2016 Tesla Model S Used as a Taxi Has Only 12% Battery Degradation After 310K Miles

[JBChiangRai]

18 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

The World's Top-Selling Automakers, Ranked

Toyota Motor Corp. sold 10.48 million vehicles in 2022, keeping its title as the world's top-selling automaker for a third year.

https://www.carlogos.org/reviews/worlds-top-selling-automakers.html

 

Toyota has an important warning for electric vehicle enthusiasts

Despite major investments in EVs, automakers have been sounding the alarm.

https://www.thestreet.com/electric-vehicles/toyota-has-an-important-warning-for-electric-vehicle-enthusiasts

Those EV enthusiasts who have been following what’s happening know that every automaker outside China is running scared.

 

They can’t compete.

 

Even Musk’s Tesla was outsold in Thailand last month 10 to 1 by a single Chinese brand.

 

Akio Toyoda is a dinosaur who was forced by his board to stand down as CEO of Toyota this year after he held Toyota back from producing EV’s. A passing fad he said.

 

You only have to look at what every company mentioned in that article is offering in the EV market.  Their EV’s are uncompetitive in the extreme.  Even Tesla doesn’t have the margins to compete with BYD.

 

The next step will be their demand for tariffs so they can compete with China.

 

They are offering horse and carts in the revolution to powered automobiles.  
 

People don’t want hybrids, I read new buyers are leapfrogging hybrids and moving straight to BEV’s.

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

Those EV enthusiasts who have been following what’s happening know that every automaker outside China is running scared.

 

They can’t compete.

 

Even Musk’s Tesla was outsold in Thailand last month 10 to 1 by a single Chinese brand.

 

Akio Toyoda is a dinosaur who was forced by his board to stand down as CEO of Toyota this year after he held Toyota back from producing EV’s. A passing fad he said.

 

You only have to look at what every company mentioned in that article is offering in the EV market.  Their EV’s are uncompetitive in the extreme.  Even Tesla doesn’t have the margins to compete with BYD.

 

The next step will be their demand for tariffs so they can compete with China.

 

They are offering horse and carts in the revolution to powered automobiles.  
 

People don’t want hybrids, I read new buyers are leapfrogging hybrids and moving straight to BEV’s.

Akio Toyoda was re-elected as Chairman with the backing of 85% of Toyota shareholders

As for hybrid's

Michelle Krebs, executive analyst with Cox Automotive, says these concerns are common. And as a result, hybrids are much more popular with shoppers than all-electric vehicles.

"About 11% of all new car shoppers look at EVs," she says. "About 20% of all new car shoppers shop for hybrids."

https://www.npr.org/2023/02/24/1158306767/prius-toyota-hybrids-electric-car-climate-change

 

GM on the same day said that it was delaying the production of its coming EV

Ford said it was slowing down the production of its F-150 Lightning truck. 

 

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

6 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Akio Toyoda was re-elected as Chairman with the backing of 85% of Toyota shareholders

As for hybrid's

Michelle Krebs, executive analyst with Cox Automotive, says these concerns are common. And as a result, hybrids are much more popular with shoppers than all-electric vehicles.

"About 11% of all new car shoppers look at EVs," she says. "About 20% of all new car shoppers shop for hybrids."

https://www.npr.org/2023/02/24/1158306767/prius-toyota-hybrids-electric-car-climate-change

 

GM on the same day said that it was delaying the production of its coming EV

Ford said it was slowing down the production of its F-150 Lightning truck. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To advance change at Toyota, I have reached the decision that it is best for me to support a new president while I become chairman.

The change Toyoda is looking to advance is in regards to electric vehicles and navigating the industry moving forward.

 

Akio stood down as CEO at the boards request because he was anti-EV and because of him Toyota lost years in the EV race.  It’s not difficult to stay on as chairman when your family created the company, and you probably own a huge tranche of shares.

American manufacturers are slowing down their production of EV’s because of price led demand & supply chain issues.  They can’t compete with China, it’s the same in Europe.  Demand for EV’s is accelerating massively, but people look at the price of excellent Chinese products and won’t pay 40% more for a local equivalent. In Europe there is a 10% tariff on Chinese EV’s and people are still finding local equivalents grossly uncompetitive and poorly equipped. I think in America a lot of it is supply chain issues. The first thing Tesla did with their money was secure their supply chain.  With the Ford F150 lightning it’s a supply chain issue, Rivian have the same issue with massive demand but long order books, upto 4 years on popular configurations.

 

IMHO the GM & Ford announcement is nothing more than spreading FUD to push sales of their ICE vehicles. It doesn’t bear out what’s happening worldwide.

Pickup trucks are another ball game, it’s too early to say what will happen in that market, let’s see what happens when BYD enter that market next year. 
 

But if we look at sales figures in Thailand, EV’s are growing at a fantastic rate and people are leapfrogging Hybrids.  As EV’s have improved, Hybrids have gone from being the best of both worlds to inferior to EV’s.  People who don’t own an EV say the charging infrastructure isn’t good enough, here in Thailand that’s not the case, it’s a complete non-issue.

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

 

 

To advance change at Toyota, I have reached the decision that it is best for me to support a new president while I become chairman.

The change Toyoda is looking to advance is in regards to electric vehicles and navigating the industry moving forward.

 

Akio stood down as CEO at the boards request because he was anti-EV and because of him Toyota lost years in the EV race.  It’s not difficult to stay on as chairman when your family created the company, and you probably own a huge tranche of shares.

American manufacturers are slowing down their production of EV’s because of price led demand & supply chain issues.  They can’t compete with China, it’s the same in Europe.  Demand for EV’s is accelerating massively, but people look at the price of excellent Chinese products and won’t pay 40% more for a local equivalent. In Europe there is a 10% tariff on Chinese EV’s and people are still finding local equivalents grossly uncompetitive and poorly equipped. I think in America a lot of it is supply chain issues. The first thing Tesla did with their money was secure their supply chain.  With the Ford F150 lightning it’s a supply chain issue, Rivian have the same issue with massive demand but long order books, upto 4 years on popular configurations.

 

IMHO the GM & Ford announcement is nothing more than spreading FUD to push sales of their ICE vehicles. It doesn’t bear out what’s happening worldwide.

Pickup trucks are another ball game, it’s too early to say what will happen in that market, let’s see what happens when BYD enter that market next year. 
 

But if we look at sales figures in Thailand, EV’s are growing at a fantastic rate and people are leapfrogging Hybrids.  As EV’s have improved, Hybrids have gone from being the best of both worlds to inferior to EV’s.  People who don’t own an EV say the charging infrastructure isn’t good enough, here in Thailand that’s not the case, it’s a complete non-issue.

GM exemplifies the dilemma many carmakers face. The early adopters who bought EVs have gone home and the remaining consumers are hitting pause on EV consideration amid economic uncertainty, the lack of a widespread and reliable charging network and continued higher prices for most EVs compared with gasoline-powered counterparts,

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2023/10/27/forget-the-strike-the-real-crisis-could-be-a-lack-of-demand-for-evs/71291494007/

If you divide the customer base into 3 sections you have

1)  you have the early adopters ( EV enthusiasts ) who seem to have bought a EV not for climate change but mainly to get a supercar on the cheap as most of the posts on this forum seem to be focused on the 0-100 km such as the 3.8 seconds on the BYD Seal

2) The next group of customers are the undecided or the inbetweeners this group are thinking about EV but are looking at all the pros/cons of EV's they wouldn't jump on the EV bandwagon as quickly as the  early adopters ( EV enthusiasts ) and are more likely to hedge their bets with a hybrid

3) The 3 group of customers are the die hard Petrol heads who aim to keep their petrol or diesel cars going for as long as possible and as we can see in some cases that can be 120 years

Given high interest rates EV manufacturers will find it harder too sell to customer group 2 and no chance of selling to the die hard  Petrol heads

Next Year will be interesting times in Thailand as manufacturers have already indicated they wouldn't be able to compete price wise with the cars that are produced from Chinese manufacturing plants so unless the subsidy on EV  is moved away from imported cars to locally produced EV will be much harder to sell

Bottom line The bubble has burst on the Global EV market

[Bandersnatch]

12 hours ago, vinny41 said:

The World's Top-Selling Automakers, Ranked

Toyota Motor Corp. sold 10.48 million vehicles in 2022, keeping its title as the world's top-selling automaker for a third year.

https://www.carlogos.org/reviews/worlds-top-selling-automakers.html

 

Toyota has an important warning for electric vehicle enthusiasts

Despite major investments in EVs, automakers have been sounding the alarm.

https://www.thestreet.com/electric-vehicles/toyota-has-an-important-warning-for-electric-vehicle-enthusiasts

 

Toyota like the other Japanese legacy manufacturers are very late to the EV party so they are directing their efforts to posting misinformation rather than developing and building EVs

 

Here in Thailand last month over 10% of all vehicle sales were EV and it's growing all the time

 

Full EV sales last month:

 

Chinese 6,007 
Tesla 375
Japanese 19

 

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

4 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

GM exemplifies the dilemma many carmakers face. The early adopters who bought EVs have gone home and the remaining consumers are hitting pause on EV consideration amid economic uncertainty, the lack of a widespread and reliable charging network and continued higher prices for most EVs compared with gasoline-powered counterparts,

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2023/10/27/forget-the-strike-the-real-crisis-could-be-a-lack-of-demand-for-evs/71291494007/

I am unsure of that, it could be they are waiting for new products, what is happening with BYD Seal here in Thailandcseems to suggest that.  I think that’s the case in Thailand where BYD are doing everything right.

 

I think I read EV sales in September were 15% of all new registrations.

 

The charging issue doesn’t exist in Thailand, not yet anyway. Right now it’s fantastic, but with this growth in EV sales I do worry about the future.

[JBChiangRai]

It’s also interesting that the 2 leading suppliers of EV’s have both prioritised locking down their supply chain.

 

Tesla by sourcing Lithium and its (joint?) ventures in Giga Battery Plants and BYD by making almost everything in house, even it’s own semiconductors.

 

Ford & GM and to a greater extent Honda & Toyota are so late to the party they can’t get the materials to build EV’s in any great numbers.

 

The other issue is price, Toyota’s bZ4x is almost 2M baht, BYD’s equivalent but far better equipped and superior product only costs 2/3rds of that and IIRC comes with 8 years servicing and 8 years warranty.

[JBChiangRai]

16 hours ago, vinny41 said:

GM on the same day said that it was delaying the production of its coming EV

 

GM went on to say in that announcement…

 

But this blip is only “growing pains” for the inevitable dominance of EVs in the auto industry, Caldwell said.

“The industry is moving towards EVs—to deny that would probably be unwise,” Caldwell said. “It’s what that path looks like—that’s what’s undefined and is causing more confusion.

 

[vinny41]

Tesla CEO Elon Musk said during the EV maker’s earnings call on Wednesday that he is concerned about the impact of high interest rates on would-be car buyers.

"I’m worried about the high interest rate environment that we’re in," Musk told investors. "I just can’t emphasize it enough that for the vast majority of people, buying a car is about the monthly payment. And as interest rates rise, the proportion of that monthly payment that is interest increases naturally. So if interest rates remain high, or they go even higher, it’s that much harder for people to buy the car."

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/elon-musk-says-hes-worried-about-high-interest-rate-environment-were-in

 

Finance is tight! Set a high down payment of 30-40%. Pickup truck sales fell 45% last month. Financial institutions remain strict in approving loans due to high household debt.

https://www.khaosod.co.th/special-stories/news_7930685

 

Majority of Car sales in Thailand are on credit (installments) i have been to showrooms where they will try everything under the sun to try and get you to switch from paying cash to buying on credit

In the past the minimum down payment was around 15% but if there is any leeway on the price example discounts most dealers will apply the discounts against the down payment reducing the 15% down payment down to as much as 5% 

A high down payment of between 30-40% will affect all vehicles sales but I suspect will affect EV sales more as there isn't much discounting once the subsidy has been applied to the import price

[JBChiangRai]

8 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Tesla CEO Elon Musk said during the EV maker’s earnings call on Wednesday that he is concerned about the impact of high interest rates on would-be car buyers.

"I’m worried about the high interest rate environment that we’re in," Musk told investors. "I just can’t emphasize it enough that for the vast majority of people, buying a car is about the monthly payment. And as interest rates rise, the proportion of that monthly payment that is interest increases naturally. So if interest rates remain high, or they go even higher, it’s that much harder for people to buy the car."

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/elon-musk-says-hes-worried-about-high-interest-rate-environment-were-in

 

Finance is tight! Set a high down payment of 30-40%. Pickup truck sales fell 45% last month. Financial institutions remain strict in approving loans due to high household debt.

https://www.khaosod.co.th/special-stories/news_7930685

 

Majority of Car sales in Thailand are on credit (installments) i have been to showrooms where they will try everything under the sun to try and get you to switch from paying cash to buying on credit

In the past the minimum down payment was around 15% but if there is any leeway on the price example discounts most dealers will apply the discounts against the down payment reducing the 15% down payment down to as much as 5% 

A high down payment of between 30-40% will affect all vehicles sales but I suspect will affect EV sales more as there isn't much discounting once the subsidy has been applied to the import price

I agree, I predicted when interest rates and fuel prices started rising that people would prioritise heating their homes and paying their mortgages over replacing their car with a higher finance charge.

 

People will keep their cars longer, and if they do replace them, go with a cheaper model or a secondhand model