3 property fires which may have been caused by EVs, but each case was caused by other reasons. And before some of the people on this thread try to claim, no i was not told to find others causes. I deal with facts and not conspiracy theories.

 

Now cheap electric scooters, are a different problem and issue, but that would be moving away from the original post of car park fire.

[Georgealbert]

17 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Your own linked paper seems to agree with what I said (in far more detail of course).

 

I see that you include the word tetrahedron. That is the big difference it seems.

No tetrahedron is not a big difference, just the basics.

 

https://www.firesafe.org.uk/information-about-the-fire-triangletetrahedron-and-combustion/#:~:text=The fire triangle was changed,and a chemical chain reaction.

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

How does that change the calculation of which is the more serious fire?

 

Battery + Flammable Contents of Vehicle v Fuel System + Flammable Contents of Vehicle.

EV and CE fires have both shared and differing characteristics.

 

Containment of the fire is in particular different.

 

Both produce toxic and high temperature gasses, but CE fires add pooling/flowing of fuel and flammable/explosive fuel vapor clouds.

 

Not sure where you get your calculation parameters from?

 

EV and CE fires have both shared and differing characteristics - yes but the differing ones outnumber the shared. Lithium burns at higher temperatures and is far more difficult to extinguish/control. 

 

[nauseus]

9 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

No tetrahedron is not a big difference, just the basics.

 

https://www.firesafe.org.uk/information-about-the-fire-triangletetrahedron-and-combustion/#:~:text=The fire triangle was changed,and a chemical chain reaction.

The word tetrahedron is a relatively new term added to the traditional concept of the fire triangle, as I'm sure someone of your experience will recall.

[Georgealbert]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The word tetrahedron is a relatively new term added to the traditional concept of the fire triangle, as I'm sure someone of your experience will recall.

Yes agree, maybe a new term in general use.
 

When I did my first courses at the UK Fire Service College, Moreton in Marsh, 80s, it was the term used for fire science.

[Chomper Higgot]

13 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Not sure where you get your calculation parameters from?

 

EV and CE fires have both shared and differing characteristics - yes but the differing ones outnumber the shared. Lithium burns at higher temperatures and is far more difficult to extinguish/control. 

 

I gave the parameters.

 

Fuel in EV, including batteries and combustible materials in the vehicle.

 

Fuel in CV including the automotive fuel and combustible materials in the vehicle.

 

The case for fire in one being more serious than fire in the other needs to consider the characteristics of both fires.

 

Higher temperatures and more difficult to extinguish are one set of characteristics.

 

Quantity of heat, behavior of fuels in their liquid and gaseous phases are another set of characteristics.

[nauseus]

7 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

Yes agree, maybe a new term in general use.
 

When I did my first courses at the UK Fire Service College, Moreton in Marsh, 80s, it was the term used for fire science.

Advanced stuff! I was restricted to triangles. 

 

Thanks for putting the fires out.