UK statement to the house - net migration measures - did I hear right? Family visa financials doubled, NHS charge up 66%?

[Bday Prang]

16 minutes ago, MicroB said:

 

Much cheaper that some other parts of Europe. Anyhow, is it any of your business whether the proverbial Abdul buys Lidl or Heinz baked beans. £25k is more than enough to live in the UK. According to the government's own reasoning, you only need £18,600 as a couple to live.

 

The Home Secretary's reasoning is important, because at some point he and his department will be really scrutinized in some expensive case as to how on earth can they justify their numbers. In reality, he is conflating wives with immigrant workers, and getting mixed up in his own rhetoric, and he's hardly brain of Britain given his distinct lack of legal training while in the job of being in charge of, essentially, the police.

 

I surmise that his department will respond along the lines of he needs a number that will reduce foreign wives by 95%, and we responded to the boss. The department has released their modeling data, and indicates that they expect this to reduce family visas by tens of thousands each year. There are only 30,000 partner visas granted a year.

Immigration to the UK is out of control and needs to be sorted out, Whether it is cheaper to live in the UK than certain parts of Europe is nothing to do with that.   

I have no confidence in the current UK government and even less in a labour government, but every attempt at controlling the numbers is opposed by the lefty liberal types.  Something has to give, and if they are unable to deport the illegals turning up everyday on the small boats then other easier targets will have to be found.  For example is there really any reason why a foreign "student" needs to bring a relative or two with them? Of course not

Government ministers are moved from job to job on a regular basis, todays  minister for education could easily be tomorrows transport minister. It is not necessary for the home secretary to have specific legal training, that is what the hoards of advisors are for.

The UK could learn a lot from Thailand when it comes to immigration, I doubt 17,000 illegal immigrants here have simply vanished

[Bday Prang]

On 12/6/2023 at 12:36 PM, herfiehandbag said:

Yes absolutely. Legal immigration always has been able to be managed, and there is a valid debate about how strict the controls applied should be.

 

Illegal immigration is effectively unchecked. The staggering incompetence of those supposedly in charge of preventing it, plus the deliberate blocking by parts of the judicial and Civil Services of attempts to curb it, following their own agendas, mean that once the illegal immigrant, without any documentation, sets foot on UK soil then they are effectively free to go.  

 

We used to joke in the army that the new rifle introduced in the 1990s (SA80) should have been named for the Civil Service - because it didn't work and couldn't be fired!

 

Don't even mention the "working from home scam!

I think incompetence is only a small part of the problem, the real issue is , like you mentioned, the lefty leaning sympathisers who for some inexplicable reason seek some sort of open border policy for the UK.

And for those on here who feel the same way , consider this, You are not the primary intended target, and it would probably be a lot easier to take your foreign wives to the UK if it was not already over run. You are in effect collateral damage from a broad sweeping legislation.

A bit like getting hassle from a bank when conducting transactions  over a certain (unspecified) amount of money  in the name of money laundering, or being repeatedly searched and x-rayed at airports in the name of anti terrorism.

I won't mention the other thing except to say its not a scam , its an absolute disgrace 

[Bday Prang]

53 minutes ago, MicroB said:

 

Much cheaper that some other parts of Europe. Anyhow, is it any of your business whether the proverbial Abdul buys Lidl or Heinz baked beans. £25k is more than enough to live in the UK. According to the government's own reasoning, you only need £18,600 as a couple to live.

 

The Home Secretary's reasoning is important, because at some point he and his department will be really scrutinized in some expensive case as to how on earth can they justify their numbers. In reality, he is conflating wives with immigrant workers, and getting mixed up in his own rhetoric, and he's hardly brain of Britain given his distinct lack of legal training while in the job of being in charge of, essentially, the police.

 

I surmise that his department will respond along the lines of he needs a number that will reduce foreign wives by 95%, and we responded to the boss. The department has released their modeling data, and indicates that they expect this to reduce family visas by tens of thousands each year. There are only 30,000 partner visas granted a year.

There is a good reason why they should keep the numbers low for partner Visas.  Many immigrants have scant disregard for birth control, 30,000 today can easily become 180,000 withinin 6 years and then those 180,000 can start the process again with the next generation. It really isn't rocket science,think  of it as compound interest if you have trouble understanding the huge problem

[MicroB]

3 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

There is a good reason why they should keep the numbers low for partner Visas.  Many immigrants have scant disregard for birth control, 30,000 today can easily become 180,000 withinin 6 years and then those 180,000 can start the process again with the next generation. It really isn't rocket science,think  of it as compound interest if you have trouble understanding the huge problem

 

So 50 year old Thai ladies are getting pregnant??

 

No the reason why the law abiding groups are targeted is because they handily self deport, zero cost to the government, targets met for their knuckle dragging red wall voters. Immigration is basically a huge problem for racists.

 

UK birth rates have consistantly declined for 50 years. 2022 saw a 3% decline in live births compared to 2021. We are living longer, but that extended life is more years in poor health. Global rates are tumbling.

 

Its not a huge problem as you surmise, and I have a strong grasp of numbers as a Doctor.

 

On average, a woman gives birth now to 1-2 babies in a lifetime. 30,000 wives, assuming all are of child bearing  age,  will produce 47000 children, not the 180,000. You might know compound interest, but you are clueless about biology.

 

An extreme consequence of a declined birthrate, which you want, is Communist China. The 1-child policy is expected to result in the Chinese poulation going into permanent decline. That means that GDP will decline, as there are less workers, infrastructure will crumble as there are less workers etc. But that's the future you might want for the UK.

[MicroB]

4 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

 Life is not fair , There are always  regulations to be complied with,   those who want to live here need to meet certain financial requirements and

I doubt very much there are many Thais out there on a similar forum crying on behalf of foreigners who don't meet the financial requirements to live here.   

In the scenario that I commented on, the guy in question was born in 1947, he is nearly 80 years old, and we can assume his "childhood sweetheart" is of a similar age, it would be astonishing if they both did not become an elderly burden on the state very soon. He may well have contributed to the Uk's crumbling health system but his childhood Pakistani sweetheart, like many wannabe immigrants, has not

 

 

 

 

Actually, under current rule, she will. Its called the NHS surcharge, £1000 a year

 

53% of the British population take out more from the system that give. Some of those I would charitably call feckless, and mostly not immigrants.

 

Here's another scenario to get your lips around

 

Harry considers himself a Brit, he has the tats to prove, He had his Ancestry.com DNA done, and it tells him he's 10% Gypsy, which makes him part Indian, but he ignores that as it must be a mistake, as he's pure English. He's quite clever. Did 6th Form and all. He then got a job on the rigs, and spends the next 40 years grafting in hell holes like Saudi, Nigeria, Iran, before they went bad. Earnt danger money in Iraq. Spent a bit of time in Thailand and other places, bird in each port. Even gets married to one. He hits 65, has a bit of a cough from smoking all those fags. An Arab doctor tells him he's got lung cancer. Spends a wedge on alternative therapies. Nothing works. So he goes back to Ingerland, and buys a caravan to live in. 2 weeks later he's admitted to the NHS. They will happily treat him as he has a UK address, and he has a fighting chance.

 

How much has he contributed to the NHS? 2 years NI credits from when he was in 6th Form. Some would call him a parasite

 

[MicroB]

4 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

Immigration to the UK is out of control and needs to be sorted out, Whether it is cheaper to live in the UK than certain parts of Europe is nothing to do with that.   

I have no confidence in the current UK government and even less in a labour government, but every attempt at controlling the numbers is opposed by the lefty liberal types.  Something has to give, and if they are unable to deport the illegals turning up everyday on the small boats then other easier targets will have to be found.  For example is there really any reason why a foreign "student" needs to bring a relative or two with them? Of course not

Government ministers are moved from job to job on a regular basis, todays  minister for education could easily be tomorrows transport minister. It is not necessary for the home secretary to have specific legal training, that is what the hoards of advisors are for.

The UK could learn a lot from Thailand when it comes to immigration, I doubt 17,000 illegal immigrants here have simply vanished

 

 

Thailand is home to 1 million illegal immigrants, mostly Burmese. Or maybe its 500,000 or 5 million. They have no idea.

[GinBoy2]

I'm an American so have no skin in your domestic UK drama.

 

But, when me and my Thai wife wife decided that a move to the US was appropriate for us it went pretty smoothly

 

Obviously neither of us has US employment, but I could use assets, which to use the official phrase where 'liquidable' to make the threshold of 2x poverty level around $20K as I recall.

 

I'd say while the US has a real immigration problem, we kinda manage family immigration somewhat better, and forget Trump, we deal with it rather well.

 

So I feel for you guys, this is a scary time, where if you are considering taking your family back to the UK, it 'why didn't I do it sooner' I'm sure is in your head right now

[Bday Prang]

7 hours ago, MicroB said:

No the reason why the law abiding groups are targeted is because they handily self deport, zero cost to the government, targets met for their knuckle dragging red wall voters. Immigration is basically a huge problem for racists.

Well you have certainly shown your credentials, referring to anybody with concerns regarding the excessive  immigration as "knuckle draggers" and "racists"   You people cannot discuss anything in a civilised manner and immediately resort to the same tired old insults in an attempt to end any  constructive discussion 

 

[CartagenaWarlock]

On 12/4/2023 at 12:46 PM, theblether said:

In effect, it will shut down spousal immigration.

Not going to shut down the immigration of skilled workers from India. It is going to only shut down low-income immigrants from bringing their spouses, and they will double down on bringing them illegally. 

[beautifulthailand99]

12 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

Sounds like a top guy to me, what's your problem?  

His time inside was for kiddy fiddling I believe apart from the fact he paid sod all and took as much as he could from the state.

[CartagenaWarlock]

7 hours ago, MicroB said:

That means that GDP will decline, as there are less workers, infrastructure will crumble as there are less workers etc. But that's the future you might want for the UK.

GDP depends on productivity, not the number of workers. When machines take over, less population is not an issue. A smaller population will also require less infrastructure. The issue is maintaining a stable population so that a group does not vanish in the future. 

[Bday Prang]

2 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

His time inside was for kiddy fiddling I believe apart from the fact he paid sod all and took as much as he could from the state.

You have just made that up, why did you not mention it in your original character assassination of this guy, To be honest I doubt the guy in question actually exists.

[Bday Prang]

9 hours ago, MicroB said:

 

Actually, under current rule, she will. Its called the NHS surcharge, £1000 a year

 

53% of the British population take out more from the system that give. Some of those I would charitably call feckless, and mostly not immigrants.

 

Here's another scenario to get your lips around

 

Harry considers himself a Brit, he has the tats to prove, He had his Ancestry.com DNA done, and it tells him he's 10% Gypsy, which makes him part Indian, but he ignores that as it must be a mistake, as he's pure English. He's quite clever. Did 6th Form and all. He then got a job on the rigs, and spends the next 40 years grafting in hell holes like Saudi, Nigeria, Iran, before they went bad. Earnt danger money in Iraq. Spent a bit of time in Thailand and other places, bird in each port. Even gets married to one. He hits 65, has a bit of a cough from smoking all those fags. An Arab doctor tells him he's got lung cancer. Spends a wedge on alternative therapies. Nothing works. So he goes back to Ingerland, and buys a caravan to live in. 2 weeks later he's admitted to the NHS. They will happily treat him as he has a UK address, and he has a fighting chance.

 

How much has he contributed to the NHS? 2 years NI credits from when he was in 6th Form. Some would call him a parasite

 

There are plenty of people who take more from the system than they pay in  The NHS has managed to cope with this for years,  One reason for this is people like myself who have paid in for over 40 years yet have taken nothing from the system,  To expect the NHS to take care of every sick illegal immigrant is patently unrealistic.  There are just too many coming both legal and illegal and it needs to be stopped, one does not need to be a genius to realise that. But as usual the moment the useless government actually makes moves to achieve this, people like you, "the open borders brigade start whinging".  How many of these foreign scroungers would you personally be prepared to sponsor?   Hmmm thought as much

 

[beautifulthailand99]

14 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

You have just made that up, why did you not mention it in your original character assassination of this guy, To be honest I doubt the guy in question actually exists.

He did/does and it's the gospel truth. I only found that out later as well - mildly underage girls rather than very young kids. Whatever he was a nasty piece of work and had a kid with a bar girl in Thailand but I believe after he did his time for this offence he couldn't travel here anymore.

[Bday Prang]

8 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

He did/does and it's the gospel truth. I only found that out later as well - mildly underage girls rather than very young kids. Whatever he was a nasty piece of work and had a kid with a bar girl in Thailand but I believe after he did his time for this offence he couldn't travel here anymore.

Unless the UK authorities banned him from leaving the country I doubt he would have any problems coming here. There are no criminal record checks for most visas or visa exempt entries.

 

[beautifulthailand99]

2 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

Unless the UK authorities banned him from leaving the country I doubt he would have any problems coming here. There are no criminal record checks for most visas or visa exempt entries.

 

It was a long time ago and most of my information was gained second-hand and he wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer - maybe he went here without informing the authorities and got slapped down - I honestly don't know.

 

https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/advice/sex-offender-registration-information

[Nick Carter icp]

13 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

There is a good reason why they should keep the numbers low for partner Visas.  Many immigrants have scant disregard for birth control, 30,000 today can easily become 180,000 withinin 6 years and then those 180,000 can start the process again with the next generation. It really isn't rocket science,think  of it as compound interest if you have trouble understanding the huge problem

 

   A big problem that Countries face today is a falling birth rate and a declining population , the U.K needs people who will reproduce 

[Bday Prang]

3 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   A big problem that Countries face today is a falling birth rate and a declining population , the U.K needs people who will reproduce 

That may well be the case, but I see no reason why the UK cannot be a bit more selective as to who they allow in.   It's not like there is any shortage of applicants.  There is little to be gained from allowing just anybody to enter. For example  too many followers of the "religion of peace" most of whom hate us, have already had a negative affect.   The authorities are again warning of possible terror attacks, in response to the situation in Gaza, it really is not difficult to see the problems we are letting ourselves in for. However  I await the expected accusations of islamophobia and racism from the usual suspects 

[brewsterbudgen]

2 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

That may well be the case, but I see no reason why the UK cannot be a bit more selective as to who they allow in.   It's not like there is any shortage of applicants.  There is little to be gained from allowing just anybody to enter. For example  too many followers of the "religion of peace" most of whom hate us, have already had a negative affect.   The authorities are again warning of possible terror attacks, in response to the situation in Gaza, it really is not difficult to see the problems we are letting ourselves in for. However  I await the expected accusations of islamophobia and racism from the usual suspects 

It didn't take long!  

[Nick Carter icp]

2 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

That may well be the case, but I see no reason why the UK cannot be a bit more selective as to who they allow in.   It's not like there is any shortage of applicants.  There is little to be gained from allowing just anybody to enter. For example  too many followers of the "religion of peace" most of whom hate us, have already had a negative affect.   The authorities are again warning of possible terror attacks, in response to the situation in Gaza, it really is not difficult to see the problems we are letting ourselves in for. However  I await the expected accusations of islamophobia and racism from the usual suspects 

 

   Many/Most of the recent immigrants came from Ukraine and Hong Kong and they wouldn't have been Muslims 

[Bday Prang]

6 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Many/Most of the recent immigrants came from Ukraine and Hong Kong and they wouldn't have been Muslims 

glad to hear it,

[Bday Prang]

13 hours ago, MicroB said:

 

So 50 year old Thai ladies are getting pregnant??

 

No the reason why the law abiding groups are targeted is because they handily self deport, zero cost to the government, targets met for their knuckle dragging red wall voters. Immigration is basically a huge problem for racists.

 

UK birth rates have consistantly declined for 50 years. 2022 saw a 3% decline in live births compared to 2021. We are living longer, but that extended life is more years in poor health. Global rates are tumbling.

 

Its not a huge problem as you surmise, and I have a strong grasp of numbers as a Doctor.

 

On average, a woman gives birth now to 1-2 babies in a lifetime. 30,000 wives, assuming all are of child bearing  age,  will produce 47000 children, not the 180,000. You might know compound interest, but you are clueless about biology.

 

An extreme consequence of a declined birthrate, which you want, is Communist China. The 1-child policy is expected to result in the Chinese poulation going into permanent decline. That means that GDP will decline, as there are less workers, infrastructure will crumble as there are less workers etc. But that's the future you might want for the UK.

"A Doctor" really???  That's a new one, I normally only meet ex special forces and merchant bankers, Who do you think you are kidding? What sort of doctor or any other professional refers to those with whom they disagree as "knuckle draggers"   

  

[youreavinalaff]

On 12/5/2023 at 12:58 PM, MicroB said:

 

For the moment. Does exemption extend to nursing agencies? ie a lot of people working in hospitals are contractors.

It's actually "Health Care" that is exempt.

[howerde]

here is a snap shot of which countries most immigrants to ul came from

In the YE June 2023, the top five non-EU nationalities for immigration flows into the UK were: Indian (253,000), Nigerian (141,000), Chinese (89,000), Pakistani (55,000) and Ukrainian (35,000).

Taken from here  https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/longterminternationalmigrationprovisional/yearendingjune2023#:~:text=1.-,Main points,) and British (84%2C000).

[youreavinalaff]

6 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

There are plenty of people who take more from the system than they pay in  The NHS has managed to cope with this for years,  One reason for this is people like myself who have paid in for over 40 years yet have taken nothing from the system,  To expect the NHS to take care of every sick illegal immigrant is patently unrealistic.  There are just too many coming both legal and illegal and it needs to be stopped, one does not need to be a genius to realise that. But as usual the moment the useless government actually makes moves to achieve this, people like you, "the open borders brigade start whinging".  How many of these foreign scroungers would you personally be prepared to sponsor?   Hmmm thought as much

 

By percentage, how much of your NI payments do you think went directly to NHS?

 

My wife, if she passes the ludicrous Lif in UK test, will be able to apply for ILR in December next year. She will be exempt from paying NHS surcharge.

 

However, since being in the UK, her payments have been in excess of £2500 across 5 years. That is £2500 directly to NHS. She also pays NI and Tax on her salary.

 

New applicants will be paying £5000 in 5 years. Again, this figure is money directly to the NHS.

 

I'm not sure on the figures but, I would doubt many people pay that much directly into NHS in many many more years of paying NI.

[Bday Prang]

11 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

By percentage, how much of your NI payments do you think went directly to NHS?

 

My wife, if she passes the ludicrous Lif in UK test, will be able to apply for ILR in December next year. She will be exempt from paying NHS surcharge.

 

However, since being in the UK, her payments have been in excess of £2500 across 5 years. That is £2500 directly to NHS. She also pays NI and Tax on her salary.

 

New applicants will be paying £5000 in 5 years. Again, this figure is money directly to the NHS.

 

I'm not sure on the figures but, I would doubt many people pay that much directly into NHS in many many more years of paying NI.

I saw a news report in the UK a few months ago, In which it was claimed that government spending on the NHS exceeds the total amount of money taken every year from both tax and NI,  I honestly don't know how true that is but it sounds plausible to me.  Obviously a lot of this is due to the total mismanagement of the health service. 

However if the UK gov had managed to address the problem of the obscene amount of illegals entering the country, none of whom are required to pay a penny, and in many cases are able to queue jump. It would not be necessary to charge the foreign wives of UK nationals such ridiculous amounts of money for a service they may never require

I have no idea how much I personally have contributed to the NHS in over 40 years of paying tax, but as I have not set foot in a hospital or even a doctors surgery in over 40 years i think I am pretty much in credit

A good friend of mine took his wife and her kid to the UK 20 years ago, As soon as she was able she started work at a local mushroom farm and worked there paying tax and NI  until it closed down last year. She is now 60+ and suffering from a bad back it is unlikely she will work again. their recent attempts at claiming any form of benefit have been denied, seem very unfair to me. Although apparently when she reaches the required age she will be entitled to a state pension.   The whole system is a mess, the removal of illegals  who are not allowed to work and live off state benefits may not solve the problem but it would not make matters any worse would it?  

[MicroB]

2 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

"A Doctor" really???  That's a new one, I normally only meet ex special forces and merchant bankers, Who do you think you are kidding? What sort of doctor or any other professional refers to those with whom they disagree as "knuckle draggers"   

  

 

Yes, I qualified in 1995. Yeah, and for a while, during the GWOT, I was working with special forces, and now I work with merchant bankers.

 

I didn't call you a knuckle dragger. At the last GE, my vote went the same way as those Red Wall Knuckle Draggers. So you are not a professional, when you referred to "Lefty Liberal types".

 

The government is falling apart with the latest revelations about the hudden payments for Rwanda. They could have made more targetted efforts to address immigrants, such as putting a cap on student visas (can't do that, as they bring in money, in the form of overseas students fees, which effectively subsidises the UK R&D sector, important, as we now have less access to EU structural funds), or increasing the salary to beyond £40-50k (can't do that as many London-based financial firms are dependant on sponsorship of overseas IT professionals). So they looked at the soft targets, which usefully appeals to an element of their base. The risk is they might alienate their real core, the centre, and find themselves in the same place as the GOP.

 

Everyone wants to stop the boats. The policies announced will not affect that, except through generating more revenue to pay the black shirted border force. The way to do that is not to militarise the British coastline (you can put all the financial penalties, concentration camps etc in place, people will still try), ie close the beaches, traps out at sea. The sensible way, the true conservative way, is to address the source, and possibly practice some old fashioned imperialism. The Pound goes much further outside the UK, than in. Internal security merely increases the number of contractors on £1000 a day.

 

The reasons why refugees are suddenly (figuratively) washing up in the UK s not because suddenly Britain has become a much nicer place to live (its not). But suddenly, there are parts of the world which have become much much worse places to live. Some of that is climate driven; we've been warning the world for the last 40 years that changing climate in subsaharan Africa will drive migration northwards, for the same reason our ancestors left Africa in the first place. We've sent quarter of a billion pounds to Rwanda, with another £50m to come, with nothing to show for it. And the agreement allows Rwanda to send refugees to the UK, with no ceiling. You think those Red Wall voters know about that?

 

On top of that are man-made stresses, though some of those are related to climate change causing societal stress (weak governance etc). History is somewhat of a continuum of inter-related events. Many events now can be traced back to the 2008 crash. The 2008 crash causes can be pointed to events 20-30 years earlier etc.

[MicroB]

3 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Many/Most of the recent immigrants came from Ukraine and Hong Kong and they wouldn't have been Muslims 

 

Some might be. There is a significant minority of Muslims from the Crimea region. In addition, Hong Kong people aren't all Chinese. There are significant numbers of people who are Indian and Malay diaspore. It was an issue during the handover to China, as many became Stateless, since Chinese citizenship is based on ethnicity.

 

It shouldn't make any difference what one's faith is or is not.

Edited December 8, 2023 by MicroB

[MicroB]

7 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

Unless the UK authorities banned him from leaving the country I doubt he would have any problems coming here. There are no criminal record checks for most visas or visa exempt entries.

 

 

A little remembered fact; passports, in the modern sense, were issued in WW1 to give permission to people to leave the country. Passports weren't given to people who might been considered vital to the war effort, eg scientists, engineers.

[MicroB]

44 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

The whole system is a mess, the removal of illegals  who are not allowed to work and live off state benefits may not solve the problem but it would not make matters any worse would it?  

 

One would not argue against removal of "illegals". Nothing in the recent policy announcements will significantly address that. The only impact will be the reduction in legal immigration.

 

Illegals, by definition, are not a drag on the state until they become discovered, then their status changes. Illegals get zero state benefits. A refugee might, but some consider that all refugees are illegal.

 

Actually some of the plans suggested might make things worse. It might make things worse if a place where you have your favourite country walk is suddenly a fenced camp with watchtowers (the former Home Secretary is calling for that). Or if parts of the country become new transit centres for the fleets of ex-Thai A380s to load up enroute for Africa. Or, as part of the deal, Britain now starts receiving A380s full of refugees from Rwanda, without a cap. Some suggestions are that each illegal removed will cost the UK taxpayer £1 million. So we are looking at costs of £80bn a year, although, these costs might decline, if, as you suppose, this becomes a deterrance to anyone on the other side of the world who is a regular Telegraph reader (how does someone like that even know of changes in UK policy).