Opinion Pleas to end the suffering in Gaza are growing louder, but neither side actually wants a ceasefire

[Social Media]

Israel’s stated war aim is to destroy Hamas; Hamas wants Israel to commit such barbarities in response to its attack that it loses international support

 

 

International calls for a ceasefire in Gaza are growing louder as the scale of destruction and humanitarian suffering visited on its population becomes ever clearer. Others, including the UN, call for at least a “humanitarian pause”. Is either likely? And could they pave the way to peace?

Ceasefires, like peace processes, only work when both belligerents are either willing or can be persuaded to accept one and stick to it. In Gaza, this looks unlikely. In Syria in 2015-16 and in Sudan this year, similar attempts have failed dismally. In Ethiopia, a ceasefire with Tigray was achieved only after the two sides had fought each other to a standstill, at the cost of tens of thousands of lives.

At this stage, both the Israeli government and Hamas probably calculate they have more to gain from a continuation of fighting.

Israel’s stated war aim is to destroy Hamas as a fighting and political force and free all the Israeli hostages. An immediate ceasefire would hinder at least the first. It would also signal that Israel accepts restraint on its retaliation, unacceptable to a government – and people – shocked by the slaughter inflicted on them by a group explicitly committed to destroying their state. Echoes of the past are too strong. For many, Israel’s very survival depends on hitting their enemies harder than they are hit. So even if a ceasefire involved the release of all Israeli hostages, it would not suffice. The implication that it would be followed by negotiations with Hamas is, for many Israelis, still beyond the pale.

Hamas’s war aim (unstated, and therefore speculative) is presumably to provoke Israel to commit such barbarities in response to its terrorist attack that it loses international support and becomes, ultimately, forced to make major concessions to the Palestinians in the form of a genuinely autonomous state. The longer the fighting continues, the more Israel’s moral case weakens. Even some Israelis recognise that their window of opportunity for retaliation is limited.

 

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[Hanaguma]

If Hamas surrenders, peace would happen in an instant.

[novacova]

3 hours ago, Social Media said:

International calls for a ceasefire in Gaza are growing louder as the scale of destruction and humanitarian suffering visited on its population becomes ever clearer.

Why weren’t they whining about this when Hamas took control of Gaza and started this mess, stealing humanitarian funds and supplies for the sole purpose to destroy Israel? 
Too late now, the hammer is being dropped and crying won’t help them and praying won’t do any good for Hamas.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 11/3/2023 at 2:32 PM, Social Media said:

Hamas’s war aim (unstated, and therefore speculative) is presumably to provoke Israel to commit such barbarities in response to its terrorist attack that it loses international support and becomes, ultimately, forced to make major concessions to the Palestinians in the form of a genuinely autonomous state. The longer the fighting continues, the more Israel’s moral case weakens. Even some Israelis recognise that their window of opportunity for retaliation is limited.

At least I can agree with that part of the OP.

IMO if that is their aim, and what proof exists of that, they are succeeding. Even if the governments of America and Britain etc are in boots and all to the israeli slaughter, their citizens have other opinions.

The longer the massacres are shown on the tvs of the world, the faster western governments will no longer be able to ignore the outrage.

 

https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/gaza-peace-activists-chain-themselves-to-u-s-ship-at-oakland-port/

 

A large demonstration calling for a ceasefire in Gaza was held at the Port of Oakland Friday as activists attempted to prevent a federal ship from leaving the port. A banner displayed at the protest read, “No US military aid to Israel.”

....................................

The crowd chanted, “Oakland Port blood on your hands,” and, “We charge you with genocide.”

[Chomper Higgot]

Protests in NY Grand Central Station.

 

Mostly Jewish protestors:

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/10/28/protesters-shut-new-yorks-grand-central-station-demanding-gaza-ceasefire

[impulse]

When an adult walks into a room where 2 kids are stabbing each other, the appropriate thing to do is stop them from stabbing each other.  Not to let one of the kids get in a few more stabs because they have it coming.  Then you sort out the justice.

 

Sadly, there aren't many adults in the big world, and anyone who suggests stopping the violence is denounced as anti-Semitic.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/04/us/washington-dc-ceasefire-protests-palestine/index.html

 

BTW, I never did care for Idi Amin, but that didn't make me a racist, or somehow hate all Ugandans...

[billd766]

On 11/4/2023 at 8:46 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

At least I can agree with that part of the OP.

IMO if that is their aim, and what proof exists of that, they are succeeding. Even if the governments of America and Britain etc are in boots and all to the israeli slaughter, their citizens have other opinions.

The longer the massacres are shown on the tvs of the world, the faster western governments will no longer be able to ignore the outrage.

 

https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/gaza-peace-activists-chain-themselves-to-u-s-ship-at-oakland-port/

 

A large demonstration calling for a ceasefire in Gaza was held at the Port of Oakland Friday as activists attempted to prevent a federal ship from leaving the port. A banner displayed at the protest read, “No US military aid to Israel.”

....................................

The crowd chanted, “Oakland Port blood on your hands,” and, “We charge you with genocide.”

 

I agree with you 100%.

 

The links below are just from the UK only.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67320715

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-67312972

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-67320630

 

These from the BBC World news.

 

https://account.bbc.com/auth?realm=%2F&clientId=Account&context=news&ptrt=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Flive%2Fworld-middle-east-67324897&userOrigin=news_gnl&isCasso=false&action=sign-in&redirectUri=https%3A%2F%2Fsession.bbc.com%2Fsession%2Fcallback%3Frealm%3D%2F&service=IdSignInService&nonce=wQOfitoR-WQzL3ZxCfv0h27R_V3iTt-96oLo

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67316463

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67321463

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67317218

 

From the link above.

 

"The US is conducting unarmed UAV flights over Gaza, as well as providing advice and assistance to support our Israeli partner as they work on their hostage recovery efforts," the Pentagon's statement on Friday said. The confirmation comes after reporters spotted MQ-9 Reapers, usually operated by American special forces, circling Gaza on Flightradar24, a publicly available flight-tracking website.

Unnamed US military officials told the New York Times that the drones were not helping co-ordinate Israeli military action in and around Gaza. Officials told the newspaper that information related to hostage recovery was being passed on to the Israelis.

These are not the only remote-controlled American military vehicles operating in the region.

 

There is more information in the link.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, impulse said:

BTW, I never did care for Idi Amin, but that didn't make me a racist, or somehow hate all Ugandans...

Had Idi been an israeli, you would likely be accused of anti semitism.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

I agree with you 100%.

 

The links below are just from the UK only.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67320715

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-67312972

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-67320630

 

These from the BBC World news.

 

https://account.bbc.com/auth?realm=%2F&clientId=Account&context=news&ptrt=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Flive%2Fworld-middle-east-67324897&userOrigin=news_gnl&isCasso=false&action=sign-in&redirectUri=https%3A%2F%2Fsession.bbc.com%2Fsession%2Fcallback%3Frealm%3D%2F&service=IdSignInService&nonce=wQOfitoR-WQzL3ZxCfv0h27R_V3iTt-96oLo

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67316463

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67321463

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67317218

 

From the link above.

 

"The US is conducting unarmed UAV flights over Gaza, as well as providing advice and assistance to support our Israeli partner as they work on their hostage recovery efforts," the Pentagon's statement on Friday said. The confirmation comes after reporters spotted MQ-9 Reapers, usually operated by American special forces, circling Gaza on Flightradar24, a publicly available flight-tracking website.

Unnamed US military officials told the New York Times that the drones were not helping co-ordinate Israeli military action in and around Gaza. Officials told the newspaper that information related to hostage recovery was being passed on to the Israelis.

These are not the only remote-controlled American military vehicles operating in the region.

 

There is more information in the link.

 

Given the israelis have their own drones permanently over Gaza, one wonders why the americans need to join in?

 

It's astounding that Blinken is talking to Abbas about taking over Gaza "after" when the PA is widely condemned by Palestinians for collaborating with the israelis. Even talking about "after" was an abomination while Palestinians were being slaughtered as Blinken spoke. Even Abbas saw it as a step too far and said that it might be considered when Palestinians have their own free state ie probably never in his lifetime.

Seems Blinken went home with nothing to show for his waste of jet fuel mission.

[thaibeachlovers]

I was somewhat puzzled as to why the Americans had to send more bombs etc to israel at the start, but I guess the plan was always to use some excuse to flatten Gaza, and israel didn't have enough to do the job.

 

While even netanyahu realised the below would be guaranteed to make israel pariah, one suspects it's a desire of more than the minister that said it. So it'll just be bombs till the americans run out of bombs to send them.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/far-right-minister-says-nuking-gaza-an-option-pm-suspends-him-from-cabinet-meetings/

Heritage Minister Amichai Eliyahu said Sunday that one of Israel’s options in the war against Hamas could be to drop a nuclear bomb on the Gaza Strip, in comments that were quickly disavowed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who also suspended the minister from cabinet meetings.

 

Meanwhile the protests around the world grow in size and in number. Are western leaders that flocked to pay homage to netanyahu going to come to regret their eagerness as the death roll of Palestinian children rises inexorably. It's been estimated that a child is killed ever 10 minutes ( as seen on Al Jazeera.

[impulse]

39 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Had Idi been an israeli, you would likely be accused of anti semitism.

Accusations of antisemitism have been tossed around at anyone who disagrees with anything Israel has ever done, like accusations of transphobia at anyone who thinks men shouldn't compete in women's sports, and accusations of racism are hurled at anyone who wants to see criminals taken off the streets.

 

It's not a valid argument as much as a way to intimidate the other side of an argument to keep their big traps shut, or they're coming for you.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

54 minutes ago, impulse said:

Accusations of antisemitism have been tossed around at anyone who disagrees with anything Israel has ever done, like accusations of transphobia at anyone who thinks men shouldn't compete in women's sports, and accusations of racism are hurled at anyone who wants to see criminals taken off the streets.

 

It's not a valid argument as much as a way to intimidate the other side of an argument to keep their big traps shut, or they're coming for you.

 

Indeed. It's an "easy" way to shut down the opposition, given people like to believe the worst in others.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Had Idi been an israeli, you would likely be accused of anti semitism.

 

You are welcome to look at my posts referring to Netanyahu. None are sympathetic, most critical.

Same goes for many other Israeli politicians.

I don't recall being called an antisemite over that.

 

Of course, with so many people on ignore, it would be interesting to know how you're aware of such things.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Given the israelis have their own drones permanently over Gaza, one wonders why the americans need to join in?

 

It's astounding that Blinken is talking to Abbas about taking over Gaza "after" when the PA is widely condemned by Palestinians for collaborating with the israelis. Even talking about "after" was an abomination while Palestinians were being slaughtered as Blinken spoke. Even Abbas saw it as a step too far and said that it might be considered when Palestinians have their own free state ie probably never in his lifetime.

Seems Blinken went home with nothing to show for his waste of jet fuel mission.

 

 

USA uses different drones - different capabilities. One would expect it also gives the USA a better handle on what the IDF is doing in Gaza, how things are on the ground in terms of Hamas control and humanitarian issues. Maybe it goes to show they do not blindly trust Israel and/or Netanyahu.

 

Not to question your 'knowledge' of Palestinian politics, or taking politicians' statement at face value - but maybe consider that Abbas is in place for a long time now. Palestinians did not make much of an effort to remove him, despite how he's perceived, and it's not like he changed his ways much either.

 

In all likelihood, the old man is secretly happy with political rivals Hamas taking a beating, and just maybe removed from the game. He just can't show it publicly as it ain't politically correct. Same goes for assuming control of the Gaza Strip. It's on so long as it can be painted as him doing it 'for the people' etc. Nothing very sincere about it. Of course, he'll use this new offer to leverage whatever he can. That's normal.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, impulse said:

Accusations of antisemitism have been tossed around at anyone who disagrees with anything Israel has ever done, like accusations of transphobia at anyone who thinks men shouldn't compete in women's sports, and accusations of racism are hurled at anyone who wants to see criminals taken off the streets.

 

It's not a valid argument as much as a way to intimidate the other side of an argument to keep their big traps shut, or they're coming for you.

 

 

A whole lot of such unwarranted accusations, for sure. But hardly at 'anyone'. That's hyperbole, and I think you know it.

It also doesn't imply all those 'disagreeing' with Israel etc. aren't.

I don't tend to blame posters of antisemitism much, save it for the obvious cases. There were more of them than 'usual' the last three weeks, some very obvious.

 

You want to complain people are overdoing it, I'll agree. You want to claim there's nothing here to see - you're wrong.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Indeed. It's an "easy" way to shut down the opposition, given people like to believe the worst in others.

 

You seem to believe the worst about nations, people, parties and whatnot you do not agree with.

It's part and parcel of your posts across many topics.

[impulse]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

A whole lot of such unwarranted accusations, for sure. But hardly at 'anyone'. That's hyperbole, and I think you know it.

It also doesn't imply all those 'disagreeing' with Israel etc. aren't.

I don't tend to blame posters of antisemitism much, save it for the obvious cases. There were more of them than 'usual' the last three weeks, some very obvious.

 

You want to complain people are overdoing it, I'll agree. You want to claim there's nothing here to see - you're wrong.

 

Not hyperbole at all.  That's what cancel culture is all about.  Going after people you don't agree with.  There's a plethora of concerts, lectures, conventions, sports and other events that have been shut down or pre-empted because someone complained about "not feeling safe".  As if someone "feeling safe" is an objective measure of legal free speech.

Of course there's some anti-semitism going on.  A lot of it.  And racism and transphobia and Islamaphobia.  But there are also a lot of legitimate questions, discussions, and legal protests (on both sides) being squelched by threatening cancellation.

 

 

[Morch]

54 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Not hyperbole at all.  That's what cancel culture is all about.  Going after people you don't agree with.  There's a plethora of concerts, lectures, conventions, sports and other events that have been shut down or pre-empted because someone complained about "not feeling safe".  As if someone "feeling safe" is an objective measure of legal free speech.

Of course there's some anti-semitism going on.  A lot of it.  And racism and transphobia and Islamaphobia.  But there are also a lot of legitimate questions, discussions, and legal protests (on both sides) being squelched by threatening cancellation.

 

 

 

Your previous comment was all encompassing - 'anyone', 'anything'.

I question the validity of that - especially with regard to the topic at hand.

 

[billd766]

6 hours ago, impulse said:

Accusations of antisemitism have been tossed around at anyone who disagrees with anything Israel has ever done, like accusations of transphobia at anyone who thinks men shouldn't compete in women's sports, and accusations of racism are hurled at anyone who wants to see criminals taken off the streets.

 

It's not a valid argument as much as a way to intimidate the other side of an argument to keep their big traps shut, or they're coming for you.

 

Yet the Palestinians are Semites too. 

[Morch]

31 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Yet the Palestinians are Semites too. 

 

Not that BS again.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, billd766 said:

Yet the Palestinians are Semites too. 

As I pointed out on this forum some years ago, but was "over ruled" by a certain poster ( still here ) that thinks it's been commandeered by the Jews to only refer to them.

In a way it's an inter tribal war between the same ethnicities, a sort of civil war.

It's a shame to see that they are still in the same "eye for an eye" culture that they had 2,000 years ago, just with better weapons.

Pity they didn't listen to Jesus with his message of forgiveness. We might all be better off if they had.

[Hanaguma]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

As I pointed out on this forum some years ago, but was "over ruled" by a certain poster ( still here ) that thinks it's been commandeered by the Jews to only refer to them.

In a way it's an inter tribal war between the same ethnicities, a sort of civil war.

It's a shame to see that they are still in the same "eye for an eye" culture that they had 2,000 years ago, just with better weapons.

Pity they didn't listen to Jesus with his message of forgiveness. We might all be better off if they had.

The difference is that one tribe has evolved, developed a democracy with rights for women and LGBT and freedoms. The other is still a medieval death cult.